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Author Topic: Standard vent vs Uni-flo  (Read 8610 times)

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2015, 07:30:44 PM »
"OK, I understand the mechanics of adjustment, tho' I can't grasp the physics involved."

Terry, if its any help here the uniflow's guiding principle is that the negative pressure above the fuel level ALWAYS equals the positive pressure below it.

The point of adjusting the air inlet's position away from symmetrical is to compensate for the asymmetry of the engines run eg. - the engine may need more fuel pressure when up right so its hardly beneficial having the tanks supplying a constant pressure in any orientation.

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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2015, 08:04:22 PM »
With a bit of clarification I'm sure it'll be helpful Chris.
Tim says in a previous response "In a uniflow tank, the point at which the vent opens into the tank is at atmospheric pressure, and most of the tank is pulling a slight vacuum."
Is his + pressure point your "below" and his - pressure point your "above"?

And while I'd considered asking in a separate thread, since you've conveniently brought it up ( ;D), why does the engine's fuel demand vary with flight position?
EDIT: Upon reflection, I think I should be asking why, since constant pressure is the point of uni-flo, does the engine's fuel supply pressure vary?
Gravitational/centrifugal forces upon the remaining fuel?

Terry

BTW, from the ratio of viewers to responders, I hope many others are having their unasked questions answered here.

And I'm happy to report that now, after several previous unsuccessful attempts, I understand Nigel's explanation here:
http://www.fraserker.com/heli/uniflow/how_uniflow_works.htm
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 11:24:58 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #52 on: October 27, 2015, 08:11:14 PM »
Hi Bill, with clunk tanks its a given that the fuel pickup moves but .......the air inlet is only at a fixed position to it if its physically tied to it.
As in both move as one.

Sometimes the air inlet is a rigid brass tube and the fuel inlet is flexible silicon and as such the distance between them will vary.

Thanks for the explanation, Chris. I had researched on building clunk uniflows but didn't realize some were using a fixed uniflow tube. I guess I got as far as the Tulsa Gluedobber's site, which has all you need to make one, and stopped there. Because the uniflow vent location in relationship to the fuel pick-up is somewhat critical, it never occurred to me to have one fixed and the other flexible.


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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #53 on: October 27, 2015, 11:12:33 PM »
Excellent Tim - thanks!  H^^

The diagram shows 4 tubes, with separate fill/U-vent lines - is the separate fill tube necessary?

Terry

In addition to the other comments about the extra, unnecessary "4th" tube for filling it is "essential" to note that any vent other than the uniflow vent "MUST" be capped for the uniflow to function properly.  The uniflow vent must be the only opening in the tank as it is the action of fuel being drawn from the tank that requires that air be brought in thru the vent that is instrumental to the constant fuel delivery and consistent engine run until the uniflow vent is uncovered as the tank nears empty.

Ted

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #54 on: October 27, 2015, 11:26:50 PM »
Wow! That didn't confuse me at all Tim - I think I finally understand!  #^

But, at the risk of quickly getting in over my head with the physics, the partial tank vacuum comes from fuel draw and an on-going delay in the vent's attempt to equalize internal pressure with atmospheric?
(I can mount and adjust a tank now, thanks to the education I've received here, but it bugs me to not understand the why of things.)

Delay has nothing to do with it (sorry).  This is one of those places where it may help to think backwards: the partial tank vacuum must happen, because if it doesn't the fuel above the uniflow vent would just flow out the vent.

With a bit of clarification I'm sure it'll be helpful Chris.
Tim says in a previous response "In a uniflow tank, the point at which the vent opens into the tank is at atmospheric pressure, and most of the tank is pulling a slight vacuum."
Is his + pressure point your "below" and his - pressure point your "above"?

Yes

BTW, from the ratio of viewers to responders, I hope many others are having their unasked questions answered here.

You ask good questions...
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2015, 12:09:58 AM »
RSM sells well made chicken hoppers. $18. Worth it. Brodak also. They work well. Muffler pressure to uniflo vent is sweet. Usually it works. Engine runs same from beginning to end. Vibration issues, common in profiles, can sabotage the uniflo causing engine weirdness. Foam and bubbles make run erratic, uniflo exacerbates this condition. Usually capping the uniflo and running pressure to the overflow solves this. Engine leans up slightly during the flight. Not a problem.

I have read many different theories on how uniflo works. Explanations vary.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 01:06:30 AM by Dennis Moritz »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2015, 12:33:44 AM »
I have read many different theories on how uniflo works. Explanations vary.

   Only one is correct, and it is not at all mysterious, It's a fundamental physical principle that is taught in junior high science - the pressure of a fluid is proportional to the depth.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2015, 01:02:57 AM »
Right.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #58 on: October 28, 2015, 02:16:26 AM »
Brett is right,and the "depth" or head pressure perceived by the fuel inlet  is exactly where the air inlet (or equaliser) comes in.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2015, 07:07:27 AM »
How do you account for engine breaking? Among other variables. If the uniflo hitch up created a constant pressure that accurately countered the momentum shift of the burnt up fuel, fuel head perceived by the engine would be constant even when model nose was pointed up or down. A well setup uniflo does not preclude tuning in an engine break.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2015, 07:35:49 AM »
How do you account for engine breaking? Among other variables. If the uniflo hitch up created a constant pressure that accurately countered the momentum shift of the burnt up fuel, fuel head perceived by the engine would be constant even when model nose was pointed up or down. A well setup uniflo does not preclude tuning in an engine break.

     What the heck are you talking about? It sets a constant pressure WRT fuel burn at the point of the open end of the vent.  It certainly doesn't ensure that the fuel delivery pressure is constant at the needle end in all conditions. The exact same principle applies to the rest of the system, so, on the ground, point the nose up, and the fuel delivery at the needle is atmospheric pressure at the vent minus the pressure head difference related to the vertical distance from the end of the vent to the needle. Point it nose down, same thing, except it adds to the pressure.

   It makes the fuel pressure independent of the fuel remaining, and nothing else. All the other pressure variation effects still exist more-or-less unchanged.

    Moreover, the "break" has less to do with fuel delivery pressure than it does with load on the engine. Compare from ground to air. Start a Fox, and you set it just barely into a constant 2-stroke. With a suction tank, when you take off, the fuel deliver pressure goes up. With a uniflow tank, it goes down (again from the same physical principle about pressure head and depth). In either case, after about a lap or so, its running in a 4-stroke. That's because the *load* went down, not because the pressure went up. Same with maneuvering - when you first start a corner, the pressure goes up, dramatically, as the airplane rapidly decelerates. You might think it would go dead rich because, effectively, it's the same as pointing the nose down. But in fact, it breaks into a 2-stroke. Plus all the other counter-examples (like 45 degree circling flight). Sometimes the pressure matters and the engine response follows the pressure, but many times, it goes in the opposite direction to the pressure. You can even model it on the bench, by changing prop load without moving the needle. It also shows, dramatically, how much unload there is, when you have to change your 12" 3-blade into an 8-4 2-blade to get the in-flight RPM.

     In fact, many problems with engine runways can also be attributed to the same issue, when the fuel draw is minimal. With suction, once it takes off, the pressure is higher than static on the ground for the first part of the run, and everything is OK. As the fuel runs out, the pressure drops, leading to the well-known speeding up as the flight goes on. How much it changes depends on the width of the tank. Up to a point, the system is predictable, but if the tank it too wide, the pressure drops excessively towards the end and the system goes, effectively, unstable, as the engine can no longer suck the fuel that far "uphill", the speed increased, the pressure drop increases, etc, in a wild runaway that only stops when the engine goes so lean it starts to sag.

    Convert the exact same tank to uniflow, change nothing else - and it happens almost immediately at launch, because the fuel pressure in a uniflow system from start to finish is the same as it is in a suction system at the end of the flight. There is a theory amongst nitwits that "uniflow causes runaways", because they don't notice that their suction tank does exactly the same thing at the end of the run. The real cause is a combination of inadequate fuel draw and an excessively wide tank.

   That's the only issue I have with Terry's drawing. I would put the "bottom" of the tank up against the fuselage, instead of the "side" to get less pressure head drop on suction and an overall higher fuel pressure on uniflow.

      Brett

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2015, 10:28:37 AM »
As I feared Brett, I'm immediately beyond the remnants of 50 yo high school physics left in my head, so I'll content myself with a basic understanding of how to make/modify/adjust a uni-flo tank.
One point of confusion though: your comment on too-wide tanks and the drawings.
I should have noted at the time, but I think you're aware they represent profile side-views.
I think of width as spanwise, so that rotating the tank would make it wider.
Would you clarify please?

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2015, 10:49:28 AM »
Hey Terry:

The whole act of spinning an airplane around on strings tends to make the terminology confusing.

If all else could be made equal, you'd want a tank that doesn't extend much to the outside edge of the circle from the spraybar.  When you're flying, going from outside in is pulling fuel "uphill", and that causes the problems that Brett was talking about.

You'd like to make a tank that is short up and down (with reference to the ground), because that helps with sloshing.  But then the tank gets too wide (from inside the circle to outside), which affects the motor run if it's got a fixed pickup.

So if you're running a clunk tank, you want to mount it so that the wide edge goes up and down, and the short edge goes from inside the circle to outside.  You couldn't do this with a fixed pickup unless you used a chicken-hopper, but with a clunk it works just fine.

(As an aside, you can mount the tank to the inside face of the fuselage, with the motor on the outside.  Then the centripetal effect is always slinging fuel "downhill" to the engine from the tank.  This has some advantages, but people look at you oddly when you show up at the flying field.)
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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #63 on: October 28, 2015, 11:04:10 AM »
Hey Terry, the basic junior-high physics to remember can be condensed into a fairly small package:

1: If you've got a hole in a tank that's open to the atmosphere, and there's no liquid gushing in or out, then the pressure in the tank at the level of the hole is atmospheric pressure.  This is what a uniflow vent does -- as long as the vent tube is filled with air, the "hole" in the tank is the opening of the uniflow vent inside the tank.

2: The pressure difference between any two points in any vessel filled with liquid is proportional to the amount of drop between those two points.  How much it is gets a bit confusing in our toy airplanes because the airplane is maneuvering which means that the 'g' forces aren't pointing down and they're almost always greater than one g, but that doesn't change the pressure difference being dependent on drop.

So if you have a tank that has a hole in it right next to the fuel pickup (i.e., a uniflow tank) then the pressure isn't going to vary with fuel load.

But remember that the tube from the tank to the spraybar hole is also a vessel filled with liquid.  This means that if the pickup is to the outside of the circle from the spraybar, then the centripetal acceleration of the plane will tend to fling fuel away from the spraybar, which creates a vacuum that the engine has to overcome to feed fuel (this is the advantage of mounting your tank to the inside of the engine).  This also means that if the pickup is below the spraybar (because you're climbing) then there will be a vacuum at the spraybar.

Just keep those two facts in mind, and think hard about them, and you can work your way through most of the nonsense that people throw at you about tanks.  The rest mostly has to do with fluid dynamics (tubes too small and fuel changing viscosity with oil mix and temperature), things that don't have anything to do with fuel flow (some engines seem to run differently depending on where they're pointed, and all engines run differently depending on how they're loaded, sometimes in surprising ways), and practical considerations (like pinhole leaks or things clogging your needle valve).
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #64 on: October 28, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »

So if you're running a clunk tank, you want to mount it so that the wide edge goes up and down, and the short edge goes from inside the circle to outside. 

That's what I intended to represent in the drawings.

(As an aside, you can mount the tank to the inside face of the fuselage, with the motor on the outside.  Then the centripetal effect is always slinging fuel "downhill" to the engine from the tank.  This has some advantages, but people look at you oddly when you show up at the flying field.)

Actually, I ran that set-up on a now-defunct Flite Streak.
People look at me oddly as soon as I begin to stumble around the in the circle anyhoo, so if it's advantageous I'm for it.  ;D
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #65 on: October 28, 2015, 11:49:07 AM »

2: The pressure difference between any two points in any vessel filled with liquid is proportional to the amount of drop between those two points.

Drop = distance?


  How much it is gets a bit confusing in our toy airplanes because the airplane is maneuvering which means that the 'g' forces aren't pointing down and they're almost always greater than one g, but that doesn't change the pressure difference being dependent on drop.

Because those forces act equally upon every point in the fluid?


But remember that the tube from the tank to the spraybar hole is also a vessel filled with liquid.  This means that if the pickup is to the outside of the circle from the spraybar, then the centripetal acceleration of the plane will tend to fling fuel away from the spraybar, which creates a vacuum that the engine has to overcome to feed fuel (this is the advantage of mounting your tank to the inside of the engine).  This also means that if the pickup is below the spraybar (because you're climbing) then there will be a vacuum at the spraybar.

I thought the vacuum at the spraybar was created by Venturi effect from piston movement, sucking air into the crankcase past the spraybar hole(s), thereby drawing fuel.
I suspect that notion is wrong, as I don't see acceleration forces on the fuel increasing that vacuum.

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #66 on: October 28, 2015, 12:38:13 PM »
Drop = distance?

Drop = distance, but only in the direction of the local "down" (basically whatever distance a plumb bob would point at any given moment). 

Because those forces act equally upon every point in the fluid?

Yes.

I thought the vacuum at the spraybar was created by Venturi effect from piston movement, sucking air into the crankcase past the spraybar hole(s), thereby drawing fuel.
I suspect that notion is wrong, as I don't see acceleration forces on the fuel increasing that vacuum.

When I said "vacuum at the spraybar" I was referring to the vacuum on the inside, which the vacuum on the outside, due to the Venturi effect, has to overcome.  If you had a pressurized system (muffler, crankcase, or bladder), then the venturi wouldn't have to work as hard (or at all with crankcase or bladder pressure) to pull the fuel out of the spraybar.
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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #67 on: October 28, 2015, 01:20:49 PM »
Appreciate all the explanations, theory and tweaks to convert an RC clunk tank to UniflowTM. My first iteration attempts on my S1 Ringmaster and McCoy 35 RH and 3 oz clunk tank didn't pan out, couldn't get consistent run. I resorted to the standard vented and works fine, but as stated will lean out toward end of run, which for now I can live with.

Also, appreciate the input on using muffler pressure with the UniflowTM vent. Will keep the 35 unmuffled, but will keep in mind for the future.

Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #68 on: October 28, 2015, 02:48:02 PM »
Two out of three correct isn't bad Tim, I must have learned something so far.  :)

Is there a simple explanation for the source of the partial vacuum in the tank and spraybar?
Is there a down-side to muffler pressure?

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Online Tim Wescott

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #69 on: October 28, 2015, 03:02:46 PM »
Is there a simple explanation for the source of the partial vacuum in the tank and spraybar?

Yes.  The opening of the uniflow vent is below most of the fluid in the tank, and all the weight of that fluid pulls down.  So in order for the fluid to not just run out of the uniflow vent the pressure at the "top" needs to be less than atmospheric.

Did you ever take a straw, stick it into your drink, cap the end with your finger and pull out a straw-full of drink?  Then you take your finger off the end and it all comes out in a whoosh (possibly accompanied by some dismayed comments from your nearest female relative)?  The reason that the liquid stayed in the straw when your finger capped it was because there was a partial vacuum at the top of the liquid (to the tune of 1/2PSI per inch of liquid in the straw).  The reason that the liquid came out when you uncapped the top was because that partial vacuum went away.  The reason that your nearest & dearest was dismayed is because females have an instinctive distrust of anything that involves men aiming streams of liquid accurately.

Is there a down-side to muffler pressure?

I know that some people don't like it but many do.  I believe that it has a certain self-regulating effect (more engine speed = more pressure = more fuel = less engine speed), which is either good or bad depending on whether you're seeking a strong 2/4 break or not.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #70 on: October 28, 2015, 03:07:21 PM »

Is there a down-side to muffler pressure?

Terry
downside,, some exhaust residue will get back into the tank,, ( I never gave a rip about this personally,, and never found any more than color)

on the upside,, one gain is that in MY experience,, I had observed the engine leaning and richening as I went around the circle into and out of the wind,, due to the pressure on the uniflow vent in the airstream,, the muffler pressure eliminated that annoyance
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #71 on: October 28, 2015, 03:44:18 PM »
Tank vacuum is clear now Tim, spraybar vacuum not so much.
Or at all, actually.
What causes it?

And I like muffler pressure until I find I don't.  ;D

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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #72 on: October 28, 2015, 05:00:44 PM »
And while I'd considered asking in a separate thread, since you've conveniently brought it up ( ;D), why does the engine's fuel demand vary with flight position?
EDIT: Upon reflection, I think I should be asking why, since constant pressure is the point of uni-flo, does the engine's fuel supply pressure vary?
Gravitational/centrifugal forces upon the remaining fuel?

Terry

Good question.

I see the engine as (obviously) a pump, an asymmetrical pump that works more efficiently in certain orientations than others. It simply breathes better one way than the other.

The question more correctly be posed as "why wouldn't it vary with flight position?"

Could be down to condensation or fuel pooling in the transfers and it clears its sinuses better in one orientation, venturi direction, spraybar height, angle to the wind, exhaust port rotation etc.

The engine can only induct what it exhausts and if it can't clear the same percentage of residual charge due to varying G forces than it can't induct the same percentage either.

But as to exactly why that happens - good luck tracking it down mate!
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #73 on: October 28, 2015, 05:13:06 PM »
Good enough Chris - there are certainly some depths of knowledge which I simply will not attempt to plumb.  ;D

But I'm still curious about internal spraybar vacuum.

Terry

Edit:
After thinking hard about it as Tim suggested, I found this: "The air starts out at atmospheric pressure, goes into the venturi, speeds up, the pressure goes down and the fuel is drawn in by that lower pressure. This is called the Bernoulli effect and that's what a VENTURI does."

I sorta knew that, so is the low pressure in the venturi extending into the spraybar, as this (non-model engine) diagram indicates, the partial vacuum source?

Terry
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 06:48:55 PM by Terry Caron »
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #74 on: October 28, 2015, 07:29:35 PM »
Really don't like that word "vacuum" as it implies a void, nothingness.

Far better to think of this as areas of varying pressure, high pressure is the driving energy and low pressure wants to be equalised by it.
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Offline Terry Caron

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #75 on: October 28, 2015, 07:39:58 PM »
No prob (or probs  ;D) Chris - I say "nineteen", you say "nineteen".  LL~

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2015, 02:09:05 PM »
Hi.

I couldn't read the whole thread but one function of fuel head pressure variation in engine adjustment seems to be completely neglected here. I mean the tank's sideways position. I've seen many cases where the engine is blamed for instance for lack of power in overhead or not ideal power supply, when the origin of problems is in fuel system.
Especially engines like DR and similar are sensitive for it. With Retro for example, the ideal position of fuel pick-up inside fuel tank is 5..10mm outside the point where fuel sprays out of spraybar. Obviously this calls for a side mounted engine or fat fuselage. But of course, using no nitro also helps as it's easier to play with tank position when tank is smaller.
The simple logic is that inboard tank richens the setting in low maneuvres when the model likes to sped up in windy weather, and it leans and gives more power, ot just better running stability in overhead maneuvres.
L

Offline Bill Johnson

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Re: Standard vent vs Uni-flo
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2015, 12:50:21 PM »
Hi.

I couldn't read the whole thread but one function of fuel head pressure variation in engine adjustment seems to be completely neglected here. I mean the tank's sideways position. I've seen many cases where the engine is blamed for instance for lack of power in overhead or not ideal power supply, when the origin of problems is in fuel system.
Especially engines like DR and similar are sensitive for it. With Retro for example, the ideal position of fuel pick-up inside fuel tank is 5..10mm outside the point where fuel sprays out of spraybar. Obviously this calls for a side mounted engine or fat fuselage. But of course, using no nitro also helps as it's easier to play with tank position when tank is smaller.
The simple logic is that inboard tank richens the setting in low maneuvers when the model likes to sped up in windy weather, and it leans and gives more power, ot just better running stability in overhead maneuvers.
L


Thanks for the post, Lauri! I was wondering, as I have a very wide wedge tank on one profile plane, how much additional pressure differential was needed to keep fuel flowing sufficiently to overcome the centrifugal force on the fuel, and what affect it had during maneuvers. Probably a good reason to ditch the old wedge type tanks and go to the newer versions that are more box-like and don't extend outboard so much, or just make a couple uniflow tanks out of the clunk tanks sitting around.  H^^
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