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Author Topic: Stunting Basics - the WES element  (Read 9934 times)

Offline Terry Caron

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Stunting Basics - the WES element
« on: June 16, 2016, 08:50:16 PM »
There is encyclopedic knowledge available here and from other sources on airframes, engines, props, fuel, glow plugs, line length, tip weight, tail volume, flap area ad infinitum - in short, practically any aspect of stunt flying one might have questions about.
For anyone who's attained at least some competence in flying, those are areas very worthwhile to explore in order to progress in the hobby/sport.
But (and maybe I'm the only one) I'm not even a competent flyer.
As much as I enjoy it, as much time, $$, thought, effort and interest as I put into it, I can scarcely fly smooth, level laps (I have managed a few wingovers and outside loops, but at the cost of a few airplanes too!).
While all those technical/mechanical elements referred to earlier play their part, I, the pilot, am really the "first cause" determining what the plane does. Practice may make perfect but only if I know the correct things to practice.
And I realize I have no idea what I SHOULD do, in any critically examined sense, to make my plane do a (pick any maneuver) in terms of how my wrist, elbow and shoulder (WES) movements should combine to make that thing happen.
And I've never found a single word about this aspect of stunt flying on any of the forums, though maybe I just don't enter the correct search terms. While I realize this is not a simple mechanical function, quantifiable such that N% wrist, elbow and shoulder movement will produce X maneuver, it seems it might be a discussable topic and I wonder:
There are those on the forum who seemingly analyze every aspect of their flying in order to improve just that one little thing that one tiny bit that'll add a point, and no fault in that, so have any of you studied these components of the control system, can these movements be analyzed in any useful sense, or is it simply a matter of "do different things 'til something starts to work"?
I watch other flyers with (to me) admirable skills and each seems to have his own "style", waving his arm around, producing a wondrous aerial ballet on a 120' x 60' bluesky stage, while I aspire to simply keeping my and my plane's nose out of the dirt.
Or, at soon-to-be 70, should I just take up knitting?  ;D

Terry



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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2016, 09:09:00 PM »
Bend your elbow slightly -- about 20 degrees off of straight, and with your elbow sticking out slightly.  If you try it and it's awkward, either I didn't state it well or you're not doing it right.

Now hold your handle upright, with your thumb resting on the top of the handle.  When you're flying Really Well you'll want to be sighting down your thumb to the airplane -- for now, hold it lined up but in the lower half of your vision.  Steer the plane with your wrist, and follow it with your hand, with your elbow always slightly bent.

You keep your elbow bent so that you are supporting the plane with your muscles and not just the tendons of your joints -- this is handy for being able to fly next year (and maybe even drive).  You keep it slightly bent so that when the fertilizer encounters the blower you can yank the plane back, giving yourself time to start dashing back.

Unless you've irrevocably trained yourself to lay your hand level when you fly inverted -- don't.  But if you have, take heart -- there's some top pilots who indulge themselves with this bad habit.

Try to train yourself to walk backwards in a circle as you fly.  It's easier on the joints, it whips the plane slightly, and you're always poised for that mad backwards dash to save a plane.

If you search for them, there are some good movies of various top pilots flying.  Some of them cut between the pilot and the plane, or focus on the pilot, giving you the chance to study their moves.  It's never too early or too late to get better at stunt -- the Fireballs had a guy who took three years to learn to fly inverted; he managed it because he did not give up.

Best of luck.
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2016, 09:15:15 PM »
Oh -- here's a comment about arm motion while flying stunt vs. combat.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2016, 09:20:10 PM »
Be the plane na na na na na.....



MM
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2016, 10:14:43 PM »
Be the plane na na na na na.....



MM
If Lacy Underall walks onto the flying feild I will crash,, just sayin

on to the reality of this post, go to a contest, watch the experts fly, or go on yourtube and look up videos.
I know there is a video of Paul Walker flying, and maybe Ted Fancher as well
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2016, 10:47:55 PM »
Thanks for the responses, guys.
I figured the original post was long enough without commenting on what I'm aware that I do, or intend to do.
I do hold the handle vertically w/o top-thumb, hand below my sightline to the plane yet fully visible, bend my elbow to some (not necessarily consistent) angle, try to "paint" with my arm loops and wingovers (I'm thinking the handle goes pretty much parallel to the wing then) without any wrist input that I'm aware of.
I've tried "sighting" with the handle top as I fly but it felt stiff and forced.
I haven't attempted inverted - as I said, smooth level flight isn't a slam-dunk yet.
So far, 1 vote for "no wrist", 1 for "wrist".  ;D

Terry
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2016, 11:08:48 PM »
A Cross between Flying a Kite, Fishing, and riding a Bicycle ! . As Far as the Handle Goes . ;D In ' the actions ' or body talk ( in newspeak  %^@) .

Pays To PRACTICE walking in a circle on the spot , too .

Swing the right leg 120 dgrees , lift and replace left foot rotated 120 deg. To avoid a spiral wound leg . You can get around in three relaxed steps .

If all thats second nature , some people hide in their basment ( so the neighbours cant see ) With a Handle in their hand , Practise the schedule ,
without the aeroplane or wires .

Learners I get to ' practise the Moves , so theyve got ' the steps ' before they get to try it with the Aeroplane .
That way theyre not trying to assymilate SIX things Simultaeneously .

At The Field , if the background ( trees / Buildings etc) is close , theyre visual distractions that take 1/2 doz. flights to become visually secondary,
so standing out at the center & Noting ' the background ' gets the visual assimilation delt with previously too . So you dont get disorented flying .

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2016, 11:39:49 PM »

Pays To PRACTICE walking in a circle on the spot , too .

Swing the right leg 120 dgrees , lift and replace left foot rotated 120 deg. To avoid a spiral wound leg . You can get around in three relaxed steps .

I'm confused, Matt - while I understand the foot movement you describe, I thought "walking the circle" was walking the perimeter of an actual (not necessarily lines-on-the-ground) circle.
I do put some mental attention to walking a circle, but it's hardly second nature and I stumble fairly often in keeping my legs untangled.  n~
And my "circle" wanders a good bit around the field - buddies yell "Move back - you almost hit me!!"  ;D
Maybe an actual striped circle would help.

At The Field , if the background ( trees / Buildings etc) is close , theyre visual distractions that take 1/2 doz. flights to become visually secondary,
so standing out at the center & Noting ' the background ' gets the visual assimilation delt with previously too . So you dont get disorented flying .

I've been flying (such as it is) for a couple years now, so dizziness and background interference are not a real problem.
And it occurs to me that walking the circle is a way to minimize dizziness, and with that not being a big issue for me, practicing your "dance steps" seems a good move up the learning-to-fly ladder.

Terry
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2016, 12:00:30 AM »
I read the topic Tim linked to above, so there has been some discussion of the principles I'm asking about.
I must say, Randy's comments on index and pinkie movements would be quite intimidating, considering the comparatively sledgehammeresque movements I'm concerned about, if I had anything more than fun-flying in mind.
Thank goodness I'm not interested in competing - I can't imagine the flying hours required to achieve a competency demanding that degree of finesse - hat's off to Randy!

Terry
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2016, 12:11:25 AM »
I think Ty is thinking that you're much less advanced than you are.  Stiff-arming the controls is good when you're first beginning, but once you're not crashing every flight you should be thinking about using your wrist.

If you want to learn inverted, do lazy eights.  When you can do 'em comfortably, stretch them out more and more.  Eventually, you'll be doing inverted laps.

As for getting good -- just do it.  Ideally I'd do six flights, twice a week.  I haven't been managing nearly that for a couple of years -- I suppose that means I should step it up.
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Offline M Spencer

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2016, 12:35:54 AM »
Quote
I'm confused, Matt

Here , in their basement , is the Scotish F2B Team , Pactising their manouvres .



Quote
And my "circle" wanders a good bit around the field - buddies yell "Move back - you almost hit me!!" 

Scotish F2C team workout .


Offline Pat Chewning

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2016, 01:02:11 AM »
This is what my daughter thinks is good control-line technique:   


Offline Mel Gray

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2016, 06:36:57 AM »
Hi Terry,

I have always been partial to this book, "How to Fly U-Control" by Dick Mathis.  I've had my copy a long time.  Here's the Amazon link :

https://www.amazon.com/How-Fly-U-Control-Dick-Mathis/dp/B0006CM3LQ

Perhaps your local library might have a copy.  Libraries used to have such books on their shelves.  Hopefully still do.

Not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but Mr. Mathis has a way of breaking out the various maneuver elements and explaining how to fly them.


Mel Gray
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Offline Jim Catevenis

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2016, 06:49:25 AM »
Hi Terry.

I have read the replies to your post and there is a lot of good information there.  I have helped a few first time or low time pilots get started and there are a few things I teach them before they get on the handle.  First, check the plane's center of gravity to be sure that is either correct per the plans or slightly forward.  Second, check the sensitivity of the controls.  If your plane has a lot of flap/elevator movement with very little handle input, this will cause you to over control every time.  You can usually correct this at the plane but if the controls are internal, your last option to correct this is to narrow the line spacing at the handle.  I had one friend that was all over the sky and I narrowed the line spacing from 4 inches to 3 inches and he flew smooth and steady on the next flight.  I would check these things before your next flight and see if this corrects some of your problems.  I hope this helps you and remember, we have all crashed a bunch of planes before we knew or thought we knew what we were doing!

Jim

Offline David_Stack

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2016, 08:43:01 AM »
Good Morning Terry;

  Go to that video viewing site (the 'Tube' one), and do a search on "F2B schedule - Study of stunt pilot".

r/
Dave

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2016, 08:43:30 AM »
As stated earlier, watch other guys fly, especially the better ones.  Each and every person has their way of doing it.  But, the biggest factor is having a plane that flies right.  Don't be afraid top ask a better pilot to fly your plane.   Take his advice and use it.  That is my big problem is that I forget what I've been told.  Remember to also have fun,  I find when I start not having fun, someone has to kick my back side or I go get an old beater and just play.   Nothing like a Bi-Slob to get the mind back in gear.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2016, 11:02:36 AM »
The best thing about this site is the great support available - I appreciate (in one way or another  ;D) each response.

Tim: I live ~70 mi from my buddies' flying site, so 2-3 flights every 6 weeks is about as good as it gets for me.
I'll soon move to AL, but I'll still be ~55 mi from Ty and NACA's site. I hope to fly more then.

Matt & Pat: it's obvious, watching those videos, that I'm not nearly flexible or athletic enough to fly stunt! (Y'know anything about knitting?)  LL~

Mel: Great! I wasn't aware there was such a book by Mathis - I'll start saving my pennies to get a copy.

Jim: I have one model, a Sterling .15 P-40, that's super-squirrelly to me. Next opportunity, I'll try it with less throw.

Dave: I'll do that - excellent tip.

And Doc - I don't know whether to laugh or cry: my last flying session, I flew an old Sterling Mustang bought 2nd-hand from an old "retired" flyer and, for the first time, felt I had a model that really inspired confidence. I didn't try to do anything more than roller-coasters, but (at least in my mind) I could fly smooth and level laps with it.
Oh, happy day!
So I asked a flying buddy who's flown for decades to try it out, see what it could do - short story, in the middle of a loop the control rod popped out of the flap horn and it rekitted.  :'(  :'(  :'(

Terry
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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2016, 11:19:35 AM »
Hi Terry,
After the great advice form the guys above, it sounds to me after your last comment that your "squirrelly" model could be the actual reason for holding you back. Just like most things in life, a great short-cut is to ask the experts for practical help on the flying field. Let a good stunt pilot suss out your model and maybe that will solve everything. You sure can't get used to a bad model by loads of practice. A really good and simple model that Brett Buck and many others recommend is the Sig Skyray with a .20 or .25 on it. You don't need flaps for a trainer at all.

Once you have a reasonable model, then practice level flight upright and inverted plus good round inside and outside loops. This is like playing scales on a musical instrument and is the basis of fly all of the other maneuvers.

Keith R
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2016, 11:55:00 AM »
Tim: I live ~70 mi from my buddies' flying site, so 2-3 flights every 6 weeks is about as good as it gets for me.
I'll soon move to AL, but I'll still be ~55 mi from Ty and NACA's site. I hope to fly more then.

I know this isn't necessarily a solution, but consider an electric, at least for the purposes of practicing.  A regulation soccer field or a baseball diamond will hold a full-sized model, and if you're there when it's not being used then there's a good chance that you'll be able to fly without bugging anyone.  Smaller spaces will fly smaller models, and electric power systems get pretty darned inexpensive as you go down in size.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2016, 12:09:33 PM »
Hi Keith -
Actually, last session was the first time I've flown either the Sterling P-40 or the Mustang.
Previous flying/crashing has been with .20 FP or Fox .35 on ARF Flight Streaks (I recently picked up another from a fellow forum member - waiting 'til after the AL move to assemble it), a salvaged Cardinal/.46 LA (R.I.P) and a mongrel I call the Sterling-Flite RingStreakster - an orphan FS wing in a RM fuselage/tail feathers and my longest-lasting plane to date.
No doubt, lack of confidence is a real problem for me as I never really feel that a plane is in my control, more that I'm reacting to what it does, trying to get it to do what I thought I was inputting in the first place.
One of my buddies built a 1/2A corroplast/arrow shaft trainer for his 7 yo son (who can fly better than I!) which might be a good, cheap confidence builder that I could fly at home w/a stooge.
But I'll keep trying to improve and I know crashing is simply part of the "cost of business".

Tim - I appreciate your suggestion and it may be monumental foolishness on my part but the real impetus for my getting back into C/L after 55-ish years was to experience the big planes and engines I couldn't afford as a tad, and that's still what makes it enjoyable, even with the crashing.

Terry
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2016, 12:14:58 PM »
Tim - I appreciate your suggestion and it may be monumental foolishness on my part but the real impetus for my getting back into C/L after 55-ish years was to experience the big planes and engines I couldn't afford as a tad, and that's still what makes it enjoyable, even with the crashing.

I understand -- read my tagline.  Although, if it came down to a choice between flying electric and not flying, I'd go electric.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2016, 12:20:43 PM »
I'll go electric when they pry the Fox .35 from my cold, dead hands!!!  ;D

Terry

Another thought:
My only trip to the Nats, a treasured memory from '96, I wasn't an AMA member but was allowed to volunteer as an Official to help the real flyers (have the hat and pin to prove it  ;D).
While there, I also built, nights in the hotel, a 1/2 A Skyray with Nats stickers on the wing as a souvenir. I put a Golden Bee on it and it's hung on my wall ever since.
Would that be capable of basic maneuvers?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2016, 12:38:36 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2016, 12:34:35 PM »
Hi Terry,
After the great advice form the guys above, it sounds to me after your last comment that your "squirrelly" model could be the actual reason for holding you back. Just like most things in life, a great short-cut is to ask the experts for practical help on the flying field. Let a good stunt pilot suss out your model and maybe that will solve everything. You sure can't get used to a bad model by loads of practice. A really good and simple model that Brett Buck and many others recommend is the Sig Skyray with a .20 or .25 on it. You don't need flaps for a trainer at all.

Once you have a reasonable model, then practice level flight upright and inverted plus good round inside and outside loops. This is like playing scales on a musical instrument and is the basis of fly all of the other maneuvers.

Keith R

Bravo, Keith.  Over many years I've been asked to fly up and coming fliers airplanes to evaluate them.  Very often, I found it advisable to not fly other than the most basic maneuvers with them due to their poor state of trim.  I strongly advise Terry to ask a truly accomplished flier (at the risk of offending...a flier who flies excellent patterns with his own airplane without acrobatic flailing of the handle and the arm to which it is attached to do so.  Generally speaking such excessive pilot input is necessary solely to overcome shortcomings of the airplane's trim and/or powerplant set-up.)  Based on Terry's recent comments about sensitivity I'd be willing to bet a good trimming session along with an informational conversation about what is being done and why would be a great first step.

I realize it isn't always easy to find someone like this in some areas and I've no magic fix for that.  Terry should let us know where he lives and maybe he'll get some suggestions.

Keith's suggestion of the Skyray and the Brett Buck set-up is absolutely on the money as well.

Ted Fancher

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2016, 12:58:45 PM »
Your advice is well-taken, Ted, and in fact Mike Londke is one of the local group in the Nashville, TN area.
I certainly can't critique his skills, but judges for multiple wins in several combat classes and more recently 1st place in Intermediate Stunt have, to his credit.  :)
He's offered to go in the circle with me but, with his understandable need to practice and a most commendable commitment to teach his son, Sam, to fly stunt we haven't been able to make it happen.
As mentioned above, I'll soon move to Al where I hope to meet and join the fellows in NACA sometime this summer.
I'll have fun, even if I'm beyond their help.  ;D

Terry
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2016, 01:35:28 PM »
Keith's suggestion of the Skyray and the Brett Buck set-up is absolutely on the money as well.

It's been moved and seconded, allow me to put in the first "aye" vote.  Build a Skyray 35, make it straight and true, put the CG, tip weight and the lines where Brett says, and it'll be pretty darned close to the best trim you can put it in.  Then go fly, remembering to check every once in a while for wing warps.

Flaps complicate trim!  Particularly if you're flying without much support, flying something without flaps significantly eases things.  Until you get up to being a solid pilot, you'll be holding yourself back far more than the lack of flaps will.  I know I'm thinking like a competition stunt guy here, but I think this applies to sport as well.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2016, 02:04:09 PM »
Jeez - you rich guys and your "spend more money" solutions!
You guys Democrats by any chance?  LL~  LL~

I truly do appreciate your suggestions and desire to help but honestly, it would embarrass YOU to know my SS income - I'd need stilts to see the Poverty Line!  ;D
I have the .20 FP so is another Flight Streak ARF or a Sig Banshee (buildable unflapped if better) an acceptable option to the Skyray?
I also have an Akromaster kit, plus donated/rebuildable Brodak Cardinal, Pathfinder and P-40 ARFs and a .46LA.
A top priority in AL is to put a shop with building space into an outbuilding.

Terry

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2016, 04:05:54 PM »
A Flight Streak would work with a 20FP -- but isn't the price of a Flight Streak ARF about the same or less than a Skyray kit?  Or is it that you already have the Flight Streak?

My comments about the Skyray more or less apply to the Flight Streak, except that the CG as shown on the plans (unless they've changed it) is way too far back -- you want to put it 1 5/8" back from the leading edge, then dig up a copy of Line III and locate the leadouts where it says with respect to the CG.

I think a Sig Banshee would be too big for an FP 20, unless you built it really light, which would mean leaving a bunch of the kit wood in the box, which circles back around to your fixed income -- but while a Sig Banshee is on the small side for a 46 LA, it's not too small for one (the 46LA is wonderfully versatile).  I think any of the "bigger" planes you mention would be fine for a 46LA, although if you're still struggling with trim issues you might want to build your next thing with fixed flaps.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2016, 06:01:19 PM »
My apologies for not being clear enough, Tim.
I already have the FS ARF, because it was quite reasonable ( I think they've recently been discontinued?) and I can assemble it w/o a real building bench.
In addition to 2 .20 FPs (ABN & iron/steel) and the .46LA, in the last couple years, with birthdays, Santa Claus and eBay (my friend  :)), I've accumulated a few Fox and one ea. Forster and Enya .35s, an Enya and Veco .19, a Forster .29 FRV (remember the "nostalgia" part of my return to C/L?  ;D) plus a .25 FP ABN, an Enya .25 SS S and a Saito FA .40, so I have several more or less suitable engines for the kits/rekits on hand.
The 2 Sig kits were given to me by my brother just before he passed away a few years ago, but I haven't had place to build them - soon to be rectified.
I was pretty sure the FS/.20 FP BBTU were comparable to the Skyray/FP, and it's a combo I've crashed twice already.
I will say that, for good or ill, the lack of noticeable line tension is a bit unnerving for me, though in all honesty, line tension on the Cardinal (for the short time it flew) and the RingStreakster/Fox. 35 haven't inspired real confidence either.
In essence, it's not really a lack of suitable models/engines, nor a lack of sufficient performance for good learning from the ones I have/had - it's that I basically don't know what the H I'm up to. As a young feller, all my brother and I ever did was fly 1/2 As around in a circle, at the time more than enough to keep us happy.
MOF, if I never learn to perform the maneuvers, I'll content myself with circles, roller-coasters and semi-wingovers and be grateful for a wonderful time building, circling, crashing, fiddling with engines on the bench and interacting with great folks on the field and forums. It is, after all, only about simple fun.
Getting better at stunts will simply gild this particular lily for me.

Terry

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2016, 06:07:22 PM »
I was pretty sure the FS/.20 FP BBTU were comparable to the Skyray/FP, and it's a combo I've crashed twice already.
I will say that, for good or ill, the lack of noticeable line tension is a bit unnerving for me, though in all honesty, line tension on the Cardinal (for the short time it flew) and the RingStreakster/Fox. 35 haven't inspired real confidence either.

Only twice?  Pffft.  That's just getting warmed up!  Seriously, crashing is just going to happen when you're learning -- we can't put you up ten dumb-thumbs high like the RC'ers do.  Did you save the pieces?  Flight Streaks are surprisingly rebuildable -- if you were to post a picture you'd get suggestions.  Of course, a real building board helps a lot.

I'm not sure how much line tension you'd notice, but you should see just a bit of downward bow to the lines (less than the backwards bow) as you're flying around.  If the lines are sagging more than that, then you've got some trim issue going on.

I wish you were closer -- I'd tell you to get your a$$ over here so I could check out what you're doing!
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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2016, 06:31:48 PM »
And I'd be pleased to accept your invitation, Tim, if I were closer.
But don't forget, I've more than those 2 F/S (3 actually - forgot I rebuilt it one time) crashes under my belt .  ;D
Which reminds me that I have an unfinished rebuilt FS wing and homebrew rest-of-a-plane in my stash.
AH! A bench! A bench! My kingdom for a bench!
(Too much?)  ;D

I currently have the .20 FP on the RingStreakster so next outing I'll note the line bow. Thanks for the tip.

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2016, 06:50:58 PM »
Hi Terry. When you do get to Alabama, call me and I am more than willing to come up to you to help you advance in your pattern.  I have two new Shoestring Stunter kits and I'll build them for you to practice with as I  have done three for two guys in the club getting into the pattern.  I'll bet I can get two or three guys to come up with me. More the merrier and we can all re-kit at least one each. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

Ty, you're officially on record with your offer, so you can't back out.  H^^
I'll definitely contact you when I get settled in enough to spare some time for flying. MOF, I joined AMA for the first time a month ago in anticipation of flying with y'all.
And while very generous, you may want to hold your Shoestrings 'til I've gone through my supply - shouldn't take long.  LL~
My cousin will be next door in AL and has a large field adjacent he uses to store his toys (he likes construction equipment and house boats) which may or may not be suitable/available for a sometime flying site. I'll have to see how that develops.

Thanks.

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Offline Motorman

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2016, 09:06:56 PM »
If Lacy Underall walks onto the flying feild I will crash,, just sayin

on to the reality of this post, go to a contest, watch the experts fly, or go on yourtube and look up videos.
I know there is a video of Paul Walker flying, and maybe Ted Fancher as well

Actually my point was don't be such a left brainer.

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2016, 11:56:01 AM »
Bravo, Keith.  Over many years I've been asked to fly up and coming fliers airplanes to evaluate them.  Very often, I found it advisable to not fly other than the most basic maneuvers with them due to their poor state of trim.  I strongly advise Terry to ask a truly accomplished flier (at the risk of offending...a flier who flies excellent patterns with his own airplane without acrobatic flailing of the handle and the arm to which it is attached to do so.  Generally speaking such excessive pilot input is necessary solely to overcome shortcomings of the airplane's trim and/or powerplant set-up.)  Based on Terry's recent comments about sensitivity I'd be willing to bet a good trimming session along with an informational conversation about what is being done and why would be a great first step.

I realize it isn't always easy to find someone like this in some areas and I've no magic fix for that.  Terry should let us know where he lives and maybe he'll get some suggestions.

Keith's suggestion of the Skyray and the Brett Buck set-up is absolutely on the money as well.

     I can only echo this sentiment - since Ted told me about it in the first place! So many people have such severe trim/setup issues that they have no chance of ever learning anything, other than how to respond to the rather random things that their airplane happens to do. You can *never* hope to have any feel for flying the stunts with the various airplanes/engines I see people try to fly. I fly them and can barely do any better than they do.

    Plenty of people have different approaches and different standards as to what constitutes "good trim", a "good airplane"  or otherwise. Many of these people have only the best intentions but either don't know any better (since they are in the same boat) or have some sort of axe to grind. That's why I get into so many arguments about it on-line - there are so many people with such sincere advice, most of it horrifically wrong, that they get angry when someone comes along and contradicts it.

   Much of the issue *is not* which design you use. Some designs are very poor, to be sure, but the design is the *very last* issue they have - it's workmanship (particularly in the control system and alignment), trim, and engine runs/engine setup. The latter, in particular, can be utterly fatal, and there is so much bad advice about it that it's almost overwhelming.

   My recommendations are well-known and have been covered exhaustively. The reason for my recommendation is that you need to know virtually nothing about engines to get it to run well *as long as you don't have anyone around to "help you" by messing it iup with "expert engine knowledge", and the airplane is simple enough to build, set up the control system and trim that you have a chance without expert help. And Ted notes an important additional point - "expert" might mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and many people who the beginner might consider an expert might not  be- just more experienced in overcoming the same problems that the beginner has, too. The "wild flailing" at the handle is actually a pretty good indicator of how well someone else's airplane is trimmed that I hadn't considered before now. You see it even at the NATS, in some people around the fringe of qualifying. You see terrible trim everywhere at even the very highest levels, and there are a few people who I decline to mention that would be (or would have been in some cases) sure contenders if they had someone competent adjust the airplane and engine.


 But most of the designs mentioned, aside from the Ringmaster, would be adequate *if everything was right about them*. But you need proper control system setup, proper trim, and at least an engine that is not hurting you (as opposed to fighting you, which MANY of them do). All have known issues - the Cardinal has far too much flap area (like most of the similar airplanes) and is hard to build and trim, the Twister is relatively difficult to build and trim to the degree necessary.  They Flite Streak/20FP is a very capable system that is relatively easy to build and trim correctly and is by far the best choice in this case although the CG can be a hair trigger sort of thing. The Skyray 35 is essentially a Flite streak with an adequate tail volume coefficient. Ringmaster is a non-starter, any vintage engine is more-or-less a non-starter, 1/2As should be considered a non-starter for beginning stunt pilots after the initial carnage of learning to fly safely is over.

   But expert help - with a genuine expert - is worth more than anything you can possibly do on the equipment side, and worth extensive effort and travel to employ. With everything right, even very modest airplanes can be brought from disaster to satisfactory.

 An astonishing amount of information is available  on-line compared to any time before, to the point that sorting out the trash from the treasure is sometimes difficult, so you have a chance by yourself, but there are so many things that a beginner wouldn't even know to ask about that real live help is very important.

     Brett

p.s. the original topic of  - wrist -elbow - shoulder is also a very interesting one, and should include fingers as well. Simple posture issues usually cause the sort of persistent shape errors that persist over years/decades you see all the time. For my money, most of the  control comes from the fingers and wrist, and you have to use the elbow and shoulder you probably have some other issue, likely trim or power, at leas as of the year 2016. Used to, you more-or-less had to use your entire body to make the airplane work because everybody had engine issues, because all the engines were almost uniformly crap, just to different degrees, compared to today.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2016, 12:34:33 PM »

   But expert help - with a genuine expert - is worth more than anything you can possibly do on the equipment side, and worth extensive effort and travel to employ. With everything right, even very modest airplanes can be brought from disaster to satisfactory.
EXPERT help, This has been the biggest factor for me, but one caveat to this, LISTEN to what the expert is telling you, dong argue or disagree. If you dont understand by all means ask but dont tell the man who is spending his time freely to try to help  you that he "Is wrong" , tell him "I dont understand, this doesnt seem right" then LISTEN. It has been a huge factor especially lately getting to rub shoulders with Paul occasionaly. HUGE difference


An astonishing amount of information is available  on-line compared to any time before, to the point that sorting out the trash from the treasure is sometimes difficult, so you have a chance by yourself, but there are so many things that a beginner wouldn't even know to ask about that real live help is very important.

as with all things, Religion, facebook and life in general, the secret is knowing who to watch, who to listen to, and who to ignore,,



p.s. the original topic of  - wrist -elbow - shoulder is also a very interesting one, and should include fingers as well. Simple posture issues usually cause the sort of persistent shape errors that persist over years/decades you see all the time. For my money, most of the  control comes from the fingers and wrist, and you have to use the elbow and shoulder you probably have some other issue, likely trim or power, at leas as of the year 2016. Used to, you more-or-less had to use your entire body to make the airplane work because everybody had engine issues, because all the engines were almost uniformly crap, just to different degrees, compared to today.

It is amazing how easily bad physical things creep into your flying, I am still trying to fight off the "arm to the side" issue that gives me major grief during horizantal and square eights,, It came from trying to fly and airplane out of trim, basiclly my control response was too numb so I ended up using a lot of arm and shoulder to make the squares,,
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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2016, 12:46:07 PM »
EXPERT help, This has been the biggest factor for me, but one caveat to this, LISTEN to what the expert is telling you, dong argue or disagree. If you dont understand by all means ask but dont tell the man who is spending his time freely to try to help  you that he "Is wrong" , tell him "I dont understand, this doesnt seem right" then LISTEN. It has been a huge factor especially lately getting to rub shoulders with Paul occasionaly. HUGE difference


   Arguments are not necessarily bad, but any argument you might have *should* have a pretty good answer that will clear it up for you (and maybe you will *both* learn something). There is very little that is worse in life than having someone telling you to do something and then refusing to explain why, or just tossing off "because I said so". Search the threads about handle neutral or "bias" for both positive and negative examples.

     Brett

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2016, 01:34:32 PM »
This is in no sense to be argumentative with any statements made anyone, but I'll point out that, at my level of flying "expertise", finer points of design, trim, power delivery and such are not my concern. ONE plane that I've flown ONE time has severe trim issues to the point that it was NO fun to fly.
Not to minimize those subjects to any degree but to clarify, none of the fellows I fly with are experts, only one is a competitor (and only in the last few months at that), none have any real interest in why a PA is better than the engine they use and I'd be completely satisfied to fly as well as any of them do, with planes no better. I'm almost 70 and have no desire to compete at the Nats.
To make use of a well-known concept, I couldn't fly significantly better right now if I had Randy's or Kaz's planes (their coaching is a different matter).
And I've crashed the FS/BBTU setup 3 times - no, not expertly trimmed but unquestionably "fun flyable".
My point being - I can't attribute a single crash to a "hardware" issue of ANY sort - it's ME, not knowing the correct physical, human inputs/responses at the handle.
I suspect most of us are grateful to receive whatever more experienced help we can get, expert or no, muddle through whatever misinformation is offered in a sincere desire to help and, I suppose, at some point find ourselves content to fly at less than stellar level - I certainly am.
No doubt, I could possibly learn much quicker and easier not to crash with an optimized setup but again, to refocus, there is online info on seemingly EVERY aspect of the hobby except what to do with the handle, including WHICH handle to do something with and how to fine tune IT.
I'm not expecting that anyone cure my flying faults online, rather wanting a conversation to initiate dissemination of information which may be available in the recesses of experienced flyers' minds.
Golf being a prime example, most any (maybe every) other sport has volumes written on what to do with your body to improve your game and I suspect any forum for golf would have countless threads on every single body motion that affects the game.
It may well be that it's a subject not amenable to any degree of dissection and discussion as it pertains to c/l flying, that one must simply learn to "be the plane" ( ;D), each must "reinvent the wheel" and that no one has ever critically examined exactly what his wrist, elbow and shoulder are doing, but an awareness of index and pinkie movement seem to argue otherwise.

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2016, 02:09:51 PM »
This is in no sense to be argumentative with any

<snip>

"reinvent the wheel" and that no one has ever critically examined exactly what his wrist, elbow and shoulder are doing, but an awareness of index and pinkie movement seem to argue otherwise.

Well, yes, we've pulled the thread off track.  But that's because beginners often think they're suffering from one problem when they're actually suffering from another.  We've seen in happen, we know the signs, we do our best.  In particular, "no noticeable line tension" rings a big red bell, and the label on the bell is "severe trim problems!!!".  So we really are trying to help you with your underlying problem, which is that you've stalled out at a level far below what one could reasonably expect.  I could do the full pattern long before I stopped waving my arms around (and it took considerable ribbing from my peers, and considerable practice at home, before I got out of the habit).  The severity of the problems you report don't match the arm-shoulder-wrist motions that you report -- so we're back to wondering if the plane is set up correctly, and, again, we're trying to help.

As to the discussion & direction & whatnot on posture and technique -- I think you've gotten about as full a set of directions as can be done without writing a book, and you've been given a homework assignment which should clarify things a whole lot more than a book.  So -- get on YouTube, and do your homework!  Key names to look for are Paul Walker and Igor Burger, and after that go find the results of the last few AMA Nationals and World Championships, and search on the names of the top five in each of those.  There will be videos, and some of them will be highly instructive about how to hold your WES.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2016, 02:41:15 PM »
and furthermore, if you cannot complete simple maneuvers like loops , without managing your arms wrist and body in a calm posture, then there is a problem with the plane

trust me, and Tim and ll who posted here, took the time to write out a well written comment, what they are saying is directly relevant to your question.
everything is a system, on piece will not work without the others in coordination.



THis one below really shows him during the flight, perhaps this is more what you were actually thinking you wanted to see?



Here is Brett Buck going through the pattern, another person who is "stable" at circle center


I cant find any of David F,

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2016, 03:12:21 PM »
Here is a video of me, minutes 7:30-10:00, flying my first FS, also the Cardinal.
It may provide some insight to my problems.
FWIW, at the time the loopy things were intended to be wingovers.
Probably my 4th-5th flight after a 55 year pause.



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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2016, 04:09:44 PM »
From the short few seconds after takeoff of the FS, it looked to me like the handle neutral was a bit off, holding a bit of "up" for level flight. It matters a lot.

I'd suggest getting or making a hardpoint handle for each model, to get more feel for the model. A light handle helps, especially with smaller engines and planes.

I like to put in a little right thrust. While you need to adjust the model (leadouts and rudder) to fly tangent, the right thrust will help immensely to get the lines tight quicker when **** happens and the tension goes away...saves models.

Keep in mind the effect of line twists and what you can do to avoid them...equal number of insides and outsides, or 8's, etc. Avoid crashes by knowing what you are going to do before you start each trick. Just playing around doing random tricks is a good way to lose a model to indecision. This is where flying "the pattern" helps, you know what  you're going to do, and how many you'll do. This also helps avoid having the engine quit in overheads or V8's, from which avoiding a bad crash is very difficult. My advise is to hold full up, turn around and RUN!

Flying smooth level laps on a rough pilot's circle is pretty tough. Maybe there is something you can do to remedy that?

My experience has been that most times I crashed it was due to loss of line tension, for one reason or other. Turbulence through trees or over buildings on windy days, or "wake turbulence" on calm days...that's the scariest, IMO. The plane hits it's own wake and can sometimes just fall out of the sky. We sometimes face that here, and have to learn to deal with it...backing up to get the plane in smooth air. Or, if it's a bit windy, you can step downwind to reduce line tension and actually slow the plane down. That one is hard to remember to do, but it does work.

Keep making trim adjustments and trying different props. If they don't work, don't push your plane too hard, and just fly it out to save the plane. Be sure that you can get back to previous settings. You'll learn from the mistakes as well as the improvements.

Be sure and watch those videos, do lots of "dry flying" on rainy days, and avoid learning bad habits.  H^^ Steve   

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2016, 04:49:21 PM »
Thanks, Steve, a video may show more/other things than I think to comment on.
This video is of Mike Londke, before he began stunt competition, flying the same FS and may better reveal trim issues, he being a more accomplished flyer than I.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8wvz7lnt6Y&feature=youtu.be

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #41 on: June 18, 2016, 04:53:22 PM »
This is in no sense to be argumentative with any statements made anyone, but I'll point out that, at my level of flying "expertise", finer points of design, trim, power delivery and such are not my concern. ONE plane that I've flown ONE time has severe trim issues to the point that it was NO fun to fly.

<<snip>>
To make use of a well-known concept, I couldn't fly significantly better right now if I had Randy's or Kaz's planes (their coaching is a different matter).


   Absolutely everyone that asks me to fly their airplanes (and Ted, too, since we have talked about it extensively) thinks *exactly* the same thing and they are almost always wrong. Maybe you are the one exception, but (no offense) I doubt it.
 
   Additionally, I wasn't talking about the fine points of anything. Many people, even some experienced competitors, aren't within a country mile of the right trim/engine/workmanship and it is a very severe and common issue with trying to learn to fly stunt.  

What *you* want to do about that, or not, is entirely up to you, of course, I wouldn't insist on anyone doing anything different. How you enjoy model airplanes is entirely up to you. I would point out that the original post *did* ask about the finer points of flying and that was the portion of the thread I was responding to. Other people should find it informative, I would hope.

     Brett

    

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2016, 06:27:21 PM »
"Uncle!"  ;D

I have the the .20 FP BBTU and the Flight Streak and I'll balance it at the currently recommended point.
I've searched for threads on further trimming the Flight Streak (or stunters generally) for flight but found no results with my wording.
Any suggestions for a useful search term, or is there a book or video explaining the process?

Terry


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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #43 on: June 18, 2016, 06:43:08 PM »
"Uncle!"  ;D

I have the the .20 FP BBTU and the Flight Streak and I'll balance it at the currently recommended point.
I've searched for threads on further trimming the Flight Streak (or stunters generally) for flight but found no results with my wording.
Any suggestions for a useful search term, or is there a book or video explaining the process?

Terry




Way more than you need, and you'll have to pick through what to ignore (basically, if it's about flaps then ignore it).  Start at the bottom: http://flyinglines.org/walkerstunt.html.
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #44 on: June 18, 2016, 06:47:45 PM »
Your flying didn't look all that bad to me.  Is the airplane kind of sensitive and "twichy"?   That looks to me like pretty wide line spacing on the handle, way wider than I use on a Flite Streak.  My lines are about 4 inches apart at the handle - makes the plane a lot less sensitive to small handle movements. 
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2016, 06:55:54 PM »
Thanks, Tim, just a quick peek and all I can say is "Beautiful!" - looks like just the thing!


Russell - at the time of the video, all I had was a Sullivan (1/2A?) handle, I've since been using the EZ-Just.

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #46 on: June 18, 2016, 07:22:58 PM »
If you mosey up to the Nats next month in Muncie, you'll get plenty of help.  The best times to come are either early in the week or Saturday after the finals. 
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #47 on: June 18, 2016, 07:48:19 PM »
Ah, Howard, would that I could!
I hope to be in the midst of sorting out after the move to AL next month, and if not I'll be in the midst of trying to get the move on track.
To modify a sentiment: "Next year in Muncie".
I'll even be legit next time.   :)

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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #48 on: June 18, 2016, 08:17:39 PM »
My personal opinion is that the ezejust has way too wide line spacing for comfortable control.  A small handle movement makes the airplane move a LOT.  Try a handle with about 4 inches of line spacing and your plane should be a much smoother flyer. 
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Stunting Basics - the WES element
« Reply #49 on: June 18, 2016, 08:58:20 PM »
Thanks for the tip, Russell. Steve H also commented on handles earlier.
Not a hard-point, but for the time being I can go back to the Sullivan, adjustable down to 3 1/2" spacing, and see what that does for me.

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