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Author Topic: 2016 NATS  (Read 4122 times)

Offline Bob Heywood

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2016 NATS
« on: November 02, 2015, 01:44:01 PM »
AMA Executive Council has approved the calendar for the 2016 Nationals. R/C & C/L Scale will be June 24-26. The balance of C/L will be July 16-23. The various facets of C/L will post their event schedules at a later date.
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Online bob whitney

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2015, 03:11:00 PM »
who's Bright idea was that
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Offline eric david conley

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2015, 04:22:36 PM »
     Bob please tell me this was just a silly little misprint? Maybe the scale is going to be July 24-26? Eric
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2015, 06:29:18 PM »
That can't possibly be right.  JUNE???

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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2015, 06:48:48 PM »
The June date for Scale is correct.

Two(2) proposed calendars for the Nationals were presented at the Planning Meeting held on September 12, 2015. Calendar A had the dates as I posted to start this thread. Calendar B had R/C & C/L Scale on July 8-10 with the balance of C/L running July 11-16. The Muncie Ironman event is July 9. It sucks up all of the available motel rooms heading into the weekend so those in attendance at the meeting voted to go with Calendar A.
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Offline eric david conley

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2015, 07:09:34 PM »
     I've gone to the NATs over the last 4 years and only once had a problem. The problem was I had to go to another Motel one night because the Motel I was staying in was booked for Iron Man on just one of those nights, it wasn't a problem. I looked up the Muncie Ironman for 2016 and the published date is July 9th?? I think this decision was poorly thought out and certainly the people that participate weren't called upon to help with this decision. Well not this one anyway.  Eric
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2015, 07:42:31 PM »
There hasn't been a REAL Nats since the Navy left.
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 07:44:38 PM »
Sounds good to me.
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Offline eric david conley

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2015, 10:19:29 AM »
     Bob, I'll address this to you although I understand that you may not have the answer. Who is on the planning committee? Several years ago there were members that competed at the NATs that were allowed to sit in on the planning meetings and although they had no say in how things went they could voice their opinions. I believe Pete Masur use to attend these meetings (maybe Pete could chime in here), then several years ago the AMA President decided they wouldn't have the meeting open to the competitor's. They concluded among them selves that it would be easier for them (the AMA) to make the decisions.
     I think based on my experience over the last 4 years that although the Ironman was a ''small problem to a few'' it certainly was not a game changer. The Ironman competitor's like to get to Muncie the night before the one day event and then as far as I could tell leave the that evening following the competition.
     I'm not sure but think that the RC Scale competitors would not compete in any other events but RC Scale? The CL Scale competitors do have several serious competitors from the western US that fly in other CL events besides Scale and I don't think they will make the trip twice in one months time. I'm left wondering if the AMA fully realizes this?  Eric
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2015, 10:38:03 AM »

Sounds like the AMA made up the schedule  to suit their needs. Not the members...

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2015, 11:30:38 AM »
Last year I came out 2 days early so I could watch some of the other CL events which I had never been able to do before. In 2014 the CL scale events were flown before all of the other CL events and there was 2 day delay before things really got going so I never hung around and never got to see any of the CL aerobatics or other events.

Then in 2015 the CL scale was after all of the other CL events so I came out a few days early and watched CL speed and Aerobatics. Went around the whole site while things were going on and had a great time. Then we competed in CL scale on Friday thru Sunday.

With this schedule for 2016 RC & CL scale will be by itself with no other CL events going on. Eric is right we have a good number of cross over pilots who fly more than one CL event. I was thinking of entering Fox 35 speed at the Nats (if they made it available) but with this schedule that will not be possible.

Burt Brokaw who flies lots of CL carrier probably won't make the extra trip to fly CL fun scale like he has the last few years. Look in the CL scale section, Bob Whitney has already stated that this schedule knocks him out.

Fred
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2015, 11:55:25 AM »
I think that is a shame.  There  are a few CL guys who fly multiple events and it's just fun to go watch scale even if you don't fly it.  I'm pretty sure the reason is they use the same static judges for RC and CL.  If CL could rustle up judges it could likely be brought back into CL week.  The possible 'up' side is maybe we won't have the LPad restrictions and overflights we usually get with the RC crowd over on site 3.  Can judges be recruited?

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Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2015, 11:56:24 AM »
     Bob, the "IRONMAN" has not been that much of a problem because most competitors reserve rooms well ahead of time. The "IRON" people generally clear out by Sat. and SUN. The other thing is that all C/L events should be scheduled together as done in the past-either have speed,race,carrier, scale C/L ahead, or behind Stunt. I sympathize with what Fred said.
       Doug

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 12:37:53 PM »
CL and RC scale have never shared judges so that should not have been one of the issues. But RC and CL scale are both run by NASA (National Association of Scale Aeromodelers) and typically run at the same time. NASA is the SIG that runs the scale events so they would both happen at the same time just at two different flying sites. The static is done at the same site but with different judges.

I think there was something with the fly over area from the RC scale flying over the L pad and other CL flying sites also being a factor.

I never saw the Iron Man hotel shortage as a problem. Really enjoyed seeing the other CL flying events being flown.

Fred
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 12:46:44 PM »
    Bob, I'll address this to you although I understand that you may not have the answer. Who is on the planning committee? Several years ago there were members that competed at the NATs that were allowed to sit in on the planning meetings and although they had no say in how things went they could voice their opinions. I believe Pete Masur use to attend these meetings (maybe Pete could chime in here), then several years ago the AMA President decided they wouldn't have the meeting open to the competitor's. They concluded among them selves that it would be easier for them (the AMA) to make the decisions.
     I think based on my experience over the last 4 years that although the Ironman was a ''small problem to a few'' it certainly was not a game changer. The Ironman competitor's like to get to Muncie the night before the one day event and then as far as I could tell leave the that evening following the competition.
     I'm not sure but think that the RC Scale competitors would not compete in any other events but RC Scale? The CL Scale competitors do have several serious competitors from the western US that fly in other CL events besides Scale and I don't think they will make the trip twice in one months time. I'm left wondering if the AMA fully realizes this?  Eric

Eric,

I attended the Planning Meeting as the representative for C/L Navy Carrier (NCS). I also served as the proxy representative for C/L Speed (NASS) and C/L Combat (MACA). Dave Betz represented C/L Racing (NCLRA). Dennis Adamisin represented CLPA (PAMPA). Allen Goff represented C/L Scale (NASA). John Boyko and Mike Barbee represented R/C Scale (NASA). R/C Soaring (LSF) and R/C Combat (?) also had representation. Contrary to previously stated opinions, all of the SIGs present were represented by active modelers.

Tony Stillman chaired the meeting. Joyce Hager and Yolanda Jones were also in attendance.

As I said, we were presented with two choices for the calendar. There was not an opportunity to propose an alternative. While the Ironman conflict may not have been a problem for a few it was a show stopper for the majority. That made Calendar B a non-starter. The reality, from the broader perspective, is that several hundred people from C/L Scale, C/L Combat, and R/C Scale would have been affected.

The other point is that R/C & C/L Scale both operate under the NASA banner. The decision going into the meeting was already made to run both facets of Scale on the same schedule as in past few years.

One other consideration is that AMA, as an organization, has a significant investment in the IAC and seeks to utilize the facility as much as possible. The actual Nationals runs for nearly three months plus there are other events like Camp AMA so it is not as easy as it might seem to move things around.

You asked if HQ staff had any sensitivity to the potential impact on participation of this calendar. Probably not so much. All I can say is that AMA Executive Council has effectively outsourced the promotion, participation in, and success of the Nationals to the SIGs. It became our concern and decisions had to be made.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 04:16:58 PM by Bob Heywood »
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 12:52:49 PM »
The flyover issue with R/C Scale went away. R/C Scale will be using Site 4 located on the south boundary of the IAC.
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Offline eric david conley

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2015, 02:21:19 PM »
     Bob, thank you for giving a very detailed explanation for how this decision was made. I'm a little hung up on the Plan A and Plan B thing. I'm kind of thick headed (bone not brains) when it comes to understanding sometimes and it seems that this will be one of them. I guess Plan A was to move these RC/CL Scale events to June and Plan B was to have the events held along with all of the other RC/CL events (NATs). So the deciding factor to move them (to Plan A) was because of the Ironman conflicting? If I have this straight so far I would think, why didn't they move all of the events so they wouldn't conflict with Ironman? I may be all wrong but when I went to the Ironman web site I thought it said that Ironman would be on the 9th of July and it was a one day event? When I had to give up my room for one day because of Ironman the Deskman told me it was because the entrants in Ironman like to stay overnight the night before the event and when it is over their out of there (one night). This happened to me one time without a reservation and from then on I got reservations early and have not had trouble sense. The biggest point of my rant is I'm stunned that this move or change is caused by ''Ironman''?  Eric
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2015, 03:33:47 PM »
Well, for me at least the Ironman weekend resulted in hotels (Comfort and Holiday Inn) jacking me for a hundred dollars over the AMA rate for a room that weekend.  So there is a definite effect from the Ironman event.
Steve

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2015, 03:58:18 PM »
The NASA (the Scale SIG) had their representatives (RC & CL) at the NATs Planning Meeting.  They wanted to run the their events at the same time so that they could share their sport with their closest aficionados.  While I too like to attend CL Scale either at the beginning or the end of CL week, that has now changed due to the enthusiastic support of the RC & CL Scale leaders.   
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Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2015, 04:21:04 PM »
       Thanks Dennis and Bob for s'plain'in the situation.
       Doug

Offline peabody

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2015, 04:36:54 PM »
The plus is that it may allow a few to visit from overseas.....first to Brodaks' and then to the US Nats....not too far apart....

Sure kills any thought that maybe we should make it as viable as possible for kids.....

Offline eric david conley

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2015, 05:03:52 PM »
     Steve, I got jacked the year I got there with no reservation and I had to spend ''one'' night at another motel but sense I started making reservations I've had no trouble. Supper 8, good room, good rates and Ihop just across the parking lot.
     Dennis, I'm shocked a little by how you put, they, the ''RC and CL representative's'' wanted to run their events at the same time so that they could share their sport with their closest aficionados. ''due to the enthusiastic support of the RC & CL Scale leaders''. I guess my problem is that in the last 4 years that I have attended the NATs Allen G has been pressing for more people to fly CL Scale and in fact more people have been in attendance which is wonderful. So if I read this right is CL Scale getting cross overs from RC scale and not from other control line fliers? If this is true did they use Ironman for an excuse to go off by themselves? Just beginning to wonder.  Eric
Eric

Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2015, 08:10:49 PM »
Allen Goff was definitely in the camp of keeping the scale events together.  His NASA friends from RC were also quite enthusiastic. To me it looks like the right people (the Scale enthusiasts)  made what they believe to be the right call - I am wishing them well and I really hope it comes together for them.
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Offline Bob Heywood

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2015, 08:34:59 PM »
Eric,

I don't believe there is any hidden agenda. All of the NASA representatives were sufficiently concerned about a conflict, real or perceived, with the Ironman event that they didn't want to use the July 8-10 dates. That's pretty much it.

NASA leadership is genuinely interested in growing participation in both R/C & C/L Scale competition. The group feels it is in the best interest of both facets to work together as much as possible. A strong SIG is exactly what AMA HQ wants. There is a great deal of effort underway to make the 2016 Scale Nationals a first rate contest.

Last year Burt Brokaw was the only C/L Scale competitor who flew in other C/L events. Grant Hiestand flew C/L Scale and R/C Fun Scale. It would be nice to have more folks like Burt and Grant, but I don't see any trend in that direction.

P.S. I stand corrected. Allen Goff flew Precision Aerobatics and C/L Scale.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 08:54:02 PM by Bob Heywood »
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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2015, 09:10:25 PM »
Ironman,RC scale etc fly overs what ever. Why not have those guys move dates.

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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2015, 09:13:43 PM »
Bob Whitney has stated that the schedule change knocks him out of scale, he flies 1/2a
Also Sparky who runs our very own Stunt hanger was going to enter scale for the first time in 2016 and he won't make the trip for the CL scale in June.
By my count we have lost 3 entries due to the schedule change (this includes Burt in Fun Scale).

Since Allen lives in Muncie he has a short drive to the flying field for Aerobatics and Scale so he can easily attend both events. Most people have to budget in vacation time and hotel rooms.

Fred
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 2016 NATS
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2015, 11:10:57 AM »
Couldn't they have moved the RC events around to accommodate the scale event.  But I guess the old saying holds,  money talks.
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