Author Topic: Starter "Cup" problems (Read 4488 times)

Steve Helmick · « **on:** January 27, 2009, 09:00:21 PM »

Anybody got a good way to keep the starter cup from spitting out of the socket gizmo? I never had this problem with a Sullivan starter, but my Kavan starter has the cup come out frequently. I don't want to just glue it in, because I may need to reverse it for a spinner nut. I like the starter, otherwise.

Steve

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2009, 09:16:29 PM »

Maybe clean both pieces with rubbing alcohol to remove grease/oil. After that,and it doesn't work, you could try a few small pieces of double sided tape.. Never had the problem with my Royal,Sullivan, or Hobbico starters.

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2009, 09:41:45 PM »

Hi Steve,

The Kavan is a great starter, but I had the same problem with mine. Glue two small pieces of sandpaper on opposite sides of the inside of the cup. Start with very small pieces so that you can pull out the cone to turn it around for your prop nuts. (don't ask me how I know about using too large of a piece of sandpaper! ;-)

I'm glad to see more CL guys starting to use starters. I cringe every time I see a finger flipping an APC or CF prop.

If anyone out there is looking for the best electric starter for CL (or the dark arts), they may want to look here:

http://www.winnerrc.com/EngineAndEquipment/starter.htm#Stand.Jip

This small, geared, selfcontained, powerful starter is worth every penny. You will love using it. ..... You may need to get the one with the 3,000 mAh battery, because all your buddies will want to use it! ;-) I have retired all my other starters (except my great Sullivan 24V with geared belt drive and huge cone for larger engines).

You may want to order the charger with it, it's a good one.

Greg Hart · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2009, 01:11:40 AM »

use rubber cement

John Crocker · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2009, 04:44:11 AM »

Increase the outside diameter with a little masking tape or duct tape. Had to do this on mine and have had no issues since.

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2009, 07:25:10 PM »

if the fit is snug and you can't do the above suggestions. Try spraying some hair spray on the rubber and pop it in wet it might just give enough bite to keep it in, but yet remove when needed. A little BMX trick from when I was a kid.
Tom

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2009, 08:07:29 PM »

Reporting back. Have not field tested this fix, yet, but I cleaned the rubbery insert with alcohol, and gave it one wrap of yaller vinyl electron tape (from Boeing Surplus, of course). The 'rubber' was kinda slick, but probably from mold release compound or somesuch, as it's virtually new. The insert has grooves in it, that match up to splines inside the drive housing (which turns out to be plastic). I cut the tape at each groove, and crammed it in der, which seems to be a decent fix...but we'll have to wait & see.

What we didn't want was a permanent install of the cup in the drive housing. Didn't have rubba cement or hair spray...moose, maybe...but certainly not mine to use. I was gonna drill and tap the housing for a couple of screws, but it just didn't look like a good way ta go, since it's just thin plastic. I may send Hobby Lobby an email, asking if they have a solution...and to give them the idea that there's some sort of a problem, at least. But otherwise, like I said, I like the starter.

I got it with the accessory ni-cad pack, even though I have p-poor luck with ni-bads (sic). I am trying to be good to them, by discharging as thoroughly as possible before recharging. The only problem is, that at the point where it no longer has the torque to start my .46, it will still light a 12v. tail light bulb for a long time. Should I get a more serious 12v bulb, like a headlight? Or would that over heat the wire leads from the battery? Electrons aren't my favorite thing.... $:-\$ Steve

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2009, 09:02:53 PM »

Hi Steve,

Good news: you don't have to discharge the NiCads anymore. We used to have to do that, but it has been many years (>7) since this has been a requirement. The memory problem that this used to solve is no longer with modern NiCads. The very small amount of memory now is insignificant for our uses. We all just use our NiCads and charge them whenever it is convenient.

It is actually tougher on them if you discharge them without using a good quality charger that has conservative settings for the discharge mode which will limit the low end voltage so as not to damage the NiCad by driving the Voltage too low. Modern NiCads are tough batteries and do very well without any discharging needed.

I have the same set up you have and used it for many years without any problems, and never discharged it once other than through normal use. I just topped it off when needed. :-) The Kavan power pack is a nice unit and makes for a neat, light, powerfull, small starter.

Regards,

Bill Heher · « **Reply #8 on:** January 29, 2009, 05:45:37 AM »

Since the cup socket is plastic you could easily scribe some cross-hatch lines on the inner circumference with sharp pick or awl, even an X-acto knife. Just a series of XXXXs between the splines to give it a bit of bite on the rubber cup.

Phil Spillman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2009, 09:22:41 PM »

Hi Steve et al, Last April I went to the Toledo Hobby and RC show and encountered an exhibitor from Kenwood, CA. His product line consists of spinner cones which will not harm plastic spinners! These are called Sky Grip starting inserts. I bought one and tried it out in my Sullivan as well as my Kavan starters. These things do not mar plastic spinners and do work quite well on Aluminium ones as well. Prices are in line with others. The company name is Miller R/C Products 159 Greene Street P.O. Box 425 in Knewood, CA 95452. Their telephone No. is 707-833-5905. None has spun out of its base as yet for me! However I have used the electrician's tape methoe to get a tighter fit on occasion!

Tally Ho!

Phil Spillman

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2009, 10:16:18 PM »

The good ideas just keep coming in! Great! A couple of posts together finally gave me the idea of taking a hot ice pick (like the one that's stuck in my leg right now...but I digress...) and stick it into the plastic socket thang, to make some burrs on the inside...maybe a bent screw driver, melted into those rib thingys. Will it work? Should!

I still want to a) test the tape method I've got done and b) contact Hobby Lobby or maybe Kavan, if I can find an email address. At the price of these things, they should do better. Thanks to Phil for the alternate rubba cup plot. Always good to know these alternatives are available.

Steve

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2009, 11:15:57 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on January 30, 2009, 10:16:18 PM

The good ideas just keep coming in! Great! A couple of posts together finally gave me the idea of taking a hot ice pick (like the one that's stuck in my leg right now...but I digress...) and stick it into the plastic socket thang, to make some burrs on the inside...maybe a bent screw driver, melted into those rib thingys. Will it work? Should!

I still want to a) test the tape method I've got done and b) contact Hobby Lobby or maybe Kavan, if I can find an email address. At the price of these things, they should do better. Thanks to Phil for the alternate rubba cup plot. Always good to know these alternatives are available. Steve

Steve,
I wouldn't be suprised if just cleaning the oil residue off of everything would be the fix. Think about it: its the only thing that has changed since it was new!Should grip like new. I doubt Kavan would release it for sale if it had a design flaw. Or would they?? Maybe thinking too hard here! Here's another suggestion: instead of alcohol, try a rubber rejuvenator they sell for commercial printing presses. It not only removes oils, but actually allows the rubber to expand to its original manufactured diameter/dimensions. I used it for years on industrial AV recorders instead of replacing costly idler wheels and expensive pinch rollers. Amazing stuff. Hopefully you won't have to "re-design" this unit!

I could understand if it was worn out, but...

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2009, 12:38:52 AM »

It is new. The battery has been charged twice. There's no oil. The plastic is...well, plastic; kinda slick. The rubber cup thang is too damned small.

Steve

Richard Grogan · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2009, 01:49:46 AM »

Hopefully they'll send you the right cup or a new starter! Big bux for something thats broke!

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2009, 03:22:50 PM »

Steve is on the right track: "..... the rubber cup thang is too damed small!...."

This would be OK if we could just use another mfg. insert, but it is the rubber cup thang "holder" that is just a little too big for all the standard size insert cups.

This has been a problem for decades with this otherwise excellent starter. Most of the suggestions here solve this minor but irritating problem.

I'm glad to see that Phil brought up the excellent "Miller Insert Cups", they are perfect for our use, I have used them for years and they are still like new. They are soft and don't mar our spinners. Because they are softer and more pliable than the Kavan's or the Sullivan's stock cups they do fit a little tighter, but they still need a little help with the Kanvan's slightly too large female receptacle!

Steve, I used sandpaper (see my prior post) because it was handy and I am basically lazy. But if I had a do over I would make a more permanent fix: I would mix some JB Weld with a little sand (or bird shot) and smear a small amount inside the female receptacle part. It would not take much to make a tight, non slip, fit.

Good Luck, and please let us know if you get a tight fit in the female receptacle part.

PS: You may want to contact Miller, they may have a larger male part by now to fit into the slightly larger female part of the Kavan cup holder?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2009, 08:52:17 PM »

The starter worked just fine today, without any sign of spitting the rubba thang out of the housing. I think I'll leave it alone for awhile.

I got an auto-reply from Hobby Lobby about the problem, saying that there's now a case file, and someone will get back to me very soon. We'll see! They do have a big library of Commonly Asked Questions, but only one had to do with the Kavan starter, and that was something about the battery pack. I think my idea with the heated screwdriver will work fine, if the tape thing doesn't hold up.

Steve

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2009, 06:19:29 PM »

Well, here's the reply from Hobby-Lobby. Looks like I figured out the O-fishal fix. What the heck is PFM? But at least they replied. I'll see if they post this in their FAQ's. I'm actually kinda bummed that Kavan isn't going to have a recall...free rubbers for all owners!

Steve

Steve,
What we do is either wrap a layer or two of electrical tape around it and then put the cup in or tack it in with PFM which still allows it to be flexible.

Is there anything else we can help you with today?

Thanks,

Jay Burkart
Hobby-Lobby
http://www.hobby-lobby.com/support

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #17 on:** February 02, 2009, 08:10:19 PM »

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the update from Hobby Lobby. They are a very good supplier, and have excellent customer service. I think this time they are trying their best to make up for a strange design flaw from an otherwise outstanding company (Kavan).

1. I think you should send them a link to this topic here on SH. There are some good ideas here.

2. I like your hot screwdriver idea the best. It is cheap, permanent, effective, KIS, "and the manly way to fix something!"

3. Here is some info on PFM:

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/adhesive.htm

This product works well with foam to wood.

We used to use the PFM for canopy attachment to our models, it drys clear. Now there is a better product, it is made by Pacer, and should be available anywhere Zap products are sold; it's called "Formula 560 Canopy Glue" It works great!

I would not hold my breath on getting free rubbers from Kavan?

Good Luck,

Dave Gardner · « **Reply #18 on:** February 05, 2009, 01:33:25 AM »

Hey Steve,

The comment about the Miller R/C insert is the right answer. These are made of silicone rubber, grip the spinner and do not spin out!

I've known Hap Miller for several years now, and he makes a great product. It's the one I'm using in my Kavan starter. The starter is great.....the Tower gel-cel battery pack is a little weak, though.

Dave G.

kenneth cook · « **Reply #19 on:** February 05, 2009, 05:32:47 PM »

I don't know if this will work for you but it surely worked for me when I had a problem with my motorcycle. My rubber handgrips would become extremely loose and spin on the bar itself. This can be extremely dangerous when this is all you have to hold on to. I didn't want to have to glue them on the bars because it was extremely difficult to get them off when replacing. I used concentrated dishwashing soap and poured it inside the rubber handgrip. As you know it will bubble which seems for days to rinse out all the soap.I didn't rinse it all out I rinsed for a brief second and let the soap stay in. When I placed them back on the bars they spun all around until about 2 days later when they dried. They haven't moved since. Ken

dirty dan · « **Reply #20 on:** February 05, 2009, 09:03:02 PM »

Steve,

You need not be so cautious with your nicad batteries. To discharge the two 7-cell packs which drive my standard Pylon starter I first hook up 12V light bulbs to each pack--and they are merely tail-light bulbs with suitable leads and a connector.

Or I might use one of several similar devices which use a resistor instead of a bulb. I can get the resistor values for you.

If the packs are destined to be stored for any length of time, after the bulbs wink out or the resistors cool, I simply plug in connectors which have a single lead from the negative to the positive side. Yes, a dead short.

But first ya gotta be sure the packs are well and truly discharged!!

I do this not just because it is good practice for storing nicads, but unlike years past I no longer have any functioning high-zoot, push-a-button-and-forget-it chargers. But I still have and use a simple timer charger. It takes 20 minutes to charge each pack--if they are fully discharged. So I actually want to begin the charge cycle with an empty bucket, just so I don't over-charge while distracted by some other activity.

Dan

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2009, 05:17:54 PM »

Latest update...probably the last. I think I will look for the Miller R/C replacement part, tho the electron tape trick works fine. I had to reverse the cup today, and it still worked well.

And I got another reply from Hobby Lobby...after they sent me a survey to see if I was a happy camper. I told them that while the reply was good, I really hoped for something a little farther from the traditional "Duct Tape or WD-40" type of fix. I'm really not upset with Hobby Lobby, and especially not Jay, the contact there. The most interesting info was that SIG (our SIG) now owns Kavan. I don't know if this means they'll bring production from Germany to USA, or send it to someplace in Asia...but I hope that it comes here, of course. I can't see any reason for leaving production in Germany, anyway.

Steve

Leo Mehl · « **Reply #22 on:** February 18, 2009, 09:47:15 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on January 31, 2009, 08:52:17 PM

The starter worked just fine today, without any sign of spitting the rubba thang out of the housing. I think I'll leave it alone for awhile.

I got an auto-reply from Hobby Lobby about the problem, saying that there's now a case file, and someone will get back to me very soon. We'll see! They do have a big library of Commonly Asked Questions, but only one had to do with the Kavan starter, and that was something about the battery pack. I think my idea with the heated screwdriver will work fine, if the tape thing doesn't hold up. Steve

Hey Steve, You could just start the engine by flipping the prop by hand like us poor people do. That way the judges won't deduct any points for starting with electric starter. No thats bad idea since electric starter is already in your possesion. If I judge you it will be 2 points off.

Bob Reeves · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2009, 07:44:36 AM »

Ge guys, glad I don't fly in your territory, my Somethin'Extra has flat wing tips and I use an electric starter to start the Saito.. I'd be behind the eight ball before I even took off

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2009, 08:50:02 AM »

Is that like the judge that didn't like my plane and scored me low enough that I went from first to fourth. Everybody thought I had the first place sewed up after that flight. I did too as the plane felt great in the second round.

Any judge that deducts points for using starter or looks of a plane should be replaced. 'My opinion. DOC Holliday

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #25 on:** February 21, 2009, 06:55:33 PM »

Doc...When the Judges do Appearance judging, on the circle or not, they have to agree on the same number. They are not allowed to award two different scores for Appearance. If a Judge wrote down the wrong number, then the tabulation crew should have corrected it. This is a problem in the 2nd round, because somebody has to make a list and bring forward the AP's from the first round, when judging was done. Sometimes the Judges make the list, and sometimes the tabulation crew has to do it.

If I fly with Leo judging, I'll start so far down in the basement, I'll never have a chance to beat that friggin' electron burner. Even Leo wouldn't want to be responsible for that. Or would he?

I'm mucking about with CF finger choppers right now. It will NOT get flipped with any of my fingers. I need them to work for a living. Several of the CF choppers are 3 bladers...pretty much 100% makes the "electric finger" get the duty. Leo can do what he wants, when he uses CF props. I'm all about not bleeding. I've seen Leo bleed. He hasn't seen me bleed, and hopefully, I'll keep it that way.

Steve

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #26 on:** February 21, 2009, 10:54:34 PM »

Hey Steve, my electron burner is just like your starter, but I use my starter to fly my plane instead of starting one of them thar' noisy smokey things!
you know, your making me think about staying in Intermediate just so I can take ya down with electron power,,AGAIN

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #27 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:33:19 PM »

Ya? Well, Mike's been telling me to move to Advanced, which I'm thinking about. I'd hate to leave Pete F. and Dane C. all alone, tho, and I have unfinished business with Richard E. Besides, my wife wants more dust collectors in the livingroom. Well, she hasn't said as much, but how could she not?

Steve

john e. holliday · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2009, 09:04:25 PM »

Mark, have you been flying your electron burner in cold temps yet? Seems some of the guys in this part of our great country are having battery problems. Something about circuits going open and closed at bad times. Also run times are sometimes are erratic. Guess you shouldn't take them out in 20F degrees. DOC Holliday

Rudy Taube · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2009, 01:07:59 PM »

Hi Doc,

Your right, just like your car battery, our ECL batteries will have problems in cold WX unless we compensate for the cold. It is not hard to do, many ERC flyers fly in this cold and there is no reason we ECL flyers should not have winter flying fun too!

In cold WX areas you guys just have extra large batteries in your cars to compensate for the decrease in available cranking power. You could do what we ERC/ECL flyers do and just warm up your battery before starting your cars (like in a warm garage, or live in the South?

)

Most ERC/ECL cold WX flyers use an ice chest with some form of heating device, electric sock warmers, chemical warming sticks, small elec. 12V heater, etc. to keep their batteries warm until they are ready to fly. This keeps them at max. efficiency. Anywhere between 60 and 105 is fine, the ideal is around 87F for our Lithium Polomar batteries, and most other batteries too.

The good news is that once the motor starts, the battery warms up to a safe and efficient range, and holds this temp very uniformly throughout the ECL flight. We can easily close off the cooling air intakes to adjust the temps for winter cold.

BTW: Our E motors love cold, the colder it is the better they run! All the other electronics (ESC, Timer, etc.) do not have any problems with cold.

The real question is: Why in h%$& would anyone want to fly CL in temps below 0C ?

You should be inside taking advantage of your great "BOM building" WX!

Here is a very good battery link for anyone interested in info. on any type of battery:

http://www.buchmann.ca/Article4-Page1.asp

Warm Regards,

Quote from: john e. holliday on February 22, 2009, 09:04:25 PM

Mark, have you been flying your electron burner in cold temps yet? Seems some of the guys in this part of our great country are having battery problems. Something about circuits going open and closed at bad times. Also run times are sometimes are erratic. Guess you shouldn't take them out in 20F degrees. DOC Holliday

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2009, 02:00:31 PM »

I have not yet taken it out flying in the cold,, somehow flying when its below freezing just doesnt appeal to me,, Im using FLoyds method, if it aint as warm as my age,, lol,, well pretty close anyway.
HOWEVER, that being said, upon reading on the rc universe forums, I found discussion of a nifty little electonical device thats just coincidentally the right size to keep my batteries in. and interestingly enough, it can warm them. It plugs into the cig lighter on the car and you set the desired temp. I plan on taking advantage of this for those nice comfy contests in Portland during April when its almost warm. What Rudy says agrees with everything I have read, and the RC guys here experience,, some issues can be had flying with cold batteries.
Steve,,
well if you practice with Pete, like Rod did last year, soon you can be collecting the Advanced shelf cluttering devices,, Now I just need Pete P to move over here, or Randy, or Pat, or, well heck ANYBODY