Author Topic: why is fuel for control line almost 50.00 a gallon now? (Read 3576 times)

Matt Curtis · « **on:** January 14, 2021, 02:11:22 PM »

i have been wanting to order some more powermaster 10/22 gma fuel and it is almost 46.00 a gallon plus hazmat and shipping. Omega stunt fuel is over 40.00 for 4 quarts plus shipping and hazmat. Is there a nitro shortage or has the cost of materials gone way up? Omega r/c fuel is 28.00 a gallon. why so much more for just a little more oil?

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2021, 04:55:18 PM »

There isn't likely just one good answer. There was a nitro shortage 2-3 years ago when one of the main suppliers in China blew up. There may also be larger import tariffs. There are pretty stringent rules on purchasing and transporting nitro and large hazmat fees to ship larger quantities. Then, I don't know about the castor oil supply. It must be used for something other than model airplanes but what? How many suppliers are there? With a few of the major fuel makers having quit making fuel I suppose you could ask what you want for it. We just purchased 5 gallons of nitro- $330.00 plus shipping..........the Omega fuel? Maybe they still have older supplies. Personally I never cared for the stuff and wouldn't trust to put it in any of my engines without heavily doctoring it with enough good oil-or better yet just no.(IMHO).

Dave

Brent Williams · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2021, 05:49:30 PM »

Spend some money on ingredients and just make your own fuel. Have a few flying buddies go in on the deal and you'll have plenty of fuel for a long time.

Doing the math, a gallon of home brew 10/22 made from the materials listed costs me around $25 minus the container.

You can make 9 gallons of 10/22 50/50 oil fuel from this list.

Klotz Techiplate synthetic oil: https://www.amazon.com/Original-TechniPlate-128-Ounce-Gallon/dp/B01M6B8YRC

Klotz BeNol castor oil: https://www.amazon.com/BeNOL-Racing-Castor-Lubricant-Gallon/dp/B008YELCWY

Torco 100% Nitromethane: http://torconitro.com/pro-rc-nitro.html

Methanol can usually be sourced locally in 3-5 gal containers quite inexpensively.

John Leidle · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2021, 06:00:56 PM »

You can get Torco fuel shipped for about $ 160 a case,,, the days of reasonable fuel prices are most likely gone forever. Last time I checked Rich's Brew was a bit less it works good also.
John L.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2021, 07:14:03 PM »

Electrons are cheap.

Matt Curtis · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2021, 09:42:59 PM »

Thank you for the info. I do have some methanol that I bought a few years ago and some castor oil. I could mix this up with some R/c car fuel that I have and add some castor to it. The powermaster fuel was much cheaper last spring. I can buy methanol at the dragstrip here. Who knows if I can still do that? I will mix up a small batch and see how it works?

John Leidle · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2021, 09:27:56 AM »

I made some FAI fuel last Spring to try in my Stalker & some 2.5% nitro to try. I believe it easy enough to mix our own fuel & have it work just a well as commercial fuel . But as long as I can buy it I will because of convenience.
John L.

Matt Curtis · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2021, 12:30:07 PM »

Methanol still avaiable at local track for 3.45 a gallon 5 gallon minimum. nitro from Torco does not have a hazmat fee for 1 gallon. So I am going to do this. I will work with the methanol I have and mix up some fuel but can order more material when needed. tHANK YOU SO MUCH.

John Leidle · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2021, 12:59:41 PM »

I paid a lot more to Torco for Methanol take my word for it. Hope it works for you .
John L.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2021, 01:14:08 PM »

The other half of the problem is that the market had dramatically shrunk and the entire IC section of the hobby is rapidly collapsing, as RC is collapsing on top of it. I think this situation is headed in one direction, very rapidly.

Brett

Chuck Matheny · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2021, 01:19:23 PM »

We have a fuel dealer in Arlington Wa [Nelson Petroleum] where I was able to buy a 55 gallon drum of methanol from them for $165 a few years ago.
Sig sells gallons of castor and I think there is a 4 gallon discount.
I don't recall where I buy Klotz synthetic.
I used to buy nitro from a VP dealer in Snohomish WA but they are gone. My solution was to buy a gallon of TORCO model boat fuel @ 66% nitro for about $80 via ebay or Amazon.
The right approach to find nitro would be to get in contact with a [any] professional racer for advice but I haven't taken my own advice to do that yet.

frank mccune · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2021, 01:22:25 PM »

Mix your own and save!

Matt Colan · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2021, 01:24:20 PM »

Two years ago was the last time I bought fuel and I paid $38 a gallon for it. That’s when I had enough of paying that price and learned how to mix my own. I just bought a gallon of Klotz Super Techniplate and it cost $50 for a gallon. That will last me for the entire year, maybe more. I’m still on the gallon of nitro I got two years ago and that was also roughly $50. Doing it myself has resulted in the cost of fuel to drop to the more reasonable $18-20 a gallon once I did the math. I won’t ever buy pre-made fuel again, unless it comes down to that price

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2021, 02:21:05 PM »

$50 a gallon = $2.75 per flight on a 7oz tank.

$75 a battery = $.75 per flight. If you use Chinese batteries at $30 a battery it is about $.40. That assumes good care and 100 cycles for US batteries and 75 cycles for the Chinese. Some get more on both, most get less.

2 years ago the Cost per flight was much closer.

Ken

Skip Chernoff · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2021, 02:35:15 PM »

I've always made my own fuel. I buy the Klotz Beanol or Techniplate at the local motorcycle shop. They charge me $10 per qt. I buy the methanol at a local speed shop at $40 for 5 gallon pail. The Nitro is the problem. The guy from S&W fuel sold me a gallon about a year ago for $60 but I had to pick it up in person. When it's gone I don't think I'll get it at that price again.. When I mix my own 5% fuel it costs me about $22 per gallon. You don't absolutly need the Nitro. Skip

Reptoid · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2021, 09:20:41 PM »

The cost of storing and handling Pure Nitromethane has gone through the roof for anyone except the Largest suppliers. Very hard for a small fuel shop to keep prices down. The ingredients are only a portion of the cost.
For almost all modeling uses when brewing your own fuel you can buy a product from VP fuels called Nitro 50/50. As the name implies it is 50% Nitro and 50% Methanol and comes in a sealed 5 Gallon drum. It can be ordered by any VP fuels retailer and using simple math you can brew up to and including 40% nitro fuel assuming 20% oil. Local prices will vary slightly but here in CA it is roughly $110 for 5 gallons That's about $40/gal for the nitro and $4/gal for Methanol. Not sure why, but the price of Klotz and Castor has increased a bunch in the last year. Sig prices rose dramatically in the last 1 1/2 years like castor went from $25 to @47 and Klotz went from $41 to $62. That's like 80% up for castor and 50% up for Klotz. Neither of those products are toxic or require hazmat so I'm not sure why.

Shorts,David · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2021, 09:51:18 PM »

Okay, fuel experts. I can buy VP 5 gallon 50/50 for $169 before hazmat and shipping. Then I buy a bunch of straight methanol, some klotz, and some castor, and I've got my own powermaster?
So 5 gallons/2=320 ounces of Nitro. 320/12.8 means I have enough nitro for 25 gallons, assuming I like 10%, although often I use 5%. I think I see why some guys mix their own.
Hyperfuels Methanol is $35 for 5 gallons.

Or, Torco shows "nitromethane" 5 gallon, but it doesn't say them ratio. Maybe 50/50? And it is $299 with hazmat included. Same deal? Mix my own?

Is Torco higher quality than VP?

Brent Williams · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2021, 10:28:34 PM »

As it implies on their website, the Torco is 100% Nitromethane.

https://torcoracefuel.net/products/torco-race-fuel-nitro-methane

Craig Beswick · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2021, 01:12:09 AM »

Hey guys, I may be completely wrong, but isn't nitro measured at a specific gravity or temperature or something?

So, is it 5% or 10% nitro by volume or weight? I thought there was some chemical engineering stuff involved when mixing? Or am I over complicating it?

Craig

Brett Buck · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2021, 02:15:20 AM »

Quote from: Craig Beswick on January 16, 2021, 01:12:09 AM

So, is it 5% or 10% nitro by volume or weight? I thought there was some chemical engineering stuff involved when mixing? Or am I over complicating it?

You wouldn't be "one of us" if you didn't overcomplicate it, that's just what we do!

It should be measured by *volume*, not weight, although since we are usually just trying different types and seeing what works, it doesn't really matter too much.

Brett

qaz049 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 16, 2021, 02:30:47 AM »

Quote from: Craig Beswick on January 16, 2021, 01:12:09 AM

Hey guys, I may be completely wrong, but isn't nitro measured at a specific gravity or temperature or something?

So, is it 5% or 10% nitro by volume or weight? I thought there was some chemical engineering stuff involved when mixing? Or am I over complicating it?

Craig

The short answer is that it depends.

The longer answer is that it depends on how careful you want to be.

The commercial mixing of larger quantities of glow fuel is probably done by weight. Simply because it's easier to measure it accurately than is volume. For this you need to know the Specific Gravity or Density of the components, and be able to do some calculating. That's not difficult to do. In control line custom and practice, fuel components percentages are normally talked about using Volume units.

Mixing glow fuel by volume introduces a few complexities that usually go unnoticed. I mix my own using a quality 1000ml graduated cylinder. To mix a Litre I measure in 200ml (20%) of castor in first. I then pour this into a Litre tin or bottle fitted with a funnel. Then I wait till it's all drained. Then I pour in and measure 700ml (70%) of methanol into the cylinder. Next this goes into the funnel and container as well. Then measure 100ml (10%) of Nitro, and pour it into the container. The shake the latter vigorously. This usually results in a mixture of about 990 to 970 ml of glow fuel. Apart from the measurement errors there's always a loss of volume and the higher the air temperature the greater it will be.

Normally it's not noticed but it's because the Castor Oil is not an "ideal liquid". Part of it's volume is dissolved in the solvent (Methanol). Besides this phenomenon graduated measuring glassware is usually calibrated at a particular temperature. Say, One Litre at 25 degree C. So the fuel volume varies but the Mass (or weight) doesn't.

Of course a jug with proportions marked on the side is probably good enough for most purposes. The above does become more important when mixing competition grade diesel fuel.

Craig Beswick · « **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2021, 02:57:16 AM »

Brett,
I'm in the fortunate position my fuel is made by a former British Petroleum chemical engineer.

You are right about over complicating things though! Ha.

I am lucky I have no pre concieved ideas or 40 years of old habits. I listen to what is said on the forum and decide on the validity of it.

I am no machinist or mechanic so I don't touch engines and when someone says an LA46 works fine straight out of the box and actually does it. I listen and don't touch them and just break in and fly, well crash, but getting there.

Craig

Craig Beswick · « **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2021, 02:59:29 AM »

qaz049,
Yep, I'm over complicating it.

Craig
Ps thank you for the education.

Matt Curtis · « **Reply #23 on:** January 17, 2021, 08:47:38 PM »

So I mixed a quart of no nitro fuel with the methonal that I already have. I put in about 20%oil half klotz techniplate and half fox castor. I tried to run a o.s. engine today and it would not run. It did start up and run briefly but would not restart. I tried adding some r/c car fuel to the mix and it would not run. The engine rab fine on the r/c car fuel alone. This was a fx r/c engine that runs well on omega r/c fuel and I am flying a r/c plane that I converted to c/l that I am only flying level and controling throttle with 2.4 ghz r/c. I wonder if it is because I live at 5200' or the methanol that I bought at the dragstrip is a different type than used for model airplane fuel? I suppose I could buy a quart of sig fai fuel to see if the engine would run on that? The methanol sells for 3.54 a gallon. If you buy a gallon from Torco it is 33.00 a gallon.

qaz049 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2021, 09:06:31 PM »

Quote from: Matt Curtis on January 17, 2021, 08:47:38 PM

So I mixed a quart of no nitro fuel with the methonal that I already have. I put in about 20%oil half klotz techniplate and half fox castor. I tried to run a o.s. engine today and it would not run. It did start up and run briefly but would not restart. I tried adding some r/c car fuel to the mix and it would not run. The engine rab fine on the r/c car fuel alone. This was a fx r/c engine that runs well on omega r/c fuel and I am flying a r/c plane that I converted to c/l that I am only flying level and controling throttle with 2.4 ghz r/c. I wonder if it is because I live at 5200' or the methanol that I bought at the dragstrip is a different type than used for model airplane fuel? I suppose I could buy a quart of sig fai fuel to see if the engine would run on that? The methanol sells for 3.54 a gallon. If you buy a gallon from Torco it is 33.00 a gallon.

You might need a hotter glowplug and a warmer day for the homebrew FAI mix. Perhaps a little more compression. Can you remove a head shim?

John Leidle · « **Reply #25 on:** January 17, 2021, 10:51:57 PM »

We use to use 50% castor always I have no idea how we kept the thing lit I use minimal castor now it makes my engines flame out using castor.
John L.

Reptoid · « **Reply #26 on:** January 18, 2021, 12:02:53 AM »

Quote from: Shorts,David on January 15, 2021, 09:51:18 PM

Okay, fuel experts. I can buy VP 5 gallon 50/50 for $169 before hazmat and shipping. Then I buy a bunch of straight methanol, some klotz, and some castor, and I've got my own powermaster?
So 5 gallons/2=320 ounces of Nitro. 320/12.8 means I have enough nitro for 25 gallons, assuming I like 10%, although often I use 5%. I think I see why some guys mix their own.
Hyperfuels Methanol is $35 for 5 gallons.

Or, Torco shows "nitromethane" 5 gallon, but it doesn't say them ratio. Maybe 50/50? And it is $299 with hazmat included. Same deal? Mix my own?

Is Torco higher quality than VP?

The idea is to find a dealer near you that sells VP racing products. They can get your 50/50 on the same truck that brings their other products. You don't pay shipping and/or hazmat.(locally about $110 right now) If you order any fuel or components and have them shipped to you you're going to get whacked for hazmat. On the Methanol if you have a race shop near you that sells to racers/off roaders/ drag boaters they will have bulk Methanol and will put it in your container (right now here $5 gallon vs. $47 for VP sealed 5 gallon can) The Torco is 100% Nitromethane

Chuck_Smith · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2021, 05:13:27 AM »

One thing to remember is that liquids don't usually mix equally by volume.

For example, 1 gallon of chemical A and 1 gallon of chemical B won't usually yield 2 gallons of the finished solution.

It's a bit beyond this forum to explain why but if you're interested you can lookup the mechanics of why that happens.

Chuck

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2021, 05:35:59 AM »

Did the China tariff war have an effect on nitromethane price?

Perry Rose · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2021, 05:39:45 AM »

Get your castor oil from Bulk Apothecary in 5 gallon amounts. Maybe it's 4 gallons now. Less than $20 a gallon. If you don't say you will have to sign for it. Shipped it was less than $90. A single gallon shipped is around $30. It's much cleaner than Sig/Fox castor. I've used 10 gallons in my mix with no problems.
I bought a gallon of Omega 10% on Jan. 16 at the local hobby shop for $20.00.

Chuck_Smith · « **Reply #30 on:** January 18, 2021, 05:44:30 AM »

Meh. Fuel was expensive back in the 60's and 70's too.

I mean, how much is the price of fuel really impacting your modeling?

I'd guess not a whole lot.

If you want to bitch about fuel prices buy a boat. How does 120 gallons per hour sound?

Chuck

YakNine · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2021, 06:32:31 AM »

The Klotz has gone up in price because 2 stroke power sports are pretty much gone and replaced by 4 strokes, Dirt bikes Jet-Skis and Snow-Mobiles used a lot more Klotz than Model airplanes ever did . Chainsaws weed wackers and leaf blowers are starting to go electric, might want to stock up on Benol its a matter of time. TJ

Gerald Arana · « **Reply #32 on:** January 18, 2021, 07:16:34 AM »

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on January 18, 2021, 05:44:30 AM

Meh. Fuel was expensive back in the 60's and 70's too.

I mean, how much is the price of fuel really impacting your modeling?

I'd guess not a whole lot.

If you want to bitch about fuel prices buy a boat. How does 120 gallons per hour sound?

Chuck

That's just a wee bit above my pay grade!

Jerry

Dennis Toth · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2021, 10:03:47 AM »

Maybe it's a opportunity for one of our skilled machinists to develop high compression heads (10 to 12 CR) for some of the popular engines to allow operation on FAI type fuel. I know the arguments that the needle will be touchy but there are engines out there that run just fine for stunt on FAI type fuel, might need a bit more oil up it to 25% from 20. I think running either on pipe (they have been running FAI fuel in speed on pipe for many years) or in a high rpm/low pitch setup it should work with the high compression head.

Best, DennisT

Brett Buck · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2021, 10:17:47 AM »

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on January 18, 2021, 05:44:30 AM

Meh. Fuel was expensive back in the 60's and 70's too.

That's interesting. I bought fuel for what I recall was around $7 a gallon, the cheapest type mixed by pharmacist Lew McFarland for his shop. With inflation, that's about $28 in 2020 dollars. I last got Powermaster 10% for something like $29 about a year ago. So it's more expensive, but only a few years ago that was a mere $16, which is *far below* that price, and it was even lower than that most of the time. Given the approaching demise of internal-combustion model aircraft, and the remarkable shrinkage of the market, I would say we had gotten a free ride for quite a while, now we are approaching the market cost.

Quote

I mean, how much is the price of fuel really impacting your modeling?

I'd guess not a whole lot.

A weekend trip to Los Angeles for a model airplane contest is around $500 all told, and in preparation for that it might take a gallon on average per contest, sounds like about 10% of the cost of one contest. Not negligible, but not anything that will change what I do.

Quote

If you want to bitch about fuel prices buy a boat. How does 120 gallons per hour sound?

It's not so much a form of conveyance, it's a hole in the water into which you pour money. The two happiest days in a man's life are the day he buys a boat, and the day he sells a boat.

Brett

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #35 on:** January 18, 2021, 10:59:07 AM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on January 18, 2021, 10:17:47 AM

The two happiest days in a man's life are the day he buys a boat, and the day he sells a boat.
Brett

So true, my father had 5 that I know of. The happiest was the 35' Houseboat and 20' Morgan that he sold together!

Ken

Chuck_Smith · « **Reply #36 on:** January 18, 2021, 12:27:30 PM »

Dennis,

My K77's run great on 0% nitro.

Brett, my wife keeps nominating me for the "More Money Than Brains Society". Chasing marlin is not for the faint of heart. Hell, I'd be retired years ago if it wasn't for my passion for fishing and fishing boats. Now, if I can just get her to cozy up to a new 76' Viking.

No matter how big your boat is, there's a bigger one you can't afford, lol! I can still get up the tower, it just takes me longer. Good news is so far my eyes are holding out and I can still spot a fish in the spread or tuna chasing bait.

Chuck

GallopingGhostler · « **Reply #37 on:** January 18, 2021, 01:49:02 PM »

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on January 18, 2021, 05:44:30 AM

Meh. Fuel was expensive back in the 60's and 70's too. I mean, how much is the price of fuel really impacting your modeling? I'd guess not a whole lot.

Back in the 1970's and '80s, I was flying mostly half-A and an A, so fuel cost was definitely affordable when a quart can would last as long as 2 gallons for others. A Golden Bee with 8cc (0.28 oz.) tank basically sipped fuel.

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on January 18, 2021, 05:44:30 AM

If you want to bitch about fuel prices buy a boat. How does 120 gallons per hour sound?

Or, buy an RV home.

I was invited to ride on a friend's doctor friend's 40 foot sloop off the coast of Waikiki back in the mid 1970's. Not much fuel cost on a sailing boat but definitely an investment. To each his own.

Regarding flying, I don't have anything larger than .35 aircraft now, and 4 oz. a flight at a time, even though fuel costs are up are still affordable, cheaper than bowling and lane fees, or golf clubs and green fees, just saying.

Ken Culbertson · « **Reply #38 on:** January 18, 2021, 01:53:37 PM »

Quote from: Chuck_Smith on January 18, 2021, 12:27:30 PM

My K77's run great on 0% nitro.

My Cobra's run on 0% everything

ken

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #39 on:** January 19, 2021, 04:17:00 PM »

Since it is known that 2-6 oz of Coleman fuel per gallon on typical 5%-15% nitro stunt fuel will increase the run time and also make it start easier, I'd be interested in the results of a mix with the Coleman fuel, but without the nitro. Somebody please try it! It's too cold here today, at least for my 75 year old bones.

Steve

qaz049 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 19, 2021, 04:51:45 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on January 19, 2021, 04:17:00 PM

Since it is known that 2-6 oz of Coleman fuel per gallon on typical 5%-15% nitro stunt fuel will increase the run time and also make it start easier, I'd be interested in the results of a mix with the Coleman fuel, but without the nitro. Somebody please try it! It's too cold here today, at least for my 75 year old bones. Steve

I don't know about the Coleman fuel but 10% of 96% strength Ethanol certainly extended the run time. It did need Nitro and a tad of extra compression to get it to run.

Shorts,David · « **Reply #41 on:** January 19, 2021, 07:26:05 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on January 18, 2021, 10:17:47 AM

Given the approaching demise of internal-combustion model aircraft, and the remarkable shrinkage of the market...

Brett

There's lots of talk these days about the attack on masculinity. Apparently evidenced in model airplanes as well.

.

qaz049 · « **Reply #42 on:** January 19, 2021, 07:48:32 PM »

Quote from: Shorts,David on January 19, 2021, 07:26:05 PM

There's lots of talk these days about the attack on masculinity. Apparently evidenced in model airplanes as well. .

Koro Syndrome?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2021, 11:54:16 AM »

Quote from: qaz049 on January 19, 2021, 07:48:32 PM

Koro Syndrome?

Probably. Maybe "the boys" just need exercising? But Helsinki Syndrome also seems plausible, what with all the quarantine and social distancing mandates.

Steve

PS: Actually, scale of manufacture is a likely cause. There is a very small niche market for glow fuel with a decent amount of oil in it. Last I looked, R/C (of course) boat fuel contains a lot of nitro and a reasonable amount of oil, which would be where I would start with mixing my own. If you can't do algebra, then you'd be screwed, although there are some fuel modification computer gizmos that will do the math for you.

phil c · « **Reply #44 on:** January 24, 2021, 07:39:30 PM »

Quote from: Matt Curtis on January 14, 2021, 02:11:22 PM

i have been wanting to order some more powermaster 10/22 gma fuel and it is almost 46.00 a gallon plus hazmat and shipping. Omega stunt fuel is over 40.00 for 4 quarts plus shipping and hazmat. Is there a nitro shortage or has the cost of materials gone way up? Omega r/c fuel is 28.00 a gallon. why so much more for just a little more oil?

I think the best suspect is they are using methane to make ethanol for disinfectants by the millions of gallons.