Source for line clip sets?

[John Rist]

Dose anyone sell line clip sets?  I am looking for a set with a master clip plus a set of clips of varying length to adjust a hard point handle line length.

                                           

[Tim Wescott]

Randy Smith: http://www.aeroproduct.net/.  You want the "hello kitty" line clips.

Or get a line clip bender from Jim Lee, and make up what you need.

[Tim Wescott]

I made my own clip bender and make (.045") music wire clips, never been happier. Mine is double sided for finer adjustment but the bolt was national course. All you need is .050" difference in length. You can do it with a drill press, a 4-40 tap, 3/8" key stock and some 5/32" pins you can make from music wire.

Mine just used a drill, a bolt, music wire and pegs -- what did you need the tap and the keystock for?

[Brent Williams]

Build one like this, or just make life simple and buy it complete from Jim Lee.  

I bought all the stuff to build a couple benders from scratch.  By the time I purchased the big 3/4"-16 bolts and 5/32x1/2 dowel pins and 2-56 drills & taps, ect...I felt dumb and wished that I had just purchased it from Jim in the first place.  I still ended up just buying a clip bender from Jim anyway  (...and all the previously purchased parts are still sitting unused in a baggie under the bench)  

The clip bender instructions and plans are attached.

Contact info for Jim Lee @ Lee Machine: http://stunthanger.com/lee_machine_shop.htm

[Kim Doherty]

Dose anyone sell line clip sets?  I am looking for a set with a master clip plus a set of clips of varying length to adjust a hard point handle line length.

                                           

It sure is a lot easier to set your bellcrank at neutral and make equal length lead outs and then equal length lines. And no, properly made lead outs will not catch on each other.

Kim.

[Steve Helmick]

Making your leadouts unequal is a great way to prevent hooking yer lines up backwards!

It's not difficult to make your lines equal length within 1/4" or less, so I'd suggest making  your clips no more than 3/8" longer than the stock Brodak or Sullivan line clips. Use 3 of the Brodak or Sullivan clips and one "custom" clip.

Put that oddball clip on your handle and leave it there. Put a standard Brodak or Sullivan clip on the other end of your handle and leave it there. Leave one standard clip on one end of your lines and one on one of your leadouts. This allows you to remove your handle from the lines, and your lines from the plane, and get them hooked up properly. The key is to have one handle for each plane you have...    Steve

[john e. holliday]

With clip bending tool you can make enough clips so that when you roll up your lines you leave the up line clip on the plane.   Almost impossible to hook up back wards.

[Fredvon4]

I am purely a hacker sport flyier...BUT my beat up  old arthritic fingers can NOT open any conventional line clip

I rarely use the sets of hello kitty clips for setting neutral...BUT by Lord I am so happy I found them because they are about the only design I can actually hook up without hollering for some young lad to come over and hep me

I have started down the path of one set of lines and handle per plane....vs way back when --I flew with only one handle and one set of lines and the set of lines was some an old cooter (might have been 20 years old) gave me when he suspected (correctly) that I was gonna attempt to fly a 35 sized plane (Enya powered Mongoose) (hell I WAS a KID) with tied together dacron Cox line sets

[Dave_Trible]

If you use a handle with readily adjustable level (cable type) then regular safety line connectors can be had from Melvin at MBS Supply.  There are two or maybe three sizes. 

Dave

[Kim Doherty]

Making your leadouts unequal is a great way to prevent hooking yer lines up backwards!

It's not difficult to make your lines equal length within 1/4" or less, so I'd suggest making  your clips no more than 3/8" longer than the stock Brodak or Sullivan line clips. Use 3 of the Brodak or Sullivan clips and one "custom" clip.

Put that oddball clip on your handle and leave it there. Put a standard Brodak or Sullivan clip on the other end of your handle and leave it there. Leave one standard clip on one end of your lines and one on one of your leadouts. This allows you to remove your handle from the lines, and your lines from the plane, and get them hooked up properly. The key is to have one handle for each plane you have...    Steve

Wouldn't just wiggling your handle tell you all you need to know??
You can easily make lines within .030" of each other. With equal length lines you can change to a new set of lines with no adjustment to your handle.

Kim

[Tim Wescott]

Wouldn't just wiggling your handle tell you all you need to know??

Steve is apparently opposed to that.  There's a surprising number of people who've said that they think I'm a bit tweaked because I always always always wiggle the handle and watch the surfaces right before I signal for release.  There's been at least one contest where I did that, saw the surfaces go the wrong way (long story), and got an attempt instead of a vicious crash.

[Alan Resinger]

I stagger my leadouts and have for the past 25 - 30 years.  I noticed a guy named Walker had his models set up that way so I ask.  He said "you'll know why if you ever have your clips or leadouts ends snag each have other".  Less than 2 weeks later it happened to me.  Luckily they came loose and the model was saved.  Went right home and staggered them.
I am really curious about how skillful you have to be to get the  lines within .030".  Most people can't, I can assure you.   I don't even try.  Different lengths clips are easy to make and there are no downsides.  You have to use clips anyway to attach your lines,

[Kim Doherty]

I stagger my leadouts and have for the past 25 - 30 years.  I noticed a guy named Walker had his models set up that way so I ask.  He said "you'll know why if you ever have your clips or leadouts ends snag each have other".  Less than 2 weeks later it happened to me.  Luckily they came loose and the model was saved.  Went right home and staggered them.
I am really curious about how skillful you have to be to get the  lines within .030".  Most people can't, I can assure you.   I don't even try.  Different lengths clips are easy to make and there are no downsides.  You have to use clips anyway to attach your lines,

Alan,
I too stagger... to think that two lines half an inch apart, separated by the slider just a couple of inches behind and under some not inconsiderable force with no magic external force acting upon them can come in contact with each other. I will see your Paul Walker and raise you two Chinese (Zhang Xiang Dong, Han Xin Ping) punters who do it my way. Ok, using the Queen's English, I do it their way and have since 1990 with no ill effect.
As to skill level I can assure you I could even explain it to a senior citizen. You say you would not even try. Pity. A shame to see you giving up on life's challenges so soon. It is quite simple. :-)

Kim

[Steve Helmick]

Wouldn't just wiggling your handle tell you all you need to know?? <edit>

Kim

Well, I've never tried to fly with my lines hooked up backwards, but a lot of other folks have, and some seem to have made a habit of it. Few have saved their planes. I can name names, but don't want to.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a fixture to use for both leadout and line offsets. A 12" piece of pine with a couple of  finishing nails, maybe? Use the same fixture for all your planes and all your lines, comprende?  Steve

[Brett Buck]

It sure is a lot easier to set your bellcrank at neutral and make equal length lead outs and then equal length lines. And no, properly made lead outs will not catch on each other.

   But rather impractical. I frequently adjust my neutral a few thousandths to 10s of thousandths just to suit my feel. I *can* fly with it way off (like 1/4" at the ARF-Off, after the adjustment slipped), but a tiny adjustment just makes some things easier. This on an airplane I have been flying for 11+ years.

     Brett

[Jim Roselle]

At one time there was a video on here that showed how to use the Jim Lee clip bender. Anyone know where that is?

Jim

[Kim Doherty]

   But rather impractical. I frequently adjust my neutral a few thousandths to 10s of thousandths just to suit my feel. I *can* fly with it way off (like 1/4" at the ARF-Off, after the adjustment slipped), but a tiny adjustment just makes some things easier. This on an airplane I have been flying for 11+ years.

     Brett

Brett,

Line length and leadout setup have nothing to do with handle adjustment. I can adjust my handle in tenths of thousandths if necessary or your quarter of an inch. I agree that even a couple of thou can make a difference. So I use the same handle used by most if not all Chinese team members. I am sure you will find fault with this as well so let me simply state that the Chinese have won more W/C's since 1988 than the USA. That would also be SEVEN (7) more than you have won. (there's still time) ( note: I did not BOLD the last reference as I felt it was too personal) I guess they have not discovered the magic of the "IMPACT" 

(pity about that useless W/C's winning Yatsenko Shark flown by --- oh yah! an AMERICAN!!! )

Your opinion is always considered and appreciated. (seriously) - really - oh come on Brett, lighten up!!

Kim.

[Brett Buck]

So I use the same handle used by most if not all Chinese team members. I am sure you will find fault with this as well so let me simply state that the Chinese have won more W/C's since 1988 than the USA. That would also be SEVEN (7) more than you have won. (there's still time) ( note: I did not BOLD the last reference as I felt it was too personal) I guess they have not discovered the magic of the "IMPACT" 

(pity about that useless W/C's winning Yatsenko Shark flown by --- oh yah! an AMERICAN!!! )

Your opinion is always considered and appreciated. (seriously) - really - oh come on Brett, lighten up!!

Kim.

   Me lighten up? *I* am not the one that emitted the above meltdown.  If I want to start really ragging on you, you will know it, don't worry. In fact, I have been pretty supportive of your efforts in recent years, despite your strange obsession with the Chinese stunt team.

      Please come to the NATs, you are always welcome. I will make sure that Bruce Perry doesn't release his "kamikaze birds".
     Brett

[Brent Williams]

At one time there was a video on here that showed how to use the Jim Lee clip bender. Anyone know where that is?

Jim

I couldn't find a movie, so I made up this animation using the info from Derek Moran's pdf.  It's almost as good as a movie, right?

[Steve Helmick]

Steve is apparently opposed to that.  There's a surprising number of people who've said that they think I'm a bit tweaked because I always always always wiggle the handle and watch the surfaces right before I signal for release.  There's been at least one contest where I did that, saw the surfaces go the wrong way (long story), and got an attempt instead of a vicious crash.

I do the "handle wiggle" also, but apparently Tim hasn't noticed. I've seen guys do the "handle wiggle" without paying one iota of attention to which direction the handle/elevators were going, and still crash, so what's the point?
  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

I couldn't find a movie, so I made up this animation using the info from Derek Moran's pdf.  It's almost as good as a movie, right?

Never seeing the original article, I've wondered how in heck people got the thing to make such nice clips -- I've just used it out of my hand.  So, yesterday, I made a mod to mine (I made the slot on day 1, but only just now added the screw to the side of the nut).  The screw is an 8-32 that's been machined to about 0.12" to fit into a 1/8" slot.

[Brent Williams]

Tim, I have attached a PDF of the complete instructions from the article and the plans for the clip bender. 

[Tim Wescott]

Tim, I have attached a PDF of the complete instructions from the article and the plans for the clip bender. 

With the pictured mod, I can make perfect clips without a vise.  I just keep a few clips and make them as needed at the field.

[John Rist]

I couldn't find a movie, so I made up this animation using the info from Derek Moran's pdf.  It's almost as good as a movie, right?

Is this the McMaster-Car wire you talk about in your almost video?

https://www.mcmaster.com/#6517k27/=17hkz0k

[Tim Wescott]

I know the official "Derick" way is to use stainless, but I've been using music wire in mine since day 1 with no signs of corrosion.

Of course, I fly slime.  If you fly electric you may need to spritz the inside of your flight box with a good layer of castor to get the same effect.

[Brent Williams]

Is this the McMaster-Car wire you talk about in your almost video?

mcmaster 6517k27/=17hkz0k

Negative.  

You want to buy Hard "Spring-Back wire" (spring temper), not "bend and stay" wire.  Anything in the .047", .049", .051" range should be fine.

.051 Hard Stainless Spring Back Wire -  #: 8908K56 https://www.mcmaster.com/#8908k56/=17hl5ok


Music wire seems to works good also. 

[Randy Cuberly]

I'm no a WC or a Nats champ, just a middle of the pack expert, however I've been flying control line for 65 years.  I have never used Staggered line clips and have never had a problem with lines snagging each other.  I know I'm not alone.
I do now use shrink tubing over the line ends at the airplane even though for 50+years I did not.  I do definitely use one adjustable line clip on the handle and agree totally with Brett that I can tell the difference of a handle setting within minute amounts...it definitely makes a difference.

I tend to fly very responsive airplanes with the CG as far back as possible while still being able to fly a solid straight level lap.  The handle setting makes a big difference for me under those conditions.

I just cannot imagine and never have even seen lines snag at the line clips.

As for hooking up a handle backwards I also cannot imagine doing that even though I'v seen several people that I know are very experienced fliers do it.

Use a set of lines and handle for each airplane and always leave one clip on the airplane and one on the lines and it cannot happen.  Lines, handles, and line clips are much cheaper than airplanes! 

Always strive to eliminate RISK!  It works.  Just Common Sense!

Randy Cuberly

[John Rist]

I'm no a WC or a Nats champ, just a middle of the pack expert, however I've been flying control line for 65 years.  I have never used Staggered line clips and have never had a problem with lines snagging each other.  I know I'm not alone.
I do now use shrink tubing over the line ends at the airplane even though for 50+years I did not.  I do definitely use one adjustable line clip on the handle and agree totally with Brett that I can tell the difference of a handle setting within minute amounts...it definitely makes a difference.

I tend to fly very responsive airplanes with the CG as far back as possible while still being able to fly a solid straight level lap.  The handle setting makes a big difference for me under those conditions.

I just cannot imagine and never have even seen lines snag at the line clips.

As for hooking up a handle backwards I also cannot imagine doing that even though I'v seen several people that I know are very experienced fliers do it.

Use a set of lines and handle for each airplane and always leave one clip on the airplane and one on the lines and it cannot happen.  Lines, handles, and line clips are much cheaper than airplanes! 

Always strive to eliminate RISK!  It works.  Just Common Sense!

Randy Cuberly

I also use shrink tubing on all of my lines and lead outs.  However I color coad them.  Red for up and black for down.  Have never hooked up backwards. 

[john e. holliday]

As I am a miser using one set of lines for several planes is why the up line clip stays with the plane.  I have the clip making machine I got from the late and great Carl Shoupe. I do need to stock up on wire.   The so called music wire I use is corroded but so far(knock on wood) has not failed pull tests or excursions across the circle.

[John Rist]

As I am a miser using one set of lines for several planes is why the up line clip stays with the plane.  I have the clip making machine I got from the late and great Carl Shoupe. I do need to stock up on wire.   The so called music wire I use is corroded but so far(knock on wood) has not failed pull tests or excursions across the circle.

See reply #27 above for wire.

[James Lee]

I stock the .051 hard stainless that Derek specified.
Jim Lee
Lee Machine Shop

[Steve Helmick]

As I've posted in previous threads, DO NOT waste wire making clips that are more than +.250". Anybody can make their lines close enough that +.250" is plenty of clips to select from.

I believe the wire I have always used (the first batch came from Jim Lee, but a subsequent batch came from McMaster-Carr) is .055" stainless.

A question I'd like to have answered is how you cut the wire off when the bending has been done? I use a "danger disc", but am willing to look at alternative methods. I have an (expensive) fish hook cutter with a carbide cutting edge that I may give a try...it'll chop up the finest high dollar fish hooks (Owner brand) without a complaint.  Steve

[john e. holliday]

I stock the .051 hard stainless that Derek specified.
Jim Lee
Lee Machine Shop

Will try to remember. 

[Randy Cuberly]

I also use shrink tubing on all of my lines and lead outs.  However I color coad them.  Red for up and black for down.  Have never hooked up backwards. 

Yeah, a good friend of mine color codes his lines...in the heat of competition He's hooked his lines up backwards twice and crashed.  I don't think that is foolproof...uhhh lets see was it red up and blue down or was it.....

Randy Cuberly

[Tim Wescott]

Yeah, a good friend of mine color codes his lines...in the heat of competition He's hooked his lines up backwards twice and crashed.  I don't think that is foolproof...uhhh lets see was it red up and blue down or was it.....

Randy Cuberly

Anyone who's ever designed something foolproof knows that they just go and invent better fools to break it.

I always to the preflight wiggle -- but, as Steve (I think) mentioned, that's not foolproof if you forget to look when you wiggle.

[John Rist]

Yeah, a good friend of mine color codes his lines...in the heat of competition He's hooked his lines up backwards twice and crashed.  I don't think that is foolproof...uhhh lets see was it red up and blue down or was it.....

Randy Cuberly

The secret is to color code everything!  Lines, handle and airplane.  Then you hook red to red and black to black.  Even at age 77 with brain farts I can manage that much.   

[Steve Helmick]

Color coding is NOT the answer! I know several people who color coded their leadouts and lines, yet they still got it wrong, and crashed. The real solution is to pay attention, and pay attention every time.

I admit, I came close once, a year or two ago. I look at the handle and look at the control surfaces on the airplane. Where I almost screwed up was that I looked at the flap...and not the elevator. When the flap goes the same way as the handle, you are in for a challenge to your quick-wit and piloting skills. I was lucky and checked twice. Multiple checks don't cost as much as not checking enough.  Steve

[dave siegler]

Any tips to building this without a reamer?  I do have numbered drill bits but no reamers.

I would buy a cheap set if I could.

a .156 reamer is about $30.   Is that close enough to 4mm? Small sets of HSS metric ones are cheap.

[Kim Doherty]

Color coding is NOT the answer! I know several people who color coded their leadouts and lines, yet they still got it wrong, and crashed. The real solution is to pay attention, and pay attention every time.

Steve

Steve has this right. All you are proving by hooking red to red and black to black is that you are not color blind. The direction the elevator will move is a wholly different matter. Let me tell you a story....

A couple of months ago a friend of mine received a (new to him) Yatsenko Shark. I volunteered to help him set the model up and deal with the Igor Boost system. He gave me the lines to make up and I noticed he had included some Red and Black shrink for the line ends. I made up the lines and installed the shrink on the ends. I should also say that I have some familiarity with these models and have seen them and handled them up close since they first appeared on the market. As a full size pilot and instructor who flies aircraft that are rigged and de-rigged on a regular basis I always do a positive control check and a freedom of control check ensuring that all control surfaces move in the intended direction prior to flight.

So I hooked up the UP line (RED) to the right leadout and the down to the left. I then did a positive control check. - check - Next I went the handle and did the freedom of movement check. - Wiggle the handle - OOOOOp's !!! - The elevator moved down when I gave it up ! Back to the model and move the leadouts, The UP line is in front. (My Bad) I switched the clips and away we went. Despite having assembled, handled and launched these models at multiple W/C's I was blissfully unaware that the UP line was in front.

The moral of the story is that this is all that ever should happen if something is not hooked up right.  No fuss, no muss, no mess, no bother. We do these checks for a reason.

Only by doing a positive control check and a freedom of movement check on the controls can you say that you are ready to fly.

Kim.

[John Rist]

Color coding is NOT the answer! I know several people who color coded their leadouts and lines, yet they still got it wrong, and crashed. The real solution is to pay attention, and pay attention every time.

I admit, I came close once, a year or two ago. I look at the handle and look at the control surfaces on the airplane. Where I almost screwed up was that I looked at the flap...and not the elevator. When the flap goes the same way as the handle, you are in for a challenge to your quick-wit and piloting skills. I was lucky and checked twice. Multiple checks don't cost as much as not checking enough.  Steve

I never said that I didn't check everything - I even check it twice before I fly.  All I am saying that it save a lot of steps if you get it right the first time.  Color coding does that for me.  Mother always said what you lack in smarts you make up with shoe leather.   

[Steve Helmick]

As I've posted before, I remove the handle from the lines, but leave both clips on the handle. One of those clips is the odd-ball homemade clip, and the other is a stock Sullivan (or Brodak) clip. The clips at the plane end are also stock Sullivan (or Brodak) clips. I leave one of the clips attached to one leadout , and one attached to the other line.

While some like to leave the handle attached to the lines, that takes a lot more space in your field box, and I think it also puts some extra bending on the lines and may cause problems eventually. Plus, they drag their fancy handle across the pavement while spooling the lines out.

There is another advantage to removing the handle...between rounds, I remove the handle, wind the lines up to the plane, but leave them attached to the plane. When I hook the handle up, I just grab one of the lines, pull on it, and see is it's the UP or DOWN line. I hook up the UP line first, DOWN line second, and check for the direction the ELEVATOR goes. That one near-miss taught me to be darned sure I wasn't looking at the flap. Plus, I don't drag my shabby handle across the pavement while spooling the lines out!

I keep two sets of lines and matching handle in a gallon Ziploc Freezer bag. The spare set of lines is the one of the two that is in a smaller bag. The gallon bag is labeled for that plane. I gotta admit that if you can't see well enough to see which way your elevators go, this system isn't for you. I can't tell if the elevator is very close to neutral, but I can still tell that it's up or down. I have more stock & custom clips in a small container in the box. If I had enough planes to fly that I needed more lines, I might figure a way to clip the bag of lines/handle to each plane...maybe. I would never use the same lines/handle for more than one plane. 

Also...without looking up the price that Jim Lee charges for the clip bender set...just buy one. Cheaper than buying reamers and taps, plus the parts in small numbers. I suspect you could get away with using split pins or roll pins instead of dowel pins. Yeah, they're all different. And don't forget the potential for breaking the drills or tap and spoiling the purchased parts. What you might consider instead, is getting somebody in your area, group, to share the clip bender, or ask somebody you know from SH or SSW online to make clips for you. 

ou might also brainstorm another way to make a bender. My buddy Keith Varley made one from a cheap drill press vise. Drilled holes for the pins on opposite jaws, and adjusted the clip length with an assortment of 1/8", 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" ply shims.    Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Cheaper than buying reamers and taps, plus the parts in small numbers.

Much to my astonishment, the expected slightly oversized from nominal hole that I got from just drilling the holes was matched by the even more oversized from nominal music wire, making for a good tight press fit without reamers or precision-ground pins or anything.

But if that hadn't have been a lucky coincidence, I had the silver solder and flux standing by.

[John Rist]

Wow! to much information.  All I wanted to know if some one sell pre-made clips.  Looks like Kitty clips are available.  However it looks like for the price of a set of clips I will break down and buy a Jim Lee bender and some wire from McMaster-Carr.  Not that expensive and will make clips for the rest of my life. 

On the subject of reversed lines - I have never had the privilege of trying to fly with reversed line hookup.  However it seems to me the plane would not get off of the ground, especially in grass.  Most likely just noise over and break the prop.  But of course Murphy's law says it will be much worse than that.   

PS I will continue to color code my lines and check for up elevator before every flight, (even if color coding, according to some, is not the answer)