Author Topic: Sullivan ready to use lines (Read 4075 times)

James Holford · « **on:** July 12, 2016, 06:00:20 AM »

Anyone use these sets that brodak offers??

In need of a set of lines for my Ringmaster and was thinking of going this route.

Thanks

peabody · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2016, 06:49:10 AM »

I strongly suggest lines from Tom Morris.....they may be ordered from this site.....

Have fun!

James Holford · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2016, 07:42:21 AM »

Are they already made up or can be ordered that way?

James Holford · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2016, 07:47:56 AM »

Nvm just checked them out. I'll go with them!! Just unsure with thimble to thimble length and to get strands or solids

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2016, 08:14:42 AM »

Quote from: James Holford on July 12, 2016, 07:47:56 AM

Nvm just checked them out. I'll go with them!! Just unsure with thimble to thimble length and to get strands or solids

well solids are pretty much relegated to upper crust competition due to maintenance and sticking issues, I would suggest stranded
also depending on what power you have on your ringmaster, you probably want something around 60'

peabody · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2016, 08:15:04 AM »

Get stranded....and I would suggest 56'

Have fun!~

James Holford · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2016, 08:16:15 AM »

Ohh that's what thimble to thimble meant.. yea 60.

Unless I can find a veco.29 cheaply I'm gona use the Fox. 35

Brett Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2016, 08:57:51 AM »

Quote from: James Holford on July 12, 2016, 06:00:20 AM

Anyone use these sets that brodak offers??

In need of a set of lines for my Ringmaster and was thinking of going this route.

Oh, I don't know. If these are the same as the old Sullivan pre-made lines, be very careful. Inspect the crimps very carefully because at least in the old days, they were very frequently done incorrectly and would slip easily. Also, check that the length is correct. They are supposed to be 58' (for the "60 foot" lines) long, but many times they were much longer. The longest I ever saw was a set of "60'" lines that were something like 75 feet. I used to get these sets and remake the ends with the much more secure wrapped ends. Now, I get the line in bulk from MBS model supply and make them myself.

I thought that Sullivan wasn't making lines any more. If this is Brodak reviving the name and manufacturing them himself, could be a different story, he certainly knows what the issues used to be and presumably took care of it.

Whatever you do, certainly pull-test the lines *off the airplane* before using them. Don't try them for the first time with everything connected, because if they do let go, it will very likely damage the airplane.

Brett

James Holford · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:08:43 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 12, 2016, 08:57:51 AM

Oh, I don't know. If these are the same as the old Sullivan pre-made lines, be very careful. Inspect the crimps very carefully because at least in the old days, they were very frequently done incorrectly and would slip easily. Also, check that the length is correct. They are supposed to be 58' (for the "60 foot" lines) long, but many times they were much longer. The longest I ever saw was a set of "60'" lines that were something like 75 feet. I used to get these sets and remake the ends with the much more secure wrapped ends. Now, I get the line in bulk from MBS model supply and make them myself.

I thought that Sullivan wasn't making lines any more. If this is Brodak reviving the name and manufacturing them himself, could be a different story, he certainly knows what the issues used to be and presumably took care of it.

Whatever you do, certainly pull-test the lines *off the airplane* before using them. Don't try them for the first time with everything connected, because if they do let go, it will very likely damage the airplane.

Brett

Thanks for the heads up. I'm likely to go the Tom morris route

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:28:06 AM »

Quote from: James Holford on July 12, 2016, 09:08:43 AM

Thanks for the heads up. I'm likely to go the Tom morris route

Be sure and get the conventional bare stainless steel 7-strand lines, not the brown 7-strand or any variety of 19-strand.

I emphasize that I would expect that if the Brodak lines are of new manufacture, John would have taken care of the quality control issues from the good old days.

Brett

Motorman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:34:10 AM »

My Ringmaster flys with lots of power from a rich running Veco 19. Can't imagine a veco 29 unless you're flying combat.

MM

Jim Carter · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2016, 04:02:40 PM »

Quote from: James Holford on July 12, 2016, 06:00:20 AM

Anyone use these sets that brodak offers??

In need of a set of lines for my Ringmaster and was thinking of going this route.

Thanks

Shur'!! I and nearly every member of our little group use them and we've had no problems. Granted, some of us (me) probably should replace them after 200 flights or so (I've gotten close to 400 documented flights with mine) and I still haven't found any overt signs or wear or potential failure. Give'em a try!! I think you'll be pleased.

James Holford · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2016, 06:03:31 PM »

Quote from: Motorman on July 12, 2016, 09:34:10 AM

My Ringmaster flys with lots of power from a rich running Veco 19. Can't imagine a veco 29 unless you're flying combat.

MM

Yea Im so lost as to what engine to actually go with...

really want something in the middle of power between .19 and .35.

I really would like to use the Fox .35 but dont want to be an overkill.

I have 2 Fox .19's but not sure if they would do Justice flying the OTS pattern.

I do have a brand new in the box OS .25LA CL never ran...problem is its lost somewhere at my dad's and would be an act of congress jsut to find it. So Im looking to maybe buy another engine used already broke in if I must.

When I visited Dave Roland few years back he had a Veco .29 on a Sterling F2 Mustang.. and man did it scream and perform! Think that is why Im hooked on a .29...

But before I decide on Lines I do need to settle on what powerplant to use.

Had an OS.20... probably should have kept it haha. No regrets tho.

Shug Emery · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2016, 06:18:36 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on July 12, 2016, 09:28:06 AM

Be sure and get the conventional bare stainless steel 7-strand lines, not the brown 7-strand or any variety of 19-strand.

I emphasize that I would expect that if the Brodak lines are of new manufacture, John would have taken care of the quality control issues from the good old days.

Brett

I am curious as to the distaste of 19 strand. I've been using exactly that for the last couple of years.
Shug

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2016, 06:54:38 PM »

Quote from: Shug Emery on July 12, 2016, 06:18:36 PM

I am curious as to the distaste of 19 strand. I've been using exactly that for the last couple of years.
Shug

They're really soft and supple and all, but just remember that each strand is mucho smaller, and therefore more fragile. If you're ok with flying your plane on a set of 19 strand lines with one or two strands obviously broken and dangling, please don't do it around others. I always think about several of my friends who had to testify in court about a CL accident...and so very glad I wasn't there!!!

Steve

Shug Emery · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2016, 06:59:21 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on July 12, 2016, 06:54:38 PM

They're really soft and supple and all, but just remember that each strand is mucho smaller, and therefore more fragile. If you're ok with flying your plane on a set of 19 strand lines with one or two strands obviously broken and dangling, please don't do it around others. I always think about several of my friends who had to testify in court about a CL accident...and so very glad I wasn't there!!! Steve

I have yet to have one break of have a strand break.
So I reckon I am OK with it. But I am fairly new and am always hearing something new on some piece of gear or such and such.
Shug

James Holford · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2016, 07:03:44 PM »

We learn something everyday

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2016, 07:09:52 PM »

Quote from: Shug Emery on July 12, 2016, 06:59:21 PM

I have yet to have one break of have a strand break.
So I reckon I am OK with it. But I am fairly new and am always hearing something new on some piece of gear or such and such.
Shug

Ye fly on grass, which will help a lot, I'd expect. If/when you fly on pavement, try real hard not to drag your lines as you enter & exit the circle.

Steve

Chris Fretz · « **Reply #18 on:** July 12, 2016, 07:39:03 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on July 12, 2016, 06:54:38 PM

They're really soft and supple and all, but just remember that each strand is mucho smaller, and therefore more fragile. If you're ok with flying your plane on a set of 19 strand lines with one or two strands obviously broken and dangling, please don't do it around others. I always think about several of my friends who had to testify in court about a CL accident...and so very glad I wasn't there!!! Steve

Quote from: Shug Emery on July 12, 2016, 06:18:36 PM

I am curious as to the distaste of 19 strand. I've been using exactly that for the last couple of years.
Shug

Well son of a gun this is what I have too!

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #19 on:** July 12, 2016, 09:10:39 PM »

I come across old Sullivan lines from time to time, new in box, and have used them some times for convenience, but have lost two airplanes when the lines broke up inside the crimp at the handle. And not very many flights on the line in either case either. I'll cut the crimps off and wrap the ends before I use any of the other sets I have in my kit. It doesn't take long and when finished you know what you have.
Good luck and have fun,
Dan McEntee

Target · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2016, 12:50:08 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on July 12, 2016, 06:54:38 PM

They're really soft and supple and all, but just remember that each strand is mucho smaller, and therefore more fragile. If you're ok with flying your plane on a set of 19 strand lines with one or two strands obviously broken and dangling, please don't do it around others. I always think about several of my friends who had to testify in court about a CL accident...and so very glad I wasn't there!!! Steve

Speaking from my maritime experience, 2 broken strands of 19 is a better strength percentage than just 1 broken strand of 7 strand...
It is true however that the strands will be more fragile due to smaller cross section, and also, something to think about is that in a 7 strand lay, usually only one is hidden by the 6 outer strands.
Many more (I forget how many exactly) are hidden inside the outer perimeter on 19 strand.
If two of the outer are failed, quite a few more inner ones could be and hidden by the outer layer.

Seems like when in doubt, a pull test might be good insurance, even with new lines.

Only two kinds of parts fail, in my opinion-
Old,
New.

R,
Chris

john e. holliday · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2016, 01:13:07 PM »

I have had lines break during a flight even after a pull test. Best to check them every so often. I don't use crimped lines. Big difference between crimp and swagging.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2016, 02:51:55 PM »

Quote from: Chris Behm on July 13, 2016, 12:50:08 PM

Speaking from my maritime experience, 2 broken strands of 19 is a better strength percentage than just 1 broken strand of 7 strand...
It is true however that the strands will be more fragile due to smaller cross section, and also, something to think about is that in a 7 strand lay, usually only one is hidden by the 6 outer strands.
Many more (I forget how many exactly) are hidden inside the outer perimeter on 19 strand.
If two of the outer are failed, quite a few more inner ones could be and hidden by the outer layer.

Seems like when in doubt, a pull test might be good insurance, even with new lines.

Only two kinds of parts fail, in my opinion-
Old,
New.

R,
Chris

My point is that if you have one broken strand, you should trashcan the set of lines. Since the wires in a set of 19 strands are so much smaller and therefore easier to damage, then it would seem that the service life is likely less. I am not saying that 19 strand lines aren't strong or nice to use, just that they likely won't last for as many flights.

I do wonder about the effect of two cable lines being twisted together under tension during a series of maneuvers and the friction between them as more maneuvers are flown, and doubt that this wear is commonly encountered in many other cable uses. Would 7 or 19 strand lines take this best? But I also don't think this is normally the most common cause of line damage, so "real world" comparisons might be rare. If you fly on pavement, avoid dragging your lines on the way in/out of the circle, and do your best to avoid having them trampled in the pits. For me, it depends on where I'm flying, what the pits are (grass or paved) and who is around. I prefer to roll my lines up between rounds. I do this by detaching the handle, but leaving the lines connected to the plane.

In contests, some competitors have stated that since they pull tested befor their first flight and did not disconnect their lines, therefore they should not have to pull test again for their second flight. TOTAL BS! Most line damage happens in the pits, with your plane and handle sitting there peacefully.

Steve

Target · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2016, 03:43:09 PM »

For abrasion resistance, 7 strand wire should be better than 19, based on my own wire rope experience.
And you're right that most wire rope never has to be exposed to rubbing against itself...And that likely much more wear and tear is collected while not in flight.
Agreed that one stand broken of 19 is cause for retirement, but my point was that inner strands are hidden, and could be broken in a crimp.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2016, 03:59:58 PM »

Quote from: Chris Behm on July 13, 2016, 03:43:09 PM

but my point was that inner strands are hidden, and could be broken in a crimp.

Hence my opinion that lines and leadouts be bound with copper wire wrappings and never crimping or swaging. When in doubt, read the rulebook, but never solder either lines or leadouts.

Steve

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2016, 06:55:03 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on July 13, 2016, 03:59:58 PM

Hence my opinion that lines and leadouts be bound with copper wire wrappings and never crimping or swaging. When in doubt, read the rulebook, but never solder either lines or leadouts. Steve

The rule book allows swaging of lines and defines how to do it.

I have used swaged lines for over 49 years on stunters and NEVER, NEVER had a failure. I've personally witnessed a couple of failures with crimped lines and about half a dozen with wrapped lines. Either one can fail if done improperly. I would call your attention to the fact that most commercial wire rope is swaged.

The breaking point of swaged connections is much more consistent and predictable than either of the other methods!

Randy Cuberly

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #26 on:** July 15, 2016, 01:06:50 PM »

Yeah, but unfortunately, most think "swaging = crimping". Please take a look at the AMA rules and tell me which they show. It says "crimp" and what it shows is "crimping" as I understand the term. "Swaging" would be a linear crushing of the tube, right? If you go by the rulebook...swaging really isn't legal, but crimping is!

I still think swaging would create a stress concentration, at least more so than copper wire binding (as also shown in the rulebook). I like to use two sizes of heat shrink tubing on each binding...a small tube butted up to the binding, and an overlapping tube that secures the copper binding wire and joins to the smaller tube. The object is to reduce or eliminate potential problems from stress concentrations. Underneath the HS tubing is the copper wire binding as shown in the rulebook.

Steve

B Norton · « **Reply #27 on:** July 15, 2016, 02:52:09 PM »

In the past I've used crimped-swagged and wrapped lines and the only problem I have experienced was from cable getting smashed or kinked completely away from the binding area. I guess the point of this thread is be safe and check your equipment often any doubt don't use it!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #28 on:** July 15, 2016, 11:18:18 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on July 15, 2016, 01:06:50 PM

Yeah, but unfortunately, most think "swaging = crimping". Please take a look at the AMA rules and tell me which they show. It says "crimp" and what it shows is "crimping" as I understand the term. "Swaging" would be a linear crushing of the tube, right? If you go by the rulebook...swaging really isn't legal, but crimping is!

I still think swaging would create a stress concentration, at least more so than copper wire binding (as also shown in the rulebook). I like to use two sizes of heat shrink tubing on each binding...a small tube butted up to the binding, and an overlapping tube that secures the copper binding wire and joins to the smaller tube. The object is to reduce or eliminate potential problems from stress concentrations. Underneath the HS tubing is the copper wire binding as shown in the rulebook. Steve

Swaging is done with a rounded dimple, preferably in a couple of places. you can buy swaging tools for this purpose but I make my own by simply doing a regrind on the tools made to lock electrical connectors in place This results in a very high unit loading on the swaged area without forcing a sharp area that crushes and cuts the line. Flattening of the tube with pliers or heaven forbid, wire cutters, as I've seen done in a few cases is very bad practice. Wire wrapping does not result in a high unit loading and can slip as I have proven many times in testing.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/locoloc.php

This shows a typical commercial swaging tool that can be used on .030 cable like we use for leadouts.

For lines it is the same process with smaller swaging.

Randy Cuberly

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #29 on:** July 20, 2016, 05:23:18 AM »

I recently bought a few sets of lines from Tom Morris. I love them. 19 strand .015 x63 eyelet to eyelet. Perfect length.Sullivan lines are different story. They're never the same length and you end up redoing them anyway. Just my 2cents. PhillySkip

Bald Paul · « **Reply #30 on:** July 25, 2016, 03:05:18 PM »

Quote from: Skip Chernoff on July 20, 2016, 05:23:18 AM

I recently bought a few sets of lines from Tom Morris. I love them. 19 strand .015 x63 eyelet to eyelet. Perfect length.Sullivan lines are different story. They're never the same length and you end up redoing them anyway. Just my 2cents. PhillySkip

How did you specify what length you wanted to order? I've wanted to get a couple of sets, but there's nowhere I see to specify how long, and I've asked several times via the "contact us" link and have never received a reply.

badbill · « **Reply #31 on:** July 28, 2016, 06:53:47 AM »

Quote from: Bald Paul on July 25, 2016, 03:05:18 PM

How did you specify what length you wanted to order? I've wanted to get a couple of sets, but there's nowhere I see to specify how long, and I've asked several times via the "contact us" link and have never received a reply.

Just put the length desired in the comments section when you order. If you leave it blank, Tom will call you and ask. The sets I have gotten from him are perfect, and $20 is a great price for perfect!

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #32 on:** July 28, 2016, 10:58:34 PM »

Last time I ordered lines from Tom, he emailed me because I asked for 7-strand cable and apparently, he couldn't believe it. But he got them in the mail quickly. Then, I had to email him and ask how much $ the bill was, because he didn't include an invoice, which I was expecting. However, I emailed him directly and didn't use the Stunthanger Hobby link, probably because it assumed 19 strands, which I didn't want. Yes, they are nice and soft.

Truthfully, I'd rather do them myself, but I'd have to use my neighbor's driveway (or Howard's), which I will do next time, for sure. Partly, it's the $ and partly it's because I prefer the way I do them better. I already have the cable, copper wire, eyelets and heat shrink tubing.

Steve