supplier discusion at EAA

[dave siegler]

I am attending EAA airventure, Volunteering at Kid venture, and was talking to a model airplane supplier. 

Not a ARF company, one with the name of of a tree and country in it.  They make kits for large WWI airplanes.

I asked "Do you still sell spruce"

"Oh no, its expensive and real hard on our saw blades."
(why is that my problem?)

I respond:  "But it builds straighter , stiffer airplanes"

His response " You don't need spruce bass is fine"
( how does he knows what and how I build?)

I know my orders are small but he clearly doesn't get it.  He just lost a customer. He could have said "the demand isn't there for us to carry it" just "no we don't", or  you can get it from XYZ

Instead he tried to tell me what I should want it because based on his needs, not understanding mine.   Bass isn't spruce, and I know what I want and why I want it.

I can order my spars from wag aero, wicks or aircraft spruce, as well as plywood, epoxy, dope, and other stuff he makes good margin on.  I am willing to pay a little more.  The full scale companies are glad to take my money. 

Or get it all from stunt hanger hobby. 

Damm I miss Lone Star balsa.

[Brett Buck]

I am attending EAA airventure, Volunteering at Kid venture, and was talking to a model airplane supplier. 

Not a ARF company, one with the name of of a tree and country in it.  They make kits for large WWI airplanes.

I asked "Do you still sell spruce"

"Oh no, its expensive and real hard on our saw blades."
(why is that my problem?)

I respond:  "But it builds straighter , stiffer airplanes"

His response " You don't need spruce bass is fine"
( how does he knows what and how I build?)

       Let's see, a tree and a country - Oh, I know, the infamous "Cocobolo Botswana" company.

    Anyone who thinks basswood and spruce are somehow acceptable structural substitutes for each other really isn't worth wasting a lot of time on. And what the heck kind of saw blades to they have at Balsa USA, aluminum with lead teeth? Spruce might be a little gummy, but it isn't particularly hard on blades, even a common hardware store carbide blade can cut rosewood or sugar maple all day long. A top quality industrial carbide blade cutting spruce should last years or decades.

     Brett

[Dane Martin]

It seems to be the thing to do now. SIG stopped carrying spruce. Apparently spruce is only a "tiny bit stronger" and bass accepts glue easier.

http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGBA331.html

[Gerald Arana]

Personally, I prefer BASSWOOD over SPRUCE simply because it is easier to work with! 

But that's just me! 

Jerry

[Tim Wescott]

It seems to be the thing to do now. SIG stopped carrying spruce. Apparently spruce is only a "tiny bit stronger" and bass accepts glue easier.

http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGBA331.html

I was told a long long time ago that spruce was the superior material because it has better shock resistance.  That came from -- the Sig catalog.

It'd be interesting to do head to head testing -- but I don't use any spruce or basswood in any of my stunt planes.  It's either balsa of varying weights, or plywood.

[Mike Scholtes]

Hey, I got the grips for my Colt Custom Shop 1911 from Cocobolo Botswana! Great customer service.

As for aircraft spruce I think I would try, oh I don't know, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co? They don't sell in precut thicknesses suitable for model purposes but they have the wood in small batches you can cut or plane yourself or have done. Perhaps ironically they also sell balsa.

[Avaiojet]

I was able to buy spruce at the lumber yard and use my table saw to make my own spars.   They were usable.  I made some struts for my 1/4 sc Cub that way too.

Rusty,

You're building a 25% scale Cub?

CB

[Tim Wescott]

As for aircraft spruce I think I would try, oh I don't know, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co? They don't sell in precut thicknesses suitable for model purposes but they have the wood in small batches you can cut or plane yourself or have done. Perhaps ironically they also sell balsa.

They sell capstrip down to 1/8" thick by 3/16" wide -- if you wanted thinner than 3/16" you could buy wider stock and strip it out with a utility knife.

(I saw your post and thought "what the???", because I'd remembered looking and saying "oh, that'll work" to myself, but not any exact dimensions).

[Arlan McKee]

I was told a long long time ago that spruce was the superior material because it has better shock resistance.  That came from -- the Sig catalog.

It'd be interesting to do head to head testing -- but I don't use any spruce or basswood in any of my stunt planes.  It's either balsa of varying weights, or plywood.

http://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-topics/wood/146-wood-strengths.html

This chart lists 5 different types of spruce. One has similar impact strength when compared to Basswood but the other 4 are much stronger.
After reading on several Luthier sites this morning I have found that the consensus there is that the availabLe spruce has uneven grain structure. It was interesting that they also mentioned friends that built model airplanes were having the same problem finding good spruce.

Arlan

[Mike Scholtes]

The full-scale aircraft suppliers sell straight-grain Sitka spruce. People's lives depend on it.

[Tim Wescott]

The full-scale aircraft suppliers sell straight-grain Sitka spruce. People's lives depend on it.

It's getting harder to find, though.  My understanding is that it's slow-growing and solitary of habit, so when a section is logged off it's all replaced by Douglas fir (at least around here), and there's no spruce there the next time around.

[Dan McEntee]

  HEY DAVE!!!
      Tell everyone there that Jan Pott, Bob Arata and myself say HELLO! Job situation wouldn't let me attend again this year, but we'll see what cooks for next year. I hope the weather gods treat you well.
    HAVE FUN!!!
    Dan McEntee

[dave siegler]

  HEY DAVE!!!
      Tell everyone there that Jan Pott, Bob Arata and myself say HELLO! Job situation wouldn't let me attend again this year, but we'll see what cooks for next year. I hope the weather gods treat you well.
    HAVE FUN!!!
    Dan McEntee

Dan, we miss you guys.  I am up there all week,

A lot of new people and we need some coaching for them on stuff like circle safety.  The St Louis crew always set a good example!

Saw both Doc and Fifi flying at the same time, B1 doing low fast passes, F86 arrival and 2 P51, A10 and F35 in heritage flight.

[dave siegler]

Hey, I got the grips for my Colt Custom Shop 1911 from Cocobolo Botswana! Great customer service.

As for aircraft spruce I think I would try, oh I don't know, Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co? They don't sell in precut thicknesses suitable for model purposes but they have the wood in small batches you can cut or plane yourself or have done. Perhaps ironically they also sell balsa.

Aircraft spruce and Wicks aircraft sell spruce in the right sizes for spars. 
Some times you have to wait till they decide to mill it.  I don't think all lengths are in stock. 

Or go make friends with a guy that makes guitars.  A lot of backs are spruce. 

[Bob Hunt]

Aircraft spruce and Wicks aircraft sell spruce in the right sizes for spars. 
Some times you have to wait till they decide to mill it.  I don't think all lengths are in stock. 

Or go make friends with a guy that makes guitars.  A lot of backs are spruce.

Well, actually you never see a spruce back on a guitar. However, spruce is used extensively for tops or “soundboards.” Sitka, Lutz, and Engelmann spruce are the popular types. Spruce is also used for bracing of the tops and backs. You might try Allied Lutherie or Stewart MacDonald as suppliers for this wood. They are guitar parts and wood suppliers for amateur guitar builders... like me!   

Bob Hunt

P.S. The guy who owns Grizzly is a guitar buff and he lists a lot of wood and parts in his company's catalog. - Bob

[Steve Helmick]

SIG spruce always sucked, with bad grain directions being common. One of our best local F1A fliers (Nordic glider, aka "towline glider") Jim Walters, was a Boeing engineer, and his job there was stress analysis. He made the US Team several times...but I did beat him...once.

Jim looked at SIG spruce, did some research, and ended up buying Alaska yellow cedar. He bought a 2x4 at the local special lumber store, and since he was tight with his nickles, I'm sure it was pretty inexpensive. The grain is straighter, a huge plus. He said it was not quite as strong as Spruce, but very close. The typical F1A of the day had a wing chord of about 5.5">6" and span about 90", with the airfoil thickness of about 6% or roughly 5/16". So I think it would be plenty good enough for CL use.

I'm wondering how Basswood and Poplar compare (to each other). Are they cousins or same trees or what? I've seen lots of Poplar trees, but never even heard of a reference to a Basswood tree. The woods look very similar, in color, grain, etc. I've used a fair amount of Basswood building speed models, back in the '60's. One local lumberyard sells lots of Poplar, and I've bought some of it for DIY projects.

I'd say that a typical piece of Basswood should be stronger than a crappy piece of Spruce with wonky grain. It all depends on how much Spruce you are willing to buy and discard. Steve

[Tim Wescott]

According to Wikipedia poplar and basswood aren't closely related at all -- Interestingly enough, basswood is more closely related to balsa than to poplar, although the relation is still distant.

[Will Hinton]

Referring back to Bob Hunt's comments, I have been buying my spruce for guitar bracing from Aircraft Spruce for the past several builds and find the stuff very straight grained and acceptable with better prices than the other luthier supply places.  It gets here super quick, too.
I'm not knocking the other suppliers Bob mentioned, though. I use all of them from time to time.  All good people.

[Rich Perry]

 As the wood prep supervisor for a custom cabinet shop, I find it laughable that our hobby would be even making a dent in the spruce availability.   I have always gotten mine from Aircraft Spruce, and never had a problem with inventory.   Any wood we would use in our models would be considered less than "drop" in a real manufacturing facility.  I am going to guess that we do not need to worry about the supply.

 On another note, I love Balsa USA and support them as much as I can. While an employee may have been a bit misguided on the comparisons  between bass and spruce,  in the models they design and sell, it may not matter.  However in my CL combat models I do prefer spruce, as strength and weight are a paramount concern.