Author Topic: T-Bird (Read 4249 times)

Richard Becker · « **on:** May 17, 2006, 06:15:47 AM »

I am really pleased to have found this site with so much information and activity! It seems that a lot of us, shall we say "older", folk are coming back to the hobby. After 30 odd years I have assembled (I wont say built) an ARF Nobler and it flies just as I remember my old Green Box job of yore - what a pleasure!

Another bird I loved was the Veco kit of Bob Palmer's Thunder Bird, the one with differential flaps and wires coming out one above the other at the tip. I see that RSM have a T-Bird kit, but I don't see any comments on it in any forum. Was it that bad or is it just that it has been forgotten?

I intend to build a real kit now, not an ARF, and will probably go for one of the larger ships with 50/60 size motor, but long for the old T-bird - any suggestions?

Remember, it's never too late to have a happy childhood

Leester · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2006, 08:54:51 AM »

The RSM kit The T'Bird II is an excellent kit. Very light wood and all lazer cut. All hardware is top grade stuff. This is pretty much a plans build although there is a building guide on the web site www.rsmdistribution.com it is pretty much a general order of construction. Well worth the money compared to more expensive kits.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #2 on:** May 17, 2006, 11:24:20 AM »

Richard,

I came back into the C/L flying group about 10 years ago after a 23 year lay off. I too have one of the RSM T-Bird II's, except mine is an older one and not lazer cut. I'm retiring myself from civil service and moving from central Virginia to the Anniston Alabama area where I'll be teaming up with my old buddies Tom Morris and Hoyt Hawkins for some plane building and flying. The county is building a flying feild something like Waymer in Huntersville, NC but I don't think there will be an R/C runway there. I won't be able to start on mine until I get the Excelsior, Twister and Skylark finished. I'm sure they will take me the rest of the summer after moving.

Jim Pollock, counting the days until the resettlement in the "actual" south!

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #3 on:** May 17, 2006, 04:19:08 PM »

The Veco Thunderbird isn't available anymore. The RSM kit of the Thunderbird II is a smaller, different model. The Veco is/was 610 square inches, I think the RSM is 590? The Brodak kit is the earlier upright version of the Thunderbird, again smaller.

The last true copy of the 610" Veco Thunderbird that I know of was kitted by Aero Engineering. They were available in the last ten - fifteen years or so, but I really can't recommend them. The Aero Engineering Veco kits were stamped with the old Veco dies, and the wood looks about 40 years old. The plywood falls apart in your hands, the hardware is questionable at best, etc. However they are authentic. The kit I picked up in about 1994 matches the hand me down Thunderbird that we've had hanging in the shop since the late 80's.

The Veco kit plans also don't show the ribs fullsize. However they do show diagrams of the die cut sheets that I read somewhere are exactly 1/2 size, but I haven't verified it myself.

The RSM kit is amazing. I've got one on the shelf. But it's just not the same. The Veco kit is simple enough a fairly novice builder could put it together. The RSM requires some skill. It's more along the lines of a scratch built project with good wood and some of the rough cutting done.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #4 on:** May 18, 2006, 06:21:07 PM »

Hate to dispute someones word, but, I had Meriwether's old T-Bird II for a while. I also have the RSM pre laser kit. John Bender flew his version of the original T-Bird in Iowa. There was a T-Bird II there that they were making comparisions. But, you might contact Eric at RSM to see if he did downsize it. I don't beleive he did. DOC Holliday

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #5 on:** May 18, 2006, 06:53:04 PM »

If you put a Veco T-bird over the RSM plans, the Veco T-bird is MUCH larger. I've had the RSM kit for several years and I haven't touched it. I bought it thinking it was the same as the Veco but its a different variation of the T-bird. Also if you compare the ribs, the Veco T-bird has a much thicker wing.

Maybe if I get a chance I can roll out the plans and take a snapshot... But I'm not sure if the plans are here or in Salina. Hmm...

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2006, 09:57:45 AM »

Follow-up... I don't have the RSM kit here to compare. It's already in Salina. But what I do have are the Aero Engineering plans, and the remains of an authentic kit-built Veco Thunderbird that my uncle put together, along with the RSM website. Again, I built the Aero Engineering kit, and its an exact clone of the built T-bird in every way. Right down to how the parts don't fit right because the die cutting was off.

The specs on the Veco/Dumas/Aero Engineering Tbird are as follows.
Wing Span: 56" Wing Area: 610 sq. in. Length: 38"

The specs on the RSM Tbird from the website http://www.rsmdistribution.com/kits/kit-thunderbird-ii.htm are as follows.
Wing Span: 56" Area: 570 sq. in. Length: 39"

Also if you review the RSM website, it never states anywhere that the kit they offer is the same as the Veco kit. It's the same situation as we have with the Nobler. There are countless versions of the Nobler being kitted, published, arf'd, etc and no two are the same. The RSM kit may very well be more authentic to Palmers design, but the fact remains that it's not the same plane as the Veco/Dumas/Aero Engineering kit. I'd check with Eric, except out of the five times I've tried calling RSM, four times I've gotten an answering machine, and the three emails I've sent haven't been replied to. The one time I did get through was to order the kit nearly 10 years ago.

It would really be nice if I didn't have to back up every statement I make with another resource. A little debate is healthy, but it's getting to the point where it's easier to just not contribute.

3rd edit: removed close-up of specs. I didn't think they'd be legible on the larger plan shot.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2006, 11:28:30 AM »

Andrew,

I don't doubt for one minute that the Veco Kit is different than the RSM Kit. I think though, if you took the RSM plane to the AMA Museum and pulled down the Black and Orange one that Bob flew in the 1960 WC's they would match very close. I have never built two airplanes identical to each other even when I try. So, I guess any of them would be O.K. At least Bob signed the plans for the RSM Kit, he didn't for the Veco kit.

Jim Pollock

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2006, 11:52:50 AM »

I agree completely, the RSM kit is supposed to be faithful to the Thunderbird as Palmer designed it in 1959. It is likely a more accurate representation to Bob's actual plane then the Veco kit, just as the Brodak Nobler may be closer to George's plane then the MAN plans or the TF kit. However, when a person is searching for the nostalgia of a design they built long ago or in my case that relatives built long ago and they want to build an accurate representation, the RSM kit can be a real disappointment.

If you read the first post and what he was looking for... The T-bird with differential flaps, and over-under leadouts, it's clear that he remembers features of the Veco/Dumas kit that aren't incorporated in the current RSM kit.

That's not to say that the RSM kit isn't an excellent kit, but for me anyway I was disappointed because its not what I was hoping it would be.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2006, 12:55:40 PM »

Andrew,

There was a set of drawings in a Stunt News some time back, about 1999 I think, that showed how to make adjustable over/under leadouts. When I build mine, I plan to incorporate that into it. And yeah, I had a Veco T-Bird II back in 1969 that I won a couple of contest with. I have some nostalgia for the Veco version also, but I think that the RSM kit is probably the better version of the two.

Jim Pollock

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2006, 03:12:05 PM »

The size of the wing is the killer... The Veco version would be right at home with a ST 46. While the RSM version is just a hair too small for the Tigre, and just a hair larger then I'd be comfortable with using a Fox 35. At the time I didn't have another engine I enjoyed running. Now if I ever get around to it I'll likely use a Max-S 35. I'd still be more inclined to build the larger wing version though since the ST 46 is a more user friendly engine.

Either way I am not sure the differential flaps are really a good idea. I'd probably stick to a standard control system.

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2006, 10:36:07 AM »

Bob told me to stay away from differential flaps, and to keep them both the same size.
My RSM version is going to be pulled around by a OS LA .46. The Max-S .35 I had in my old Veco version was a sweetheart performer. Good power, easy starting and used exactly 4 ounces of fuel for 6.5 minutes of run time. Of course the good old Rev-Up 10-6 EW's helped too.

Jim Pollock

Tom Dugan · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2006, 07:50:42 PM »

In the event any of you are interested there is a Veco Thunderbird for bid on eBay now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VECO-Thunder-Bird-by-BOB-Palmer-Control-Line-NIB_W0QQitemZ6060607023QQcategoryZ34054QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #13 on:** May 24, 2006, 12:42:13 PM »

$122.50 and it still has 5 days left to go...

From the pic of the kit with the box open you can see that one of the ply formers has been punched out already. Who knows what else has been tampered with. For that kind of money who could possibly afford to build it from the kit? If they did, how well could it possibly come out?

Jim Pollock · « **Reply #14 on:** May 31, 2006, 08:13:53 AM »

Andrew,

Who bought the overpriced T-Bird kit on Evil Bay??

Jim Pollock

Andrew Hathaway · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2006, 08:34:52 AM »

It wasn't me... but at $170 I almost feel bad about building (partially) the Aero Engineering Thunderbird kit I had. The kit pieces fit so poorly the wing ended up warped, just like the built one we've got hanging in the shop. I wonder if the $170 demand was because it was a vintage kit, or if someone wanted that version of the Thunderbird?

Bill Little · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2006, 10:09:49 AM »

Hi Andrew,

I would say the price the VECO kit brought was just due to "collector" value of the originals. The Dumas and later Aero kits do not generally bring the price of the VECO.

As Mr. PAlmer told me one year at Brodak's, VECO made changes to all his designs for manufacturing purposes. Having researched the T-Bird, along with a few friends around the globe through the internet, Bob had probably (at least) 4 T-Bird IIs. Or as VECO called it the "New" Thunderbird.

There was his '59 NATS winner, his '60 WC plane, a "round nose" T-bird, a tricycle gear.........

So the "debate" as to which one is "best" just comes down to which one you like. There were slight chamges to each one. Mark Gerber has some handwritten correspondence from the late MR. Palmer describing his changes.

As for a ST 46 being too much engine, it would only be so if the balance could not be easily worked out along with getting clearance fpr the right prop. Mark flys his "'59 clone" with the ST 46 and it's a very nice combination.

I love the Thunderbird. Even the first "upright version"!

Bill <><

Jacqui Richards · « **Reply #17 on:** June 03, 2006, 03:11:49 PM »

My Henry Engineering Veco Kit (upright engine) says its kit C-11 and has a wing area of 597 squares and a wing span of 54 1/2 inches. Engine sizes are 29 to 35. I don't know where 610 square inches came from. This is a Thunderbird kit from 1956.

Marvin Denny · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2006, 07:03:36 PM »

The 610 square inch area T-Bird is the "New Thunderbird" by Veco. It has a 56 inch span, inverted engine, differental flaps, and a "P-51" bubble type canopy.

Bigiron