Speaking of Handles...

[Randy Powell]

Gee, Isky, how do you account for uneven line stretch? 

Yea, I suppose it would be good to keep the bars even.

You'd have to see Dan's setup. He has a unique handle. Very cool, actually. The "clips" are piano wire with a slot milled on one end and a circle clip that holds them in the holes of the handle. An eyelet put in at the other end. Pretty labor intensive to make, but it should last virtually forever. I doubt Dan invented it, but his implementation is pretty slick.

[Bradley Walker]

Gee, Isky, how do you account for uneven line stretch? 

Yea, I suppose it would be good to keep the bars even.

You'd have to see Dan's setup. He has a unique handle. Very cool, actually. The "clips" are piano wire with a slot milled on one end and a circle clip that holds them in the holes of the handle. An eyelet put in at the other end. Pretty labor intensive to make, but it should last virtually forever. I doubt Dan invented it, but his implementation is pretty slick.

That sounds cool. 

I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...

...but heck, I don't know what the rules are any more.  Now that they are online, they just seem to change at will.

[Randy Powell]

Brad,

With Dan's handle, standard scissor type clips are used, They hook to the little bars that attach to the handle. The little bars are of different lengths to adjust handle neutral. Trust me, they will pass any pull test that the plane is like to be subjected to.

[Joe Yau]

Just wondering when these handle will be available?

[Scott Hartford]

I like it. I'll buy some. Keep up the good work.....

[Marvin Denny]

I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...


  Show mw ANYWHERE a requirement for line clips to be "approved".  The ONLY requirement EVER has been that the clips be tested or pulled . and be capable of withstanding the total line pull for each clip.  That was true even back in the days that George Aldrich was trying to get the Luxor Brand of clips banned.  He never got them banned.

  Bigiron

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Kaz's "MNT" handles are shown below. Howard uses one. They're aluminum and balsa, and all appear to have cables, so they're not for me.  The reason there are photos of multiple handles, is because they are available in various sizes, to fit hands from small to large. Something like 5mm increments? As near as I can figure, Kaz has a single jpeg made up from multiple pictures for his home page, so you'll have to find the handles down a few rows and to the right. <sigh>
   

About Brad's handle. "Heat treated 6061 aluminum" doesn't impress me. I've never seen any 6061 that wasn't heat treated to T6 condition, and that's just the way it is. I machine the stuff almost every day. It's soft and gummy and not nice to machine. But it is probably the least expensive aluminum you can get, the normal commercial grade stuff that lots of stuff is made from, and reasonably corrosion resistant. I'm not saying it's a bad choice of material. But to point out that it's heat treated makes it sound special, and it's definitely not anything special.  In fact, it looks like a useful piece, since it doesn't have cables! How could we modify these to actually fit us? 

I yam (sic) pretty happy to make the Tom Morris and Ted handles fit my hand, tho. Kits (or tailor made) are the way to go, IMO. I used Mike Haverly's "Ted" handle a few weeks ago, and it was about 1/4" too narrow for my paw. I didn't like that feature, but it's a nice handle.  Steve



"Soft and gummy?" I will say that 7075 would be a better choice. 6061 Properly heat treated to T6, is not soft and gummy. "Trying not to come across as an expert, being an "Aircraft Blacksmith" (Structural Repairman) for around 40 years...6061 T6 will work fine for this type of application. BTW...I will agree that 6061 in an annealed condition is not a machinist's favorite material.

Nice Handles Brad.
Norm

[john e. holliday]

I thought you had to use "approved" line clips per the rules (I know swivels were illegal)...


  Show mw ANYWHERE a requirement for line clips to be "approved".  The ONLY requirement EVER has been that the clips be tested or pulled . and be capable of withstanding the total line pull for each clip.  That was true even back in the days that George Aldrich was trying to get the Luxor Brand of clips banned.  He never got them banned.

  Bigiron

Marvin and all.  in the Control Line General Section item 5.0 it states that swivel clips are not allowed anywhere in the control system as far as connecting the handle to the lines or the lines to the airplane leadouts.  Just read the rule.  DOC Holliday

[Marvin Denny]

Marvin and all.  in the Control Line General Section item 5.0 it states that swivel clips are not allowed anywhere in the control system as far as connecting the handle to the lines or the lines to the airplane leadouts.  Just read the rule.  DOC Holliday

  Doc--- "swivels ARE NOT CLIPS.  You can take the swivels off the rest of the clips.  Again--- SHOW ME.

  Bigiron

[Bill Little]

Yep, Brad, when will we see this one??  Seems a good market is already waiting.

[Will Davis]

Brad,
   Looks like you have a very marketable handle design , It is what we have been needing for people that are experimenting with different handles and hard point designs

Good Luck , I like it

Will

[Brett Buck]

   Looks like you have a very marketable handle design , It is what we have been needing for people that are experimenting with different handles and hard point designs

     Definitely makes a difference!  I was skeptical until I tried it, not any more.

    BTW, 6061 seems like a perfectly good choice. The very originals use soft brass and mine has one the order of 1000 flights. It has peened/flowed a bit around the holes, but no indications of excessive wear. The steel carriers probably need a bit of grease now and then. Hard steel wire on aluminum is probably not a big wear problem.

      Just looking at it, the only thing I don't care for on this one is the rather thin grip, but it's probably easier to build it up with balsa/epoxolite, whatever, than to carve it away.

     Brett

[Bill Little]

Hi Brett,

I *think* it is supposed to be right there with the size of the E-Z Just as far as thickness.

For neutral adjustment, I would use different clips like we do with Ted's handle.

Brett, Have you used a Kaz handle?  And, if so, how would you compare it to a *Fancher* handle?  I have used both, but I would like an opinion from a much better pilot than I am! (seriously!)

[Brett Buck]

I *think* it is supposed to be right there with the size of the E-Z Just as far as thickness.
Brett, Have you used a Kaz handle?  And, if so, how would you compare it to a *Fancher* handle?  I have used both, but I would like an opinion from a much better pilot than I am! (seriously!)

    I have flown with a Kaz handle, but not enough to really tell much about it. One thing I did notice was that the aluminum side plates left grooves in my fingers (top of  index and bottom of pinky). That could be fixed. But it's going to have most of the same issues as any cable handle (although not as much as the Baron-style handles).

    Just as an observation, the heavier the gauge of the cable, the worse it is as far as compliance. I finally figured out exactly why the cable causes springiness - its not compliance in extension, it's that stiff wire has to bend once it leaves the handle and you apply any control. Thicker wire is stiffer in side-side flex, so it can't turn the corner where it exits the handle. This also suggests that a rolling-contact type cable handle (like the one Gene Martine made, or to a lesser extent the old CLC handle) would be a lot better in this respect than a wire-through-hole type. Of course a pure rolling-contact handle also has a greatly exponential response if you use it with a straight bellcrank.

   Seems to me the Walker/Fancher style hard-contact handle (like the one Brad shows above) essentially optimizes the system, and there's not a lot of good reason to mess around with cable handles any more.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

Since we are talking about handles, here's a prototype for a potential new product, available at some future date. It's unassembled, of course, and the grip can be configured any way you want.

   Brett

   

[Ward Van Duzer]

What are the minimum, and maximum line width spacing?

Ward

[Lane Puckett]

I don't see this one on Brodaks web site.  New and only available via phone order or did it just fall by the wayside?

I'll probably call him Monday unless someone knows more before then.

Thanks,
Lane

[Joe Yau]

did it just fall by the wayside?

I have emailed them a while back..  and John from Brodak replied  "it will be available in March 08".  then I emailed him again in March and I got no reply.  so it probably fell by the wayside..... 

[PeteBergstrom]

I saw some of Brad's new handle in the Brodak booth at Toledo so they haven't fallen by the wayside.  John probably just fell behind on his correspondence getting ready for the show.

Pete

[Joe Yau]

Just got a reply from John,  and looks like they will be available very soon.. 

[Leo Mehl]

No, actually it was an adjustable version of a handle I copied from Paul Walker after caddying for him in Shanghai in 1994. The hard point concept coupled to a properly shaped (symetrical up and down) grip seemed immediately better than the then ubiquitoes Baron style sliding cable type I had used for years.  My original "adjustable" prototype was built within a week after returning from China and has never been retired for "serious" stunt work since.

When I sold them their origin was clearly spelled out in the instruction sheet that accompanied each handle kit.  Paul, by the way, appeared to have patterned his handle (non adjustable for overhang) from the Hot Rock.  I quite frankly "designed" the shape of mine by drawing around my last Hot Rock with a pencil.  It was my opinion that the shape of the Hot Rock was pretty much beyond improvement ... still feel that way.  Other than the materials for the grip, Brad's handle is functionally identical to the one that Carl now sells, including multiple sizes.

So, I pretty much copied the whole thing and never pretended I didn't.  It's amazing how much can be accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit for the end product.  This is particularly valuable if the end product is a step ahead of the products from which it was developed. 


Although I'm aware Kaz markets a handle I've never examined one.  Given his skills and knowledge of the event I've no doubt it is an excellent product.  Bottom line, if you want to call your handle a Kaz handle, go for it.
Knowing Kaz, I doubt he'll object even if the two are substantially different in design.

I stopped selling my handle because I got tired of continually receiving complaints from another producer of handles who appeared to feel I shouldn't be selling them; or if I was going to sell them that I shouldn't  suggest there was an advantage to the configuration that made them more or less unique at the time.

That's also the reason I didn't produce a second version almost identical to Brad's new one he's marketing through Brodak.  The guy that did my laser cutting of the steel was prodding me to produce exactly the same sort of steel/plastic combo that Brad ended up with.  A much better consumer product when produced in this way but the constant complaints from the other producer just took the fun out of doing it any more. 

When Carl took over the handle commercially he gave me a half dozen kits as a thank you.  They'll last me for whatever career I have left.

Ted

Ted, You have a lot of career left. I am 76 and still can put in a decent pattern and I am sure that you will when you are 76 or 80. Keep flyin

[FLOYD CARTER]

What with all this noise about hard-point handles, I'm going to try one.  I have one made from a "kit", and don't remember whose kit it is. 

What the world needs is an assortment package of "clips" of various lengths, to get the adjustment just right.  Is there such a thing?

Floyd in OR

[catdaddy]

What with all this noise about hard-point handles, I'm going to try one.  I have one made from a "kit", and don't remember whose kit it is. 

What the world needs is an assortment package of "clips" of various lengths, to get the adjustment just right.  Is there such a thing?

Floyd in OR

Jim Lee makes a cool little gizzy that allows you to make clips in 1/16" increments. I'd contact him through the vendors section of this website.

[Larry Cunningham]

I'm always glad to see new CL handles! It's a good sign for CL, IMO.

Good work, all.

L.

PS - Brett, your prototype looks good. Lou Crane offered a handle "kit" years
ago, which you carved your own grip. Mine has been a good one.

You might consider offering it with a simple preshaped grip for those who don't
have access to a router or wood rasp or Dremel sanding drum or such. The metal
portion looks simple and well designed, very nicely done.

"Ninety percent of the game is half mental." - Yogi Berra

[Randy Powell]

Brett,

The only thing I don't like about this handle design is if you're lines are almost exactly the same lenght, then you have to adjust the thing, sliding the bars in or out. I feel this introduces bias in the handle not really different from the forward cant (though it may be bacward I guess. I feel like the pivot the lines work off of needs to be perpendicular to the ground (square to the bellcrank). If it's slanted (and sliding the adjuster in or out introduces a slant) can, at least in my opinion, introduce a slant in referrence to the bellcrank. Granted, if your lines are pretty much exactly the same lenght, it's a moot point since the adjusting bars will be the same. But if not ...