Some "cottage manufacturers"

[Steve Hand]

     While the BOM debate has been transpiring, the mention of two things caught my attention. One, the age of adamant kit builders (aka "baby boomers") and the "suggestion" that "cottage manufacturers" will gravitate to ARF,-RTF-RTC-YBM-SBM-IB51%-IB49%-CBM-MBM-ad infinitum, brings to mind, the age of most of us who basically produce only kits. When you look at seven of us who basically sell ONLY kits, you are seeing at least six "baby boomers". In no particular order and probably leaving someone out unintentionally, you have Blue Sky Models, Al Rabe, Minnesota Modeler, ESP, Richard's Kits, Walter Umland Kits, and Black Hawk Models. I speak for myself only, in that I have no intention of ever going that route. I do not have the volume, the advertizing, nor the ambition of going to the bank everyday with the small fortune made in doing this. I do it for one reason and one reason only. It  makes me happy to do something at age 59 that I enjoyed and learned from as a teenager. Maybe (probably) when this generation passes it will become more difficult to buy a real quality CL kit. What really, really p----- me off are those who wish we had already passed.

     Let me clarify the above labels: You Built the Model, Somebody Built the Model, Chinese Built the Model, and ( I left off a "Y") Ya Momma Built the Model.

[LARRY RICE]

Steve,
          I am a little lost in this conversation, but since you were good enough to include Black Hawk Models, I feel that I need to include my two cents (even though I have no Idea what you are talking about). 
          At Black Hawk Models we feel that the building of the model is an important part of the hobby, as a matter it is the part that separates hobbies from toys. There is a special thrill that goes along with seeing the model that you built lift off of the ground and take to flight. You get a special feel when you are carving, sanding and painting a balsa model. OK! About that toy comment.........if you open a box remove the item inside and then use ....it is a toy it may be bigger and better but it is still the same as a Cox plane. 
           With all of that said Black Hawk Models will NOT gravitate towards RTF's in any way. We feel that the Baby Boomer's will want to get back into the hobby of control line and they will expect it to be the same as when they left it. Oh, they may try one or two RTF's but they will want to be able to build models.
           So, like I said, "I do not know what you are talking about" but that is Black Hawk Models position on RTF's.
Larry

[Bill Sawyer]

Steve, You didn't include me in your group but I do have kits for sale that I produce. There are only two kits available right now but others are planned and in work. They are kits - not the quickie builts and will continue to be available as long as I can keep them going.

[Randy Powell]

And I recently saw one of Bill's kits. Nice work, Bill.

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Steve,

I think you can add Eric Rule, at RSM to your list. Eric makes excellent CL kits. And Eric ONLY sells kits, I think he stopped carrying ARCs/ARFs a long time ago. I just flew with Eric recently (he just lost his ECL virginity by flying my ECL P-40 ;-), and, like the others on your list, he does not have any plans to go the "offshore" route. 

We in CLPA are very lucky to have nice people like Eric and the others you have mentioned to provide us with kits, parts, etc. that make it very easy for us to fly CLPA.

We have the choice of all these excellent kits, plus some very good ARCs and ARFs to fit almost any CLPA flyers needs. This is MUCH better than it was when we were kids in the 1950s and 1960s. Our choices were very limited. The kits, wood, and plans were very poor and often made building a PITA experience for a 10 year old. 

You are correct when you state that there is NOT a large amount of kit mfg. that are going to be producing ARCs/ARFs. There are only a very few doing it, and they are NOT the push behind the movement to join the rest of the world and put the BOM rule in the history books.

I also agree with you that as long as the BB generation is still with us there will be a continued demand for kits. My guess is that when the BOM goes away, there will be an INCREASE in CLPA activity, and like a rising tide, all boats will be lifted. IMHO: we will see an IMCREASE in the demand for kits as some of the additional retreads move from the ARCs/ARFs that brought them back to CLPA, to building one of their favorites from their childhood (Veco Chief, kit Nobler, Ringmaster, etc. etc.). As a retread this is what has happened to me.

I'm glad you made your post. I think people need to see that there is NOT a conspericy of cottage mfg. pushing to get rid of the BOM rule so they can make a fortune by moving to making and selling ARCs/ARFs!

Regards, 

[Steve Hand]

     Having said what I did in my opening post and with pre-emption concerning an apology to those whom I might have left out, I readily appreciate an update on producers of kits. My intention was to try and recognize those who basically produce kits (with hardware enclosed or not), and not get into those who cover the full gamut of items needed to fly them.
     Let me update my own brain by asking Bill, what are the two kits that you produce and what do you have on line to possibly come out with in the future?
     Secondly, let me say that I drool at what Eric offers at RSM! Thanks Rudy for mentioning that company, as it is balsa wood galore. I am going to be buying from him in the near future myself. I want to build an LA Heat.
     When I look at what I do with ESP, it is truly a nitch market. I don't sell very many kits and I don't really care. Like most others, service and quality are the benchmarks. Next, I won't even consider something unless I want to build it myself. Anything that I might try to come out with in the future are purely for me to begin with. Right now, Kyle and I are working on a Bugatti. Will it make a great stunt plane? Probably not. Will it sell? I don't care. All I know is that I will enjoy building it and it will be the sexiest looking chick on the lawn. After that, possibly a P-61 Black Widow. Same criteria.
     After all is said, done, hashed, regurgitated, changed, or stays the same, I owe a debt of gratitude to Randy Smith for helping me get back into this hobby after a forty year hiatus. The first kit I built was one of his Intrepids and my, how things had changed since the 60's. He spent much time on the phone with me trying to bring me up to speed on many items. That was over four years ago and he may not remember, but I DO. Thanks.
     Politics and egos. What a mixture. I just like building model airplanes.
     

[Bradley Walker]

I am not really sure of your point.

So far the only people producing ARF's are Brodak and Top Flite.  So, every manufacturer besides these two is a "kit only" manufacturer.

That is not to say that there will not be more in the future.  It would not shock me to learn if some of the manufacturers listed in your post do not eventually produce ARF's to go with their kits.  It is possible they simply have not yet been given the opportunity.

[LARRY RICE]

Where can I get an alphabet dictionary? so to all of you I say: DAJSEA
doesn't anyone just speak English anymore? 
Larry.....or L....for the rest of you

[SteveMoon]

Steve: I'm not really sure what to make of your post. First of all, we have been
producing laser cut kits here at Ultra Hobby Products for 9 years now and weren't
mentioned. Secondly, you seem to be inferring that 'kit producers' and 'kit builders'
are somehow superior to people who may produce or build ARFs. I'm not sure if
that's your intention or not, but if is, then it's ridiculous.

By the end of the year we are planning on offering a Component Kit (almost ARF)
of the Gieseke Nobler. This will be a top quality, competition worthy plane. It will
have Sig maple motor mounts, adjustable leadout guide, a quality control system
with adjustable carbon fiber pushrods, ball links, pre-bent horns and more. The planes
will come pre-covered in clear, paintable film. This is by no means a 'toy'. I have seen
that reference made in this thread, and it is also ridiculous. Pre-built or not, these
are not toys.

In the future, Ultra Hobby will offer both kits and component kits. And, I see absolutely
nothing wrong with either. There's plenty of room in the hobby for both.

Thanks, Steve Moon

[john e. holliday]

Steve,  that looks a lot better than I could build. Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[SteveMoon]

Thanks Doc. It's a great flying little plane. It was unbelievably
easy to build. And the quality is amazing. It took me two days
to build it and two days to paint it. Weighs 43 oz. and flies
just like my Ultra Hobby kit built G Nobler. Now I have two great
GNs to choose from. WoooHooo!!

Latre, Steve

[Richard Grogan]

Steve: I'm not really sure what to make of your post. First of all, we have been
producing laser cut kits here at Ultra Hobby Products for 9 years now and weren't
mentioned. Secondly, you seem to be inferring that 'kit producers' and 'kit builders'
are somehow superior to people who may produce or build ARFs. I'm not sure if
that's your intention or not, but if is, then it's ridiculous.

By the end of the year we are planning on offering a Component Kit (almost ARF)
of the Gieseke Nobler. This will be a top quality, competition worthy plane. It will
have Sig maple motor mounts, adjustable leadout guide, a quality control system
with adjustable carbon fiber pushrods, ball links, pre-bent horns and more. The planes
will come pre-covered in clear, paintable film. This is by no means a 'toy'. I have seen
that reference made in this thread, and it is also ridiculous. Pre-built or not, these
are not toys.

In the future, Ultra Hobby will offer both kits and component kits. And, I see absolutely
nothing wrong with either. There's plenty of room in the hobby for both.

Thanks, Steve Moon

Steve,
I think he was going by what he saw in the"Vendors Corner" of this site. I'm sure Robert will let you list UHP on there....Just a thought.I think that Nobler's gonna be a killer!

[SteveMoon]

Thanks Richard!!

[Steve Hand]

My posts are merely my opinion. Take what you want (or none) and leave the rest. The last I heard they were like noses. Anyway, I  do appreciate UHP's contribution to modeling.

[Bill Little]

Hi Steve (Moon),

I don't think Steve (Hand) of ESP intentionally left anyone out of his list, and he opened by apologising to anyone who he may have. 

The "G" Nobler, if it is like your kit, will be killer.

It is difficult for many to know just WHO ARE producing kits, in the "cottage industry".  It's almost a word of mouth deal.  Brodak, and to a lesser extent Eric Rule do the most "advertising" I would guess, and I do not consider either of them a "cottage industry".

You, at UHP, are probably one of the larger ones as far as diversity of kit subjects in the cottage industry dealing with CLPA followed by Tom Morris, Walter U., Tom N. (Blue Sky), Randy Smith (Aero) and Tom Dixon, at least to *my* knowledge.  Yet it would be difficult for many to find it out unless they visit the boards or someone tells them about y'all.  I have one of Bill Sawyer's Playboy Kits (a partial "special deal") and it is excellent, but very few know about him, either.  Even Larry with Blackhawk is not super widely known!  And he really pushes to get the word out, plus he offers so many different subjects.  Action Hobbies is another cottage industry which offers several fine subjects as mostly short kits.  Man, there are MANY, but I have actively sought out the ones who do produce supplies for us.  And I KNOW I am leaving someone out! (but I don't know WHO! LOL!!)

The quality if everything I have seen from the "cottage industry" most often exceeds the "regular companies" simply because more personal effort is made for each kit.  Add to that the "uniqueness" of subjects, and the man hours needed to produce a "kit"........ I don't know how y'all do it!  And I know that none of y'all will ever retire to the Bahamas on your proceeds from your kits.

I thank each and every one of you who provide the excellent products that you do!  And I appreciate the work that all of you put into your products.

The sad part is, we, as CLPA modelers, are such a minute segment of the overall modeling world, and as such we need to support each other as much as possible.

As for UHP I will say, Steve, that I have been more than pleased with your service and products.  I say the same for what I have received from Tom N., Walter U., and Bill S.  The fact that I have bought a ton of balsa over the years and tend to build from plans (plus the Missus severely limits my modeling budget! LOL!!) means that I don't buy too many kits.  My major costs therefore is my "time".  It's not because the products are not exceptional!  And with laser cutting, I KNOW how my ribs will always be made from now on! 

I wish continued and improved success to each and every one of you who take the time and effort to do what you do.

Bill Little <><

[SteveMoon]

Thanks for the kind words Bill.  Steve

[Andrew Borgogna]

Bill
I know Eric personally and his business is most definetly a cottage work shop.  He works out of his home and is basically a three person operation.  One person is a CAD specialest, I forget what the second person does and Eric makes all the kits himself. 
Andy

[Bill Little]

Bill
I know Eric personally and his business is most definetly a cottage work shop.  He works out of his home and is basically a three person operation.  One person is a CAD specialest, I forget what the second person does and Eric makes all the kits himself. 
Andy

Thanks for the info, Andy.  From what he provides, he is, I would suspect, the largest "cottage" industry supplier in the history of C/L!  I thought his operation was much larger.

Over the years, through conversaions with Eric, I have found him to be a super guy.

Bill <><

[Garf]

I know one thing. The TF ARF Nobler I have is built lighter than I could ever build. How long it lasts remains to be seen.

[Doug Moon]

When you buy your car from GM, Ford, Dodge or one of the many others it comes complete and it is NOT a toy.

[bruce malm]

As long as there are kits I will be building and I also have some scratch built designs I will build copies of from my youth.  Currently I am finishing up a Skylark from the original kit. It will be powered by a McCoy 35 and finished with monocote. There is an ARES and a Tucker special, each about 2/3's done. Sorry to say they will mostly be done in Monocote. I also have a lot of the ARF's. With the ARF's I can try different airplanes with out the amount of time needed to build  each one. If I like the plane enough, I will build it later. As  I hope to move in the next year or so to Tulsa, OK, my biggest problem will be figuring out which of the 35 RC airplanes and about 30 CL planes to keep and to pack them all. Almost all of the ARF's will be given away or sold very cheaply to various people, clubs, etc. in the hopes they will get good use in promoting the model airplane hobby. Once I move, a lot more of my planes will be finished with paint. However, until I do move, I will continue to build  model airplanes as that is one of the 2 hobbies I love so much and that have figured in Teena's and my decision to move to Tulsa.

So no matter what the form, KITs, ARF's, or ARC's, I applaud anyone that takes the time and investment to keep this wonderful hobby going and hope it will be around for many years and maybe get a few more yougun's off the keyboard and into the work shop.

And Steve, Please put me on the list for the Gieske Nobler prefab kit.  I have 2 of the original kits I will build after I move just for old times sake, plus about 40 other kits. Besides, the more I have, the more I can pass on to others before heading East.

Bruce   

[catdaddy]

...However, until I do move, I will continue to build  model airplanes as that is one of the 2 hobbies I love so much and that have figured in Teena's and my decision to move to Tulsa.

.
Bruce   

Hey Bruce
Glad you decided on Tulsa. I saw the note you left in the club house. Sorry I missed meeting you and Teena.

[Bill Sawyer]

Steve,
    I have two kits in stock ready to ship. The Argus ( a Steve Wooley plane ) and the Playboy ( the classic legal version flown by Norm Whittle in the 1968 NATS ) For a description of these please refer to the vendor's corner under Windancer Models. You will also find a list of several canopies that I produce which are mostly reproductions from old kits. I also supply leather fillets and they are listed there also.
    I recently purchased the rights to the Tucker 4 and plan to produce it as soon as I can hire someone to do the Autocad work for it to be laser cut. I have the Ballerina III in the Autocad drawing stage and plan to start cutting those kits as soon as the drawings are ready. I had produced several of them as hand cut some time back and want to upgrade the kits to laser cutting. There are other planes planned or in work and announcements will be out when the kits are ready to ship.

Bill Sawyer

[minnesotamodeler]

Well, I had a carefully-composed response to this but it seems to have been lost nearly as soon as it was posted.  Not important anyhow.

--Ray

[Bradley Walker]

Steve,
    I have two kits in stock ready to ship. The Argus ( a Steve Wooley plane ) and the Playboy ( the classic legal version flown by Norm Whittle in the 1968 NATS ) For a description of these please refer to the vendor's corner under Windancer Models. You will also find a list of several canopies that I produce which are mostly reproductions from old kits. I also supply leather fillets and they are listed there also.
    I recently purchased the rights to the Tucker 4 and plan to produce it as soon as I can hire someone to do the Autocad work for it to be laser cut. I have the Ballerina III in the Autocad drawing stage and plan to start cutting those kits as soon as the drawings are ready. I had produced several of them as hand cut some time back and want to upgrade the kits to laser cutting. There are other planes planned or in work and announcements will be out when the kits are ready to ship.

Bill Sawyer

I have an honest question.

Why do the cottage industry kit manufacturers only produce classic kits? 

How come there are no original designs?

[minnesotamodeler]

I have an honest question.

Why do the cottage industry kit manufacturers only produce classic kits? 

How come there are no original designs?

OK I gotta respond to that...most of my kits are original designs.  In fact I have  kitted only 2 classic designs, the Snapper and the Queen Bee, and those were by specific request.  Part of the reason I produce kits is that it gives me a rationale for tinkering with new designs. Besides, of course, the ego boost of others flying my designs.   I enjoy making available interesting, as well as well-flying, airplanes. 

And if you want to see "original", you oughtta see all the ones I could have kitted but didn't...

--Ray
Minnesotamodeler
http://snipurl.com/9igp

[MikeyPratt]

I have an honest question.

Why do the cottage industry kit manufacturers only produce classic kits? 

How come there are no original designs?

No so Brad!!!
Primary Force, Force, coming soon Delta Force, and others on the drawing board.

Mikey

[Randy Powell]

I've only seen one UHP kit that a friend of mine bought and built. Near as I could tell, it's a nice kit.

I suspect that classic kits are more prevalent because the demand is greater. Not sure how many kits Steve would sell if he were kitting one of my designs. I like them, but...

Planes like the Impact, Trivial Pursuit, Saturn and other "famous" desgins probably sell well, also. But it's a case of people wanting what they want.

I build the occasionaly kit (the Walter Umland kit that I built and am now re-finishing is a case in point), but not many.

[MikeyPratt]

Part of the problem with the ARFS is that simple fact that three of the cottage kit makers have had a drop in sales directly related to ARFS. This is from them to me in converstions. Still true today, two years later.  It is understandable, but not liked. Kinda like buggy whip makers, than came the automobile. Yet, we still have those that build their own "cars" from kits or make their own parts, but even those are getting very few and far between.

The same thing is happening in model railroading. Used to be you got a kit of a box car, wood parts and built it. Then along came almost ready to run, "shake the box" kits of plastic and now really ready to run, just take them out of the box. Pre gauged trucks, proper weight for running, etc. Progress isn't always appreciated, but it happens. 

Ty,
The sales of the P-Force long kits have continued to go up in-spite of the Sig ARF P-Force.  I thought for sure that the bottom would fall out of my kits sales but they are going up so your statement is not really true.

The biggest reason for most cottage manufacturers not offering ARF models is the amount of money needed to order a run of ARF kits from China (1/2 with order and the remainder before shipping).  Most of the manufacturers won't even consider anything less than a 200 kit run unless they are 1/4 scale models.  In fact most want 500 kit runs for the best prices on smaller kits.

Mikey

Mikey

[Alan Hahn]

My guess is that any kit manufacturer today--especially in CL-- is a cottage industry when compared to "real" industry (don't mean to put down anyone here!)

Another guess is that (except for Jim Renkar of course), that I bet the % of ARFS that actually fly over those that are bought is larger than the kits that get built over those bought---even when compared to the time when CL ARF's didn't really exist. At least when I look in my storage area, there are a lot of unbuilt kits there (primarily RSM as it turns out), but only one unassembled ARF (a standard Super Clown). One day, one day I plan to build those kits.

Finally I wonder if BOM has anything to do with ARF/ARC/kit sales---I am betting that most (or at least a large %) people (especially the top flyers) who go to the NATs are not coming with kit built planes anyway.

Just a couple of random neuron firings.

[LARRY RICE]

         It is true that several of our kits, at Black Hawk Models, are remakes of older model kits but we also have several original designs that were made in house and several that were designed by designers who were unable to get there designs produced by anyone else. Dick Sarpolus has several terrific designs that were never produced until Black Hawk Models picked them up, and Frank Scott is working on some for us right now. But most of our sales and most of the demand comes from modelers who want to see the older kits reproduced. In many of our kits we don't dare make any changes. Our biggest effort was a scale Fokker D-7, we tied up a lot of capital getting it laser cut, redesigning and putting the kit out. We need to sell so many to break even and sales are so slow that we will never see a profit on it. New designs are always a big risk, they can drive you out of business. When I first started making kits, in the 1970's, I took one of those risk that drove me out of the business for 20 years.  That is why most companies use well accepted designs as a base for their companies, then take the chances when they can afford to do so. I believe that most companies have several planes of their own designs, just most modelers only notice the older ones.
Larry

[Tom Niebuhr]

I have been staying out of these discussions intentionally, But Ty is correct we have been hurt. but almost every day I have people telling me their Arf horror stories.

Together with several incidents that occurred while I was in the Aerospace industry, I would find it hard to believe that I could trust the Chinese to maintain promised quality.

Mike is right on with the min. order requirements, and I cannot hock my house to have 200 or more "kits" made, and I cannot find  a suger daddy to help.

The time and effort required to make quality products, in my case. is very high, since I even do my own CAD work. This is one way for me to keep the quality, after all that is all we really have to sell.

I would love to produce a new design kit, of MY design, in fact I have one that I developed as an Intermediate step up airplane. (3 have been built and have been campaigned very successfully). The problem is time.. Including Blue Sky Models, I am working 3 jobs, to make ends meet.. I just need more time.

Lastly. isn't it amazing that we now have some kit "manufacturers" that don't build their own kits, or hire people to help. . And, we wonder where the American jobs are going!? There is a place for some Arfs, but wouldn't it be nice to see one "Made in the U.S."

Steve Hand thanks for the words, we 'little guys" have to stick together.

[Steve Hand]

Ty,

In reference as to why certain planes were (are) selected in my little world, I have to go back and look at what I knew I would probably confront from the designer as far as permission or any other thing they might stipulate. Let me just say that I was blessed as I literally made contact with three of the four. I try to put a little twist in my selections, as each of the models are from a different country. My main concern was that they be able to trust me and I in return, would represent their design to the public with as close to original design as possible. The one area where I could not do this was in the area of "take-a-part". That is another realm altogether. It would have cost me a fortune. Three of these kits were designed that way and one of the three is very difficult in design/construction concept. Anyone wanting to go that route, I try to lead them to the source that is knowledgable about that specific plane. My "Classic legal" product was procured from plans out of Britain. NOBODY knows the status, where-abouts, etc. of Frank Warburton and don't think I haven't tried. I keep expecting a royalties request from a funeral home. Hope not. 

[Bill Little]

Hi Steve,

In mentioning Frank Warburton, it is odd that he just "disappeared", isn't it?  He was such a well know figure in his time period.  I know of at least 3 planes that were published that I have seen.  I built his "Tony" in 1971 (not real well, but the frame work still exists! LOL!!).

I would have thought that Dave Day or Tug Wilson, or one of those guys *might* have known something.  But I understand that no one knows where he is.

Knowing a lot of the "cottage industry guys", I appreciate the fact that y'all DO contact and work with the original designer if at all possible.  That is VERY honorable in this day and time.  I have a good idea (in my mind) as to why that is, but it probably would not be expedient to vocalize it in this day and time! LOL!!

[Jim Oliver]

I am not 100% certain of the purpose of Steve's first post, so have not made a comment until this morning.

So, here it is (Drum Roll, please!): 

Where would the CL community be if all the "cottage industry" guys were to disappear? 
Just try to imagine that scene for a bit.

Jim 

[Bill Little]

The way I understand the original post is that the C.I guys are not going to be able, nor necessasarily want to, go the ARF/ARC route in the majority of cases.  Therefore, *they* are not the ones pushing for a dropping of the BOM, as what *might* have been alluded to in some other threads.

People who are producing Arc/Arfs are making business decisions based on making a profit.  I feel that the "bottom line", business wise, is what has driven the production of these models.  I don't feel that it is a push in any way to destroy the C/L hobby, nor to abolish the BOM.  A rule is in place for contests that allows anyone to fly anything in any contest short of the NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS in Age Group Classes and Advanced.  Those are the recognised National Championship Classes and therefore fall under the AMA rule of the BOM.  So, unless you expect to winthe Walker Trophy with a Strega or Score ARF, then you are pretty much safe to compete.  Where is the problem in that scenario?

Anyway, back to the C.I. guys......... without them, we would much for the worse.

[Bradley Walker]

I work in aerospace.  I have also worked in the automotive industry for more than a decade.  I have been an engineer and project manager for more than 15 years.

Building a V-22 Tiltrotor, an F-16, or an automobile that will drive 300,000 miles without a major failure is a WORLD away from building toys for our amusement from sticks of wood and hot glue.

I do not care one single bit if the third world wants to build our toys.  I do not think we are losing any jobs gluing balsa sticks together and covering it with Doritos bags.  This entire idea that we are losing precious American jobs due to the blossoming ARF market is simply unfounded and alarmist. 

The fact of the matter is that there are very few “real” jobs in the American modeling business, especially in control line.  Most people work FOR FREE or for minimum wage, and there is no money to be made.  It is a labor of love.  There are two people I know of that make their living from stunt and don’t live with their mother:  Windy (videos) and Randy Smith (PA Aero/kits/design/etc etc etc).

John Brodak has never made a single dime on his control line business.  He is still way in the red (mostly due to the Brodak dope you guys love so much), and he will probably never get into the black.  He uses his other SUCCESSFUL food distributing businesses to support his CL business.  In this way stunt is almost like a charity.  However, I will say that John EMPLOYS more people for the sake of the control line (and control line only) than anyone in the entire United States.  Who do you think is taking all those orders, shipping all those kits, and maintaining the Brodak facilities?  American workers, that’s who!!!  I do not mean people who do this in their spare time while having a real job either.  These are full time American workers.  So, the truth be told, when you buy an ARF from Brodak you are supporting more American workers than most of the cottage industry manufacturers put together. 

That is what a lot of people do not see when they look at the economy.  While the end product might be made in China, the entire infrastructure will be American.  I guess I get pissed when I see companies outsource the INFASTRUCTURE!!!  For example, I do not care if cell phones are made in Tawain.  I just care that they are designed, marketed, supported, and sold by Americans.

[Keith Spriggs]

Very perceptive and well said Bradley.

[Bradley Walker]

I have been staying out of these discussions intentionally, But Ty is correct we have been hurt. but almost every day I have people telling me their Arf horror stories.

Together with several incidents that occurred while I was in the Aerospace industry, I would find it hard to believe that I could trust the Chinese to maintain promised quality.

I remember flying in contests in District 8 in the late 1980’s and seeing planes in the trash cans at the end of nearly every contest.  Most of the time the plane crashed from a folded wing, a pulled bellcrank, a broken leadout, etc etc.  It was considered normal for planes to fail, especially in the intermediate and beginner ranks.  Airplane failure has improved a lot since then due to improved control systems and products and the Internet, but is probably still common.

ARF “horror stories”…  hmmmm…

I doubt those will continue.  The last prototypes I saw from John’s ARF manufacturer were made for UHP and shipped to my house.  These planes were top notch full blown competition stunt planes that were built better than 98% of all CL stunt fliers could build.  These were all built up laser cut models with top of the line ball link/carbon fiber pushrod/phenolic bellcrank control system.   Steve Moon had them at the Nats if you were there.  Many of the top stunt fliers in the country were BLOWN AWAY by what they saw, and said they wanted one as soon as they were available.

If someone says says that “all ARF’s are junk” is dismissive and shows a simple ignorance of what is going on in the market right now.  The truth of the matter is that if YOU can build it THEY can build it, and probably better since they use factory jigs, laser cutting, all molded skins, etc etc and they do it FOR A LIVING. 

Any first run quality issues were simply a matter of the fact that these are RC plane manufacturers that are LEARNING to build CL planes, and the initial offerings were rushed to the market due to demand.  I know John has “slowed his roll” a bit on new models, and I expect them to be near perfection when they are released.  All it takes to get everything you want in a new plane project is patience and people who know what to look for in the design and execution.  My guess is this is why Mikey Pratt’s stuff is getting rave reviews, as I am sure that Mike is bringing his demanding stunt flier self to the equation.

I also do not think that the “little guy vs. the corporate giant” view is correct either.  The truth is that we are a small group and we ALL need to stick together.  I know John shares this sentiment, and is CONSTANTLY helping the smaller producers by sharing his suppliers, contacts, resources, etc.  He even includes his COMPETITION in his own catalogue, and has recently started CLW where all the cottage industry guys can sell their wares.

[Bradley Walker]

UHP makes a modern plane or two.  Part of the problem with doing a more modern plane is if it was in a recent magazine is the issue of copyrights, etc and paying the designer for the right to produce the kit. Some don't want anything, some want big bucks.  I got this info from Bob  Hunt, Walter Umland, Eric Rule,

Ha ha ha hah ah hah ha...

Only in CL stunt could a design that is nearly 20 YEARS OLD considered MODERN!!!

I talked to Steve about this.  UHP kits the Impact and Saturn, both are considered "cutting edge" stunt planes, both of these were designed before the 1990's!!!  I would like to see Steve go back to designing his own planes, so I will keep pushing this idea.  I think people will buy a good plane, period!!!  Who designed the Score?  Does anyone even care who the Yatsenko brothers are???  One of the best selling ARF's from Brodak is the P-40 and it was designed by Pat Johnston.

Personally, I have never even HEARD of a designer that would not allow his designs to be kitted for nearly nothing.  Most do it for a few kits.  Even though Bob G. used to get monthly checks from Top Flite for the G. Nobler sales (back when control line was NOT a cottage industry).  Heck, anybody could give a guy a cut of the profits if they are wanting to get that new swimming pool this year, after a few years, it might add up to enough to get a good bottle of Tequila...

[Bradley Walker]

Well put Brad. But be aware of the fact that RSM employs some people and so does Tom Morris.  Not a big bunch of people, but Americans at any rate.  One thing not understood by many as to the cottage industry is that at least four other people are involved in producing a single kit. The kit manufacturer, generally a separate laser cutter, the balsa supplier, box company, plans printers, the CAD guy, and UPS/USPS/FEDEX,  and the origianl designer.

Sure.  exactly.

One thing that people need to realize is that NO ONE is getting rich from CL stunt kits or ARF's.  The highest profit item being sold today is IMHO Windy's video business.  He records himself screwing off in his basement, burns to a 50 cent tape and sells it for $15!!!!  Now that is a business!!!  He is his sole employee, all the money goes right there in the old pocket.

What we need kids IS MORE CONSUMERS!!!  Start thinking like capitalists!!!  We need more people flying CL stunt fellas!!  That is what we need!!!  Maybe kits sales are not were you need them to be because their are not enough people in the hobby!!!

If you want to sell more stuff, get the word on the street about CL stunt!!! 

Maybe that is the problem here, poor MARKETING!!!

[Steve Hand]

Hi Jim,

In response to #39, I don't think that they will ever just go away. Some will rotate out of it and others in, so long as there is an interest. As a kid, every boy in our neighborhood flew and built model airplanes. I might add that while my dad was in the hobby shop business, I worked there after school and was privy to watching things change on a level of interest such as slot cars. They eclipsed model planes. As to the quality of kits, I don't think anything at that time surpasses what we have access to now as far as quality in kit form or RTF. I believe we are well served in a lot of arenas and will continue to be so as long as people keep making circles. Thanks.

[Randy Powell]

>>These planes were top notch full blown competition stunt planes that were built better than 98% of all CL stunt fliers could build.<<

I think the percentage is probably closer to 80% but hey, whatever. 

[Bradley Walker]

>>These planes were top notch full blown competition stunt planes that were built better than 98% of all CL stunt fliers could build.<<

I think the percentage is probably closer to 80% but hey, whatever. 

OK, 80% then.  You win.

[Mark Scarborough]

Bradley, I go along with most of what you said in this thread, however, by saying 98 percent, thats a pretty limiting number. In my area, that beign the north west, I think there is perhaps 30 or lets be agressive and say 40 stunt pilots of all classes. In your range, you are limiting this to say that there is ONE builder capable of building to this level? I konw of at least 5 out of the 40 capable of building as well as anyone IMHO. thats more in line with 20 percent I think, other than that , YOu have made some valid points.

[Bill Little]

My final thoughts on this......

The equipment we can obtain at the present is worlds better than what we could EVER get in the past.  Kits, controls, engines, Arfs/Arcs all of which are better than anything offered at any other time in our history.

Can anyone deny that??  No, I know not.  But, I know a couple of the low production kit makers have and are feeling the pinch of the trends in stunt.  That is a worrisome fact since these guys do such a great job!  I can only hope that they can afford to continue.

As I have said previously, and Brad pointed out, NO ONE is going to retire to the Bahamas off of what they make from anything pertaining to C/L.  If they do, they are VERY lucky!

I am thankful that the only problems I am personally likely to experience from a C/L stand point is that I might not be able to obtain primo 4 lb. balsa wood.  We are in the best of times for C/L fliers, overall, and I do not want to lose anyone from our ranks.  Brad makes a point that I have tried to make, also.  That we are a minute segment of the modeling world, we all need to stick together!  Like a family.. one brother can fight the other, but the guy from down the street had better not jump on either one!

[MikeyPratt]

As I have said previously, and Brad pointed out, NO ONE is going to retire to the Bahamas off of what they make from anything pertaining to C/L.  If they do, they are VERY lucky!
[/quote]

Boy that is the truth <LOL> I do this for all the glory and free women in the world (more LOL).

I'm pretty much a one man show by designing, CAD drawings, Laser cut files, printing plans & writing instruction books for my models.  I know I'm a little slow but I have always designed the model and fully evaluated the prototype before releasing the model.  Sometimes it takes a few different prototypes before you get it right.  For example the first prototype of the P-Force was hacked on and cut many times before the final configuration was reached.  In addition, I build a fit check model before the kits leave the shop.  This way I know that what you are getting is as good if not better than anything out there.

Later,
Mikey

 

[Randy Powell]

>>free women in the world <<

Free women? Gee, all the ones I know are expensive. I could buy a PA engine a month on what my wife spends on horses.   

[Tom Niebuhr]

Mikey,

I follow exactly the same procedures,  from the CAD to making non cad parts, instruction manuals with assembly pictures, and ALWAYS a fit check model finished and flying. And don't forget the advertisement copy. etc etc. That is the only for us lone eagles to guarantee a quality product. It is slow but necessary.

[Dennis Adamisin]

The owner of (now defunct) DreamCatcher Hobbies once told me the way to make a small fortune in modeling.... was to start with a large fortune.  His volumes and sales (mostly Nostalgia class sailplanes) far exceeded what anyone in CL is doing, but in the end he really could not keep it going.

RC Sailplanes crossed the $2000 per barrier 10 years ago!  In a post BOM world you can expect similarly priced  (LOOOOW volume) CLPA birds to come to market - but don't expect to get rich off them...!

[Bradley Walker]

[quote;

I know of one designer that is holding out for big bucks. I guess he hasn't heard the news. 

Well, everyone needs to have a dream...

My dream is to be a towel boy for the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.  I am just waiting for their call.  Sweet!!!!

[MikeyPratt]

Well, everyone needs to have a dream...

My dream is to be a towel boy for the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders.  I am just waiting for their call.  Sweet!!!!

WOW Brad!  Cool idea. 
Let me know if it works out for you.  BTW: I would be really jealous if it does <LOL>.
Mikey

[MikeyPratt]

Mikey,

I follow exactly the same procedures,  from the CAD to making non cad parts, instruction manuals with assembly pictures, and ALWAYS a fit check model finished and flying. And don't forget the advertisement copy. etc etc. That is the only for us lone eagles to guarantee a quality product. It is slow but necessary.

Tom,
Not to mention the time required to test fly and trim the model to see if your assumptons were correct <LOL>.  Not always an easy thing to determine if the end result was worth all the trouble.

At this time I see very few reasons to go to the trouble of reproducing a Classic or OTS model.  Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy building and flying OTS & Classic, but I believe that my time is better spent on new design ideas and procedures.  My dad designed and built a model that was OTS legal but there is very little info on it, so it is doubtful it would ever be legal.   He wasn't much on names so he called it the White Stunt Job

I did find an old drawing of a model I designed in 1969 that should be classic legal so that may be worth considering as a kit.  From what I remember it flew pretty good back then but it may not be up to Classic standards of performance.

Later,
Mikey     

[LARRY RICE]

          Here is something that has been overlooked. There has always been several "Cottage Industries" in the hobby business, in fact it has been the main industry for most of the history of modeling. O&R, McCoy, Atwood and most of the other engine producers started in their garages...some never left their garage shops. Most model kit producers did the same, the few that did operate from factories did so because their original business was cutting Balsa wood. Things have changed now....I depend on "out sourcing" a lot of the things that goes into my kits, most to Sig, Du-Bro, Perfect, Lonestar, and Trillium......but that is the way ALL business operate today. Things change but YOU are the cause for those changes....You decide what we manufacture. If you order everything on line and never go to a Hobby Store guess what you will get, if you buy nothing but toys....guess what you will get; to make a living we have to give you what you want to buy.
 
Larry

[MikeyPratt]

[quote;
Only in CL stunt could a design that is nearly 20 YEARS OLD considered MODERN!!!
quote;
Personally, I have never even HEARD of a designer that would not allow his designs to be kitted for nearly nothing.  Most do it for a few kits. 

Considering that the pattern is old. most planes are designed to fly it, so the advance in designs is going to be in very samll increments. Thus the Saturn, Imitation, etc, are, for better or worse, cutting edge. So does anyone kit the Patternmaster??

I know of one designer that is holding out for big bucks. I guess he hasn't heard the news. 

Hi Ty,
I sure hope that designer is not holding his breath either <LOL>.

Designing a good flying model is the easy part.  Designing a model to put in a box and making a reasonable profit selling it is the real trick.  Generally, cottage manufacturers work on a lower overhead and sell their designs to the public for less money than a comparable kit sold from a big manufacturer.  I can’t speak for other cottage manufacturers, but I manufacturer kits because it is what I like to do.  I get a big kick from watching my designs flying in the hands of other people.  If I was worrying just about the bottom line from my kit sales I would be better off working part time at the corner gas station.  I spend a huge amount of time on designing and producing kits, way more than I will ever get paid for.

Later,
Mikey       

[Bob Reeves]

Hey Mikey..

Are you still making/selling the cool carbon fiber profile landing gear?

Bob

[MikeyPratt]

Hey Mikey..

Are you still making/selling the cool carbon fiber profile landing gear?

Bob

Hi Bob,
Yes, only the price has gone up a little.

Later,
Mikey

[Mike Foley]

>>>The highest profit item being sold today is IMHO Windy's video business.  He records himself screwing off in his basement, burns to a 50 cent tape and sells it for $15!!!!  Now that is a business!!!  <<<

  I emailed Windy a while back enquiring about a video he made on setting up the Strega ARC.  His reply was it is a several video set and the price was about ninety bucks.  That's a lot of hours screwing off in the basement to show some tips in Assembly of a ARC. 

" I passed "

[john e. holliday]

It all depends on how bad you want the product.  Just look at the E-Bay sometime.  I would swear that some people have more money than brains.  Also seen at one of the auctions the local RC club used to have that has tunred into a gigantic swap meet.  A couple of individuals were sitting in the crowd with all the catalogs.  They were actually bidding more than some items were worth.  I have watched a few of Windy's video that a local modeler had.  He does do a lot of talking while doing things and why he does it that way.  He also at times showed a different method on some things.  Anyway the tapes may be low priced, but, the equipment is not cheap to produce them.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Chris McMillin]

Hi Steve,

In mentioning Frank Warburton, it is odd that he just "disappeared", isn't it?  He was such a well know figure in his time period.  I know of at least 3 planes that were published that I have seen.  I built his "Tony" in 1971 (not real well, but the frame work still exists! LOL!!).

I would have thought that Dave Day or Tug Wilson, or one of those guys *might* have known something.  But I understand that no one knows where he is.

Knowing a lot of the "cottage industry guys", I appreciate the fact that y'all DO contact and work with the original designer if at all possible.  That is VERY honorable in this day and time.  I have a good idea (in my mind) as to why that is, but it probably would not be expedient to vocalize it in this day and time! LOL!!

Bill,
Jim Mayfield is the designer of the Playboy kitted by Bill Sawyer. He dropped off the Earth also, no one knows his whereabouts in the C/L community!
Chris...

[Steve Hand]

     Well. This has certainly been a little adventure in personalites and motives. One could write a doctoral thesis about either one, based on the replies and/or rebuttals on the three threads concerning BOM, cottage, or consequences. My curiosity was so piqued and I was so bored last night, that I went back to Stuka and reviewed some of the same topics and contenders from 03, 04, and 05. Not much has changed. Me either. I think 60 years of perpetuated artistic heritage in this small world, is a reflection of a man's inner soul.

[Bill Little]

Bill,
Jim Mayfield is the designer of the Playboy kitted by Bill Sawyer. He dropped off the Earth also, no one knows his whereabouts in the C/L community!
Chris...

Thanks, Chris!  I only knew about Norm Whittle's involvement with the Playboy.

Any progress on the California Shark??  (had to ask )

[Dave Nyce]

I saw the mention of Black Hawk Models, and I just wanted to add my opinion that they are really great.  I've been working with some kids at an orphanage to teach them to build and fly 1/2A C/L planes, and Black Hawk Models has supplied some kits for the kids to build, including paint, glue, and other items.  (Thanks again Larry!)

I am a "baby boomer" returning to C/L after many years of being too busy doing other things.  I bought a few ARFs to get started (Nobler, Oriental, Flite Streak, Cardinal), but also bought a few kits that I will build soon.  I enjoy building from kits or from scratch, or combinations of same, but was also happy that the ARFs were available.  When the kids move up to the larger aircraft, I'll show them with the ARFs.  That way, it won't feel like a big loss in time and effort on my part when the planes are damaged in training.

Dave

[Iskandar Taib]

I suppose one COULD make a case for the BOM hurting (or preventing the existence of) one potential class of cottage manufacturer. That would be someone who might produce a ARF (or RTF) of the caliber and price of the Yatsenko Shark. Needn't be anything like a Shark, of course, but there COULD be a thriving cottage industry of people producing, say, fully built Impacts for $3000 each.. Economies of scale and tooling might actually make it profitable even if one only sells 20-30 models per year.

As for what would happen if cottage manufacturers dissapeared - well, F2D as we know it would dissapear. All those F2D RTFs we buy from the Ukraine and Moldavia are produced, I've been told, by an army of housewives equipped with jigs. Put the pot on the stove, glue in a some ribs until dinner is ready.

[peabody]

Yup....the current crop of ARFs/ARCs.....are generally lighter and straighter than most Beginner/Intermediate builders are capable of creating, and certainly lend themselves to modifications by Advanced and Expert flyers.

The SCORE, in the hands of Expert flyers like Bill Hummel or Bill Suarez, has certainly proved that it can perform as well as most kits/home-made designs.....

PLUS, they assemble quickly and may be built without the need of toxic finished....

[Bill Little]

Rich,

Billy Suarez has been flying long enough to make a 1/2A hollow log competitive in Expert on the local level if he wanted to.

Arfs/Arcs are *GENERALLY* straight and decent as far as weight goes.  Of course any expert level pilot can make one perform to levels approacing their own designs.  Trimming, power, etc. are all areas they are well versed in and can make the necessary improvements to almost anything to make it competitive. 

So, what's your point??

[Randy Powell]

>>As for what would happen if cottage manufacturers dissapeared - well, F2D as we know it would dissapear.<<

Wow, Isky. Did you forget how to build? How to cut foam?   

[Ted Fancher]

>>free women in the world <<

Free women? Gee, all the ones I know are expensive. I could buy a PA engine a month on what my wife spends on horses.   

Ony one PA, Randy?

Shoot, horses must be a lot less expensive than when #1 daughter was keen on 'em.

Ted

[Randy Powell]

Ted,

Yea, she gets a deal. I should have said one complete setup. Engine, pipe, header and a selection of props. She out today spending another couple of hundred on a vet "checkup". Sheesh!

I keep trying to talk into motorcycles (hey, the just sit there when you're not using them), but so far no deal.