News:



  • April 19, 2024, 06:43:49 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Standard tank in a full Fuse  (Read 801 times)

Offline kevin king

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1536
Standard tank in a full Fuse
« on: June 07, 2022, 12:57:24 AM »
Hi All, A Friend of mine bought an ARF BI Slob and i got him the recommended Standard vent metal tank. I am assuming he will use a typical  copper fill tube that exits the inboard side of the fuse, slightly higher than the Tank and face it into the airstream? Am I correct that this vent will then be connected to the top vent in the tank? And the bottom overflow vent gets capped after fueling? Kind of like the same set up as a Metal uniflow tank on a full fuse ship? Will that work? Ive never used a standard vent tank in a full body plane before.

Kevin

Offline Dave Hull

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1908
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2022, 01:37:10 AM »
Standard vent---leave both open

Online bob whitney

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 2248
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2022, 05:26:26 AM »
why
rad racer

Online Dave_Trible

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6146
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2022, 05:40:38 AM »
The standard vent tank has the tube entering the top of the tank running inside to the bottom and inversely the bottom-entering tube runs to the top of the tank inside. In this way a fresh supply of air can enter the tank whether upright or inverted.  To cap one vent is to cut off replacement air in one mode or the other creating an engine killing vacuum in the tank.  Uniflow venting allows a head of air pressure inside the tank to develop replacing lost fuel and to one degree or another, pressurize fuel delivery.

Dave
AMA 20934
FAA Certificate FA3ATY4T94

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1108
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2022, 05:46:37 AM »
Typical for standard vent is to leave both vents open.  The idea is that when right side up, the vent tube that exits the tank at the bottom is extended inside the tank above the fuel, allowing atmospheric pressure above the fuel.  In the upright scenario, the vent that starts above the tank body and continues inside the tank to the bottom has no effect, as the first mentioned vent allows in air easily.  In the inverted scenario, the two vent tubes swap roles.

For a plane that is largely upright, another setup is possible, capping the atmospheric vent and allowing the fuel-covered vent to bubble in air.

Offline kevin king

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1536
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2022, 12:43:46 AM »
My next question is about the Siphoning phenomena. Ive read filing the vents help prevent this,  But since the tank sits enclosed in the fuse, can he attach a vent on the inboard side of the fuse pointed into the airstream or does he just run both top and bottom vents straight out of the top and bottom of the fuse like you have stated? My goal is to minimize any fuel blowing out of the tank vents on to the finish.  Sorry if it sounds like I'm being Difficult. I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether he should or should not use the 'L' shaped vent on the inboard side of the fuse.
Kevin

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13733
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2022, 10:53:36 AM »
My next question is about the Siphoning phenomena. Ive read filing the vents help prevent this,  But since the tank sits enclosed in the fuse, can he attach a vent on the inboard side of the fuse pointed into the airstream or does he just run both top and bottom vents straight out of the top and bottom of the fuse like you have stated? My goal is to minimize any fuel blowing out of the tank vents on to the finish.  Sorry if it sounds like I'm being Difficult. I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether he should or should not use the 'L' shaped vent on the inboard side of the fuse.
Kevin

     Unfortunately none of the above solutions work all the time. While it kinds of makes sense to try to put positive pressure on each vent (by angling the ends or aiming them forward), what frequently happens is that air will come in one vent and fuel will be forced out the other vent by the pressure. The fact that the engine happens to also be sucking fuel out is almost irrelevant because the fuel flow rate is negligible. The fuel blowing problem will keep happening until both vents are in the ullage. It doesn't happen every time, but is common enough that if you are worried about raw fuel you don't want to use it as supplied

     The more reliable solution is to make sure that at least one vent goes all the way to the top inboard edge of the tank, and the other can be anywhere, because all you are going to use the second tube for is fill the tank, and then plug it after it you fill. This is exactly like a uniflow tank, just with the uniflow vent on the inboard side instead of somewhere toward the edge, so you get a falling fuel pressure the entire flight. This is much less prone to the "unwetted tube" leakage because, more or less, there is no fuel at the vent after you have run 30-45 seconds, even inverted under maneuvering.

   It is less clear that this will work well with the typical Bi-Slob flight, where the fuel would be expected to be all over the place during the crazy gyrations. My best guess is that in addition to the very top and inboard corner, you also want to put the vent tube as far forward as possible, so it stays uncovered when in hover or other post-stall flight.

   But I am curious - the ARF BiSlob is monokoted even on the fuse, so, aside from the mess and loss of capacity, it should be pretty immune to raw fuel. Many a very nice Nobler, built straight off the Green Box plans including the tank and finished with dope, have been messed up by raw fuel from the standard tank blowing out in a stream for the first part of the flight. The mess is assumed - with typically no muffler and Fox Superfuel, all that oil goes everywhere anyway, and the raw fuel is a minor consideration.

   Brett

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22769
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2022, 12:45:31 PM »
If you are using a standard tank and it has not been tinkered with just connect both the fill vent and over flow with a piece of tubing.  Cut a vee halfway .in the middle of the tubing.  Then you will have a tank that operates like a uni-flo tank.  It works even when the Bi-Slob is hanging on the prop. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13733
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2022, 03:41:12 PM »
If you are using a standard tank and it has not been tinkered with just connect both the fill vent and over flow with a piece of tubing.  Cut a vee halfway .in the middle of the tubing.  Then you will have a tank that operates like a uni-flo tank.

No, not uniflow, but does solve the fuel blowing out problem.

       Brett

Offline kevin king

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1536
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2022, 12:47:58 AM »
Thank you Brett and John. And oh ya, i forgot that an ARF is plastic covering and there isnt any concern  about fuel getting on it! 
 

Offline Peter in Fairfax, VA

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1108
Re: Standard tank in a full Fuse
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2022, 07:05:15 AM »
Interesting that folks think plastic film covering is fuel proof.  My experience is not the same.  What I find is that while the spans between seams are impervious, the seams themselves soak up fuel.

thanks,

Peter


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here