Stunt 25 rules update for 2013 season

[Clint Ormosen]

These are the updated 2013 rules for Stunt 25. The most notable change is the removal of the 9" prop requirement. A few other rules were changed slightly for clarification. Also the handicap for beginner pilots has been increased.
Stunt 25 will be flown at Funday 2013, May 4-5 in Davis CA

1. Power- Will be one (1) stock, side exhaust glow engine of no greater size than .25. If it came out of the box marked "25" on the case, it's legal.
    Ball, needle, and plain bearing engines ok
    Internal engine modifications are PROHIBITED.
    Muffler pressure to fuel tank is allowed.
    Crankcase pressure to fuel tank PROHIBITED
    Tuned pipes are PROHIBITED
    Aftermarket mufflers ok
    Venturi size not regulated
    
2. Fuel- Will have a nitro content of NO MORE than 10%. (CD has no way to check this, so don't cheat!)

3. Fuel tanks- Any rigid fuel tank is allowed.
    Uniflow tanks OK.
    Bladders and pacifiers are prohibited.
    Timed and mechanical fuel shutoffs are not allowed.

4. Prop diameter is not regulated.
     Prop pitch is not regulated.

5. Models- Can be full fuse or profile of any size.
    Flapped or un-flapped designs OK
    Models may be scratch built, kit built, ARF's, ARC's, or any combination. Construction/finishing materials are not limited.
    All models must use 2 line control (no monoline type systems.)
    All models will have landing gear of at least one wheel. Uni-wheel, taildragger, and trike style gear are all acceptable.
    No model will have more than ONE engine. No multi-engine designs allowed.
    
6. Flight- The standard AMA stunt pattern (including time limit) is to be flown and judged in the same manor as the regular PAMPA event.  All AMA safety rules apply including pull test and line size requirements.
    All Models will R.O.G.
    Any line length is permitted (70 ft max.)
    3 attempts for 2 official flights.

7. Scoring- Standard AMA scoring for Aerobatics will be used (0-40 pts). Only five (5) place awards will be given. Handicap points will be given to pilots based on their established class in PAMPA stunt.
               Beginners will be handicapped           100 points
               Intermediate will be handicapped       40 points
               Advanced will be handicapped            20 points
               Experts will receive no handicap.         0  points
   The best of two official flights plus any handicap points is the posted score. In case of a tie, the winner will be whichever pilot is in the LOWER skill class. If the tie is between pilots of same class, the total of both official flights will be added together to determine the placing.

8. Appearance- No points will be given for appearance in this event.



    

[Tim Wescott]

My sense of humor demands that I find a 25cc engine and show up with a big plane.  Fortunately, Davis is much too far away.

[Clint Ormosen]

My sense of humor demands that I find a 25cc engine and show up with a big plane.  Fortunately, Davis is much too far away.

With a 25cc you could fly almost 1/2 scale. Not quite in the spirit of the event. 

[Tim Wescott]

With a 25cc you could fly almost 1/2 scale. Not quite in the spirit of the event. 

It was "if it came out of the box with a '25' on it" that got me going.

[Reptoid]

 "Internal engine modifications are PROHIBITED."

This rule seems very odd to me in a stunt event. Why would anyone care? My experience is that these kind of rules serve no purpose and just cause controversy trying to define what a mod is; IE, gaskets?, upgraded bearing?, timing?, Hemi head?

No disrespect intended. Just curious why anyone would care about the engine internals other than displacement.

[Hoss Cain]

Sounds to me like a great way to run an event. Folks know the rules as they are, and to me it seems well done for a great fun event. Wish it was here. 

[Balsa Butcher]

My entry this year will be a Shark 402 from Brodak. Engine still to be decided upon. Last year I thought the best flying plane in the competition was a Walter Umland "Sakitumi". It will be hard to beat that one.  

[Larry Fernandez]

I'm stoked  and jazzed.
The only thing that I dont like is the lack of appearance points.
But hey, its your contest and your rules.
I'm hoping to have my Still Stuka Stunt ready to do battle by then.

Thanks for stepping up and putting this together.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Clint Ormosen]

"Internal engine modifications are PROHIBITED."

This rule seems very odd to me in a stunt event. Why would anyone care? My experience is that these kind of rules serve no purpose and just cause controversy trying to define what a mod is; IE, gaskets?, upgraded bearing?, timing?, Hemi head?

No disrespect intended. Just curious why anyone would care about the engine internals other than displacement.

Because its supposed to be a cheap, fun, low effort event. Nobody is going to modify their engine for a stunt run but the idea is to keep folks from trying to double the power output so they can fly an Impact on a .25. Not likely to happen but there's always one......

[Clint Ormosen]

I'm stoked  and jazzed.
The only thing that I dont like is the lack of appearance points.
But hey, its your contest and your rules.
I'm hoping to have my Still Stuka Stunt ready to do battle by then.

Thanks for stepping up and putting this together.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Larry, I'm as big of a supporter of appearance points as you, just not for this event. Like Old Time stunt, it's more about the flying than the looks. I just wanted people to have another flying opportunity at contests without a lot of hassle. So bolt a motor on an ARF and come have a blast. (I know you won't fly an ARF, but bring something)

[Tom Niebuhr]

Clint,
This is a great event. My Hobo is a natural for it. I have had numerous size engines in my prototype Hobo.  I have a FP .25 in it now.

[john e. holliday]

Rules look great,  may have to try that here in my part of the country.

[Gerald Arana]

Clint, Clint, Clint!

Why are you changing horses in the middle of the stream?    I thought that 9" prop rule was "GOLDEN"! Now I might have to build another ship............Naw, just kidding. (about building another ship that is)

I'll be there for a fun time...............

GA

[Jerry Olson]

Rule 6, what does R.O.G. Mean?  Thanks.

[Brett Buck]

Rule 6, what does R.O.G. Mean?  Thanks.

 Rise Off Ground. No handlaunching.

   Brett

[Jerry Olson]

Thanks Brett, I hadn't the abbreviation before and was just curious.

[Clint Ormosen]

Clint, Clint, Clint!

Why are you changing horses in the middle of the stream?    I thought that 9" prop rule was "GOLDEN"! Now I might have to build another ship............Naw, just kidding. (about building another ship that is)

I'll be there for a fun time...............

GA

Trust me, I didn't want to change it. I thought the 9" prop was the great equalizer but too many pilots bitched about it. So now there is no excuse. Show up and fly guys!

[Chris Wilson]

1. Power- Will be one (1) stock, side exhaust glow engine of no greater size than .25.

Just curious here, what if someone rocked up with a no greater than .25 diesel?

Would they fall foul of the 'will be glow' rule and the side exhaust rule if it has radial exhaust?
(Radial exhaust is indeed side, as well as front, as well as back.)

Or would you simply include them out of sympathy and just issue gas masks to all?

[Brett Buck]

Trust me, I didn't want to change it. I thought the 9" prop was the great equalizer but too many pilots bitched about it. So now there is no excuse. Show up and fly guys!

   It was more than an equalizer, it was a public service.

    Brett

[FLOYD CARTER]

This "contest" is still an ordinary stunt event, although everyone flies in the same class, with handicaps.

I predict: this will turn into a RTF Nobler-type event with the O.S.25 (the only engine that has a chance)

I wish I could fly these smaller planes, but in my part of the world, the wind blows whenever I head for the field, leaving only my big planes to fly.

F.C.

[Brett Buck]

This "contest" is still an ordinary stunt event, although everyone flies in the same class, with handicaps.

I predict: this will turn into a RTF Nobler-type event with the O.S.25 (the only engine that has a chance)

I wish I could fly these smaller planes, but in my part of the world, the wind blows whenever I head for the field, leaving only my big planes to fly.

   I had the Beginner winner at the Ted Goyet fly flight after flight in a 20 mph wind with the Skyray and a 25LA, when the entire Advanced field and their big-time full stunters had long since bailed out. No problem. It would have done even better with the 20 because it wouldn't have been going rich at the end of the flights.

    I think smaller airplanes are actually much easier than the big ones in these conditions. You don't have to have forearms like Popeye to hold on to them. If someone's Stunt25 airplane won't handle a 15 mph wind they messed up somehow.

   And, as I recall, a Veco 19 on a Banshee either won the event, or was second.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

This "contest" is still an ordinary stunt event, although everyone flies in the same class, with handicaps.

I predict: this will turn into a RTF Nobler-type event with the O.S.25 (the only engine that has a chance)

I wish I could fly these smaller planes, but in my part of the world, the wind blows whenever I head for the field, leaving only my big planes to fly.

F.C.

I suppose that could happen, but so far it's been pretty diverse as far as planes and engines. Off the top of my head I can remember at least 7 different engines used last year and no duplicate models either. An awful lot of models qualify for this so there isn't really a need for everybody to fly the same thing.

Just curious here, what if someone rocked up with a no greater than .25 diesel?

Would they fall foul of the 'will be glow' rule and the side exhaust rule if it has radial exhaust?
(Radial exhaust is indeed side, as well as front, as well as back.)

Or would you simply include them out of sympathy and just issue gas masks to all?

Well a diesel isn't a glow motor, so it's out. As far as radial exhaust (like the current Fox 19/25) as long as its configured to a side exhaust, it's fine.


 

   It was more than an equalizer, it was a public service.

    Brett

Thanks Brett. Like I said, I really didn't want to change it but I don't want to discourage entry's either. We'll see if it makes any difference.

[Gerald Arana]

  It was more than an equalizer, it was a public service.

    Brett

Clint; I agree with Brett. To succumb to these sniveler's isn't what your contest was about. You wanted to add contestants but (I thnk)
you'll also be losing some too.

I thought you had a pair of cahonnies   but I guess they are just ball bearings!  

See you at the contest.............

Jerry

[proparc]

Great set of simple, clear, concise rules!

I like the one about "if it says 25 on the case".

[Tim Wescott]

Great set of simple, clear, concise rules!

I like the one about "if it says 25 on the case".

I would certainly like that if I were running such a contest -- it saves everyone from some sore loser insisting on a teardown.

[Clint Ormosen]

Clint; I agree with Brett. To succumb to these sniveler's isn't what your contest was about. You wanted to add contestants but (I thnk)
you'll also be losing some too.

I thought you had a pair of cahonnies   but I guess they are just ball bearings!  

See you at the contest.............

Jerry

Meh......we'll see. I doubt it's going to make a lot of difference. I think most guys have enough sense to use a 9" prop anyway and those that don't are only hurting themselves. It's not going to be an advantage for them. One guy wants use a 9 1/4". Whatever.
No matter what, someone isn't going to be happy about a particular rule. Besides, after this year I can always reinstate the 9" rule. We'll see how it goes.

[Balsa Butcher]

That was a little harsh Jerry. OS-25 FP's run well on an APC 10x3 prop, in most cases better than they do with a 9X4 or 9x5. The extra diameter tames them down a bit while its low pitch allows them to operate at the RPM they run best at. Since when was setting up your engine to run its best an unfair advantage in stunt?
      Originally the 9" restriction was to keep people from trying to run their OS-25's like a Fox 35. I think by now most people realize that that is not a good idea - and if they don't they will. The 9" prop rule is unnecessary so why keep it?  The equalizer in this event is the scoring handicap, not the prop choice.

[Gerald Arana]

Hi Pete,

No, actually I don't think I was being "harsh".     I was trying to be factual and "tongue-in-cheek" at the same time.      Sorry if you missed that.......(probably didn't make myself clear. My wife is always making me spell everthing out.)

I'm simply siding with Brett on this one.

Jerry

[Brett Buck]

Clint; I agree with Brett. To succumb to these sniveler's isn't what your contest was about.

  That's not an exact quote....

    I saw it as an advantage to make sure nobody was silly enough to start trying to put 10-6s on these sort of motors for a "real stunt run", i.e. take their thoroughbred motor and try to make it into a plow horse. Just look at some of the comments about these models here, in the other thread, and whenever this comes up - fly it on 50 foot lines, I would do it except the wind blows where I live, etc. Complete and utter lack of understanding of the performance capabilities. It's not too far fetched to see people trying to plunk an 8-6 on it because that's what their 1954 "What Prop Should I Use" chart says.

     It doesn't really matter, these rules are fine and it's still a good idea for an event.

    Brett

[Paul Smith]

Sounds pretty good to me.  I can see this going the way of OTS, classic, and Profile 40.  In no time at all electrics will be weaseling in,  and somebody will want a little slack" for a .28, then a .32, etc, etc.

A couple of questions:

1. What's the big deal about 9" prop?  Why measure props at all?  Are you trying to disallow 8" or 10"?

2. Why no bladders?  To some, they're an easy way to avoid building a tank to fit the plane. 

3. ROG?  Maybe if you allowed hand launching, we wouldn't need to be so critical about to ground surface.  Takeoff and Landing are not aerobatic stunts, just basic flight.  This might be a good chance to phase out T/O and landing in favor of tow more actual stunts.

[Brett Buck]

1. What's the big deal about 9" prop?  Why measure props at all?  Are you trying to disallow 8" or 10"?

   Well, there's no restriction now. The beauty of the 9" prop rule was to keep people from doing something stupid like bogging down these engines like stunt people seem to so prone to doing. Witness the endless parade of "modified for lucky best stunt run" 40's that have less power than Fox 35s. I thought it was great because it essentially forces everyone to run the engine properly, which should help them learn something.

2. Why no bladders?  To some, they're an easy way to avoid building a tank to fit the plane. 

3. ROG?  Maybe if you allowed hand launching, we wouldn't need to be so critical about to ground surface.  Takeoff and Landing are not aerobatic stunts, just basic flight.  This might be a good chance to phase out T/O and landing in favor of tow more actual stunts.

    Takeoff and landing are 40 point stunt maneuvers, and this is a stunt event, just like the others. Flopping down like a combat plane is not part of it. They aren't going to be "phased out".
 
    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

3. ROG?  Maybe if you allowed hand launching, we wouldn't need to be so critical about to ground surface.  Takeoff and Landing are not aerobatic stunts, just basic flight.  This might be a good chance to phase out T/O and landing in favor of tow more actual stunts.

Unsticking from the ground and becoming stuck again are basic flight maneuvers.

Rolling along the ground for at least fifteen feet but not more than 1/4 of a lap (I hope I'm getting that right), gaining altitude gradually over the course of at least 1/2 lap, then holding perfectly level flight at 4.8 meters without deviation, and doing all of this as the very first thing you do in a flight is not easy.

Pattern landings aren't trivial, either, if you're trying for a rule-book landing.

So I can't agree that takeoff and landing, done per the rule book, are "just basic flight".  They may not be "stunts", but they are chock full of subtleties that are hard to nail, and in my opinion belong in the pattern.

Besides, individual contest organizers can always waive those rules and publish that they have done so.

[Clint Ormosen]

Sounds pretty good to me.  I can see this going the way of OTS, classic, and Profile 40.  In no time at all electrics will be weaseling in,  and somebody will want a little slack" for a .28, then a .32, etc, etc.

A couple of questions:

1. What's the big deal about 9" prop?  Why measure props at all?  Are you trying to disallow 8" or 10"?

2. Why no bladders?  To some, they're an easy way to avoid building a tank to fit the plane. 

3. ROG?  Maybe if you allowed hand launching, we wouldn't need to be so critical about to ground surface.  Takeoff and Landing are not aerobatic stunts, just basic flight.  This might be a good chance to phase out T/O and landing in favor of tow more actual stunts.

Paul, as long as I'm running the event, it will be gas only, up to 25 engines. No 28's. No 32's. No electrics. Props were limited to 9" max diameter, but we changed it to unlimited. If someone want to be dumb enough to try a 10-6, meh, let em. As far  as your bladder question goes, how much more power could you make if you could run a bladder and huge venturi because you didn't need to worry about suction? 

[Mike Scholtes]

I was wringing out the Sakitumi 25 this morning, after not flying it since last fall. It flies a pattern as crisp and precise, maybe more so, as my full-house big stunters. And yes, with a totally stock FP20 with a 9-4 APC at about 11K rpm (still working on getting rpm just right, motor nearly new). Can't wait for contest season to start up. Would like to see what Brett could do with this model, I would guess near a 600 point pattern. Clint, stick to your guns and keep this fun event fun.

[Brett Buck]

Would like to see what Brett could do with this model, I would guess near a 600 point pattern.

   5 points behind David, as always.

   Brett

[Mike Scholtes]

Brett, you and David are welcome to see what you can do with this capable little model. It grooves nicely but is realy quick in the corners without a lot of overturn. And that's with ME flying it!

How's that Olympic idea progressing?