need recommendations

[rich gorrill]

Hi everyone, after a 35 year lapse I entered the world of control line flying again this winter. I built a flite streak with an o.s. max 25fp, rc engine converted to control line. I have about 20 flights on the streak and now it's time to move up. Please help with my next choice. I'd like to go with a larger ship with flaps. I have 3 engines to pick from, the max 25, a max35 fp, and the old standard fox 35.  I was thinking a Sig Banshee or the Twister. I'd like to stick with a profile fuselage. I know their are a lot of ships out there to choose from but after being away from the hobby for so long it's very confusing. 

On another note, how do I know when to go to longer lines. I fly the streak on 60 footers. How big does the plane have to be before i go to 65 or 70 foot lines?

Thanks in advance, Rich

[Dave_Trible]

Hi Rich.  There are many good choices and opinions but it hard to beat the Magician for where you are in your flying.  Brodak now makes a kit of it.  Either your .35FP or the Fox will work well.  Don't worry about longer lines until you move up to .46 size or larger.

Dave

[Clancy Arnold]

Rich
I had an article published in the January 2012 CL World magazine Titled "SIG Banshee Modifications."  It even included a copy of the factory drawing that Jack Sheeks marked up for my first Banshee(k) build.  
Clancy

[Randy Cuberly]

Hi Rich,
While I think Dave's suggestion is a good one, I would reccommend a Pathfinder profile.
This would be an excellent choice with the FP35 and could easily carry you into the Advanced class.
The Pathfinder is an excellent flying profile and really gives up very little in performance to the larger serious competition airplanes.
It's available from Brodak in both ARF and kit form.

In reality there are a lot of choices but it would really be hard to beat that one.

Randy Cuberly

[Bill Little]

Hi Rich,

I think you already have a great idea picked out in the Twister.  It is a plane that serves excellently as a more advanced trainer and if you are looking towards some competition, it will take you at least to the Advanced class.  It is a pretty simple build right out of the box and needs no modification as is.  Some will say that making a "Fancherized" Twister is the way to go, but isn't necessary at your level.

Fox. 35 is what the model was designed around and the OS Max .35FP will also work.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Helmick]

Twister. "Fancherized" if you are up to a bit more building, but I 'spect stock would work quite nicely. I'd go with the .35FP.  Steve

[Bob Whitely]

Build the Fancher Twister. Just as easy to build and will fly a lot easier and
better. I would use the OS35 as it will run a little smoother and is easier to get
more consistant runs than the Fox.  Keep at it and ask away, any of us will answer
any other questions  or help or whatever.  RJ

[Tim Wescott]

It may actually be easier to "Fancherize" a Banshee -- the Banshee is about as long in the nose (for a muffled Schnuerle motor as opposed to an unmuffled Fox) as it is short in the tail, so you don't need a new fuselage -- just whack out the wing hole and patch it in behind.

OTOH, there are "official" plans for the Fancherized Twister, which is what I used for mine.

[rich gorrill]

Thanks for all the input guys. I have some time before I start this next build, so please keep the idea's coming. I have seen the thread about the "francherized twister" It looks pretty good.    Does the Magician perform as well without flaps as the other planes listed, or should flaps be added? I thought flaps were needed for smooth loops and square loop's.

[Dave_Trible]

Rich I've had a couple regular .35 size and two scaled down (.25 size) and one .15 sized Magicians in my time.  I had working flaps on all of them.  I wouldn't do it any other way.  You really don't get the rotation for good square corners without the flaps on this and most other designs.

Dave

[rich gorrill]

Thanks Dave, I thought adding flaps to the magician was the way to go.  I'm looking for an easy build right out of the box. The Francherized twister seems like a lot of extra work. Adding flaps is a pretty easy add on.

[Dave_Trible]

These were all good suggestions.  I'm partial to my roots and this machine sort of IS my roots in putting the pattern together.  A bonus is that it's classic legal should you want to get into that at some point.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

All are good suggestions for recommendations.   But, if you like War Birds you can't go wrong with the Brodak kits.   To me all the kits are great for building and flying.   Don't forget to check out RSM Dist. and his listing of kits.   

[Dan Bregar]

Rich

If you decide on the Magician, remember that the Brodak kit is just barely 400 sq. in., and it is well suited for your 25FP engine. Keep it as light as possible for the rather thin wing to operate effectively.  This airplane was my choice when I came back to control line after a 34 year vacation. Mine took me to the Nats last year for a win in Beginner Open Stunt. There are probably better choices like the Pathfinder which I'm flying now, but for learning the beginner pattern the Magician will do the job nicely. 

[Brian Massey]

Welcome back Rich!

The Magician or Twister are both excellent choices for what you describe. You will love either, and they will perform well with your engine selection. Your 60 foot lines should be a good choice for them too. I think the Pathfinder might be a bit underpowered with your engines, but an LA 46 would be great on it.

Have fun, and like everyone says, ask away.

Brian

[rich gorrill]

Dan, did you add flaps to your magician? If not could you tell me why. I have seen pictures of other magicians and it seems they all had flap's. Are they optional with the Brodak kit? I know years ago I built a Midwest P-51 Mustang and the wing flaps were optional.

[Dan Bregar]

Rich

I did not add flaps.  The reason ?  In all my years of flying C/L I never had a flapped airplane, so when I came back to C/L flying 2 yrs. ago, I went with the Magician cause I flew them in the early 60's without flaps. However, when I decided I wanted to try to become "a stunt flyer" and learn the pattern and fly in contests, I saw that my airplane was somewhat lacking in the square loop department, and I attribute that to the lack of moveable flaps. But for the beginner pattern, if kept light, it is pretty capable, even without moveable flaps.  If I knew then what I know now, I probably would have gone with a flapped airplane like the Cardinal or Pathfinder.  I am now flying the Pathfinder, and it is a larger airplane with flaps that does squares better than my Magician.  And to answer your question about flaps being optional with the Brodak kit, they don't show them on the plans, but you could certainly install them without much trouble.  The Brodak "original Magician" kit is smaller than the old Midwest Magician kit, and a good .25 engine is plenty of power for it. Light weight is the key for good flying with it, as is with most designs, but you only have a bit over 400 sq. in. on this one, so an ounce or two can make a difference on this airplane. You can see a picture of my Magician in the All amped up forum. Go to the "list your set up" thread, and post #100 at the top of page 3 is it.  Best of luck to you, whichever way you choose to go.  I'm sure you will have fun. 

[Dave_Trible]

Rich, after reading Dan 's post I looked up Brodaks Magician kit and it sure is smaller.  This is about the size of my shrunk-down .25 sized ones which flew great.  If you would like I have plans to the full size Midwest kit that I'll copy and send to you if you'd like.  The full size airplane has a 48" wing span.

Dave

[john e. holliday]

I still have my version of the Brodak Original Magician with Brodak .25 for power.  With Top Flite Power Point 10 - 4 is one of the best flying planes I have next to my Primary Force which is also .25 powered.   The Magician was built box stock with  no flap movement.   Also flies on .015 cable about 58 foot center to center.

[Larry Renger]

Or you can update your Flite Streak! Make a new horizontal tail 4"more span with the elevator 1/2" wider and you will find you have a smooth turning, clean flying machine. The added tail area with higher aspect ratio provides the damping to allow hard corners without bobble on exit. In honor of Bill Netzband who inspired the modification (and provided the dimensions) it becomes a "Doodle Streak"!

There are a few ot these around here, and they have been very favorably received.  Warren Walker even has a 1.5 scale up version. Awesome to watch!

[Tim Wescott]

On flaps:

Flaps make for prettier squares and they don't so much make your loops (and level flight) smoother as they allow you to adjust the plane so that you get the smooth flying while still getting those pretty squares.

BUT: until you're flying pretty good in intermediate, you'll be held back a lot more by your own piloting skill than by any gain that flaps would get you, and flapless planes are a lot easier to fix than flapped planes.  My first beginner plane had flaps, but based on advise here I started flying a Skyray and then a Flight Streak until I was consistently in the middle of the pack in Intermediate.  Now I'm flying a Fancherized Twister, and the flaps are still giving me a lot less than what I'm taking away by my own piloting.

On Fancherizing a Twister:

You're really not making much more work for yourself to make a Fancherized Twister, unless you decide on a built-up tail (or a wacky fuselage, like I did).  Whacking a new fuselage and tail feathers out of sheet doesn't take much time at all; that and a longer elevator rod is about the only scratch-work you need to do -- and these days I'd suggest that you always use a carbon-fiber pushrod in the tail anyway.

[rich gorrill]

My thanks to all and everyone for their input. I'm certainly not as confused as i was before I posted. You guys have made narrowing down my choices very easy.

As I look through the different web sites I 'm a little confused by the pricing of kits. I live in southeastern pa. and the only hobby shop is a 35 mile ride, which I have made a few times, but they are not carrying a lot of kits in stock anymore. Brodak charges about $88.00 for a pretty standard kit, But Sig only gets $50.00 for a Banshee or a Twister. The Streak I built was a Brodak kit and the quality was great, how about the quality of the Sig kits? I would hope with their reputation and the amount of balsa the sell the kits would be of a high quality. Am I right in assuming this? Has anyone had any issues with a kit from Sig?

Rich   ama51735

[James D. Hayes]

I purchased a Sig Twister and it's a pretty nice kit. I'm still flying a flapless plane (Ringmaster) and I'm working on the beginner's pattern also. My first competition is in August. I probably won't build the Twister until my skills get a little further. The Brodak Cardinal kit would be a nice choice also. I've got on of them sitting under the bench too.


Jim Hayes

[Tim Wescott]

Rich:

Build enough kits, and eventually you'll have problems with any manufacturer.

I just finished building a heavily modified Twister from a kit.  Some of the wood that I threw away because of the modifications was wood that I would have thrown away because of the wood (the tail pieces were rock hard and heavy).  Some of the wood that I would have used I replaced because of the wood -- some of the wing ribs were on sheets that had grain running up through the thickness of the sheet instead of along it, and one flap was way heavier and stiffer than the other.  I'd rate that kit as "not so good".

I just opened up a Sig Akromaster to take a look to answer this question.  It has some heavier wood, but nothing I saw that I'd reject.  I'd rate it as "average".

I also just opened up a Brodak Fancy Pants.  The worst wood in there was about as good as the average wood in the Sig kit, and the best was really nice.  It's still die cut as far as I can tell, but it's superior die cutting to the Sig kits I have experience with.

I also have a Ringmaster Delux kit from Pat King which I'm hesitating to build because if I do I'll be ruined forever for die-cut kits.  The wood is somewhere between really good and just plain great, and it's laser cut.

If every Brodak kit matches that Fancy Pants, then yes, it's worth the extra $$.

[Tim Wescott]

I purchased a Sig Twister and it's a pretty nice kit. I'm still flying a flapless plane (Ringmaster) and I'm working on the beginner's pattern also. My first competition is in August. I probably won't build the Twister until my skills get a little further. The Brodak Cardinal kit would be a nice choice also. I've got on of them sitting under the bench too.

Flying the pattern with a Ringmaster is like racing a Volkswagen bug.  It can be done, but there are easier things to start with.

If you really want a nice flapless plane, get a Sig Skyray 35 kit, then dig up a web site that has Brett Buck's comments on flying one in competition.