Lost footage from the 2015 NATS

[RC Storick]

[Avaiojet]

I'm wondering why those two guys elected to turn that model over, while starting, so the engine is in the upright position?

Well, it's difficult to really see the construction of the model, so maybe the engine is upright and they elected to invert it for starting?

Then again, maybe the engine is on it's side?

Probably not important as long as it starts.

[Dave_Trible]

Charles you were watching the Classic event.  It was normal 'in the day' to turn them over to get the engine upright to start.  'Strange' would have been to leave it upright.  Many of those cowlings and the short Fox venturi made it impossible to choke the engines.  You gave them a shot in the venturi from your Sullivan rubber fuel bulb and cranked.  On my classic Dolphin I invert to prime then set it back over on the wheels to start.  The older engines weren't as predictable about starting as today's stuff.  You didn't take chances on a mis-start.  You just turned it over.

Dave

[Brett Buck]

I'm wondering why those two guys elected to turn that model over, while starting, so the engine is in the upright position?

    Yeah, those two random guys probably just don't know enough about model airplanes to figure out how.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

Charles you were watching the Classic event.

     It's good footage, but there's no way to convey the degree of difficultly in those conditions. It was bad during Billy's flight, got a little better then went back over the edge right at the end. Billy did a masterful job as expected but Banjock did an absolute clinic on how to fly these airplanes in the wind. If there is any footage of that from the upwind side, people could use it as a training aid. All the compensations were absolutely right and clearly obvious how to do it. I think he ran period engines so he had to do far more obvious compensations than, say, Billy, who had a lot more effective "power".

    Brett

[Mark Scarborough]

Agreed,
I watched all the Classic flights,, ( I was entered and flew)
Dan was pretty impressive in surviving the conditions he was dealt, I waved off my second attempt because I just didnt have the experience to deal with it,,

[Ted Fancher]

Thanks, Sparky.  Enjoyed it a lot...Dan's knee ballet, in particular.

What really brought an immediate grin to my face was watching my life long hero Billy Werwage crank up and head out to the handle at a jog.  First thing that popped into my mind was that it would be something akin to the odds of winning the lottery to guess precisely how many times that scene has been repeated in Bill's storied career.

Ted

[Avaiojet]

   Yeah, those two random guys probably just don't know enough about model airplanes to figure out how.

     Brett

Gee Brett,

You could have identified those two guys, and I never used the word "random."

It's only the 6th of January, are you going to troll me the entire year on your replies to all my Posts?

About my observation.

It appears that I have been mislead over many years, in that, an engine will start easier while upright?

Now I read that this isn't the case. Engines will start easier inverted.

What exactly is the scoop on this?

[Dave_Trible]

The older engines could be flooded pretty easily,  drowning the glow plug when inverted.  Turned upright the plug usually stayed pretty dry.  The newer engine will choke well with a few flips and once you get a feel for how much to choke a newer engine it's pretty routine.  The key here is you have to fly your stuff enough to learn and understand it and that applies to every aspect of stunt.

Dave

[Mark Scarborough]

Gee Brett,

You could have identified those two guys, and I never used the word "random."

It's only the 6th of January, are you going to troll me the entire year on your replies to all my Posts?

About my observation.

It appears that I have been mislead over many years, in that, an engine will start easier while upright?

Now I read that this isn't the case. Engines will start easier inverted.

What exactly is the scoop on this?

Really Charles,,the post prior to Brett's explained it, read before you respond please,,

the engine is in the airframe inverted,, they flip the plane upside down to make the engine upright
are YOU going to continue trolling all year in 2016?
let it go,
get along
and stop with your sideways comments trying to get under peoples skins,, please,, PLEASE,, just try to get along

[Avaiojet]

Really Charles,,the post prior to Brett's explained it, read before you respond please,,

the engine is in the airframe inverted,, they flip the plane upside down to make the engine upright
are YOU going to continue trolling all year in 2016?
let it go,
get along
and stop with your sideways comments trying to get under peoples skins,, please,, PLEASE,, just try to get along

I'm all for getting along Mark, have been since the first day I entered the "Forums."

I also know all about sidways comments and replies, I've had more of it than anyone.

OK! Now that we are all friends, can we talk about starting engines and the position the engine should be in for "better" or "easier" starting results?

Which is it, upright or inverted?

I'll say it carved in text. "They start easier upright."

Now if I'm wrong about this, just explain why.

What's the big deal? Besides, we're all friends now and I hope it stays that way.

Upright or inverted?

Charles

[Mark Scarborough]

Charles you were watching the Classic event.  It was normal 'in the day' to turn them over to get the engine upright to start.  'Strange' would have been to leave it upright.  Many of those cowlings and the short Fox venturi made it impossible to choke the engines.  You gave them a shot in the venturi from your Sullivan rubber fuel bulb and cranked.  On my classic Dolphin I invert to prime then set it back over on the wheels to start.  The older engines weren't as predictable about starting as today's stuff.  You didn't take chances on a mis-start.  You just turned it over.

Dave

as I said, its already answered in this post, right before the one you poked Brett about

[Bill Morell]

And the beat goes on.........

[Avaiojet]

And the beat goes on.........

as I said, its already answered in this post, right before the one you poked Brett about

Mark,

Yes, I seen that, just before the Post Brett could have left out.

Well, then that answers it.

It's easier to start an engine when it's "upright."

Is this agreed upon or not?

[Chris_Rud]

   Yeah, those two random guys probably just don't know enough about model airplanes to figure out how.

     Brett

nice

[Dan McEntee]

Mark,

Yes, I seen that, just before the Post Brett could have left out.

Well, then that answers it.

It's easier to start an engine when it's "upright."

Is this agreed upon or not?

   I'm just shocked and amazed that someone of your vast (alleged) experience as a "modeler" going all the way back to your youth would even have to ask the question! With all those models you say you built as a youngster, I just can't believe you didn't fly them? Because if you flew them, you would have experienced the condition that occurs when you feel the need to invert the model to start it.You would know it depends on a lot of things, like weather and temperature. You would know that when it's cool out and it takes more fuel to start the engine and with the model upright and engine inverted, gravity takes affect and some falls out the venturi, so you turn the model over so all the choke or prime goes in the engine. You would also have known all the things that Dave pointed out out from experience.  You would know that it used to be in competition, that you got a 5 point bonus for getting the engine started and model in the air in under a minute, so you got real familiar with what it took to start you engine because if you used an electric starter you did not get the 5 point bonus and you took every action possible to ensure a one flip start..  Yes, I am shocked and amazed!
     Type at you  later,
    Dan McEntee

[Daniel_Munro]

Great video. Thankful for posting.

Damn there were some beautifully finished planes in there.

Dan.

[Brett Buck]

nice

   Sometimes I just can't help myself.

     Brett

   

[Avaiojet]

   I'm just shocked and amazed that someone of your vast (alleged) experience as a "modeler" going all the way back to your youth would even have to ask the question! With all those models you say you built as a youngster, I just can't believe you didn't fly them? Because if you flew them, you would have experienced the condition that occurs when you feel the need to invert the model to start it.You would know it depends on a lot of things, like weather and temperature. You would know that when it's cool out and it takes more fuel to start the engine and with the model upright and engine inverted, gravity takes affect and some falls out the venturi, so you turn the model over so all the choke or prime goes in the engine. You would also have known all the things that Dave pointed out out from experience.  You would know that it used to be in competition, that you got a 5 point bonus for getting the engine started and model in the air in under a minute, so you got real familiar with what it took to start you engine because if you used an electric starter you did not get the 5 point bonus and you took every action possible to ensure a one flip start..  Yes, I am shocked and amazed!
     Type at you  later,
    Dan McEntee

Gee Dan,

I'm shocked also, and I do have years of experience with those Rossi's and all in my pattern ships. Yes, I flew them and started engines. Seeing you mentioned it, I put in more time than what it was worth. Time away from family and other important things. I wish I had the time back to use differently.

Nuff of that, but let me explain.

Sure, myself and many others HAVE turned models over to start them, plenty of times, with the engine upright instead of inverted, for one reason or another because they wouldn't start. Even in R/C. Actually made for easier starting, or in some cases solved a stubborn engine starting issue.

Engine upright was always the cure! ENGINE UPRIGHT WAS ALWAYS THE CURE.

So I thought!

Then, here comes this Thread on engines. "Inverted engine vs. side-mounted or upright."
 
So I replied and here's what I said,

"Looks prettier, possibly, but my guess is they are not as easy to start.

Is this why you see stunt ships flipped over in the hands of a holder while the engine is being started by another person?"

Then another reply came from Lauri Malila, who made a statement that had me thinking about engine starting all over again.

Here's what Lauri Malila said.
 
"But to the original question, cylinder up is maybe the most difficult for starting. L"

Well, you can imagine, with that said and who said it, now I'm not even sure anymore?

Here's the link to that Thread.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/engine-set-up-tips/inverted-engine-vs-side-mounted-or-upright/msg431582/#msg431582

Brings us to Robert's video and I just asked to get other input.

Is there a definitive answer to this?

I don't belive anyone responded after Lauri's statement?

[RC Storick]

I don't belive anyone responded after Lauri's statement?

That's Wesley Dick and he has been around sense the 50tys That was the sure way to start a fox and old habits die hard. Now I hope I don't have to lock my own thread. I don't know what engine the plane has in it.

[Mike Keville]

Oh, good grief!!!   

[Steve Fitton]

Dan taking a knee during the overheads does not impress me.  The time he had to fly the overheads flat on his back at the Philly contest did impress me.

[Tony Drago]

I'll settle for a K&B Green head with the exhaust port pointed up.

[RC Storick]

[John Leidle]

   I want to thank Robert for posting this, it shows me getting anxious & nearly pulled the plane out of Dave's hands as he held it to launch. It was the second time I was careless at the contest the first time an observer noted that I shouldn't flip the prop with out a holder , the point here is to remind all that lots of injuries happed at the Nats.
   By the way while Dave held my plane you cant see how windy it was for Classic. Second round was a bit strong,,,my Hound nearly got away from me .
   John L.

[john e. holliday]

When a contestant gets to practice, they get to know their equipment.  I don't hesitate to turn a plane over with an inverted engine as I don't want to waste the judges time.

Now Robert, does Schaefer still have the shop on Virginia Street if I remember right or is this it.  It was back in the 70's  when I visited his shop.  Used to drive to Buder on weekends while in school.   Time goes so fast now.

[RC Storick]

When a contestant gets to practice, they get to know their equipment.  I don't hesitate to turn a plane over with an inverted engine as I don't want to waste the judges time.

Now Robert, does Schaefer still have the shop on Virginia Street if I remember right or is this it.  It was back in the 70's  when I visited his shop.  Used to drive to Buder on weekends while in school.   Time goes so fast now.

No that shop closed and moved to Gravois AV. and now is a beads store mostly.

[Frank Imbriaco]

 All this talk has me thinking about my late friend and fellow modeler, John Ross of NJ.  He wasn't known as a stunt flyer, but flew the pattern and did extremely well in racing events. When pitting for me during the startup, he could take the plane from inverted to upright all in one quick motion. I would need the arms of an octopus to do it as well. I always got tangled with my body for some stupid reason. Electric has given me some level of avoiding myself . lol

[Dan McEntee]

When a contestant gets to practice, they get to know their equipment.  I don't hesitate to turn a plane over with an inverted engine as I don't want to waste the judges time.

Now Robert, does Schaefer still have the shop on Virginia Street if I remember right or is this it.  It was back in the 70's  when I visited his shop.  Used to drive to Buder on weekends while in school.   Time goes so fast now.

  The store at Virginia and Merimac in south st. Louis closed when Art Sr. wanted to retire. The store on Gravois had been built by then for Art Jr. to operate. The Virginia Ave store had been around for a LOOOOOOONG time, like 60  to 65 years or something. Art Sr's dad started the business in a small shop across and up the street, I think Art Sr. told me. My Mom said she used to go to Schaefer's as a teenager. My Grandmother lived her final days out near there and when my Mom made trips to look in on her, my brother Jim and I used to walk up Virginia Ave. to the shop and drool over all the models hanging and all the kits. Art was always a real nice guy to us as kids.  As they had the closing sale at the old store, models were moved out to the Gravois location. I went by the old store several times and picked up some good deals on new engines, bought them out of stunt tanks, and got to talk nostalgia with Art Sr. on several occasions. Found out that he knew my Uncle Bud (on my Mom's side of the family well and they belonged to the same VFW ,lodge, or something similar. My cousin Joe was a member of the Yellow Jackets model club and you can see the logo that hung on the speed circle at Buder Park for a couple of FAI team Trials, and for other big contests.
He had a stash of old stuff in storage in that building somewhere and was selling it off on eBay. I did get a good deal on a Dinky kit, that's the smaller version of the Box Car Chief and he sold me the rubber powered Guillow's Fokker D-7 that was hanging in the shop since I was about ten years old. All the old models Sparky shows were hanging at the old shop. Several NATS winners and record holders in racing and speed. I worked for 35 years at the competition out in St. Charles, MO but will always stop into Schaefer's when near by just to look around. One final story. Art Schaefer told me he got the Formula S from a guy who said Jim Kostecky gave it to him after the team trials that was held that that year (I'm thinking '67 ??)  This guy in turn takes it into Art' shop to show it to him, and the guy knows nothing about C/L stunt, so in an effort to save the model, Art swapped him some used R/C equipment for it. It has been hanging in either store since then and I believe he had turned down numerous offers to buy the model.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dennis Adamisin]

That's Wesley Dick and he has been around sense the 50tys That was the sure way to start a fox and old habits die hard. Now I hope I don't have to lock my own thread. I don't know what engine the plane has in it.

I fly with Wes all the time and that's me in the flip&twirl ballet to get him started & launched; no big deal.  DEFINITIELY not old-timers habits.  Most of the time we start his stuff on the feet...

[Dennis Adamisin]

   Yeah, those two random guys probably just don't know enough about model airplanes to figure out how.

     Brett

HEY, I resemble that remark!

[Brett Buck]

HEY, I resemble that remark!

   Don't worry, you'll figure it out eventually.

    Brett

[Garf]

I have been at this for over 40 years. I used to turn the model over to start in earlier times. Then I learned how to start engines. I haven't turned a model over to start in over 10 years. You need a single jet standard spraybar so that when you choke the engine, the fuel shoots directly into the crank port. A single choke usually will result in an immediate start. This works even with a Fox Stunt with muffler. This is proven on a NoblARF.

[Dennis Adamisin]

   Don't worry, you'll figure it out eventually.

    Brett

Actually I kinda went nuclear on the starting problem - now getting 1-click starts upright or inverted...