Silkspan substitute for covering a fuselage

[Ken Culbertson]

Does anybody know of a substitute for silkspan to cover a fuselage (no open bays) that #1 can be bought at Hobby Lobby/Michaels and #2 can be applied using some sticky stuff that does not smell bad to be covered with some finishing stuff that will shine and does not smell bad?  I have seen some wrapping papers that are very silkspanish but I never actually used them.

Ken

[Paul Taylor]

Some time ago there was a thread on using the paper from the Dr office. The stuff they roll out on the exam tables. I think you still need dope to attach it.
Are you doing a dope finish? Rattle can or monokote ?

[944_Jim]

Ken, since you are using "a tissue" on wood, not open frame, I think you will be fine with whatever color regular art tissue such as Hallmark stuff.  My sons used a hunter green tissue on their DPCModels 1/2A Scientific clones (open structure wings). You may want to run some "color-bleed" tests before applying to the model if you aren't doping it down.

Yep. Tidi brand everyday crepe doctor's office exam table paper. Dan McEntee mailed me some to try several years ago. It used to be available "buy-the-roll." I bought mine for $12 delivered. Unfortunately now it is only available 12 rolls per box. I coined the name "DocSpan" here because it is quite a mouthful to say "Tidi Every Day Crepe Doctor's Office Exam Table Paper Number 98-1004."

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/world-shortage-of-silkspan-ended-frank-d-nominated-for-'hero-of-the-reich'/msg622094/#msg622094

Time for me to pay forward, Ken...PM your physical address and height, width, length of your fuselage. My roll is 21" wide, so you can have a segment the length of your fuselage...plus size inches. Will that work for you?

Jim in NE MS

[Robert Zambelli]

.5 ounce fiberglass works very well, especially on compound curves.
I just dope it on.

Bob Z.

[Ken Culbertson]

Some time ago there was a thread on using the paper from the Dr office. The stuff they roll out on the exam tables. I think you still need dope to attach it.
Are you doing a dope finish? Rattle can or monokote ?

Monokote where ever I can but experience had taught me that Monokote should not be used on a fuselage.  My problem is that I have to build in my office and the smell of dope gets into the AC.  CA dissipates so quickly that I get away with it.  Epoxy doesn't appear to linger like dope so I might try z-poxy.  I have used it before but that was back when I had a shop and I can't remember the smell.
Is there a source for Dr. Paper that doesn't require me to by enough to cover 3,000 planes?

Ken

[john e. holliday]

Go to the finish section or search doc paper and read up on it.  Mine came from the fabric store as well as the adhesive which is heat activated.  No odor either.  If I wasn't so lazy I would go look it up for you.  You can also see pictures of planes done with it.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken, since you are using "a tissue" on wood, not open frame, I think you will be fine with whatever color regular art tissue such as Hallmark stuff.  My sons used a hunter green tissue on their DPCModels 1/2A Scientific clones (open structure wings). You may want to run some "color-bleed" tests before applying to the model if you aren't doping it down.

Yep. Tidi brand everyday crepe doctor's office exam table paper. Dan McEntee mailed me some to try several years ago. It used to be available "buy-the-roll." I bought mine for $12 delivered. Unfortunately now it is only available 12 rolls per box. I coined the name "DocSpan" here because it is quite a mouthful to say "Tidi Every Day Crepe Doctor's Office Exam Table Paper Number 98-1004."

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/world-shortage-of-silkspan-ended-frank-d-nominated-for-'hero-of-the-reich'/msg622094/#msg622094

Time for me to pay forward, Ken...PM your physical address and height, width, length of your fuselage. My roll is 21" wide, so you can have a segment the length of your fuselage...plus size inches. Will that work for you?

Jim in NE MS

That is what I found going on line.  I will take you up on the offer if I can't find something tomorrow at the Craft stores.  I have a long history with FF so I do know how to play with tissue, but I prefer the moldability of silkspan.  My planes have a lot of curves!  Now if I can find a dope like substance that smells like spring flowers, I will be in pig heaven.

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Go to the finish section or search doc paper and read up on it.  Mine came from the fabric store as well as the adhesive which is heat activated.  No odor either.  If I wasn't so lazy I would go look it up for you.  You can also see pictures of planes done with it.

You have jogged an old memory of my wife and me shopping for HER fabric at Hobby Lobby.  I made the mistake of saying that this stuff looks just like what I cover my planes with.  1st stop Monday.  Did the heat activated adhesive cause any finishing problems?

Thanks - Ken

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Ken,

For what it's worth, I build a lot of profiles and have been using the exam paper and it works well.  I know you cannot use dope per your explanation, but I would think you could apply it with Polycrylic or Z Poxy (has little odor if any).  I use dope, and then mix dope and Zinc Stearate and put a few coats of that and sand with 400 and it gives a really good painting surface.   

Mike

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi Ken,

For what it's worth, I build a lot of profiles and have been using the exam paper and it works well.  I know you cannot use dope per your explanation, but I would think you could apply it with Polycrylic or Z Poxy (has little odor if any).  I use dope, and then mix dope and Zinc Stearate and put a few coats of that and sand with 400 and it gives a really good painting surface.   

Mike

Mike - Thanks for the read on Z-Poxy.  I have used it in the past and really liked it but I couldn't remember if it smelled.  I remember using shellac on HLG's as a youngster because Don's mother would let us use it in the house.  Don passed about ten years ago so I can't ask him!  Polycrlyic doesn't linger much either.  You can put anything over Z-poxy, not sure about the others.

Thanks - ken

[Steve Dwyer]

I really am excited over discovering we can effectively apply doctors paper to non open balsa panels using odorless water based Polycrylic or Z-Poxy; I have health issue using butyrate dopes inside.

Now if we could only use Polycrylic to adhear Polyspan, the wing covering could be part of the in shop winter build and not postponed until spring out in the garage using dope. Any thoughts on odorless alternatives that will have the heat activation properties? I believe Sig's Stix is solvent based but is it as toxic as acetone and more interior friendly? 

Steve

[Dan McEntee]

You have jogged an old memory of my wife and me shopping for HER fabric at Hobby Lobby.  I made the mistake of saying that this stuff looks just like what I cover my planes with.  1st stop Monday.  Did the heat activated adhesive cause any finishing problems?

Thanks - Ken

    Doc may be confusing doc span with the material that is similar or the same thing as what we call "Polyspan." It is a dress lining material and the trade name for it at the fabric store is Pelon, and has a number following it that represents what weight it is. it comes in several weights and finishes, and the stuff we call Polyspan is among the lightest Pelon.  This is the umteenth time this has come up and it's about time the pertinent threads got pinned and saved to the top of the finishing section. Doc applies his using Modge Podge from the craft store and then irons the covering on. The Pelon then will heat shrink. He has described that process numerous times. When the doc span story first broke out, I forget who exactly discovered it, but did so while sitting on the exam table at the doctor one day. They supplied him with the product name and part number. He acquired a roll at the local Staples Office Supply store. Some of us started digging on the internet, and I found the TIDI website and asked them to sent me some samples of the part numbers in question, and they sent me a whole roll. If you search out the threads, myself and another member compared samples of the two TIDI numbers that are mentioned in previous threads with known good samples of two weights of K&S silk span. I cut the TIDI samples to the same area as the K&S sheets and weighed them, and they were almost identical in weight. They pass the "tear test" that shows the grain of the paper to go the length of the roll. I soaked both weights of TIDI paper in a pan of water and pulled them out by the corners and shook the wrinkles out with out tearing the material. I have found whole cases of the same numbers for sale on eBay quite cheap, with one being with in a few miles of my house. If the cases get damaged  or broken open in transit, they are often refused and end up at resale outlets. I'm pretty sure that it was determined what other company part numbers were. Companies like McKesson and such. Its all here in the Stunthanger archives.   One way that the lightest tissue and silk span can be applied is with thinned white glue. This is nothing new. Ron St Jean outlined this process back in the late 50's or early 60s when he discovered the use of foam for the wings on free flight models. I'm pretty sure i ty was Ron St. Jean but may have the name screwed up. The biggest thing to watch for with the exam table paper is the part numbers. TIDI makes exam table paper in literally hundreds of types and styles and what we want is like Jim mentions is the "crepe" style and that only comes in the two part number we use. It is listed in 26" roll widths but I have never found any in that size, with the 21" roll being the most prominent. Rolls are 125 feet long. Hunt around until you find a deal on a case and then share with your buddies! Shipping one roll costs more than the roll of paper costs these days!.
  Type at you later,
   Dan  McEntee

[Steve Berry]

Followig up with wht Dan said, here is the lightweight silkspan...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0017TMTCA/?coliid=I228GV3WS5HA4F&colid=DY6RQZPXBG3L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

...and here is the medium silkspan...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071J8H8KW/?coliid=I2F0ZLMLOR93XI&colid=DY6RQZPXBG3L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Both are 12 roll cases, but for me, at least, shipping is free (Amazon Prime). I'd be willing to get a case of each and split it with y'all that are local to DFW. It looks like it would be $3.84/roll for the lightweight, and $3.19/roll for the medium, with both weights being a 21" x 125' roll.

Steve

[Dan McEntee]

Followig up with wht Dan said, here is the lightweight silkspan...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0017TMTCA/?coliid=I228GV3WS5HA4F&colid=DY6RQZPXBG3L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

...and here is the medium silkspan...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B071J8H8KW/?coliid=I2F0ZLMLOR93XI&colid=DY6RQZPXBG3L&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Both are 12 roll cases, but for me, at least, shipping is free (Amazon Prime). I'd be willing to get a case of each and split it with y'all that are local to DFW. It looks like it would be $3.84/roll for the lightweight, and $3.19/roll for the medium, with both weights being a 21" x 125' roll.

Steve

   Yep, those part numbers look correct. That i way cheaper than what silk span is going for on eBay these days!! 3 or 4 bucks a roll and it would cost about ten bucks to send a roll in the mail. That is still pretty damn reasonable.
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Trostle]

.5 ounce fiberglass works very well, especially on compound curves.
I just dope it on.

Bob Z.

Bob,

I sent you a message.

Keith

[Steve Helmick]

There was a guy in DFW area that often posted about the virtues of Polycrylic and silkspan as the base for paint finish. "Godzilla" or something similar was his Stunt Hanger (sic) user name. IIRC, he used it over all the surfaces, being foam/balsa wing...and auto paint for the final layers. He apparently gave up on stunt and concentrated on shooting sports. Doug Moon might know how to contact him. I've used Polycrylic and liked it a lot. Didn't notice any odor at all. 

I built a couple of models while we lived at Edwards AFB, and had trouble with dope drying too fast when trying to apply silk. I'd read about applying silk using unflavored Knox gelatin, and tried that for attaching the covering. It worked fine, and no odor. I used butyrate dope for the actual finish. One of those models flew for quite a few years with no problems related to the Knox gelatin.

FWIW, Windy Urtnowski said he did all his painting (dope) outside, which should be fairly high humidity in NJ.  Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

There was a guy in DFW area that often posted about the virtues of Polycrylic and silkspan as the base for paint finish. "Godzilla" or something similar was his Stunt Hanger (sic) user name. IIRC, he used it over all the surfaces, being foam/balsa wing...and auto paint for the final layers. He apparently gave up on stunt and concentrated on shooting sports. Doug Moon might know how to contact him. I've used Polycrylic and liked it a lot. Didn't notice any odor at all. 

I built a couple of models while we lived at Edwards AFB, and had trouble with dope drying too fast when trying to apply silk. I'd read about applying silk using unflavored Knox gelatin, and tried that for attaching the covering. It worked fine, and no odor. I used butyrate dope for the actual finish. One of those models flew for quite a few years with no problems related to the Knox gelatin.

FWIW, Windy Urtnowski said he did all his painting (dope) outside, which should be fairly high humidity in NJ.  Steve

I am going with the polycrylic for covering and filling then z-poxy top.  Still undecided on color coats. and I have conned one of my friends into shooting the clear at his place.

Ken

[Lauri Malila]

..

[pmackenzie]

There was a guy in DFW area that often posted about the virtues of Polycrylic and silkspan as the base for paint finish. "Godzilla" or something similar was his Stunt Hanger (sic) user name. IIRC, he used it over all the surfaces, being foam/balsa wing...and auto paint for the final layers. He apparently gave up on stunt and concentrated on shooting sports. Doug Moon might know how to contact him. I've used Polycrylic and liked it a lot. Didn't notice any odor at all.

Bradley Walker perhaps?

His methods are described here. The laquer primer is the smelly part, but it dries very fast, so you could do that outside?

https://www.flystunt.com/2014/01/28/a-modern-model-finish/

[Ara Dedekian]

     Here's a water based dope from England. They have other products including tissue. Amazon carries the brand as well as my local hobby shop but I don't know who supplies them. Free flight suppliers likely carry  it as I learned about it from the FF community. Brodak carries their balsa filler but I didn't see any of their other products on his site.

    Ara

[Steve Helmick]

     Here's a water based dope from England. They have other products including tissue. Amazon carries the brand as well as my local hobby shop but I don't know who supplies them. Free flight suppliers likely carry  it as I learned about it from the FF community. Brodak carries their balsa filler but I didn't see any of their other products on his site.

    Ara

A bit of googling (with DuckDuckGo, of course), I found that Horizon Hobby carries Eze Dope...except that it's out of stock. But they're expecting a shipment in Dec. 2022, which indicates they're hopeful for some soon. The description says it dries quickly and with a matte finish. It seems very expensive to me, at $11+ per 250ml bottle (which isn't much product to put on a stunt model). Water-based stuff will tend to raise the grain, another problem. I think I'd look more at Polycrylic or similar.  Steve

[Ken Culbertson]

Carbon veil is not yet mentioned here. While I don't care much of it, it can still be ok substitute for silkspan/Modellspan on solid surfaces.
Also, I recommend making test pieces to find out whether the lightest GF cloth really is the most efficient in reality. A little thicker ones, like 2 or even 2,5oz. often end up in similar weight/area, but with much better fiber content = stiffness. The lightest glass cloths are often quite scarce, net-like. And you end up sanding most of the fibres broken. L

I have used CF before and I am not impressed.  Lot of work, little strength added and by the time I was done most of it was sanded off.  You know I think I saw some sewing paper at Walmart that looked like silkspan.  Time to go shopping.

Ken

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Is light weight silk still available?  I have a piece of (vintage) Esaki that can't weigh much more than a Kleenex ... if that!

Dennis

[pmackenzie]

Is light weight silk still available?  I have a piece of (vintage) Esaki that can't weigh much more than a Kleenex ... if that!

Dennis

Yes.

https://www.thaisilks.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_2&products_id=11&osCsid=qo0ans0l437urtbgo7i2v9eo11

[944_Jim]

@ Pmackenzie, thanks for the painting article link. This may be a "dope breaker" for me. I've been using dope because it is what I know. However, cost and lack of local availability means it may be time for a change. This could be the change I was looking for. Since I fly smalls, and still have a significant portion of DocSpan, I plan on testing PC and tissue in the not-so-near future.

[Paul Taylor]

Monokote where ever I can but experience had taught me that Monokote should not be used on a fuselage.  My problem is that I have to build in my office and the smell of dope gets into the AC.  CA dissipates so quickly that I get away with it.  Epoxy doesn't appear to linger like dope so I might try z-poxy.  I have used it before but that was back when I had a shop and I can't remember the smell.
Is there a source for Dr. Paper that doesn't require me to by enough to cover 3,000 planes?

Ken

I have used monokote on profiles and will attempt a Vector in the future.
I have see some nice full body fuselage planes covered. One of the best ones I have seen was done by Louis Rankin. It has been mistaken as a dope finish by a few folks.

Allen brickhaus always did monokote and rattle can finishes that looked good. I bet you can find some of his finishing articles in MA or SN.

Good Luck and be sure to post some pictures. 🤓

[Ken Culbertson]

I have used monokote on profiles and will attempt a Vector in the future.
I have see some nice full body fuselage planes covered. One of the best ones I have seen was done by Louis Rankin. It has been mistaken as a dope finish by a few folks.

Allen brickhaus always did monokote and rattle can finishes that looked good. I bet you can find some of his finishing articles in MA or SN.

Good Luck and be sure to post some pictures. 🤓

I have done a couple of fuselages full monokote but had trouble with the nose and fillets.  This one has more curves than a Playboy centerfold.   Monokote covers well with rattle can and takes a clear coat as well.   I will post pix on the build thread (Endgame III).  The plane in my Avatar is Monokote and Rustoleum.

Ken

[john e. holliday]

It is amazing the types of fabric that can be found at the locl fabric store.  Most come in different weights, like silk, nylon and poly-ester.  The Mod-podge also comes in different flavors and is odorless.  The dogs liked it a lot better than the dope and epoxy.

[Lauri Malila]

..Of course, if you are willing to order from abroad, there are still any shops selling Modellspan paper in Europe, especially in Germany and Switzerland. The lw one is perfect for covering fuselages and such, better than Silkspan in my opinion.
Or Ask what Charlie & Geralyn at FAI model supplies has to offer. L

[Ken Culbertson]

I am probably going with light silkspan or tissue and Mod Podge to attach and build base finish followed by z-poxy (maybe).  So I have questions from the MP advocates.

#1 is this the right one.  When I went to the fabric store they had a shelf full of different MP's.

#2 does the red circled statement on the instructions (I actually read them - sometimes I even follow them) have meaning to us?  Do I need to wait 28 days to clear coat?

#3 the best filler.  I did a test with tissue over balsa, and it does raise the grain a bit but a pre-coat sanded with 600 got it smooth enough that it was just like dope.  It took 2 coats over the tissue to where I could sand it and not get shiny spots.  I was coached to not use filler if you can get it smooth that quickly.

#4 will Monokote stick to it and will it stick to monokote to seal the edges.

Advice from the advocates would be appreciated - Ken

[Steve Berry]

My advice, such as it is, is perhaps build a quick and dirty test piece and try everything on that. If it works, proceed with the model; if not, you haven't just wasted your entire model, just a small test part.

#1 - no clue, as I haven't used it myself and am actually awaiting your results so I know how to proceed

#2 - that's how I read it

#3 - filled & smooth is filled & smooth. If a couple of coats of this does the job, then great. Proceed in the next step of finishing.

#4 - build & cover a test piece and see what happens

Steve

ps - the offer still stands if someone wants to split one of those cases of the doc paper silkspan (light and/or medium).

[Mike Morrow]

I use this with polyspan and poiycrilic

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Mike Morrow]

Oops, hit send without the photo

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Dick Byron]

Her is a sight. Everything you need.

https://easybuiltmodels.com/#gsc.tab=0

[rich gorrill]

I have used e-z- dope, it is very easy to work with.

[Ken Culbertson]

I tried putting some monokote over the Mod Podge test piece and it held better than anything I have put it over including bare balsa.  Has anybody used it to prep a monokoted wing?  I am tempted to try and cover the fuselage now.  Sticking to the fillets is the only reason for me to not use Monokote.

Ken

[Jim Svitko]

Her is a sight. Everything you need.

https://easybuiltmodels.com/#gsc.tab=0

I have been using the medium silkspan from Easy Built.  No issues with it.  No reason for me to look for any substitute as it works for my needs.  Too bad they do not have a heavier version, like the product from years past.

[Ken Culbertson]

A flying buddy came through with two sheets of SIG Medium, so I am set for covering.

Ken

[Dave_Trible]

I have been using the medium silkspan from Easy Built.  No issues with it.  No reason for me to look for any substitute as it works for my needs.  Too bad they do not have a heavier version, like the product from years past.

I did try that on a couple airplanes.  All was well till 2-3 years out when the dope cured and stretched to the max.  The paper started popping and shredding with just a finger touch. There seems to be no fiber strength to it.  Actually that was pretty close to the same result I had with doctor paper-at least the type I tried.  My go-to now is Guillow's tissue,  like that used in their rubber power kits.  It is not Japanese tissue with a slick side.  It's more like light weight-but twice as dense silkspan.  It covered well and is really pretty tough once finished.  It also takes a fraction of the dope to fill.  Paul Guillows company is still in business but mostly on-line these days.  I just order off their website.  Like everything these days it's not very cheap but worth it to me.

Dave

Addendum:  If you order be sure to specify product # 122,  (00),  which is in 35" x 15" sheets.  They have something else similar in a little different size that isn't as tough.  I just looked on their website-it may be out of stock.   If interested I'd call them and inquire.  I'm actually using the last of my stock today.

[Ara Dedekian]

I tried putting some monokote over the Mod Podge test piece and it held better than anything I have put it over including bare balsa.  Has anybody used it to prep a monokoted wing?

Ken

    Ken,

       Here's a rebuilt ModPodged wing covered with dress shop material. Not a Monokote type film, but the 'Podge stuck the veil down quite well. I don't do a lot of flying with it, (it's got an Enya 29 on pressure) but it's staying put. It's got a layer of SLC on top of the veil.

       Ara

[Jim Svitko]

I did try that on a couple airplanes.  All was well till 2-3 years out when the dope cured and stretched to the max.  The paper started popping and shredding with just a finger touch. There seems to be no fiber strength to it.  Actually that was pretty close to the same result I had with doctor paper-at least the type I tried.  My go-to now is Guillow's tissue,  like that used in their rubber power kits.  It is not Japanese tissue with a slick side.  It's more like light weight-but twice as dense silkspan.  It covered well and is really pretty tough once finished.  It also takes a fraction of the dope to fill.  Paul Guillows company is still in business but mostly on-line these days.  I just order off their website.  Like everything these days it's not very cheap but worth it to me.

Dave

Addendum:  If you order be sure to specify product # 122,  (00),  which is in 35" x 15" sheets.  They have something else similar in a little different size that isn't as tough.  I just looked on their website-it may be out of stock.   If interested I'd call them and inquire.  I'm actually using the last of my stock today.

I do not cover open bays with the Easy Built silkspan.  I use it to cover bare wood only.  It works fine for that purpose.

[Dave_Trible]

Makes sense Jim.  I have several batches of different papers I've tried that aren't great for open bays.  I'm sure I'll use them as you are- even the wrong batch of Guillows paper I bought a bunch of. 

Dave