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Author Topic: Suggestions for a second plane  (Read 11256 times)

Offline aba183210

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Suggestions for a second plane
« on: September 22, 2015, 05:53:10 PM »
Good afternoon.

I have been flying an electric Flite Streak trainer for some time and have been able to perform basic maneuvers.

What would be some suggestions for a second plane? My goal is to be able to do OTS or modern stunt one day.

Thank you very much.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 06:03:07 PM »
I'd suggest moving up to a 40 sized plane with a 500 to 550 sq. in. wing. Vector 40 is a good one. If you want to fly old time you'll need a plane from 1950 with an engine (not electric). The Jamison Special is a good one.

Go to the Brodak site and the RSM site, lots of kits, see what you like.


MM

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 06:09:16 PM »
Build a Twister. Lots of different ARFs will get you there. Build a Fancherized Twister from plans. Or a Primary Force kit. I believe Mickey Pratt will be making some new ones. The electric Flite Streak should do the pattern if it's straight and adequately powered. When set up correctly it is an excellent stunt trainer. There's also that other Sig Profile favored by some.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 06:29:28 PM »
If you're still in basic maneuvers then your second plane should be another Flight Streak, or (better) a Sig Skyray.  They're a bit smaller than a "serious" stunt plane but until you're flying the whole pattern fairly well you'll be held back by you and not by the plane.

Or get one of these and put wheels on it: http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/webcat/Descriptions/StreakIII.html.

If you can't do every maneuver in the pattern with the Flight Streak -- ask for help and we'll help.  If there's people in your area that fly CL stunt ask for their help and -- chances are -- they'll help.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Will Davis

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 07:17:31 PM »
If you have intentions to fly OTS , the new Brodak ringmaster  ARF would be a good choice, the glow version is very well built, reasonable price  and perfect for a la 25.

Have not seen the electric version, but Is Available
Will Davis
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 07:34:36 PM »
it depends if the ground has stabilised and stopped hitting the aeroplane .



A rib template & your underway . You can fiddle the shapes & or go profile .
the wing works well . Builds quick as all the ribs are the same .
if your into building .
aparently THAt is a Brodak R T C over , if yrnot .

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 07:51:28 PM »
aba,

Welcome!

If your interested in OTS, this Thread offers some model airplane choices and information.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,37186.0.html

Good luck.

Charles
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Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
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Offline tom brightbill

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 08:17:25 PM »
A Smoothie or Nobler would be legal for both classes, if that's a help.
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 09:32:48 PM »
it depends if the ground has stabilised and stopped hitting the aeroplane .

That's about where I'm at......5 planes later. I'd tend to stay with a simple profile like a RingMaster. If you want a bigger plane, the Trophy Trainer or a Primary Force is a good choice with a 40-46 engine.
Best Regards,
Bill

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Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 11:28:26 AM »
I do thank you for your suggestions. I am leaning toward the Ringmaster or the Super Clown or similar. My goal is to be able to fly one of those large stunters (i.e. Legacy, Strega, etc).

My Flite Streak trainer has a flat bottom wing and this is why I am looking for an intermediate plane.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2015, 12:37:19 PM »
You can't go wrong with either the Ringmaster or Super Clown.  May have to put taller control horn on the Ringmaster So the movement of the elevator can be slowed down.   In fact when you get the kit make templates of the parts and build a second one. 

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2015, 03:15:56 PM »
I do thank you for your suggestions. I am leaning toward the Ringmaster or the Super Clown or similar. My goal is to be able to fly one of those large stunters (i.e. Legacy, Strega, etc).

My Flite Streak trainer has a flat bottom wing and this is why I am looking for an intermediate plane.

When I saw your original post I didn't notice that it's a Flight Streak Trainer.  A Flight Streak should be much better.

As far as flying ability goes, the Super Clown (or any of the other suggestions you've gotten) is a better choice than a Ringmaster.  Ringmasters have a really strange airfoil (the "pollywog") and way too much elevator.  Together, these combine to make for a plane that is really easy to stall in the air.  Since that's not behavior that is common (or even exists) in other planes, it's not something you want to have getting in your way when you practice.

You can significantly increase your Ringmaster's flying ability by building it with the control rod connected close to the bellcrank axel (5/8" is the figure I was given) and using a horn that's longer than stock (stock is about 1/2" down from the hinge line, most people run about twice that).  You want no more than about 20 degrees of elevator deflection each way, and you want it to happen when your handle is deflected by a good amount (+/- 45 degrees isn't bad).  So you need to "gear down" the elevator a whole lot from stock.

In theory you could use a better airfoil, but then it would not be OTS legal.  People may not notice or complain -- but it still wouldn't match the wording of the rules.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 03:41:25 PM »
Hi aba!

Welcome to the Stunthanger!

I love the Super Clown!  You have the option of building it with or with out flaps.  I don't think flaps are that critical on the Super Clown and it is OTS legal.  I would get a kit form Brodak and trace all the parts so you can build another!  It is a super easy build with a constant chord wing.  Electric version is available and of course, a glow powered one.  A LA .25 is a great engine for the glow version.  We have both the electric and glow versions and it is the plane I have used for OTS (glow version).

The Sig Skyray .35 is an excellent choice, another easy build, just don't use the ply ribs!  Many will recommend building several of what ever you choose.  That will remove the condition of a possible difference in the flight characteristics of different models.  Also, if you build a few, you can be ready to still fly when the dreaded "impact" occurs! ;)

Whatever you do, have fun!!  Your desire to fly OTS or the full pattern will pay off if you practice, and unfortunately hitting "Mother Earth" a bit too hard is a common problem at first so don't despair!

BIG Bear
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 08:10:19 PM »
Bill mentioned the Skyray, which is a good choice and can make a struggling beginner feel like he's gotten a shot of instant skill. It was that way for me anyway. I kit-bashed it to look like a Flite Streak. My only mistake is that I overdid it when I followed the suggestion to make balsa ribs. I used contest balsa. Sounds good, right. But after getting all big headed bringing home a trophy, I was showing off one day and hit the ground on the exit of a V8. The outboard wing exploded like a bomb had detonated inside. Pretty sick sight. If I had that elusive do-over, I would have used medium balsa ribs. But building that modified model did teach me how incredibly easy it is to make a stack of perfect ribs. It was my first full build of a 35 size model(used a .25fp).
Good luck.
Rusty

See what I mean. It's what happens every time I think I'm gettn' good. Not a single rib left inside that wing
DON'T PANIC!
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Online Mike Scholtes

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2015, 10:38:18 PM »
You don't mention if your plan is to stick with electric, but if you are open to IC motors the Brodak Shark 402 is a good choice. Simple construction like the Flite Streak, Skyray, and Super Clown but more modern design with current-thinking moment arms and tail volume compared to wing area (402"). LA25 would be perfect motor. Readily available and cheap, on eBay or from other modelers who have one too many. Or Brodak's own 25, if in stock when you need it.

At this stage in your career any of these would be fine and get you ready for the next step up in a year or so to something like a Vector or Oriental, in the 500-550  inch range. Vector has an e-conversion kit available so it can be built as e-power from the outset. There is no "wrong" choice among these models.

Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2015, 08:54:53 AM »
I was unaware that OTS requires an IC engine. The reason that I am doing electric CL (and also only RC unpowered sailplanes-DLG as well as those 3 meter sailplanes planes like the Paragon as well as slope soaring warbirds) is because fuel gives me adverse reactions. But I do appreciate the advice given here, and I just want to make sure I get a plane I can learn stunting, including the principles of inverted flight so that one day I am able to fly one of those full size stunters.

At the local field, I did see one guy flying the complete pattern using an electric large stunter. It flew really nice.


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2015, 09:19:30 AM »
I was unaware that OTS requires an IC engine. The reason that I am doing electric CL (and also only RC unpowered sailplanes-DLG as well as those 3 meter sailplanes planes like the Paragon as well as slope soaring warbirds) is because fuel gives me adverse reactions. But I do appreciate the advice given here, and I just want to make sure I get a plane I can learn stunting, including the principles of inverted flight so that one day I am able to fly one of those full size stunters.

At the local field, I did see one guy flying the complete pattern using an electric large stunter. It flew really nice.

I don't believe that electric is ruled out for OTS, although there are some purists who are upset by the idea of competing in OTS with an electric motor.  Check with your local contest directors to see if they'll allow it (the answer is probably "yes").
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Motorman

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2015, 09:29:41 AM »
Larger planes fly better. Smaller than 550 sq. in. wing you will have problems with nose weight and where to put the battery. Battery weight has to be centered on the thrust line, 550+ you can just mount everything in front of the leading edge no problem.


MM

Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2015, 11:04:31 AM »
I was unaware that OTS requires an IC engine. The reason that I am doing electric CL (and also only RC unpowered sailplanes-DLG as well as those 3 meter sailplanes planes like the Paragon as well as slope soaring warbirds) is because fuel gives me adverse reactions. But I do appreciate the advice given here, and I just want to make sure I get a plane I can learn stunting, including the principles of inverted flight so that one day I am able to fly one of those full size stunters.

At the local field, I did see one guy flying the complete pattern using an electric large stunter. It flew really nice.



You can use electric in OTS.  Don't let anyone tell otherwise!
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2015, 12:10:35 PM »
Anybody that will not let you fly an electric powered plane in Old Time has HUA trouble.  I've seen them flown at VSC and other places.  Go with what you want and stay with it.

I myself haven't gone electric because of the initial start up cost for power, motor, batteries and charger.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2015, 12:40:37 PM »
I myself haven't gone electric because of the initial start up cost for power, motor, batteries and charger.

I haven't because I like the noise and the smells!
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2015, 07:51:11 PM »
Good afternoon.

I have been flying an electric Flite Streak trainer for some time and have been able to perform basic maneuvers.

What would be some suggestions for a second plane? My goal is to be able to do OTS or modern stunt one day.

Thank you very much.

Well, I would suggest a Voodoo with a modified Fox 36X combat engine on bladder pressure using 40%+ nitro.  Talk about a rush to fly.  Oh wait... you're talking about a STUNT-type airplane.

In that case... never mind! 

Carry on!

 ~>
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Dalton Hammett

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2015, 07:51:11 AM »
Well,  I'm no expert on equipment but our club is made up mostly of flyers in the learning stage.  I  agree with the Skyray and the Super Clown suggestions with the Super Clown coming out ahead.   The Skyray is a good stunt trainer and is a very solid plane but the Super Clown is a great flyer both with or without flaps,  it can fly with anything from a .19 to a .40 and  it is an old time design.  Our group has been having great success with them.  I have one I enjoy powered with an LA .25.
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Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2015, 01:11:42 AM »
I do thank you very much for your suggestions regarding this matter. I checked out the RSM site and I picked up their ready to fly Magician with electric setup. As I mentioned, glow fuel really gives me bad reactions. I am aware that it will take a lot of work to learn the different aerobatic maneuvers but I look forward to this.

I did consider the Brodak Super Clown and Ringmaster ARF, but I have seen a Youtube video that illustrates the weak motor mount as well as other issues regarding the Super Clown. As for kit building, I will do this the deeper I get into this activity. I am not afraid to build since I have built planes like the Olympic II, the Olympic 650, and the 3 meter Paragon as well as warbird foam kits by Leading Edge Gliders.

I have reached the point in which I am ready to learn the loop. One of my concerns regarding this comes from some of the videos I have seen in Youtube. One is of a Baby Ringmaster that, as it climbed up to do the inside loop, stalled halfway up and fell to the ground like a rock. In another, a Sig Akronmaster completed a loop but I saw that the pilot had to really walk backwards to keep the lines taut in the first loop. The second loop was a figure 9.

Thanks.

Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2015, 06:20:27 PM »
One more question.

I got the Magician (the 48 in. wingspan version). How much wingtip weight does it need?

Thanks.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2015, 06:53:20 PM »
I have reached the point in which I am ready to learn the loop. One of my concerns regarding this comes from some of the videos I have seen in Youtube. One is of a Baby Ringmaster that, as it climbed up to do the inside loop, stalled halfway up and fell to the ground like a rock. In another, a Sig Akronmaster completed a loop but I saw that the pilot had to really walk backwards to keep the lines taut in the first loop. The second loop was a figure 9.

One more question.

I got the Magician (the 48 in. wingspan version). How much wingtip weight does it need?

Thanks.

These are actually related questions -- too little tip weight can cause line tension problems.  In general too much tip weight causes lesser problems, so at your stage of the game I'd recommend that you go with one ounce of tip weight, and experiment with less as you go.  Basically, until you doing square maneuvers you shouldn't care too much if you have too much tip weight.

When you start doing loops -- do just one for starters.  Start high, make it big for the first half, go ahead and panic at the top and let it tighten up, and go ahead and come out of it much higher than you started.  When you can do one that doesn't come out much higher than you started, then work on consecutive loops.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2015, 06:58:47 PM »
One more question.

I got the Magician (the 48 in. wingspan version). How much wingtip weight does it need?

  Start with 3/4 ounce but make some provision for adjusting it. The tipweight adjustment is probably the most important. Adding tipweight always increases the *average* line tension, and the only place it really hurts is in hard corners. Having excess will tend to cover other trim issues that you might have, and until you resolve those, it's always safer to have more. The reason it hurts in corners is because it rolls away from you ("hinges") in the corner, and then it whips back in towards you a little later, after the corner ends.

     If you are just starting to learn basic maneuvers, then hard cornering is not a concern right now. You don't want to overdo it, but a little bit too much tipweight is a lot safer than too little. It would be very beneficial to find someone nearby with more experience to help you. There are so many small details that matter, but might not be considered over the internet, that live help is always a good idea. Even if it takes a pretty good drive, it will save time/airplanes in the long run. If you let is know where you are, we might be able to find an experienced volunteer.

     Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2015, 08:03:15 PM »
Battery weight has to be centered on the thrust line[.]

Motorman corrects yet another world champion's airplane configuration.
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Online James Mills

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2015, 08:28:22 PM »
You can use electric in OTS.  Don't let anyone tell otherwise!
DITTO.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2015, 09:20:59 PM »
Motorman corrects yet another world champion's airplane configuration.

  Some wit once called stunt flyers "pathologically original".

    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2015, 09:41:26 PM »
I haven't because I like the noise and the smells!

Electrics have their noises and smells, too, but they bode ill.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2015, 09:42:49 PM »
You can use electric in OTS.  Don't let anyone tell otherwise!

Analogously, I can think of several acts which are physiologically possible, yet abhorrent to me. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2015, 10:17:10 PM »
Electrics have their noises and smells, too, but they bode ill.

An amateur radio friend of mine referred to such things as "that expensive smell".
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2015, 10:26:59 PM »
An amateur radio friend of mine referred to such things as "that expensive smell".

   Electric stunt planes work on the magic smoke theory, too. Sometimes you can even see the flames themselves.

    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2015, 12:17:09 AM »
An amateur radio friend of mine referred to such things as "that expensive smell".

$135 in the last instance. More if the Holiday Inn Express in Houston charges me a cleaning fee for making smoke in a nonsmoking room. 
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Offline pat king

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2015, 08:32:02 AM »
My Shoestring is available in IC or Electric powered versions. At 53" span and 630 square inches it is a great flyer. www.pdkllc.com  Airplanes .45 to .59 size

Pat
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 08:48:58 AM by pat king »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2015, 10:30:16 AM »
$135 in the last instance. More if the Holiday Inn Express in Houston charges me a cleaning fee for making smoke in a nonsmoking room. 

At the team trials?  Isn't this the second time in as many years that you've stunk up a hotel room?  Or are you referring to the one time that you an Mr. Cox colluded to do so?

We need to design you an ammo can that sits on a hotel windowsill and vents to the outside.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2015, 07:37:10 PM »
Good evening.

As for assistance, one very kind gentleman not only eliminated the warps in my Magician, but also assisted me with test flying it. Although I have flown the Flite Streak trainer for 8 weekends (about 45 flights of about 3 minutes each), I wanted to make sure that an experienced flier tested it for me. At first the Magician looked intimidating in size and I did not want to wreck a 290 dollar plane (RTF with all electrics included).

The Magician proved to be more stable than my trainer, and smoother in response. The gentleman who offered to test fly it for me told me to spend some time familiarizing myself with its flying traits and responses. After this, he will start teaching me the stunts.

It does one lap in about 5.5 seconds on .015 x 60' lines.

I am really looking forward to start learning the pattern-at least OTS to begin with.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2015, 09:52:33 PM »
aba,

So far I have been of negative help, diverting the conversation here and there.  Two maybe-useful things of which I can think are: 1) it would probably be prudent to use a KR timer, because it shuts off the motor when the propeller hits the ground, and 2) 5.5 seconds per lap sounds a little poky. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2015, 10:41:55 PM »
Good evening.

As for assistance, one very kind gentleman not only eliminated the warps in my Magician, but also assisted me with test flying it. Although I have flown the Flite Streak trainer for 8 weekends (about 45 flights of about 3 minutes each), I wanted to make sure that an experienced flier tested it for me. At first the Magician looked intimidating in size and I did not want to wreck a 290 dollar plane (RTF with all electrics included).

The Magician proved to be more stable than my trainer, and smoother in response. The gentleman who offered to test fly it for me told me to spend some time familiarizing myself with its flying traits and responses. After this, he will start teaching me the stunts.

It does one lap in about 5.5 seconds on .015 x 60' lines.

I am really looking forward to start learning the pattern-at least OTS to begin with.

      Having help really, well, helps. You have noticed the same thing I did - that most trainers don't fly all that well, and that better airplanes are better.

    Having said that, you need to be prepared to crash it, and to repair it, and not let a single problem stop you. One of the biggest problems I see with many beginning stunt fliers is that they go to the field, have a single problem or holdup, and then give up for the day. You have to take chances to learn anything, and you can't be afraid of the predictable consequences. At the very least, take a well-equipped repair kit and be ready to replace almost anything or make major repairs in the field. There is very little you can do in the workshop you cannot do in the field. Take spares for all the hardware. If you crash, fix it right then and move on.

   Brett

Offline PerttiMe

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2015, 01:32:48 AM »
Now that you have your tricky trainer and a ship that flies better, perhaps it is time to start thinking of yet another one? Maybe a kit?
I built a Blue Pants as a kid. Wish I still had it. Might even learn to fly it.

Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane.
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2015, 03:08:53 PM »
I have now flown the Magician for about 4 weekends (about 20 flights of about 4 minutes each). I have been very impressed with its smooth handling compared to the Flite Streak trainer. I can now do almost full wingovers and fly climbs and dives, as well as keeping the plane circling high (at around 60 degrees from horizontal).

I would like to build a kit. I have built and flown 2 and 3 meter sailplanes like the Paragon, Oly 650, and Oly II. I have also built foam RC slope warbirds. Below are the planes I built; both took me about 2 months to built (I build slowly).

When I get more proficient in CL, I would like to get a plane like the Olympic but it seems like a complex build. Or a similar kit. The problem is that I tend to be nervous when building because I am aware that in CL one must build absolutely straight (cannot compensate warps with aileron trim like in RC).

Also, I don't have the time or tolerance to the chemicals that are used to produce these awesome jobs that I have seen in these beautiful aerobatic ships so I stick to Ultracote. The sailplanes in the photos are entirely covered in Ultracote.


Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2015, 03:22:32 PM »
First, you can go a hell of a long way with 'coat.  You won't win 20 points at the Nats (you'll always have seams), but you may be surprised at how well you can do at local contests.

Second, the way to get better at building straight is to build a lot.  It'll help with your RC building, too -- a plane with warps compensated by the radio doesn't fly nearly as well as a plane with no warps.  For that matter, as long as you get the tail feathers level with the wing you can deal with a warped wing by tweaking the flaps as well as you could with aileron trim.

Third, I suggest you choose a kit and just build it.  My suggestion would be a Sig Twister (particularly if you want to kit-bash it into a Fancherized Twister), or just about any profile plane with similar wing construction.  If you want to scratch-build and you don't mind not being able to compete in profile, consider Tom Neihbur's "Hobo" -- it'll be almost as easy to build and repair as a profile, and it'll look & fly slightly nicer.  (If there's a kit for the Hobo that someone knows about -- speak up!)

(I'm suggesting the Twister because the wing construction makes it easier to fix warps after the fact, and it makes it more survivable in a crash.  If you don't expect to crash very often, or if you build quick, go ahead and build a plane with a sheeted leading edge.  If you build it carefully on a jig it should be quite warp-free.)
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #43 on: November 15, 2015, 04:42:25 PM »
First, you can go a hell of a long way with 'coat.  You won't win 20 points at the Nats (you'll always have seams), but you may be surprised at how well you can do at local contests.

   I think the record for Monokote at the NATs is 14 points, shared by Allen Brickhaus and yours truly. Bill Fitzgerald's monokote airplane was actually much nicer than either of them, and I am not sure what he got. 14-15 points will not make any consequential difference  for the forseeable future.

      Brett

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #44 on: November 15, 2015, 05:01:32 PM »
You will find when you ask for help like this that there will be a flood of knowledgeable folks on here who will offer really good advice based on many many many combined years of experience and from what I have read In this thread, you have had really great suggestions from some really knowledgeable folks so I don't know what, if anything, I can offer that would be any better.  I can relate something someone once told me when I was at the stage of flying you seem to be at this moment.

An old friend of mine by the name of Allen Brickhaus and I were having a discussion about this very same subject some years ago and at the time , I was wanting to move past profiles and compete in old time stunt.  Allen, Charlie Reeves and I were all from the same area and the two of them were great OTS fliers and I could not have had better pilots and just wonderful people as those two to help me out.  Allen told me to buy two HUMONGOUS kits, a Ted Snow design, build them and use them to learn the OTS pattern.  I did and flew the heck out of them till I put both of them in the ground.  I didn't worry about 20 point finishes, I just made sure the wings were straight, covered them with some Polyspan, sprayed some Rustoleum on them and went flying.  And I had to get over being petrified I was going to crash them....it happens...even to the

Any of the suggestions here are good.  Pick one and run with it.

Mike

PS.  Today I use a lot of Ultracote covering thanks to Allen.  That was his favorite and turned out to be mine also.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 05:14:29 AM by Mike Griffin »

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #45 on: November 15, 2015, 05:27:09 PM »
DITTO.

James

True.  However you may find your scores suffer a bit when some of those "purists" that started the whole thing judge!   LL~ LL~ LL~

I can hear Mike Keville grumbling all the way from my house!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline bob whitney

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #46 on: November 16, 2015, 03:36:13 PM »


  Read the post guys !!!! i am looking forward to learning the PATTERN ,there are plenty of plastic ships out there ,even in expert, .it looks like he has a pretty good handle on Plastic .either O/T or PAMPA he has a way to go before he needs to worry about 20 point finish's. those sail planes look better than a lot of the planes at the field
rad racer

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane.
« Reply #47 on: November 16, 2015, 03:44:14 PM »
Also, I don't have the time or tolerance to the chemicals that are used to produce these awesome jobs that I have seen in these beautiful aerobatic ships so I stick to Ultracote. The sailplanes in the photos are entirely covered in Ultracote.

If you do get to the point where you're in Expert and being held back by a few appearance points then you can look into painting with urethanes -- without a cross-linker, urethane paint isn't fuel proof, but you get to have someone else squirt on a clear top-coat, and you can have that done with cross-linker.  Non cross-linked urethane underneath cross-linked clear should be plenty fuel proof enough for some dolt (probably me) spilling fuel on your plane in the pits, which is all you really need to worry about.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2015, 04:49:09 PM »
So far all of my planes have been entirely Monokote. (Well, iron on coverings) my finishes are always received well, and the great builders in my club are very complementary of my work with iron on. At first i was nervous to bring the Monokote jobs around such talented builders. But it seems they are impressed with my work, as i am with theirs. Building with the LVCB guys sure stepped up my level of wood work.

Oh, and my second airplane was a used SIG twister. Third was a used SIG banshee. I learned the pattern maneuvers on the banshee, out of sequence. Tied them together with the fourth airplane

Offline aba183210

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2015, 07:04:16 PM »
I do thank you for your replies and comments. So far, I have been flying the Magician every weekend, and last week I got the courage to attempt my first inside loops with the guidance of my instructor.

Some observations:

1. I noted that the Magician is easy to loop-all it needs is to keep holding a bit of up through the maneuver, and it does it slowly but with authority and without losing speed. It also requires relatively little up elevator travel (around 15 degrees tops).

2. I was very afraid to loop the plane at first because my previous attempts to do so with any sheet wing plane (i.e. Flite Streak trainer and similar) always ended up with near crashes-the plane simply refused to complete the maneuver. I wonder why these sheet wing planes I have had do this but the Magician does it effortlessly (and yes, when attempting to loop the flite streak trainer I began the maneuver with the wind I the proper direction). The wings were straight and everything was aligned properly and was using the recommended power plants.

3. Is the Magician airfoil the same as the Ringmaster? Sorry for asking but I would like to make sure.
I ordered a Ringmaster (standard size, electric from RSM Distrubution) for the Ringmaster Fly-a-Thon next year.

The next step in my training is to learn the lazy 8. I am taking my time to get confident with each maneuver before moving on.




Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2015, 07:24:10 PM »
2. I was very afraid to loop the plane at first because my previous attempts to do so with any sheet wing plane (i.e. Flite Streak trainer and similar) always ended up with near crashes-the plane simply refused to complete the maneuver. I wonder why these sheet wing planes I have had do this but the Magician does it effortlessly (and yes, when attempting to loop the flite streak trainer I began the maneuver with the wind I the proper direction). The wings were straight and everything was aligned properly and was using the recommended power plants.

    Flat plate airfoils stall at very low angle of attack, and once they stall, the lift available from the wing goes down dramatically. I would be impressed if you managed to successfully loop the Streak trainer. These models are absolutely not intended or expected to be stuntable. Very light similar models can fly recognizable patterns, but are still not very good at it.

Quote
3. Is the Magician airfoil the same as the Ringmaster? Sorry for asking but I would like to make sure.
I ordered a Ringmaster (standard size, electric from RSM Distrubution) for the Ringmaster Fly-a-Thon next year.

The next step in my training is to learn the lazy 8. I am taking my time to get confident with each maneuver before moving on.

    The airfoil on the Magician is *much better* than the airfoil on the Ringmaster. With a current modern engine with the right prop, you can fly Ringmasters through patterns with some success. With vintage engines, and with absolutely no modifications it takes a high degree of skill to successfully execute even a square loop without problems in the corners . They also stall at the drop of a hat. It was designed at a time when doing a loop or two was still a pretty big deal. It's better than the Streak trainer, but not nearly as good as the Magician.

    There are plenty of posts here to suggest problem areas and where you can improve the limitations of the Ringmaster. The most important is to set up the controls for only small amounts of movement, but closely behind that is to *use a good modern engine that spins a 4" pitch prop". Beefing up the areas that need it, and saving weight where safe to do so, are also important.

      Brett
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 02:20:32 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2015, 11:23:58 PM »
  The airfoil on the Magician is *much better* than the airfoil on the Ringmaster.

The charm of a Ringmaster isn't to go do the World's Best Pattern.  It's to survive the pattern and then brag about how many points you managed to wring out of a Ringmaster.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2015, 01:50:19 PM »
Whitely's white MonoKote Derringer at Reno Nat's in '84 was 15 points.
Chris...

   I think the record for Monokote at the NATs is 14 points, shared by Allen Brickhaus and yours truly. Bill Fitzgerald's monokote airplane was actually much nicer than either of them, and I am not sure what he got. 14-15 points will not make any consequential difference  for the forseeable future.

      Brett

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #53 on: December 13, 2015, 01:54:21 PM »
ABC,
The two Magician's that I had pretty much taught my dad in the 60's and me in the 70's to fly the pattern with Fox 35's powering them. Good design and should take you a long way. I repaired them both many times before completing the pattern and retiring them too. Good design.
Chris...

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #54 on: December 13, 2015, 02:19:32 PM »
Whitely's white MonoKote Derringer at Reno Nat's in '84 was 15 points.
Chris...


  Really?  I stand corrected.

    Nonetheless, I was pretty happy with the fact that my 14 pointer was crashed the day before we left, completely rebuilt and refinished, partly in motel rooms on the way, and had the canopy painted on with a brush literally in the parking lot at appearance judging. Aero-Gloss dries really fast in Lubbock, TX, when it's 103 degrees.

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2015, 05:47:44 PM »
  Really?  I stand corrected.

    Nonetheless, I was pretty happy with the fact that my 14 pointer was crashed the day before we left, completely rebuilt and refinished, partly in motel rooms on the way, and had the canopy painted on with a brush literally in the parking lot at appearance judging. Aero-Gloss dries really fast in Lubbock, TX, when it's 103 degrees.

    Brett

Good grief, Buck.  How do you remember this stuff?  Only thing I think I remember about Lubbock is that somebody got to meet a state trooper in Texas on the way home.  Oh wait...was that the year the Trivial Pursuit ground the prop down to the spinner on a "flawed" takeoff?

Ted

p.s.  Daddy Fitzgerald's monokoted Nobler was indeed special.  Bill took whatever time it took to do everything perfectly.  Took him all day to drill out a motor mount but they were perfect holes when he was done.  He embarrassed me into buying a full set of number, letter and fraction drills.  Prior to that I had three bits.  A small one for small holes, a big one for big holes and a crooked one for everything in between.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Suggestions for a second plane
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2015, 08:36:14 PM »
Good grief, Buck.  How do you remember this stuff?  Only thing I think I remember about Lubbock is that somebody got to meet a state trooper in Texas on the way home.  Oh wait...was that the year the Trivial Pursuit ground the prop down to the spinner on a "flawed" takeoff?

  You were blaming me, without actually saying it, for one of those, until Bill did it too, and the same thing happened a few more times.

    Brett


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