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Author Topic: Someone has some explaining to do!  (Read 13280 times)

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Someone has some explaining to do!
« on: November 08, 2012, 12:38:01 PM »
Not Model Aviation but this on really makes one think about General Aviation incidents.
No excuse whatsoever.

  Bob Z.

  http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/RAW-VIDEO-Plane-hits-car-at-northwest-regional-airport-177200391.html

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 01:10:48 PM »
This is the fault of the airport, unless they have a large sign on the roadway warning motorists of a runway.  I can't imagine anyone authorizing a road right at the approach end of a runway!

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 02:02:49 PM »
I can't think of an airport that doesn't have a road across at least one end, with tall trees and maybe a hill, at one or the other ends. I thought the old Bellevue, WA airport was especially nasty, with the usual departure crossing over at least 4 lanes of I-90, and a frontage road (all with appropriate fences) and skirting Cougar Mountain. A power failure on takeoff would put you right in the path of a dozen 18-wheelers. The other end was guarded by 100' Firs and Cedars, except for a scenic little lake in the middle. I flew in and out of there several times, and I'm almost glad it's gone. Some fool builds an airport out in the stix and sure as heck, people will build all around it and make it unsafe!  n~ Steve

PS: If the dipchit in the Cessna had been paying attention, he would have aborted the landing.
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 03:15:47 PM »
If he hadn't hit the car he still would just barely have made the runway.  Didn't clear the fence by much either.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 03:18:34 PM »
On the TV news they said the road had big signs warning cars to yield to approaching aircraft. Could have been allot worse than it was.

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2012, 03:19:40 PM »
The story when I first read it was that the car ran a stop sign and then was hit.  In the video, it looks like the car slowed down and almost stopped when it got hit.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2012, 04:25:28 PM »
  The pilot couldn't see him. Sitting the cabin, he can't see too  much over the nose and to the right of the airplane, and he was solo, so no one in the cockpit to help him sight out that side of the airplane. The driver was completely at fault in my opinion. He had to know where he was, at the end of an active runway at an airport. The plane was on HIS side of the car. It looked like he did run the stop sign and was probably looking for his cell phone or the french fry he dropped. If he is following normal common sense, and was aware of his surroundings like a good driver should be, the collision doesn't happen. Even if he was distracted it was his fault as I see it.
   I like the audio where the female occupant of the car says, "We didn't pull out in front of an airplane!" I guess her mind was someplace else!
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 06:55:23 PM »
Why is the wife filming this approach?

There's more going on here than one would think, but in the short:

There's a list of pilot errors. We can start with an easy one, no flaps!

My guess is the pilot has really low time.

The wind sock is down, so if another runway was available he could have chosen it. But, they were filming.

His approach, you don't have to land "on the numbers." With that road where it is, and there's nothing wrong with that BYW, a more sensible approach would have been better, and better or more experienced pilots would normally land further down that particular runway.

Yes, the pilot chose that runway but should have landed further down. Using flaps would have allowed for a steaper approach angel and would have eliminated contact with any moving vehicles or obsticals. This simple thing alone would have made his approach much easier and safer.

What's the roll out on that airplane? Imagine landing on the numbers at a major airport? Take you all day to taxi to the ramp!
 
Besides, this pilot knows that airport and runway and should know better. The pilot made bad choices, a bunch of them.

Charles



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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 07:04:10 PM »
I disagree completely about the pilot.  He may have been touch and goes.  If there is a stop sign there for ground vehicles,  they should stop and look.  Yes it looks like the pilot is coming up short, but look how low he is approaching the ruway.  Would have been okay if occupant of the car was more alert.
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Offline GonzoBonzo

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 07:25:05 PM »
Totally pilot error.  Goggle maps shows a displaced threshold of 500 ft from the road.  Way too low!
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 07:49:17 PM »
Granted, the Cessna appears to be too low on Final.

That said, the driver of the car is equally at fault for not checking for approaching traffic.

Personal opinion: pilot AND driver are candidates for a Darwin award.
 
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Offline peabody

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 07:51:20 PM »
It's clearly a defective aeroplane.

Offline George

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 08:10:04 PM »
It's George Bush's fault.

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Offline GonzoBonzo

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 08:38:01 PM »
   It was his first solo landing. He was on a long, low approach but that is probably what he was tought for that airport. Probably the ONLY airport he ever landed at. His wife was shooting the video to commerorate the moment, something we all have done at some point. I would guess he only had about 9 or ten hours at that point, or whatever is average for a student. It's obvious that it's a small, rural airport or there wouldn't be any roads at the end of the runway,  no fence either and it was probably the ONLY runway. I see a few degrees of flaps deployed. Even at the low approach, he was STILL too high to have had any way to see the car given his altitude, attitude of the airplane and the rapid approach of the car to point of impact. I doubt that it's 500 ft from the road to the runway because even after the impact he still landed on the pavement and he wasn't exactly flying anymore after impact. I would think that an airplane that was landing would have right of way in this instance, if there is such a thing. I'm bettin' that the driver of the car or his insurance company is fixing a Cessna. y1
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Offline GonzoBonzo

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2012, 09:06:09 PM »
Quote
I doubt that it's 500 ft from the road to the runway

Hi Dan,

Never said it was.  It has a "displaced threshold", or line that pilots are required to land after.  Maybe added after the road.

Quote
He was on a long, low approach but that is probably what he was tought for that airport

I don't know a quicker way to kill a new pilot.  I'd steer clear of that school!


Google maps street level on that road shows no signs, or stop signs.   I think the pilots rental insurance just went through the roof.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 10:14:34 PM by GonzoBonzo »
Gonzo

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2012, 11:08:37 PM »
Why is the wife filming this approach?

There's more going on here than one would think, but in the short:

There's a list of pilot errors. We can start with an easy one, no flaps!

My guess is the pilot has really low time.

The wind sock is down, so if another runway was available he could have chosen it. But, they were filming.

His approach, you don't have to land "on the numbers." With that road where it is, and there's nothing wrong with that BYW, a more sensible approach would have been better, and better or more experienced pilots would normally land further down that particular runway.

Yes, the pilot chose that runway but should have landed further down. Using flaps would have allowed for a steaper approach angel and would have eliminated contact with any moving vehicles or obsticals. This simple thing alone would have made his approach much easier and safer.

What's the roll out on that airplane? Imagine landing on the numbers at a major airport? Take you all day to taxi to the ramp!
 
Besides, this pilot knows that airport and runway and should know better. The pilot made bad choices, a bunch of them.

Charles





Charles,

What is improper about a zero flap landing in a Cessna 172?

How long was the runway?

Where was the appropriate touchdown zone on a runway of that length given the selected (and not inappropriate) landing flap selection?

Where would the pilot's attention (visually, in particular) be focused on short final?

Was the driver not aware that he was driving across the approach end of the runway at an airport?

Who was engaged in the more demanding task which might have narrowed his/her focus?

Does not, from time to time, "stuff" happen?

Ted

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 12:23:39 AM »
    I've read some other accounts of the incident and witnesses say that the black SUV did not stop sign painted on the road. At the very beginning of the video, there is a wide angle shot that shows another road that parallels the runway and the road that crosses the end of the runway, and there is no sign of the black SUV at all, but you can clearly see the airplane that is maybe a quarter mile out. That is one problem with CSI-ing this thing is camera angles distort our depth perception. The Cessna looks to be making a normal approach, and keep in mind that this is a student pilot, on his first solo landing, heart pounding and sweaty palms and all. He is not trying to side slip a Corsair onto the deck of a pitching aircraft carrier in the Pacific. He's just trying land safely and in one piece. He has no real experience to draw from. He is still learning how to fly and operate the craft he is in. He is running through his mind the last five or six approaches his CFI had him fly, probably that very day. The previous articles I read on the incident stated that this was his first solo landing. So he's making his approach, and from what can be seen in the video it looks pretty normal. Maybe a little long and low, but for a student pilot, maybe not. Nothing really wrong or illegal about it. Watch the video and even though the wind sock is hanging down, the airplane settles just a bit, and he make a correction. Nothing that in his judgement at the time, would make him want to put the power back up and go around. In that last 50 yards or so of the approach, I think he can't see anything on the road to his right because of the attitude of the airplane (nose up slightly) his altitude, his position in the left seat of the cockpit, and the length of the nose of the airplane. Then, all of a sudden, a black SUV that wasn't there 5 or 6 seconds ago, suddenly pulls into his glide path.  If he could have seen it at all, I think you would have seen him pull up sharply, stall the airplane, and had a worse crash. I think it would have been a natural reaction given his skill level at the time, and having no experience to draw from he probably would have not done anything correctly, because he just wasn't that far along in his training. The operator of the SUV on the other hand, has been operating motor vehicles for a considerably longer period of time, had a MUCH clearer field of vision, a clear view of the approach to the runway that was on his side of his vehicle, several signs and such warning him of his close proximity to an active runway including one for him to stop, and an extra set of eyes and another brain to help him evaluate his situation, and yet his inattentive operation of his vehicle still puts him in the glide path of the oncoming airplane, who could not see him. If the airplane doesn't hit that little bit of dead air and dropped that few feet, the collision doesn't happen. But the pilot had no control of the forces of nature. He operated the craft to the best of his ability at the time. The driver of the SUV however ignored several warnings, and ran through a marked  stop sign according to witnesses, and those careless actions put him in the path of the airplane. What were he and his wife doing that BOTH of them could not get the slightest hint that they were about to drive into deep do do? Ain't no way that this incident is the student pilots fault. If the driver of the SUV at least slows down for the stop sign and is paying attention at all, this incident doesn't happen and this discussion would probably be another BOM argument!!
   I'm just sayin'
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Offline GonzoBonzo

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2012, 02:04:49 AM »
I digress Dan.  I went and looked at Google street level again, and you can make out the word stop in a washed out white in the middle of the road.  To be honest though, I don't think it would hold water in a court of law, which I think this will probably end up.   It's very hard to make out, and if a soccer mom did notice it, she wouldn't have a clue where to look.
This stuffs natural to us plane nuts, but to the general public, they haven't a clue. 

Gonzo




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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2012, 05:31:24 AM »
You do not pitch the nose up on decent for a landing, the nose is always down. You start your "flare" to slow the aircraft, this rotates the aircraft and pitches the nose up. Correctly done at landing, the airspeed gets lowered where the airplane is barely flying before touchdown. I.e. "stalled landing."

Flaps! Why beat the aircraft up with a landing without flaps? And you do because the landing speed is greater. The idea is to slow the aircraft down and make the final approach at the correct V speed for that aircraft with flaps lowered.

Makes for a slower landing and shorter roll out. Slow speed should = more gentle landings. Slower approach, allows for more time/less distance for important decision making on final. All 101 stuff. On final be prepaired to abort at any time. That's how I was taught, back in the mid 60's, when I got my ticket, in a Luscombe.

Gee, as I said. The pilot did have low time, really low time. So low actually the instructors abilities should be questioned. Also, as I said, the pilot made many judgement and piloting mistakes. There's no point in listing them.

That filming thing. This is ego. There's no place for egos with GA. Students or veteran pilots alike, another thing I learned day one, first lesson. My instructor, for my private pilots license, was a woman.

There was this "pilot?" who took a friend on a plane ride for her birthday. A low time pilot. The news media covered the incident. They reported, that an onlooker mentioned, the pilot said he was going to "give her the ride of her life." They both died in the crash.

In my 40 years of participating in GA, as a pilot and commercial pilot, I've seen guys/individuals, I don't refer to them as pilots because they are not, who display egos. A serious personality flaw for a good conscientious pilot.
A personality flaw period!  LL~

What we see here with this incident, is an individual with an ego issue. These guys never become really good proficient pilots. These are the ones you read about.

And don't think the FAA doesn't take into account personalities when they do an investigation. Sometimes that's the "dead" giveaway.

 Charles

40 years of GA and I've walked away from every landing!   ;D
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Offline roger gebhart

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2012, 06:58:10 AM »
Guys Many airports have a road near the end of a runway, most are not inside the fence. In  our case it is closer than what this would appear.  Looks like an unfortunate accident that either driver or pilot could have easily avoided. If in fact it was a solo flight inexperience was a factor I'm sure. I would also think any training done on this field covered this very scenario. Unfortunate for both but amazing no one was seriously hurt

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2012, 08:22:38 AM »
Someone mentioned to low and long approach.   You should have been at the air shows we used to have at Richards-Gebaur Air Force Base.  Especially when planes were coming in for setting up.   You could almost name the  branch of service and the country from the way the planes approached the main runway.   The Air Force pilots were always doing long low approaches, I think becase of the open country side. Navy pilots would come over the end of the runway and drop.  No wonder they built the planes with strong landing gear.  One plane that comes to  mind was a high wing transport plane.  They would come at the runway too high and dive at the runway and level off.  When he finally got it on the ground, we thought he was going to plant the nose wheel into the pavement before he leveled off.   We got to talk to the flight crew of the plane and asked him what the problem was with his landing.  His response was, there are no trees.  They were used to flying in and out of Canadian fields with tall trees all around.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2012, 08:53:57 AM »
There's more to this unfortunate incident:

The road in question is a private road that is not on airport property. It is owned by another party.

In a subsequent interview, the SUV driver said that he and his wife dine at the airport restaurant on a regular basis and was aware of the proper procedures. The 22 page FAA Guide To Ground Vehicle Operations states that the driver of ground vehicle traffic operating on and near airports must maintain a very high degree of situational awareness. This is especially true for non-towered airports. The recommendation is to STOP, LOOK, and LISTEN. It is also recommended that the vehicle driver lower the driver's side window to help hear for approaching traffic. The guide also states that ground vehicles have the lowest right-of-way privilege. From what I can see, the SUV driver was just too complacent.

The airport representative indicated that the airport and the landowner would work out a solution.

FAA 14CFR Part 91 states that landing aircraft have right-of way over other aircraft with only very limited exception. Added to that, when I was taking my flight instruction it was made very clear that ground vehicle traffic must yield to aircraft at all times.
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Offline Wade Bognuda

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2012, 09:02:36 AM »
Yep, the A/C has the right-of-way. Crucifying this student pilot is not something a "real" aviator would do. It's real easy to armchair aviate somebody. Especially if they are dead.

Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2012, 09:19:30 AM »
An interesting sidebar ~

In the November issue of FLYING, Robert Goyer's Going Direct column discussed Runway Disaster Prevention. While most of the talk was about airplane-to-airplane incidents, the overriding theme stressed how potentially dangerous things are for airplanes near to and on the ground. It's a situation that the FAA and other involved parties are working diligently to correct.

In this case the airport representative hit the mark when he said that it was no longer enough to rely on peoples good judgement. Some physical change was needed to reduce or eliminate the risk.

Plus, this particular airport has had a rash of bad news, all of which was random and unrelated. A few weeks ago a Little Toot suffered an engine failure on lift-off and ran through that white fence on the other side of the road. The plane flipped but the pilot got out with only aches and pains. Two other planes recently crashed, with loss of life, after departing the airport.
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Offline Wayne J. Buran

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2012, 09:29:04 AM »
"Stop, Look and Listen" is no longer the rule as most people in this country don't feel responsible for ther own actions. Some lawyer will sign these people up and the airport will be turned into a mall. Look at the train situation, now it's better to dig under the railroad which is surely not cost effective.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2012, 09:48:30 AM »
Just because there's a "Stop, Look and Listen," for traffic doesn't mean the FAA will forgive this low time pilot for his "many" errors. And there are plenty.

Unfortunately, one of the ways of learning is from the errors made by other pilots.

And Wade is right, pilots don't crucify other nitwit pilots, we have a governing force that does that, it's called he FAA. Thank goodness.

Be nice if everybody was a pilot of actual aircraft.

Some things would just be more easily understood.

Charles 
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2012, 03:29:32 PM »
And Wade is right, pilots don't crucify other nitwit pilots, we have a governing force that does that, it's called he FAA. Thank goodness.

   Well, Charles, that is exactly what you are doing by calling him a nitwit. Please give us the benefit of all your years of experience and list the "many" errors he made. And don't assume anything, like he didn't have flaps deployed when you don't know that for sure. I think I can see them deployed early on in the video when camera angle and depth of field permited it. What are the other "many" this new pilot on his first solo landing made?
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Offline roger gebhart

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2012, 04:04:19 PM »
what say we let this go. We weren't there and speculation is the best we can do. A mistake was made and those involved will sort it out. As pilots it is our job to learn from what happens around us. (model pilots or otherwise) I.m speaking from something close to 25k hrs. I learn every day and this is just another sad event to learn from.

Offline don Burke

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2012, 06:00:27 PM »
" ..No wonder they built the planes with strong landing gear...." 
A side note, slightly off topic.  Because of the typical carrier landing, Navy LG designs have to survive a 32 foot static drop test, Air Force requires only 14 feet.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 06:33:54 PM »
And Wade is right, pilots don't crucify other nitwit pilots, we have a governing force that does that, it's called he FAA. Thank goodness.Well, Charles, that is exactly what you are doing by calling him a nitwit. Please give us the benefit of all your years of experience and list the "many" errors he made. And don't assume anything, like he didn't have flaps deployed when you don't know that for sure. I think I can see them deployed early on in the video when camera angle and depth of field permited it. What are the other "many" this new pilot on his first solo landing made? Dan McEntee

Dan,

I believe you miss quoted me. I never called the operator of that aircraft in the video a nitwit.

I also made good and accurate statements about that incident. As far as listing all his pilot errors or his poor judgments, school is over.

I have more important things to do on "The LOSER."

I'm actually doing a bit with the flaps. I have a few new photos of the wing and I think I'll post them.

Charles
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Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2012, 07:37:58 PM »
Charles, I am not a reflexive 'Avaiojet-basher', as you know, but in this case I believe you are quite wrong about a number of things.  There is probably no point in me going into details, since people like Ted and Dan have already done so better than I could, to no avail - although I have to add that the nose is not 'always down' on approach to landing.  I have flown aircraft where the nose is 5 degrees up all the way down final.   If you do not understand this then you shouldn't be quite so confident in attacking the pilot.  The same goes for some of your other observations (and have you seriously never practised a flapless approach and landing in 40 years?).

What I would say is that if nothing else, 40 years of involvement in aviation should have taught you the perils of leaping to condemnation in incidents where you don't have all the facts.  Perhaps we should follow Roger's advice, let it rest, and read the FAA report when it finally comes out.

Steve

PS  I wish someone had filmed my first solo, just because it would be a nice thing to have - like a video of your wedding or your kids' first steps. I can't see where ego comes into it.

Offline Aaron Little

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2012, 07:42:01 PM »
Sadly it was an incident such as this that took the great Randy Rhodes...
(Although there were drugs, alcohol and rock and roll involved in that one)

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 08:39:41 PM »
quote from Steve

PS  I wish someone had filmed my first solo, just because it would be a nice thing to have - like a video of your wedding or your kids' first steps. I can't see where ego comes into it.
[/quote]

I'm with you, Steve.  I do still have my shirt tail taped up in my model shop, but a video would be nice.  There is no ego involved in filming such a landmark event in someone's life.  How many of us get to solo?  As a former CFI, I always encouraged my students to record their first solo.  Back off, Charles, you're out of line here.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

steven yampolsky

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 10:41:05 PM »
What is improper about a zero flap landing in a Cessna 172?

Two things:
1) 172 does needs a very shallow approach if landing without flaps. A student pilot on his first solo flight would not have been able to cope with the unusually high nose attitude required to land.
2) 172 stalls at 35kt with flaps and 45 without. The stall horn starts to blare around 50-55. Recommended speed on short final is 65. I wonder if the guy got a little slow and got distracted by a stall horn.

How long was the runway?

Where was the appropriate touchdown zone on a runway of that length given the selected (and not inappropriate) landing flap selection?

Generous 3500ft although it does have a 400 foot displaced threshold. This actually brings up another question: why was he aiming to land so close to the edge of runway if the touch down zone was 400 further down?


Where would the pilot's attention (visually, in particular) be focused on short final?

I suspect the unusually high AOA due to zero flaps on final might have caused pilot's view partially obstructed by the panel.


The first time I saw it something caught my eye but I wasn't sure what it was. I kept watching the the video over and over. Then I saw a version of the video in slow motion. I think I saw an airplane stall into the SUV. Hear me out:

The plane was landing without flaps. The pilot setup a regular nose down attitude when landing with full flaps. This means the plane was descending at higher rate. the pilot failed to adjust the power(the engine sound did not change throughout the video) and quickly got below the glide slope. The plane got was getting low and the pilot tried to keep the nose up by pulling on the yoke. The plane slowed down below recommended approach speed, the stall horn started blaring, scaring the pilot. He saw the land approach fast,  pulled even more on the yoke resulting in a stall.
If you look at the video in slow mo, the plane drops the nose rather dramatically just before it hits the SUV. If the guy landed with such low nose down attitude he would have folded the nose gear anyways. Another clue to a stall is the sudden drop of the left wingtip just before the nose came down. Mind you, the windsock showed ZERO wind plus the plane had a very stable approach up to the very end which tells me, the wing and nose dropping was not normal.

Offline Wade Bognuda

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 11:15:13 PM »
Sadly it was an incident such as this that took the great Randy Rhodes...
(Although there were drugs, alcohol and rock and roll involved in that one)



Bulls**t

Offline Wade Bognuda

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2012, 11:17:35 PM »
Two things:
1) 172 does needs a very shallow approach if landing without flaps. A student pilot on his first solo flight would not have been able to cope with the unusually high nose attitude required to land.
2) 172 stalls at 35kt with flaps and 45 without. The stall horn starts to blare around 50-55. Recommended speed on short final is 65. I wonder if the guy got a little slow and got distracted by a stall horn.

Generous 3500ft although it does have a 400 foot displaced threshold. This actually brings up another question: why was he aiming to land so close to the edge of runway if the touch down zone was 400 further down?


I suspect the unusually high AOA due to zero flaps on final might have caused pilot's view partially obstructed by the panel.


The first time I saw it something caught my eye but I wasn't sure what it was. I kept watching the the video over and over. Then I saw a version of the video in slow motion. I think I saw an airplane stall into the SUV. Hear me out:

The plane was landing without flaps. The pilot setup a regular nose down attitude when landing with full flaps. This means the plane was descending at higher rate. the pilot failed to adjust the power(the engine sound did not change throughout the video) and quickly got below the glide slope. The plane got was getting low and the pilot tried to keep the nose up by pulling on the yoke. The plane slowed down below recommended approach speed, the stall horn started blaring, scaring the pilot. He saw the land approach fast,  pulled even more on the yoke resulting in a stall.
If you look at the video in slow mo, the plane drops the nose rather dramatically just before it hits the SUV. If the guy landed with such low nose down attitude he would have folded the nose gear anyways. Another clue to a stall is the sudden drop of the left wingtip just before the nose came down. Mind you, the windsock showed ZERO wind plus the plane had a very stable approach up to the very end which tells me, the wing and nose dropping was not normal.


More bulls**t

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 12:32:31 AM »

More bulls**t

I didn't really want to get involved in trying to second guess an aircraft accident from a video but...
I've watched the video several times and I agree with Steve that there is the distinct indication of the beginning of a stall just before the plane struck the car.  I won't try to second guess why!   It may not even be important to whose fault anything was but the hesitation and wing drop are definitely there.  And that's not Bulls++t...

Randy Cuberly   
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larry borden

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 07:23:29 AM »
Little off topic, but we hear the same thing in the biker community, 'I didn't see him/her', until I ran into them. It's amazing the things people do while driving. I have become extermely cognizant of those around me and have to be double alert and cautious.

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 07:24:32 AM »

More bulls**t


More bulls**t

Solid argument. Here's another one for you to call "bulls**t" on:

Every pre-solo student always flies with an instructor. When they are sent on their first solo, all they are asked to do is a couple of take offs and landings around the airport. The plane is significantly lighter than what the student is used to so they tend to come in a little higher than usual, float and land a bit further down the runway.

So explain this to me if you can: Why was that airplane's approach so drastically different from a typical first solo approach? It was on too shallow of an angle and 400 feet BEFORE the beginning of the landing zone area.

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2012, 07:28:25 AM »
Little off topic, but we hear the same thing in the biker community, 'I didn't see him/her', until I ran into them. It's amazing the things people do while driving. I have become extermely cognizant of those around me and have to be double alert and cautious.

So true. I had a guy attempt to side-swipe me two times while he was changing lanes. The third time he clipped my front wheel. A car behind me managed to stop 3 feet in front of my helmet. Thank god for full-face helmets, protective gear AND motorcycle safety courses. If it wasn't for them, I would've become a statistic.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2012, 07:46:21 AM »
I didn't really want to get involved in trying to second guess an aircraft accident from a video but...
I've watched the video several times and I agree with Steve that there is the distinct indication of the beginning of a stall just before the plane struck the car.  I won't try to second guess why!   It may not even be important to whose fault anything was but the hesitation and wing drop are definitely there.  And that's not Bulls++t...Randy Cuberly  

Randy,

Great observation!

Yes, that could be a hint of a stall, but it could also be rising warmer air off the road? I don't know the time of day, but Texas is known for heat. Shadows could help determine time of day?

My guess on that, and I did notice it, was low airspeed without the use of flaps. Not using flaps on that approach is a dead giveaway for inexperience or laziness.  

The word "ego" sits deep in a number of individuals. In many cases it's a leading part of someone's character and personality. There's absolutely no place for "egos" in GA. Read some books!

CFI. Just because you're a CFI doesn't mean you have high hours. Doesn't mean your a "better man" also. And BTW, in some cases high hours doesn't have anything to do with pilot proficiency, hardly. Back in the early 80's, when I started my commercial training, my instructor had only a few hundred hours. GA is not the place to start measuring "things" from pilot to pilot. This accomplishes nothing except inform others that a serious conversation is well beyond some individuals.

Imagine, name calling at the scene of a GA incident over disagreement? Pointless, childlike, foolish. etc., etc.

The private pilot's license is only the beginning, the start, of a long learning process over a long period of time, it's your license for that important "first step" to start learning and enjoying GA.

From the remarks from some pilots, if you really are, tells me you have much to learn, mostly about communications and carrying on a civil conversation. We were told not to start a pissing match on Threads.

As are all incidents or just "close calls," there has to be a level of maturity and cooperation among the individuals looking for reasons and ansewers. What GA is not, is Monday morning quarterbacking of some sport event.

A series of wrong decisions, pilot error, close mindedness and egos, has gotten plenty of pilots in trouble, some serious trouble.  

I soloed when I was 18. That was a long time ago. I have no idea how many hours went by before my instructor turned me loose. For whatever the reason might be, most guys want to solo in as few hours as possible. I can't remember this being an issue when I took up flying. It's not a good thing.

The training which any pilot receives, is a direct result of the individual, your CFI, doing the training, task for task.

I strongly believe this individual wasn't ready to solo, just a few more hours could have made a big difference.

I'm not a CFI, I never had interest in giving instruction, but if I was, I wouldn't permit the filming of my student's solo flight. Simply, just another thing to keep his mind off the flight.

But that's me!   n~

Charles

Edited to get the word (p i s s i n g) in. Actually an important word because there's absolutely no place for it in the Forum or in Threads.

The Country is changing, more than ever, we should not devide.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 08:20:46 AM by Avaiojet »
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Offline Wade Bognuda

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2012, 08:23:51 AM »
what say we let this go. We weren't there and speculation is the best we can do. A mistake was made and those involved will sort it out. As pilots it is our job to learn from what happens around us. (model pilots or otherwise) I.m speaking from something close to 25k hrs. I learn every day and this is just another sad event to learn from.

Thanks.

Offline Aaron Little

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2012, 09:26:52 AM »


Bulls**t

 The bus arrived at Flying Baron Estates in Leesburg at about 8:00 a.m. on the 19th and parked approximately 90 yards away from the landing strip and approximately 15 yards in front of the house that would later serve as the accident site. On the bus were: Ozzy Osbourne, Sharon Arden, Rudy Sarzo, Tommy Aldrige, Don Airey, Wanda Aycock, Andrew Aycock, Rachel Youngblood, Randy Rhoads and the bands tour manager. Andrew Aycock and his ex-wife, Wanda, went into Jerry Calhoun’s house to make some coffee while some members of Ozzy Osbourne’s band slept in the bus and others got out and "stretched". Being stored inside of the aircraft hanger at Flying Baron Estates, was a red and white 1955 Beechcraft Bonanza F-35 (registration #: N567LT) that belonged to Mike Partin of Kissimmee, Florida. Andrew Aycock, who had driven the groups bus all night from Knoxville and who had a pilots license, apparently took the plane without permission and took keyboardist Don Airey and the bands tour manager up in the plane for a few minutes, at times flying low to the ground. Unbeknownst to anyone at the time, Andrew Aycock’s medical certificate (3rd class) had expired, thus making his pilots license not valid. Approximately 9:00 a.m. on the morning of March 19th, Andrew Aycock took Rachel Youngblood and Randy Rhoads up for a few minutes. During this trip the plane began to fly low to the ground, at times below tree level, and "buzzed" the bands tour bus three times. On the fourth pass (banking to the left in a south-west direction) the planes left wing struck the left side of the bands tour bus (parked facing east) puncturing it in two places approximately half way down on the right side of the bus. The plane, with the exception of the left wing, was thrown over the bus, hit a nearby pine tree, severing it approximately 10 feet up from the bottom, before it crashed into the garage on the west side of the home owned by Jerry Calhoun. The plane was an estimated 10 feet off the ground traveling at approximately 120 - 150 knots during impact. The house was almost immediately engulfed in flames and destroyed by the crash and ensuing fire, as was the garage (pictured) and the two vehicles inside, an Oldsmobile and a Ford Granada. Jesse Herndon, who was inside the house during the impact, escaped with no injuries. The largest piece of the plane that was left was a wing section about 6 to 7 feet long. The very wing that caught the side of the tour bus, was deposited just to the north of the bus. The severed pine tree stood between the bus and the house. Ozzy Osbourne, Tommy Aldrige, Rudy Sarzo and Sharon Arden, who were all asleep on the bus, were awoken by the planes impact and (at first) thought they had been involved in a traffic accident. Wanda Aycock had returned to the bus while keyboardist Don Airey stood outside and witnesses the accident, as did Marylee Morrison, who was riding her horse within sight of the estate. Two men, at the west end of the runway, witnessed the plane "buzzing" the area when the plane suddenly "went out of sight" as it crashed. Once outside of the bus the band members learned of the catastrophic event that had just taken place. The bus was moved approximately 300 feet to the east of the house that was engulfed in flames. The band checked into the Hilco Inn in Leesburg where they mourned the death of Randy and Rachel and would wait for family members to arrive. While Orlando’s "Rock Super Bowl XIV", scheduled for later that day, was not canceled, the Ozzy Osbourne band would not play and the promoters offered refunds to all ticket holders.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2012, 09:49:47 AM »
   Well, we  were just having a nice conversation about who was at fault for the collision. We weren't discussing the flight characteristics of a Cessna 172. Whether that airplane was stalling or not doesn't make a difference. Whether the pilot is a rank beginner or the second coming of Jimmy Doolittle doesn't make any difference. If the black SUV isn't in his flight path, the airplane is on the ground in one piece. I was making the point that the driver of the SUV was at fault for inattentive driving and his non-actions put the SUV at the point of impact. He wasn't paying attention and wasn't aware of his surroundings. It's no different if he's pulling out in front of a Cessna 172 or a tractor-trailer coming down the road. If it was a tractor-trailer going at the speed of the airplane, he would have been spam in a can. While the pilot of the airplane may not have been making a text book landing, he has priority to that airspace at that point in time and has a reasonable expectation that no one would put a 5000 pound obstacle in his way at the last possible moment. To address the flight condition of the airplane, if he doesn't hit the SUV, I think he still gets the airplane on the ground safely. While he may be at the point of stalling the airplane, he's in ground effect, and that can change the equation. Wouldn't have been the prettiest landing you ever saw, but he probably could have used the airplane again. We'll never know because some careless driver pulled an SUV out in front of his path and caused a collision. If the pilot is guilty of anything, it's being a foot too low. If the SUV isn't there, the out come is completely different. That should be the focus, who could have done what at that time to have prevented the collision. While it's true that the pilot should have been a bit higher on his approach, that is just a mitigating circumstance, in my opinion. I'll bet it's pretty common for airplanes to be at that altitude at that point at that airport for a variety of reasons. That's why there are signs in the area warning of low flying aircraft and stops signs painted on the road. The driver of the SUV, it has been pointed out, has been there before and was familiar with the area and the aircraft operations that take place there. If you factor that in with proper operation of his vehicle and attentive driving, the collision doesn't happen.
     I thought this was a good opportunity to learn a few things. The main lesson is situational awareness. Being aware of your surrounds and situation at all times when operation any kind of vehicle. That is the biggest thing I tried to impress to my kids when teaching them how to drive. Paying attention to your surroundings and your situation can prevent an accident in an SUV, or a Cessna 172 or flying a control line model. If you are aware of a situation and focused you can prevent an accident caused by someone else who isn't. Being observant is the key. I find it interesting that most comments here were initially directed at the pilot and the point of impact, as if the car were parked in a parking lot or on a side street. Maybe that is because we are aviation oriented, licensed pilots or not, and that would be the first thing we thought of. If that were the case, with the car being parked and visible through the whole approach, then yeah, the pilot is completely at fault. But that isn't the case here in this situation. Whether the airplane is 10 inches off the ground and stalling or 10 feet off the ground and flying a text book decent to a landing, he still has priority to that airspace and the SUV should have seen him and yielded to the airplane.
   And I find it funny who brings up the mention of a pissing match. Everything was pretty civil and interesting until a certain someone comes along starts it. Reread the WHOLE thread and it's easy to figure out who that is that starts all the name calling and wild assumptions that takes things off into a different direction. Test your powers of observation and situational awareness.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2012, 10:11:16 AM »
I love reading what you guys are saying but please use paragraphs.. A whole page of text without paragraph breaks is real difficult on old eyes.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2012, 10:29:15 AM »
, Back off, Charles, you're out of line here.

Dan,

Just so you'll know. Here's where the pissing match started. From Will Hinton when he said, "Back off, Charles, you're out of line here." And there are a few other not so obvious spots.  ;D  LL~

Oh, and BTW, the flight characticis of any aircraft has plenty to do with any investigation, and does "make a difference." In fact, sometimes it's key.  LL~  LL~  LL~  LL~  LL~  

Type at you later!

Charles  
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2012, 10:38:34 AM »
More recent news:

The Northwest Regional Airport (52F) Property Owner's Association has tried on several occasions to buy the land associated with the private roadway. The owner doesn't want to sell.

The student pilot has said he will not continue to pursue his license. That is too bad.

Nothing is posted yet on the FAA and NTSB web sites. This stuff usually takes awhile.
"Clockwise Forever..."

Offline EddyR

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2012, 11:13:29 AM »
I remember my first solo landing in a glider at Schweizer aircrafts private field in Elmira NY in 1957. I did a long,long,long straight setup and landed 400+ ft down the runway. I can still hear my instructor and several other  pilots laughing as we pulled the glider back to the take off location at the very end of the runway. I was told to do a straight in landing but that was the last time I ever did one. High performance gliders land very different than powered aircraft. We fly down wind next to the runway and pull up to burn off speed and roll left with a lot of left rudder to kick the tail over to vertical and point the nose very steeply into the ground. Pop the air breaks and flair out and full stop in 200 ft or less. It will scare the s***** out of you the first time you do it no mater how many hours you have. I had less than than three hours when I did that solo. It took me about a dozen flights to get the landing down pat.
 I had a tow rope break and it came back and damaged the wing but I was at 400 ft and landed OK
 I also had to land in a thunder storm so bad I could not see the ground at all. I had flown over 400 miles,contest, and it was getting dark and I was above the bad weather which was causing all the lift. I had ridden the edge of the front for six hours and now was trapped by it. One of the retrieving crew from another teem talked me down. All we has on board back then was a radio with two freq in it and a altimeter that had to be reset for location and two lift instruments. We turned the radio off to save batteries for long lengths of time ~^. I never went above 10,000 ft back then. I went for a ride  to 22,000 10 years ago #^
Ed
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 09:42:21 PM by Ed Ruane »
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Aaron Little

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Re: Someone has some explaining to do!
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2012, 11:17:57 AM »
I love reading what you guys are saying but please use paragraphs.. A whole page of text without paragraph breaks is real difficult on old eyes.

Hey man if that was RE my post I apologize copy and paste one phone is no good.


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