Material Prices Have Become Insane

[Mike Foley]

  What the heck is going on with prices. Silk Span at five and a half bucks for two sheets. Monokote is now much cheaper then paper, go figure.  A quart of dope for thirty two dollars. I knew the dollar was becoming devalued but this is getting down right stupid. Who can afford these prices? I know I can't

[John Fitzgerald]

I would guess a lack of competition due to lack of demand.  Likely there is not nearly as much kit building going on as there was several years ago.  I think this is at least partly due to the wide availability of ARFs.  Some ARFs can be had for not much more than the cost of a bare kit.  No dope or 'cote to purchase.  Quantity over quality I guess.  The instant gratification society.

[Tim Wescott]

Decent-width silk from Dharma Trading was around $5.50 per yard the last time I looked.  Sig lists "GM" silkspan at $1.39/sheet, and "SGM" at $1.99.  You can get a quart of Randolph's clear dope for $16 at Wicks, the last time I looked -- and from what I hear, Randolph's is thicker than model aviation brands, so it'll go farther.

Look harder?

[Mark Scarborough]

Mike,
good to see you back on line,, 
I buy my dope from Aircraft spruce and specialty. I buy a gallon, and two gallons of reducer.. works out about right and for putting on silkspan and doping it, I find it at least as good if not better. If you need some supplies to get going, I could use an excuse to come down for a visit ...
I hear the K and S silkspan is inferior these days, actually talking to Bob Hunt the other day he mentioned that they removed some carcinogen from the material for "safety" and that has affected its properties. Just what I was told..

I like Polyspan pretty well as a replacement for silkspan,, Of course I like sheeted wings better,, lol,,

[Mike Foley]

>>I hear the K and S silkspan is inferior these days, actually talking to Bob Hunt the other day he mentioned that they removed some carcinogen from the material for "safety" <<<

Evidently the paper was causing cancer in California, no doubt the reason for the change of formula. I suppose the big increase in price is to cover attorney fees for the impeding lawsuits.  I havn't really paid much attention the last three years but when I glanced at Brodak's prices today I like totally freaked out.  I didn't realize inflation has increased so much.  My COLA, "Cost of living allowance for retired military the last three years has stayed at zero percent. In the meantime our government continues to give themselves fat annual pay raises.

Been a rough day

[Howard Rush]

...he mentioned that they removed some carcinogen from the material for "safety" and that has affected its properties.

This is a standard story told by folks who found a cheaper supplier.  

[Clint Ormosen]

Brodak lists a qt of clear dope for $13.80. But I'm curious where you shopping if you were paying $32 a qt?

[Mike Foley]

Crystal Clear (32 oz.)
Item#BP-1082Q
Availability: In stock

$32.99

[Mike Foley]

OOPS! I guess I was off by a buck. A penny shy of thirty three bones

[Clint Ormosen]

Hmmm........ I didn't look at the "crystal clear" prices. I wonder why it's so much more that regular clear?

[Lester Nicholson]

Hobby shop in Tuscaloosa had 2 quarts of Sig butrate listed at $32.50 ea. Offered $15.00 ea He took it and I bought both and walked away thinkin' I got a "good deal" lol     Nick

[Mike Griffin]

As a cottage kit maker, it is becoming increasingly difficult to do a "kit run" and keep the cost of the kits reasonable.  You can spend $1000.00 in a heartbeat just on balsa for a modest number of kits in a run.  Add to that the cost of developing a CAD file , the cost of laser cutting, shipping and other material costs and you can be at $150.00 - $200.00 a kit. And this is with free labor.

There comes a point in time where you have to ask yourself if it is worth it.  As somebody above mentioned that by feeding China, you can buy an ARF made by some 13 year old Chinese girl for less than the price of an American produced kit.  When you look at it from the standpoint of economics, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to keep beating your head against the wall.  The reason I do it is because I am retired and I love to do it but in looking at the bottom line and what makes good sense, I do not know how much longer It will make sense to continue doing it.

Regards

Mike

[Joe Just]

Mike, glad to see you back on this forum, it's been a long time.  I still owe you a face to face apology.  If you happen to be in town please call and drop in for a chat.  As Ginny is still recovering from her health problems I am almost always at home. That goes for you too Mark. 
You may have noticed my article in CLW that referenced the use of Balsa in Windmill blades as a contributing factor in huge increases in Balsa cost, now about 70% higher than just 2 years ago.
Joe

[Randy Powell]

Aircraft Spruce is selling Certified Butyrate for $53.75 a gallon. The stuff comes out of the can like maple syrup so you have to cut it a minimum of 200% (usually a lot more) to get it near spraying consistency. I don't mind that. The part that kills me is that a gallon of thinner is $37.75.

[Tim Wescott]

As a cottage kit maker, it is becoming increasingly difficult to do a "kit run" and keep the cost of the kits reasonable.

That has been a problem for just about ever.  Add to that the fact that, because you own a business catering to hobbyists, your competition is also doing it as much for love as for money, too, and that tends to drive supply up even in the face of low prices.

I can't change that, but I can and do adhere to a policy of being appreciative of folks like you and refraining from b**ching when your kit prices come out so far ahead of something from Brodak or Sig.

[Mike Griffin]

Thank you Tim.  I think most folks in the hobby understand that or at least I hope they do.  I know Walter and Tom and anyone else in the cottage kit business struggles with the same issues.  We just do the best we can and hopefully fulfill a need.  Personally when I do a kit run, I try to not duplicate anything that is already out there or maybe a design that has never been kitted or has not been kitted in a long time.  These are not always the top end stunters but they do fill a huge gap for the sport flyer who just likes to have fun and maybe a really cool looking plane.

We are very appreciative of the support form all of you.

Mike

[SteveMoon]

Mike is right on the "money". Material costs do make it difficult for cottage
industry kit suppliers. We haven't offered kits at UHP since out laser cutter closed up
shop about 3 years ago, but we have had a few requests to start again. I'm
considering it, but it's a real struggle. A LOT of work goes into producing a kit
and we never made a dime from our laser cut kits. Every penny went into new
stock, and by the time we had sold the last of our kits there was no profit.

Also, while so many gripe about the quality of Chinese made ARFs, the two
we've had done were absolutely top notch. My Chinese made Impact ARF weighs
59 oz. ready to fly, while my UHP laser cut kit Impact weighs 64 oz. The build
quality on the ARF is excellent. Due to the use of jigs for every part they can
produce one straight, correct, light part after another. They just have to be told
what is expected. I found this to be pretty much the most important step in the
whole process. I sent the builder (owner of the factory) a long, detailed e-mail
concerning building methods, wood types, and expected weights and he nailed
it.

I really do want to produce kits again, but it is a daunting task. I'd like to see
more Bears and Gieseke Noblers out there for sure!

Later, Steve

[billbyles]

Aircraft Spruce is selling Certified Butyrate for $53.75 a gallon. The stuff comes out of the can like maple syrup so you have to cut it a minimum of 200% (usually a lot more) to get it near spraying consistency. I don't mind that. The part that kills me is that a gallon of thinner is $37.75.

I just bought from Aircraft Spruce in Corona, CA a few gallons of Randolph butyrate non-tautening clear A-1690, p/n 09-00818 at $43.40 per gallon, and a few gallons of Randolph butyrate thinner, p/n 9703-1G at $25.40 per gallon.

Aircraft Spruce shows Certified Coatings butyrate non-tautening clear, p/n 09-11000 at $39.50 per gallon, and Certified butyrate thinner, p/n 09-12000 at $25.90 per gallon.

Just curious, how is it that you paid as much as you show above?  Thanks.

Bill

[John Fitzgerald]

It looks like the building part of this hobby will price itself out of existence in a few years.  I found a pint can of Sig lite coat that I bought about 2002 for $5.65.  It's $15.99 now.  It's depressing enough with these increases, but I may have only a few years to enjoy building and flying models, so I will while I can.

[billbyles]

It looks like the building part of this hobby will price itself out of existence in a few years.  I found a pint can of Sig lite coat that I bought about 2002 for $5.65.  It's $15.99 now.  It's depressing enough with these increases, but I may have only a few years to enjoy building and flying models, so I will while I can.

John, buying butyrate dope in small quantities such as pints is the most expensive way to buy it.  For instance, Sig lists butyrate Lite-Coat at $15.99 per pint, and they list it for $26.29 per quart.  That is a little over 50% greater price for twice as much product.  If you buy dope a pint at a time, which is not enough for even one project (at least for me), then it will be very expensive.  For my models I buy butyrate dope a gallon at a time which is much less expensive per unit volume; the dope will keep for a long time if you store it properly.  Always put the lid back on tightly right after you pour some out for use, don't store it where the temperature gets over 100 degrees F, and don't open the can when the humidity gets much over 75% as that will allow moisture to get into the can.  In my full-scale airplane restoration business I have gallon & five gallon containers of butyrate dope that are 15 years old and still work just fine.  The main way that dope deteriorates is to become acidic due to absorbing moisture and/or being stored in the wrong kind of metal container.  You can tell if it has become acidic: the color will become noticeably amber & will have a different smell than when fresh.

The other thing that I do to minimize the cost of dope for my models is to use Randolph butyrate dope for all of the buildup & colors (Randolph offers a huge selection of colors & Aircraft Spruce will send to you a color chart for free), and Sig Lite-Coat for the top coat clear.  Randolph is a very high quality product, however I have found Sig to be more fuel-resistant than any other brand of dope.  For instance, the Aircraft Spruce price for a quart of Randolph A-1690 butyrate dope, non-tautening clear is $14.50.  Randolph 9703 butyrate thinner (which works just fine in Sig or any other butyrate dope) is $8.45 per quart and $25.40 per gallon.

 

[Steve Helmick]

Foley...I was killing some time in the local hardware chain store "McLendon's" and stumbled over one of those balsa display boxes. If it wasn't for almost 60 years of experience looking at balsa, I never would have noticed it. They had discount stickers on some (but not all) sizes. I walked out with 4 slabs of 1/2", most were 4" wide, and under $4 each. They varied from 5.45 to 5.85 pound stock, and the shocker is that they are Midwest balsa. Moral of the story is to keep your eyes open! Look forward to seeing you around the contest circles again.  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

I would guess a lack of competition due to lack of demand.  Likely there is not nearly as much kit building going on as there was several years ago.  I think this is at least partly due to the wide availability of ARFs.  Some ARFs can be had for not much more than the cost of a bare kit.  No dope or 'cote to purchase.  Quantity over quality I guess.  The instant gratification society.

I think recent increases in shipping and HazMat costs account for a considerable part of the price increases.  Especially on small quantities.
Thank the Government for some of that as usual!

Randy Cuberly

[Mike Griffin]

I think recent increases in shipping and HazMat costs account for a considerable part of the price increases.  Especially on small quantities.
Thank the Government for some of that as usual!

Randy Cuberly

Randy that is so true about shipping.  Again from my standpoint when I order balsa for a kit run I have to split the order....part of it has to be sent to the laser cutter and part has to be shipped to me (these are the sticks, blocks and sheeting).  That is two shipping charges right there.  Once the laser cut parts are cut, then they have to be shipped to me for packing (another shipping charge).  Once I have everything that has to be put into the kit, I ship it out to the customer (another shipping charge) ...so at the very least I have 4 shipping charges that have to be added to the cost of producing the kit.  I use USPS Priority Mail because as of this date they do the best job (believe it or not) of getting the kits to the consumer in about 3 days and hopefully in tact.  I have had some damage but not near as much as I had with UPS.  Shipping charges will be going up again soon as the Post Office struggles to stay afloat (another great government run entity)  The average cost right now on shipping a fully packed standard size kit box is around $15.00.  That varies of course by distance but if you want an "average" you can use that to figure what it will cost to ship you a kit within the CONUS.   International is another story.  $45-60.00 dollars is not uncommon for overseas.

Mike