IC or electric for a trainer?

[David_Stack]

I'm aware of Larry Renger's ET-1, but that is a less-traditional configuration with a mid-ship mounted electric motor.

For a more conventional configuration, is an IC engine more likely to survive an 'unplanned arrival', and therefore more appropriate for someone just getting started in the hobby?

Thank you as always,
Dave

[Tim Wescott]

All else being equal, I suspect so.  Alas, control line airplanes tend to hit the turf nose-first, where many RC screwups involve oblique blows, or the wingtips hitting first.

The biggest weakness would be the shaft (which would bend), and the bearings (which might get munged).  Both of these are fairly easily replaceable, but I wouldn't rate that as easy enough for a beginner.

But if you front-mounted an outrunner it would be better than rear-mounted (because the shaft would have better support, closer to the prop).  Go further and front-mount on a carefully designed break-away mount, I think you could get things nearly to parity, or even better.  The mount would have to be designed so that the motor is rigid in normal usage, yet will still snap long before the shaft or bearings are damaged.  You'd also need to design it so that the motor has some room to get driven backwards into the airframe while some wood somewhere broke to absorb the energy that you don't want going into the motor parts.

[Mike Callas]

The electric will be easier to set up and run. 
The IC will handle a crash better. I've dorked both, the IC usually survives with some scrapes. The electric will bend its shaft. Once bent its useless.
Plenty of other pro and cons to debate between IC and E but survivability after a figure 9 goes to the IC.
Of course there are some crashes where nothing is left but the atoms and molecules.
Which is why I say 1 advantage to C/L over R/C is after the crash you only need to walk 60 feet to get to the wreckage.

Mike

[proparc]

Which is why I say 1 advantage to C/L over R/C is after the crash you only need to walk 60 feet to get to the wreckage.

Mike

On the big ships 70 feet! 

[Paul Wescott]

I've seen Larry's trainer fly a few times.  Possibly the best feature is the RC Throttle operated by a helper outside the circle.  A beginner doesn't have to commit to a "full tank" (long flight) or a specific throttle setting.  You can get the littlest kid, or the oldest retread, out there and let them fly two or three slow laps, land the plane, then ask them if they want to take a break or keep going.  Then fly faster and/or longer the second time.  So $20 for the plane, $15-$20 for the motor (hobby peeps), $15 for an ESC, borrow a radio and it's such an easy decision: Electric wins.

Larry R. and Andy B. did the hobby such a great service by designing, prototyping, and producing this design.  Although like many true breakthroughs, it may not be fully appreciated for quite a while.

Paul W.

[Keith Renecle]

Larry's trainer is also a pusher so you won't break the motor either. A lot of thought was put into this design after many years of experience with small planes and also teaching people to fly. It's a great idea and costs peanuts.

Keith R

[Derek Barry]

At Joe Nall last year Mark Weiss had a small electric trainer, I think it was called a Ring Rat. It was crashed over and over but never gave up. He used the same motor all week... I think the prop was held on by a rubber band.

Derek

[Larry Renger]

I don't know whether he is going through with it, but Bob Hunt was planning to build a large size ET-1 for the Nall meet. Is the project on, Bob?

[john e. holliday]

To me the best IC trainer ever kitted was the Little Wizard.  Motor mount used rubber bands.  Lost count how many kids flew the Little Wizard.   But, then also the Ringmaster was my preferred trainer for new comers as I could set the engine just lean enough to get airborne.

[11290]

At Joe Nall last year Mark Weiss had a small electric trainer, I think it was called a Ring Rat. It was crashed over and over but never gave up. He used the same motor all week... I think the prop was held on by a rubber band.

Was this it?  Ring Rat:

http://www.stevensaero.com/StevensAero-RingRat-CL-100-Nostalgic-Electric-Control-Line-Sport-SAK-RRAT100-p-20213.html

[Will Davis]

The model used at joe Nall was the Stevens cl 250 ring rat, great model, very tough, we will have it back for round 2 at Joe Nall 2013

Will

[Tim Wescott]

To contradict myself a bit:

An advantage of 'lectric is that, while it's much easier to damage the motor in a crash, if you get a cheapie motor then it's much less money to replace.  It looks like an electric motor for a 15-sized trainer is going to put you back $20-$25 if you buy from Hobby King: that's a lot less than a new LA 25 from OS.

[Mike Haverly]

The model used at joe Nall was the Stevens cl 250 ring rat, great model, very tough, we will have it back for round 2 at Joe Nall 2013

Will

Here is my Grandson's.  It was crashed once, only damage being Lg through the wing bottom and prop.

[john e. holliday]

How well does the rest of the electronics hold up, like battery and ESC/timer?

[Mike Callas]

How well does the rest of the electronics hold up, like battery and ESC/timer?

John,
If it is a good ol smack the battery will probably have to be neutralized. The ESC and timers are fairly robust.
I still do not see the advantage over IC for a beginner. I've yet to trash an IC motor in a crash, (whittled down for sure) I guess it does happen. But a slight dork with that thin electric shaft and its done.
 
A new Cox 049 is still 40 bucks, a starting batt and fuel is probably another 20 bucks. Our local racing guru Dave Hull keeps an 049 trainer with him when he is at the field. If anybody comes over to see the Stunt or race planes he offers to let them fly his trainer. It is always a big hit with the kids.

A good electric motor is $15 , ESC is $10 to 30, a timer is $15 plus a programmer at $75, batteries $10 each, Connector bullets $10. You will need a lipo charger/balancer $40 to 100. Even if you get a simple timer a basic electric setup can cost from $100 to 200. Then you need a soldering iron, shrink tubing etc. That said, the Ringrat looks promising. A pre packaged electric and a fistful of batteries , might do the trick.

If our beginner likes flying, that starter plane will quickly be set aside for a Ringmaster or Pathfinder. Of course, the entire power train, motor esc and batteries have to be upgraded just like the IC. The cost for these components are more than an LA 25 or 46.

I currently have an electric setup in my Noblarf and love it. It is my weekly trainer and keep it in the car in case I get out of work with time enough to fly. I can set it up to fly in 2 minutes flat. It always starts and runs the same. It takes another 2 minutes to put it away.

I'd rather fly my 4 stroke Pathfinder or EVO36 Vector, but the time it takes to setup, fuel up, start it, clean it up and put away is too much for my limited time.

But, whatever works is great as long as new folks (or our R/C brethren) take up C/L

Mike

[Mike Haverly]

Thank you Mike, you beat me to the punch.  My view is pretty much the same.  Anything will break but we fly mostly over grass for training and I'm pretty sure this stuff will last at least as long as an IC set up and it always starts! 

[Mike Callas]

Thank you Mike, you beat me to the punch.  My view is pretty much the same.  Anything will break but we fly mostly over grass for training and I'm pretty sure this stuff will last at least as long as an IC set up and it always starts! 

Dude,
Electric or IC? It's a minor consideration. What counts is that men like you and Dave Hull take the time to teach others, young and old, to fly C/L. It really is fun and turning on others to it is what matters.

So thank you Mike!

[Tim Wescott]

A good electric motor is $15 , ESC is $10 to 30, a timer is $15 plus a programmer at $75, batteries $10 each, Connector bullets $10. You will need a lipo charger/balancer $40 to 100. Even if you get a simple timer a basic electric setup can cost from $100 to 200. Then you need a soldering iron, shrink tubing etc. That said, the Ringrat looks promising. A pre packaged electric and a fistful of batteries , might do the trick.

I just put together two Reniger ET-1's for my nephews.  The total cost for the power systems was $60 for each plane, and that included a charger, spare battery, and a car radio for a "timer".

[Mike Callas]

I just put together two Reniger ET-1's for my nephews.  The total cost for the power systems was $60 for each plane, and that included a charger, spare battery, and a car radio for a "timer".

Tim,
I went thru the electric forum and checked out the setup and ET-1 thread. I did not see a setup page.
If you have time, and have yet to do so, can you please list the components and suppliers used in your setup??

Thanks

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

I put it in the "List your setup" thread.  I was wrong on the pricing: with a spare battery, it's a bit more than $60.

Here it is, broken down with part numbers:

Turnigy 2S 3S Balance Charger. Direct 110/240v Input (USA Warehouse), TGY-3/24289 = $11.34
ZIPPY Flightmax 800mAh 3S1P 20C (USA Warehouse), Z8003S20C/18636  = $8.00
Hobbyking SS Series 18-20A ESC (USA Warehouse), HK-SS20A/17793  = $7.18
2205C 1400Kv Brushless motor (USA Warehouse), 2205C-1400/26482 = $9.29
Hobby King GT-2 2.4Ghz 2Ch Tx & Rx (USA Warehouse), HK-GT2/15141 = $19.69

That works out to $55.50 with one battery, $63.50 with two.

Granted, these are cheap components -- but for an entry-level plane as a gift to a kid that may only use it once, I figured it'd be about right.