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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Paul Taylor on June 03, 2024, 08:47:06 PM
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Did not want to hi-jack another thread but read Brett’s comment about skill classes and how they are broken. I tend to agree.
I would agree something needs to change. Beginner is not really the full pattern. So not really beginners.
Then once pilots get comfortable in intermediate and hits the podium they move to advance. That puts them in a group that has some flyers that some pilots should move up but not quite ready to fly against the experts, so the top advance pilots hang back. They have no place to move up.
More skill classes are needed. Not sure how or who would change it.
Thoughts???
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I think we should keep everything the same except eliminate "Advanced". That way there would be a stark comparision between people that belong in Intermediate and people that should move up. Having too many classes is just a celebration of mediocrity.
MM 8)
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I agree on perhaps not having a beginners pattern. FLy as much of the real pattern as you can. I was expert level when I first joined PAMPA so I have never had the experience of moving between classes. When I came back after a layout I was offered to re-enter at Advanced but decided against. In the old system when you aged up it was likely that you would not see the podium again for a long time. The class system helped that some but the gap between winning in Advanced and winning in Expert is so large that you are right back where you were as a Senior moving to Open in the 60's. I agree with Brett that the system is broken but so would whatever you replace it with be in a couple of years. Let it be.
ken
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Too many classes now. S?P
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Did not want to hi-jack another thread but read Brett’s comment about skill classes and how they are broken. I tend to agree.
I would agree something needs to change. Beginner is not really the full pattern. So not really beginners.
Then once pilots get comfortable in intermediate and hits the podium they move to advance. That puts them in a group that has some flyers that some pilots should move up but not quite ready to fly against the experts, so the top advance pilots hang back. They have no place to move up.
More skill classes are needed. Not sure how or who would change it.
Thoughts???
Thanks for taking is seriously instead of immediately launching into accusations about my motives!
I have laid out my notion in great detail before, but several key points:
Look at contest entries - few/no beginners, one or two intermediates, 5-10 advanced, and 25 experts. Almost everyone agrees there are already enough/too many skill classes, and most contests are combining Beg/Int or doing something to prevent having to buy trophies that just go to waste when no one enters
A decent number of new people are still showing up - but in many cases, *if they have good advice and good equipment (that comes from the good advice)*, they learn fast enough that before a contest comes around, they are flying at what would fall into the Advanced category, and are competitive with other Advanced fliers right off the bat. In not too long, they starting winning Advanced and get bumped up to Expert - and then they get to fly against David/Paul/Brett ever other weekend.
The corollary is that people do who don't have good equipment and/or ignore or have questionable advice might have been struggling for years and not getting any better and the first group blows past them right from the start
There is a huge range of skill stacked up in Expert, from repeated NATS qualifiers and World Champions, to people who couldn't fly a pattern a year and a half ago.
So we have wound up with two almost unused classes, and a huge range all in one class, which is still growing.
The original idea was to split the field to give meaningful competition to the guys in 25th place in Open by splitting the field. What we have now is more-or-less one class that covers most people and a class that is a combination of guys struggling for decades with ancient techniques, and guys with 6 months experience and modern equipment who quickly "skill out" and move to Expert. At that point, it is either "adopt it as a way of life" to continue to get better, or, much more often, get stomped by World Champs and multiple NATs winners for a few years, and find something else to do.
As a thought experiment, take the entire stunt skill class entries, put them together, and then just split them into either 3 or 4. That more-or-less restores the original idea. The problem is that some guys were flying Expert before are now in the new Intermediate. That's a hard pill to swallow.
As before, I am not going to pursue it any further because not enough people care - but I think that a plan to "split the field" into maybe 3 about equally-spaced groups should probably be the goal, along with some way of softening the blow for people "going backwards". Almost no one would want or tolerate even more classes, we already have 4, 2 of which are barely used - along with Classic, OTS, Super 70's, "Rolling cutoff classic"*, Profile (sometimes in two classes), too.
The class that obviously sticks out is Beginner - almost completely unused, not comparable to the other classes, and quickly passed over by anyone with good help available. It seems to exist primarily to accommodate people who use ancient equipment and/or don't have enough local help to steer them away from ancient brutally difficult approaches. That's why you had people slowly advancing through all 4 classes back in the day, a year or more per class - because the airplanes were so difficult to fly.
Just observations and things I think should be considered, in the unlikely even anyone wants to take up this effort.
Brett
*with a current cutoff in *1994* - meaning you can fly the most successful and dominant airplane/engine combination of all time - the Impact/40VF; in the right hands far, far better than the vast majority of current airplanes
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Good subject
I’ve always favored leaving it as is because I want to see how I compare with others in the expert group. I don’t care about a trophy but pay attention to how I do against those at my skill level. I am now leaning towards the benefits of breaking up the current expert category.
The fact of life in today’s stunt world is:
1. Getting capable and willing judges has become excruciatingly difficult.
2. There are fewer and fewer stunt contests each year.
Many of us have sat out contests recently in order to judge. Breaking the current group of folks who enter the expert category into two or three groups would help ease the judge famine by increasing the number of judge candidates amongst the ranks of the current expert contestants.
Regarding any increase in the cost of trophies, give me a $2 paper certificate and I’m happy.
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Brett,
You are making very clear observations that have been going on for quite some time. I remember getting the move up nudge after one year of advanced. I won every advanced local contest I attended that year. Granted in my area at that time there were about 3 guys, including me, in that class. Was I ready to move up? Probably not. But the score board said different. The rest, nats winners and world team guys and overall stunt killers were all flying in expert. I moved up and got destroyed for a long while. My scores were good in advanced and looked like it would correlate over the expert but once in that group it was not the case. Assessing one's skill and placing yourself where you really belong is a hard thing to do for many reasons.
I think what has caused this bottleneck so to speak is the pressure to "move up". Win a few and you get pushed out. If you don't move up you get the sand bagging moniker hung around your neck. What is the rush to move up?
Another problem we suffer from is attendance. The Dallas June contest is coming and I dont think many people will be there. Maybe 6-7 guys in Expert. If you move half down its just a weekend fly. And usually we are missing flyers who would add to the fray due to judging duties. I would be bummed to travel a long way to fly in a big contest and not get to fly against the top guys of the area because they are judging. But that's part of the deal now.
With the pattern the same across all classes this problem will never go away. If the pattern for Expert was different and more difficult it would keep medium and lower skilled "experts" in advanced where they can flourish. Lately I have been flying the outside triangle flat on the bottom and that scares me, :). It just messes with my brain. Maneuvers like that where a plane can be easily lost may help the bottleneck. Otherwise we move on with what we got and enjoy our time together in this cool thing call CLPA.
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MAGA - Make Advanced Great Again!
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I’m afraid breaking us up into more classes in many places is shooting yourself in the foot. Other than maybe the east and west coasts there aren’t enough fliers to divide. Many Midwest contests these days may have no more than 6-10 TOTAL entries. If you divide these you will either have one or two entries in some events OR the CD will just combine classes like they do sometimes anyway. As usual I’ll have the least popular opinion- I came up in our sport BEFORE any skill classes- just age classes. I wouldn’t have wanted it any other way. Challenge is a good teacher…..
Dave
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Sometime back I remember one contest where those that had flown and placed at the NATS were put into a Masters class..I think it had 5 entries. H^^
Wes just informed me this is still used at the FCM contests at Muncie. D>K
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I had did a few graphs of recent Nats placements to research some concerns about local experts flying in advanced at the Nats. I could go further into depth of why i moved to expert locally but...... Anyway I found that as you move up the gap gets bigger between the skill levels. I didn't do the 23 Nats but could if you guys find this relevant.
Tom
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Thought just hit me, why not just go with the AMA age devisions? S?P
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Thought just hit me, why not just go with the AMA age devisions? S?P
;D ;D ;D
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I would agree something needs to change. Beginner is not really the full pattern. So not really beginners.
Then once pilots get comfortable in intermediate and hits the podium they move to advance. That puts them in a group that has some flyers that some pilots should move up but not quite ready to fly against the experts, so the top advance pilots hang back. They have no place to move up.
More skill classes are needed. Not sure how or who would change it.
Thoughts???
The beginner pattern is not enough easier (less difficult) than the full pattern to shake a stick at. If you can't do the full pattern you probably can't do the beginner either. I entered my first contest at age 14 and did the full pattern. I got a prize in the Junior age group.
In any sport you haven't really won anything unless you enter the top class and win.
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This is an entirely different situation today than it was back when the skill classes were developed. A resurgence in interest in C/L stunt by former pilots and a whole new batch of newcomers happened at the same time. A typical beginner had to learn so much to get to the top pedestal at the NATS, and the retread flyers has some new technology to adapt to, along with some rules changes. A typical regional contest may have had 10 to 15 entrants in beginner and intermediate, maybe a few less in Advanced and fewer yet in Expert. I started out at a local contest here in St. Louis at Buder Park in June of 1987 and it took me two models to get through the two official flights. I had gotten to the point where I could do the beginner pattern, but my only contest experience was with R/C sailplanes and free flight models. Luckily , Norm Whittle was there and gave me a pointer or two. Norm was actually in the sailplane club I was a member of, and i had no idea of his back ground in stunt, and he was in the Air Force at the time and stationed at Scott AFB across the river. Bill Calkins helped me out quite a bit that day also. Jim Lee was the first to really impress me with what bottoms should be at that same event!! That was one thing I noticed right away, no shortage of helps and advice, and that encouraged me to keep at it. Lots of brotherhood and camaraderie.
As the years went by, I improved and so did everyone else. It took me 17 years to go from my first contest in beginner to when I won my first contest as an expert. I got a lot of help and gave out a lot of help also along the way. That was the main thing I liked about the event. There were a few years at the SIG contest where the beginner entries numbered up[ around 30!! Only time in a day for one round!! As time went on everyone moved up at their own pace, or they dropped out of the event. I wonder where all those people went off to? I used to be able to fly 6 or 8 contests a year here in the Midwest and it was pretty much the same crowd with a few new faces depending on where i went. But again, time marches on and as it did, entries dropped, and contests started to drop from the calendar with ageing members, retirements, members passing away, and lack of manpower being the critical reason. I noticed along the way also that the beginner ranks got very thin. The last contest that SIG held in 2012 was lightly attended and some of us could see the writing on the wall at that point. Some of the guys I flew against in beginner were there in Advanced or Expert but Beginner and Intermediate was lacking. No new blood coming into the hobby. One of the last contest I flew in that I remember was at Paducah, KY at what was Allen Brickhaus' contest. There were little to no entries in Beginner or Intermediate, and a fair number in Advanced, with 16 in Expert. I took some magazines and such to give to somebody there, so didn't have room for a good model to fly in Expert, plus Mark Hughes', airplane, so I just took a Ringmaster to fly in OTS and Classic and a beat up Sakitumi that I had traded some one for, but is a very good flying airplane and I had it trimmed about as well as anything I had ever flown. Expert had some heavy hitters in it like Eric Taylor, Kenny Stevens, Tom Dixon, Jim Lee, Matt Neumann and several others. It was a nice, stunt heaven day and I had my head screwed on right and was seeing things well. I had an early flight in both rounds, and put up flights in the 560 point range, flying in front of Jim Lynch and Charlie Reeves, so no gimmes being handed out that day. That's the highest score I have ever received. I felt I had flown about as good as I had ever done that day, so just sat back to see how it would stand up. When the dust settled, I ended up in 13th place out of 16, but was only 9 points off the podium!! That's the kind of environment that any new comers that do come along these day will be working to over come!! Jumping right in at the Advanced level may be discouraging to some, and justifiably so.
When I came up through the ranks, a guy had to lean how to build, finish, learn how to operate and maintain engines, trim a model for best performance which included getting the best engine run with the best props, fuel and plugs available. The skill levels helped with that because you could share your experiences with your peers, guys flying at your level. Plenty of experts around to ask for help also. We had a lot available to us also in the way of materials and product support. Lots of new engines and kits available, new glues, techniques and such to learn and adapt to. This all fit in well with the Builder of The Model rule and another reason for me to stick with the vent. ARFs came along and helped people get in the air faster and helped some of us that didn't have much time to build stay in the game. I also bought models from people and estates. And now, this far down the line, it may be that the ARF supply train may be drying up due to economic reasons. The BOM survived all of this and I am glad about that.
I don't think there is any reason to expand the skill levels, because there is no one to fill them!! Even fewer beginners around today. One thing affecting the hobby today is cost and availability of kits and supplies at reasonable prices. Anyone that I have talked to that inquired about getting started seems to be immediately turned off by what it involves to get started from scratch. There are tons of used equipment out there. Engines, kits, used models and such, but lots of other once common items are not. I know what I am looking for or looking at when I see an add, but the newcomer will not. The level of activity looks to me to be pretty regional across the country. It ranges from a fair amount of activity to none at all!! It's really hard to predict where things may go from here in the future but looks for sure to be that only the strong will survive. Money is beyond tight!! I'm glad I accumulated and hoarded some stuff to keep me going but I have hardly cornered the markets. The concept of advising and providing newcomers with the most modern equipment to push them along right into Advanced just may not be practical. The main obvious reason is expense and availability that I mention before. Electric is supposed to be filling some of that void, but there are some people out that there can't put the batteries in their flash light correctly. Electric has it's pluses and minuses just like I/C models do and those learning curves will still be up to the newcomer to navigate. That will depend on who the newcomer is, an adult, teenager, of 10 year old kid. In the past, we have had all of those. in today's world, maybe not. people these days are just not interested in developing any type of manual skills, and even in the use of ARFS it will require thinking your way through something, soldering, gluing, building up small assemblies and such. The other aspect that this may affect is the BOM rule itself. Todays' mentality for the most part is still instant gratification. Buy it today, fly it tomorrow!! . Would that big bank account still get some one to Final Five at the NATS?? Do today's potential participants even have any interest in taking things that far?? Could we be looking at the end of the BOM, just to get some entrants??
In my opinion there is so much more involved that complicates things today. Peoples ages, general interests, other trends, and so much more. I would never have thought that I would have such a hard time finding and buying small items like we do now. I have 50 years of modeling experience that helps me figure out a way around somethings, but some road blocks still exist. Sonic Tronics still does not show their R/C long plug in stock and the last ones available were $12.99. I finally solved my fuel issue for now, but who knows what the future brings. Kit availability and balsa prices and availability will definitely keep some out of the hobby. It's just a fact of life that keeping food on the table, a roof over their heads, and at least one car running and reliable is a major effort and priority for many people today. There could still be some bad times ahead for everyone.
What's the main thing lacking in getting new blood? Finding anyone that is simply an aviation enthusiast, airplane nut , airplane geek, how ever you want to put it. I still think that has to be something inside a person, whether they know it or not. Many of us came running if we thought we heard an engine running somewhere. I live near Lambert Airport still by choice, because I like seeing any kind of airplane fly over, and even that traffic has really fallen off from what it once was. It's down right quiet over there, unless Boeing has some F/A-18s or F-15 EXs to test. Flying in general just does not seem to hold the same allure or romance that it once did for people. It's not only model aviation feeling that lack of acceptance. General aviation is feeling it also in a lot of ways, some very similar to what modeling is. One of those factors is continued and growing Government interference in our having fun. "Times, they are a changing" like Dylan said in the song but I don't think any of it is for the better!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Apparently I'm a stagnant advanced flier. I'm fine with the program in my area because I'm competitive against other guys. When I was in intermediate for a year or two, there was sometimes only one other intermediate flier. All of my efforts were aimed at beating him, so then I figured I could move up. I've been advanced for about three years now. All my efforts now are aimed at moving my equipment to the next level so I can beat the guy above me. Then I figure I'll move to expert.
But, classic is often overlooked in these discussions. I love VSC. From everyone who doesn't go anymore, it sounds like they all loved it too. I really enjoy that one time a year I get to fly against the best, or the best there is that show up.
But, at local contests, medium experts can win classic, or at least get trophies. I even get trophies in classic. So, there should be no complaining about medium experts never getting a trophy anymore.
If everything were open, and then there was beginner, I'd be fine with that. You pick your friends and you try to beat them. Maybe it is that battle for 10th place against your pal.
I have also said, that if you get 20 experts at your contest, why not have awards to 5th place if people are worried about the lack of hardware? Nats goes all the way to 10th as I recall. But, I don't think people not winning trophies is the issue. It's just about having someone to compete against. Fly classic.
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Just my ten cents worth ,
Say ' beginner ' they chose say six maneuvres from the full pattern . any six . Or get scored ' best six ' . like the olde Grand Prix , best 8 results or whatever it was .
A ' open ' freestyle or make a list , could get a out of the rut whos the most daring exotic and something , for a ' challenge ' event . where they gotta tr'n outdo , but ' best plane ' might not be a good idea , for this .
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Thought just hit me, why not just go with the AMA age devisions? S?P
Which really means - only one class, Open, since there aren't enough Juniors or Seniors (AMA seniors...) to both figuring out how to divide them up.
Dave is absolutely right, with 6 entries the entire notion of skill classes is absurd, and pointless.
Brett
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The Skill class idea did wonders for the survival and growth of our Sport, PA. As time goes by and age takes its toll on all of us, just weight you hot shots will get there too!, we just plain are not as capable physiologically speaking. Verito, double vision, back pain and stiffening may come to all of us. The question is would you rather not have old folks like me around or should I /we simply not show up any more? As for me I'd rather fly in a less demanding class and be amongst my many old friends of many years be they Expert or Advanced rather than sit home and atrophy further. Think about it if we are lucky enough we all will get old sooner or later! This from an 86 year old who is still able to fly something which looks like the PA pattern and also help coach other flyers no matter what skill class they are to become better.
Phil Spillman
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Eliminate Beginner and have ONE "Fun Fly/ Take Advice" Group for all abilities that begins AFTER the judging ceases for competitors . It would bring in some welcome revenue and there are always a few top level guys hanging around waiting for the trophy announcements (and after) who will take time to watch some or all " Fun Flyer/ Take Advice" participants and give them their .02 without a score card. That would help ease the burden clubs have with obtaining judges.
There are many sport flyers who sorta of know the pattern but don't necessarily want to go through with judging for whatever reason. We all know of such a guy. Whether it's because they don't want to engage in a rigorous practice regimen, family obligations or have other interests that take up their time. These people just might fill a void and fluff up the meet with less serious or able" participants". The goal here is to of get them out to the meet.
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Interesting thought Phil. For example professional golf has a Sr Tour available for players over a certain age.
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Interesting thought Phil. For example professional golf has a Sr Tour available for players over a certain age.
All we would have to do is add "er" to "Old Time" or have the term "Classic" refer to the pilot. Simple changes and the Expert Class is cut by 2/3. I had better add LL~ LL~ LL~ or some would take me seriously.
Ken
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Not to hijack it too bad, but...Ken, assuming the weather holds, I'm going to try to make it out to the contest Sat/Sun and fly in my 1st contest in 20 years. All I have ready to go is my un-flown Super Clown e-ARF, so that's what I'll use. I have others waiting in the wings, but that's what is currently ready - don't laugh too hard, please. LL~
Steve
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Not to hijack it too bad, but...Ken, assuming the weather holds, I'm going to try to make it out to the contest Sat/Sun and fly in my 1st contest in 20 years. All I have ready to go is my un-flown Super Clown e-ARF, so that's what I'll use. I have others waiting in the wings, but that's what is currently ready - don't laugh too hard, please. LL~
Steve
But does it have a Canard? LL~ I am hoping to be there. Both my first flight and first contest in 30 years was the Gieseke back in 2017 with an unflown Nobler ARF. It was a disaster. Plane was so out of trim on Saturday for Classic as to be unflyable. Got it semi-flyable by Sunday but had to abort when the engine reminded me how much I suck at setting needle valves. Same plane that flaked out on you a year later when I electrified it.
ken
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I think some planes are just simply cursed. Never able to get into trim or get a decent engine run, no matter the engine or who is flying/trimming.
Steve
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> Look at contest entries - few/no beginners, one or two intermediates, 5-10 advanced, and 25 experts.
This may be true in some regions. However, at Brodak's today, profile stunt broke down as 6, 4, 15, 9.
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> Look at contest entries - few/no beginners, one or two intermediates, 5-10 advanced, and 25 experts.
This may be true in some regions. However, at Brodak's today, profile stunt broke down as 6, 4, 15, 9.
We haven't seen that many entries in all of the stunt classes here since the 70's. Maybe we need two sets of classes. PAMPA as we have it now or modified and "whatever the CD says it is" for the rest of us. We held the Gieseke Memorial yesterday in Dallas. I could not attend but from what I got texted to me was barely enough pilots for the awards. Granted the level of competition was 1st class but SMALL. Having more classes would really hurt us. What would help is lower gas prices!
Ken
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We haven't seen that many entries in all of the stunt classes here since the 70's. Maybe we need two sets of classes. PAMPA as we have it now or modified and "whatever the CD says it is" for the rest of us. We held the Gieseke Memorial yesterday in Dallas. I could not attend but from what I got texted to me was barely enough pilots for the awards. Granted the level of competition was 1st class but SMALL. Having more classes would really hurt us. What would help is lower gas prices!
Ken
Some of that could be related to Brodaks starting today, and it being held on the weekend after Memorial Day.
Steve
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What would help is lower gas prices!
Ken
A big "AMEN"!
Cheers, Jerry
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The only thing that really irks me is when combat fliers decide to fly some stunt and enter beginner. I call BS on that. IMO, anybody who can fly inverted should enter Intermediate at the minimum. All the rest of the pattern is just some combination of loops. What combat flier can't do a wingover or loop?
I think that there are a lot of fliers who are mired in Advanced for years because they just don't have the right circumstances to practice more. Whether it's family obligations, work, work travel, no place to build, not enough $ to buy a quality airplane, no decent place to fly, etc. But if you eliminate Advanced, will you risk losing those guys who come out and fly, support the club's contest and maybe also judge Expert? As we all age, I think there will be some of us moving down a notch, so don't take Advanced away from us geezers. I'll be 79 in 8 more days, so any gifts should be shipped pretty soon! LL~ Steve
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My biggest problem with the skill classes is judges who 'bracket' scores based on the 'class' they are judging. Rather than scoring maneuvers based on what they see, they keep their maneuver scores inside a 'bracket' they know the pilot is in rather than a raw score. Remember an intermediate pilot is capable of flying a 40 point maneuver and an Expert pilot is capable of a 10 point maneuver.
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The only thing that really irks me is when combat fliers decide to fly some stunt and enter beginner. I call BS on that. IMO, anybody who can fly inverted should enter Intermediate at the minimum. All the rest of the pattern is just some combination of loops. What combat flier can't do a wingover or loop?
I think that there are a lot of fliers who are mired in Advanced for years because they just don't have the right circumstances to practice more. Whether it's family obligations, work, work travel, no place to build, not enough $ to buy a quality airplane, no decent place to fly, etc.
BTW, in no way am I or anyone criticizing anyone who has other priorities, practical limitations, or isn't interested in competition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, who are we to say there is "right way" to approach modeling. I actually don't even necessarily recommend making it a way of life or compromising anything important to be competitive. There are some people who have done that, with very mixed results on their real lives - some of them, greatly to their own detriment. It is incredibly easy to lose perspective.
But, if you do want to pursue it to some degree, there is certainly a lot of assistance available and while they may not an unequivocally "wrong" way to go about it, there are certainly a wide range of "worse/harder/longer" or "better/easier/shorter" ways.
The skill class discussion in particular is concerned with whether or not skill classes serve a purpose anymore. They are certainly not functioning as intended nor as they did for the first 40ish years of PAMPA (and the 30 years before in WAM). What are we trying to accomplish? Does it still make sense as describe, or should we do something different? In a lot of places, local activity seems to have dropped to nearly nothing, is it still important to divide up the tiny entry into micro-segments? Particularly in the light of the vastly better knowledge and equipment that allows someone who is diligent about it jump from rank beginner to NATs qualifers in a few seasons?
Again, I don't care that much, it has no effect on me, but I can see that is it not working, or at least working drastically differently than it used to.
Brett
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My biggest problem with the skill classes is judges who 'bracket' scores based on the 'class' they are judging. Rather than scoring maneuvers based on what they see, they keep their maneuver scores inside a 'bracket' they know the pilot is in rather than a raw score. Remember an intermediate pilot is capable of flying a 40 point maneuver and an Expert pilot is capable of a 10 point maneuver.
Yes, that is probably the worst of judging sins - aside from intentionally rigging it - and has a dramatically ill effect on the results.
Brett
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What would be the problem in not having "skill classes"?
Perhaps a few age categories would make sense: Junior, Senior, Super Senior?
If you cannot fly a particular manoeuver, don't fly it. Take a zero score for it. Then you can compare standings between the winner and yourself.
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What would be the problem in not having "skill classes"?
Perhaps a few age categories would make sense: Junior, Senior, Super Senior?
If you cannot fly a particular manoeuver, don't fly it. Take a zero score for it. Then you can compare standings between the winner and yourself.
+1. They was a group working on a 'Super Senior' pattern removing some of the over head maneuvers etc. To me that might have more purpose than skill classes these days. Not sure what happened to the idea.......Mr. A?
Dave
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Skill classes saved stunt. The old age brackets held back many from trying stunt. The skill classes at least let people who were older than 21 but never flew CL stunt try competition against those who were also just learning the pattern. The objective is to have fun and participation, but we all like to think we have a chance, skill classes do that.
Best, DennisT
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Here is the conundrum. With a large contest we need more classes and can draw judges from other classes (The best judge I ever knew could not fly the pattern). With a small contest, like our local contests, you are lucky to have enough judges period and rarely do we have one where some local experts do not get to fly. For me, judging was a tremendous learning experience, especially if you can judge world class fliers. I think part of the answer to local competition is to involve the less experienced fliers, even non fliers and interested spouses in judging.
Ken
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I understand the problem with not enough Judges and/or participants to justify so many different skill classes - especially at local events. I also understand how hard it is for someone like me who did not learn to fly control line (or even know that it existed) until I was 51 years old. If I had been lucky enough to have the chance to learn to fly when I was younger, I might have had a better chance of learning the full stunt pattern (at least well enough to attempt it). Whether we like it or not, our physical ability and reflexes decline as we age. I learned how to ride a bicycle when I was a kid, so even if I didn't ride a bike for many years it would not take me more than a few seconds to remember how to balance properly and steer. My muscles remember how to do it. I have been trying to learn to fly stunt for many years, and I can finally do most of the basic flight pattern but am still struggling with doing proper 90 degree wingovers (regular not reverse) and a single inside loop. If I had to attempt a full stunt pattern in order to enter a contest, I would not be able to do anything except take off, fly level and land. I could do a regular wingover, but I certainly would not be able to do a reverse wingover. If I am lucky, I can do one inside loop, but trying to do 3 consecutive inside loops would more than likely result in a crash with a broken model. My suggestion would be to allow beginners to participate but have them fly either the basic flight pattern or the beginner pattern with the same judges in the same circles as the more advanced and expert flyers. I am sure that the judges could score them according to whatever pattern they are attempting. I agree that the beginner pattern is way too difficult for beginner level flyers. Basic flight pattern is hard enough for a beginner. The beginner pattern is more of an intermediate level challenge. A lot of advanced flyers do not want to have to fly in open or expert level because they know that they cannot compete with the truly expert level flyers. For control line to continue to exist, we should try to find a way to embrace and encourage every single person who wants to fly. Expert flyers come from beginners, everyone had to learn at some point in their life. Plus you do not have to be an expert flyer to enjoy flying and the challenge of trying to learn how to fly better.
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Here is the conundrum. With a large contest we need more classes and can draw judges from other classes (The best judge I ever knew could not fly the pattern). With a small contest, like our local contests, you are lucky to have enough judges period and rarely do we have one where some local experts do not get to fly. For me, judging was a tremendous learning experience, especially if you can judge world class fliers. I think part of the answer to local competition is to involve the less experienced fliers, even non fliers and interested spouses in judging.
Ken
Ken,
Stay tuned for an announcement from PAMPA. We have a group that has been working on a method to do just what you are proposing.
Steve
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Ken,
Stay tuned for an announcement from PAMPA. We have a group that has been working on a method to do just what you are proposing.
Steve
I have judged stunt at many local and regional contests and judged OTS at Brodak one year. I am happy to help judge and tabulate whenever I have the time. I agree that judging expert level flyers has helped me learn a lot about flying stunt. I also like to fly, and I find the experience of flying at a contest to be a good way to challenge myself and get some feedback on what I am doing right and what I still need to work on. This applies at any level of flying, and I am very happy to get the chance to fly the Basic Flight Pattern as I am still working on learning all the Beginner Stunt Pattern (which is not really a beginner pattern at all).
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I have been thinking about this issue for some time. I feel that Beginner and Intermediate at the Nats is being run well as a non-Official event, with Beginner being on the 2 tier system with the Basic Flight and Beginner Patterns and Intermediate being the full Stunt Pattern. There seems to be a bit of a bottle neck between advanced and expert. I feel that the people that are on the cusp of being in expert need a little incentive to go there, and I can understand that as I DID IT. If we had a two tier expert grouping with all pilots together flying in front of the same judges (Class I and 2), it would relieve some of the overload in advanced and give people a way to ease into expert without feeling like they don"t belong there. This system ensures that no more judges are needed and the new expert flyers still have a chance of being recognized for their efforts.
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I have been thinking about this issue for some time. I feel that Beginner and Intermediate at the Nats is being run well as a non-Official event, with Beginner being on the 2 tier system with the Basic Flight and Beginner Patterns and Intermediate being the full Stunt Pattern. There seems to be a bit of a bottle neck between advanced and expert. I feel that the people that are on the cusp of being in expert need a little incentive to go there, and I can understand that as I DID IT. If we had a two tier expert grouping with all pilots together flying in front of the same judges (Class I and 2), it would relieve some of the overload in advanced and give people a way to ease into expert without feeling like they don"t belong there. This system ensures that no more judges are needed and the new expert flyers still have a chance of being recognized for their efforts.
I don't think the issue is significant at the NATs, since it's JSO and highly likely to remain that way. If we were to change something at the NATs, it's more likely to be the "A/B/C" system we had previously discussed at length, if nothing else because you have enough entries and time to make it work. That's a real step up from the current unofficial classes, the same people fly their 4 flights with everyone else on the L Pad instead of a morning down on the grass.
I think the issue, if there is one, is at local contests where everyone packs themselves into just two classes, and beginner and intermediate are effectively dead. our idea, if I understand it, is very similar to my variants, where we effectively split it back into 3 or 4, and provide come cosmetic "cover" for that by renaming the classes so you don't got from Expert to Intermediate based on redefining it.
Dave Trible's point is also good - this may only be an issue in a few places, if you only have 6 entries, it doesn't make any sense to divide it up at all, just fly everyone together and get home by 2 PM.
Brett
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Brett I think you are right not alot needs to change at the Nats because it is JSO However I do think that the beginners and intermediate fliers should remain on the grass circles for two reasons Grass is easier on equipment for those pilots who have not yet reached the advanced levels of competition and we all ready struggle trying to find enough pit area on the L pad now Your remarks on local contests is spot on Len
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How about fly em all , then devide into ' mugs ' , ' complete mugs ' , & ' total mugs ' . VD~ S?P S?P n1
Saw Marty Smith 250 Honda at Saddleback Park about Christmass 76 , A Front pack almost kept up , then there was the middle pack , of not to bad ( perhaps , was one of them every second race stopped for a ambulance for ) and the rear pack , near got itself lapped . SO the Skills sorted themselves into THREE pretty much distinct groups , in the same race. Therefore , at club level at least , running em all thru , and
fly what they can , and the should end up pretty clear ' devisions ' .
of course , in England , t would be ' beer mugs ' . H^^
(https://amablog-modelaircraft-org.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/2024F1DChamps-01-400x300.jpg)
Mugs Up . Im sure theres a good picture of Bill Werwage with a mug of beer , somewhere .
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If we had a two tier expert grouping with all pilots together flying in front of the same judges (Class I and 2), it would relieve some of the overload in advanced and give people a way to ease into expert without feeling like they don"t belong there. This system ensures that no more judges are needed and the new expert flyers still have a chance of being recognized for their efforts.
That’s what we do in the Nats qualifying rounds. Open and Advanced fly for the same judges. We do that in our local contests, too. It’s no different for judges to judge 5 Advanced guys and 5 Expert guys than it would be to judge 10 guys in a combined class.
What’s different is quantity of trophies. We are having a contest next weekend with one(1) Intermediate entry. I spent several hours making a trophy for him. I won’t be doing that again.
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I missed the point above. If you don’t have any nonfliers to judge, splitting the field into classes enables guys from one class to judge another.
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Isn't all about bringing bodies to an event ? Will contests cease to exist if only a handful of people attend ? Looks like that's happening already. Combine a FunFly and competition and see what happens. It might be a flop, but we'll never know until its been tried.
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Maybe it is time to forget contests and have fun fly get togethers. Have planes for new people to try. When I did that uears and years ago there was about 6 of us flying and new people acting interested. Took a couple weeks for a contests and when I got back no people flying. D>K
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Isn't all about bringing bodies to an event ? Will contests cease to exist if only a handful of people attend ? Looks like that's happening already. Combine a FunFly and competition and see what happens. It might be a flop, but we'll never know until its been tried.
Sounds like Brodaks, having a fun fly with competition. This event has been a success over the years.
Last year we ran “A” and “B” classes for P.A. - we just don’t have the numbers for all the classes. Beginner and true intermediate flyers in B and the rest of us in A .
Yes old combat pilots should start in intermediate . I think it’s not a question of doing the pattern…just remembering what comes next !
Brad
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At the Philly Flyers where in the midst of a youth movement. Five or so new members under the age of seventy. Beginner works very well. After learning inverted, outside loops, horizontal eights, a sorta of inside square and an overhead of oval different sized shapes they are ready to show great courage as they step up in front of judges. Keep beginner. Great way to start competition. A number of our youths have maintained enthusiasm this way as they progress. Three or four beginner contestants we have at our contests are easy enough to serve. Goes quickly.
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" Isn't all about bringing bodies to an event ? " etc .
Rather than take it all ( too ) seriously . :o for ' club stuff ' one judge throwing something close on the paper should do it .
With flyers standing round yelling ' Cor ! , did you see that ' .' He's stuffed that one up again ' . ' Gee , 11/10 for those corners, I recon ' . And the judge yelling " Shut up you lot , How can I concentrate with you rabble blathering away " . So then they can yell " 6 " , " 8 " , " 4 " and things . Actually if everyone watching whos got half a clue yelled out , and some kid wrote it down ! .
BUT , a Event marked on Effort , Drama , perseverance & things like that , rather than primearily the AEROPLANES magnificent feats , so in effect a handicap & line honours theme , suchlike . could be good for a laugh .
Particularlly for ' one make ' like ringmaster or nobler stunt . Where say the more weight & the more gutless give you a bigger % ' score ' . as long as it dosnt turn into a brawl .
Having a ' Brawl ' where the more you stuff it up whilst still in the accepted order , points THEN could be awarded for creativity . Evenings spent plotting the best ' awkward ' vertical eight and so on . A New Challenge . :-\
nothr nasty one would be adding 4 ounce say ' balast ' per round , to test their mettle . and increase nitro sales . S?P S?P