Starting rules in FAI.

[Russell Bond]

Below are the rules for the starting procedure for stunt in FAI, copied straight from their site:

But I have a question.
Judging by the rules, if you forget to signal the judges that you are starting the motor, the flight time starts from when the motor fires up. Does this mean that you don't have to signal the judges and your 7 minutes starts from when the motor starts?
Technically this must mean that if you are worried you won't get a fast start, don't signal the judges and just wait till it fires (within the 3 minutes preparation time) because then your 7 minutes flight time will start....Surely not!!!...But check it out as that's what it says.  
Am I missing something or is this another rule that need fixing as I thought if your motor starts before you signal, you can either stop the motor so that you can signal, or just call an attempt.
The only points that get deducted are the 10 points for starting within 1 minute. ( 4.2.15.2 )



4.2.13  Starting procedure.

a) Each competitor shall be allowed 3 minutes preparation time to enter the circle, to place his model aircraft at the selected starting position, to position the judges and to prepare his motor(s) for starting.
b) The competitor may choose to start, warm-up and stop his motor(s) during the preparation time, and he must inform the timekeeper if it is his intention to do so.
c) Immediately after the preparation time he shall be allowed a 7 minutes flight time in which to complete his manoeuvres.
d) The preparation time shall start when the competitor is officially called to perform his contest flight.
e) The timekeeper shall signal the beginning of the preparation time to the competitor and the judges.

f) The preparation time shall end and the Flight time shall start when:
    i) The timekeeper registers that the 3 minutes preparation time has elapsed.
   ii) The competitor gives a clear hand signal to the timekeeper, indicating that he is ready to start his motor(s).
  iii) The competitor starts his motor(s) without giving a clear signal to the timekeeper.
  iv) The competitor starts his motor(s) for warm-up without receiving permission from the timekeeper.
g) The timekeeper shall signal to the competitor and the judges when the flight time starts. If no hand signal is given by the competitor prior to starting his motor(s), or he starts his warm-up without receiving permission, then the timekeeper shall notify the judges of this.

h) The timing of an official flight shall stop the moment that the model aircraft has come to a full stop at the end of the ground roll that completes the Landing Manoeuvre.
i) The competitor shall remove his model aircraft, lines and handle from the flight circle immediately after he has completed his flight.

[PJ Rowland]

Seems to be the case.

Just keep flicking and flicking.

As a stalker owner myself this never comes up - we just signal and one flip it


Im not sure why they changed the wording, but your spot on.
 

[Paul Smith]

4.2.15.2. Starting manoeuvre
All judges shall award a mark 10 (ten) if the model aircraft begins its ground roll for the take-off
manoeuvre within 1 minute of giving the ready to start hand signal. Both manual and motor starting
devices such as electric starters shall be permitted and the 10 points shall be awarded if the above 1
minute condition is fulfilled, whatever the method of motor starting used.
But a mark 0 (zero) shall be given if:
- no hand signal is given ;
- or the competitor starts his motor/s before his hand signal has been acknowledged ;
- or the take-off ground roll begins more than 1 minute after his hand signal was acknowledged.

If you don't signal, you have given up 10 points.

10 free and easy points for electrics.
10 points that cost effort, cut into the 7 minutes, and are not a sure thing for pistons.

[Brett Buck]

Below are the rules for the starting procedure for stunt in FAI, copied straight from their site:

But I have a question.
Judging by the rules, if you forget to signal the judges that you are starting the motor, the flight time starts from when the motor fires up. Does this mean that you don't have to signal the judges and your 7 minutes starts from when the motor starts?
Technically this must mean that if you are worried you won't get a fast start, don't signal the judges and just wait till it fires (within the 3 minutes preparation time) because then your 7 minutes flight time will start....Surely not!!!...But check it out as that's what it says.  
Am I missing something or is this another rule that need fixing as I thought if your motor starts before you signal, you can either stop the motor so that you can signal, or just call an attempt.
The only points that get deducted are the 10 points for starting within 1 minute. ( 4.2.15.2 )

   I think you are correct. We came to this conclusion at the (interminable) pilots meeting at the 2007 TT. In fact for a while we had concluded that you still got the 10 points, but later found the other phrase that said otherwise.

   Brett

[Igor Burger]

Exactly that happened on last WC in Gyula, a guy having troubles to start his engine asked another pilot to start it and flew without 10 points.

[Russell Bond]

Thanks Igor,
This is very handy to know as my son who is only 14 has just learned some maneuvers but he has never started a motor. This means he can enter a novice stunt comp and get me to start it for him...

[Russell Bond]

Maybe I should read the FAI rules a bit further, but I'll ask this question anyway..

I know that if you signal the judge to start and it fires up, you can still shut the motor down and call an attempt if all is not right.
HOWEVER, can you still do that if you forgot to signal the judge (the motor starts) and your flight time therefore has already started, but you haven't taken off yet?
Can you call an attempt in this situation?

I know, read the rules....

[Russell Bond]

Below are the rules for an attempt:
Again, I have a question.
In rule (iii) it says you can call an attempt before the release for the take-off manoeuvre.
However, if you didn't signal the start you lose take-off points anyway, so you are not really doing the take-off manoeuvre for judging.
Does this mean you can't call an attempt, or am I reading too much into it

4.2.7
d) Every registered competitor is entitled to two attempts in each round to make an official flight. An attempt shall have occurred when:
i) the competitor did not pass through the entrance to the contest flight circle within 3 minutes of being officially called to perform a contest flight ;
ii) or the competitor did not release the model aircraft for the take-off manoeuvre within 3 minutes of the start of official timing of the 7 minutes period ;
iii) or if the competitor himself declares an attempt before releasing the model aircraft for the take-off manoeuvre.
iv) or if the competitor fails to make his model aircraft available for the pull test within the time-frame given.

[Steve Helmick]

And some folks wonder why the USA doesn't adopt FAI rules, lock, stock & barrel.  Steve

[Igor Burger]

You have 2 better possibilities:

1/ he can begin starting with proper signal, and after 30 seconds (he need another 30 seconds to get to the handle) he can stop the time and start secon atempt which can be immediately, not aftere 3 flyers. And clear - he can co it depending if motor wants to start.

2/ YOU can start it instead of him, but HE must give start signal. This rules allow.

[Brett Buck]

1/ he can begin starting with proper signal, and after 30 seconds (he need another 30 seconds to get to the handle) he can stop the time and start secon atempt which can be immediately, not aftere 3 flyers.

   Yeah, you can do that, but it's usually a BIG mistake. If it doesn't start right away, you had better darn well be certain you know what is wrong with it, because if you take the attempt immediately, and you can't get it started, you get a DNF/0. I did it myself once, and have seen it happen any number of times.

    Whenever I am coaching, I tell people to *never* do this. Take it off to the side, fix the problem, start it, cut it off, fuel it back up, and go again later. 

    Brett

   

[Igor Burger]

  ... if the problem is experience (we are speaking about a fresh beginner), then you cannot fix it during 30 minutes  ... he just needs longer time to make it running

[Paul Smith]

You have 2 better possibilities:

1/ he can begin starting with proper signal, and after 30 seconds (he need another 30 seconds to get to the handle) he can stop the time and start secon atempt which can be immediately, not aftere 3 flyers. And clear - he can co it depending if motor wants to start.

2/ YOU can start it instead of him, but HE must give start signal. This rules allow.

3/ Use an electric motor with a 20-seceond delay.  Walk to the handle, wait for the proper time, give the signal, score the 10 points and still have the full 7 to fly.

Is this equitable?

[Igor Burger]

it will cause 0 points for landing 

[john e. holliday]

3/ Use an electric motor with a 20-seceond delay.  Walk to the handle, wait for the proper time, give the signal, score the 10 points and still have the full 7 to fly.

Is this equitable?

Paul, I beleive an individual did do that at the Worlds.  I also beleive David Fitzgerald made an inquiry about the situation as no one was holding the plane during the time of launch.  There may be safety rules instituted saying that all planes will be held by a helper until pilot gets full control of the plane with the handle.

[Paul Smith]

Paul, I beleive an individual did do that at the Worlds.  I also beleive David Fitzgerald made an inquiry about the situation as no one was holding the plane during the time of launch.  There may be safety rules instituted saying that all planes will be held by a helper until pilot gets full control of the plane with the handle.

Whether or not the electrian employs a backup holder, the inequitry is the same.

Allow the current 3-minute starting limit.
Start the 7 minutes at the beginning of takeoff.
Give the 10 points to everybody or nobody.

[Brett Buck]

Paul, I beleive an individual did do that at the Worlds.  I also beleive David Fitzgerald made an inquiry about the situation as no one was holding the plane during the time of launch.  There may be safety rules instituted saying that all planes will be held by a helper until pilot gets full control of the plane with the handle.

      When I was safety officer in our club, I was astonished that anyone would set the timer and walk away, but we outlawed it immediately. Someone has to hold on until the motor is at takeoff speed and the pilot signals for release.

    I am not big on nanny-statism think there are a few basic rules we need for electric - always use an arming plug (in the power side, not the signal side) or switch, only insert arming plug or switch when model is restrained, and pilot remain at handle and ready to react until the arming plug/switch is flipped after the flight. Counting on low-logic signals to remain in their state has proven over the years to be a bad idea in every other application, this is much worse. I have seen far too many uncommanded state changes in these types of curcuits and the more modern the electronics, the more prone they are.

    I am particularly concerned with arming the thing in the pits, and hoping you don't get a glitch to keep it from coming to life. There's too many people around, and too much potential for carnage.

    Brett

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Brett,

I couldn't agree more. Thank you for bringing this up. We have been spreading this word throughout the ECL community for the past few years. To my knowledge there is no one left that flies ECL trusting just the timer and leaves an armed and ticking plane unattended while they saunter out to their handle. Everyone seems to understand that it is a risk not worth taking, and there are relatively simple safe solutions to the problem. When flying alone we all use a reliable non-human stooge as a safe backup to our timers delay setting. After the flight ends I use my "Handle Stooge" as a safety device while I walk my plane back to it's launching stooge, and it also keeps my lines 50 cm off the ground while I'm walking the plane around the circle. Other pilots have different methods for securing the handle, the most common seems to be a large metal stake through some form of plastic disk then through the wrist safety strap.

Since everyone has been using these safety measures for the past few years I have not heard of one single ECL mishap during these two stages of before and after flight. It appears that the word has gotten to everyone in ECL. 

All of us who fly ECL are concerned with making the use of a true "Arming Plug" a universal practice. I agree that electronics can fail, but I feel that an even higher probable cause would be an accidental bumping, or pushing of the ON button in the pits, while moving or picking up the plane by an inexperienced non-ECL person. The same goes for the "after flight" pick up. An arming Plug is a good solution to this potential problem. Like you, I am concerned about safety with our models. I try to use a triple system on my planes.  1. The Arming Plug on the positive lead from the battery.  2. A SW to turn on/off the ESC.  3. The normal RED on/off button for the master timer unit.

If anyone is interested in more details, please see the next issue of SN for an E-Stunt article on ECL safety with photos, etc. 

Thanks again for helping spread the word on our ECL safety systems. 

Now, what about WCL using safer solutions, other than using our soft flesh fingers, to start our meat cutters? ..... I'm sorry, I could not resist. 

Regards, 

[Brett Buck]

We have been spreading this word throughout the ECL community for the past few years. To my knowledge there is no one left that flies ECL trusting just the timer and leaves an armed and ticking plane unattended while they saunter out to their handle.

    Oh, there are some. Igor, for instance, in 2008 and 2010 at the WC. I will agree that most of the time, you'll get away with it. But one failure is all it takes.  I am not going to bother with FAI rules issues anymore - while there are a lot of very good people involved on the stunt side, I don't see a consistent good-faith effort to clean up the cesspool that is the FAI rules process. But for AMA, we can do it, pretty easily. I would prefer to see it from a notable person in the Electric group - partly because they know more about it than I do and might come up with something more practical or see the problem more clearly than I do, and partly because of the appearance of it coming from an "outsider". But failing that, I will do it myself next cycle. I also think its a safety code issue, which is somewhat outside the rules cycle.

     Brett

[Dick Pacini]

Brett, Bob Hunt is 100% into electric power, save for old time events.  Last year, I spoke to him on the phone for a couple of hours and he impressed me with his knowledge and experience of battery power.  If I hadn't already bought 5 new IC engines, I might have been swayed.  I first met Bob in 1973, at our first NATS and, last year, we reconnected after 30 some odd years.  I am sure he could offer his opinion on this topic.

[Brett Buck]

Brett, Bob Hunt is 100% into electric power, save for old time events.  Last year, I spoke to him on the phone for a couple of hours and he impressed me with his knowledge and experience of battery power.  If I hadn't already bought 5 new IC engines, I might have been swayed.  I first met Bob in 1973, at our first NATS and, last year, we reconnected after 30 some odd years.  I am sure he could offer his opinion on this topic.

   As it turns out, I discussed exactly this topic with both Bobby and Paul Walker. Bob was the first electric I saw with an arming plug, for instance. I also flew Bob's airplane at the 2007 TT and was mighty impressed with it.
     Brett