Sigment replacement

[Dave Nyce]

A few years ago, the Sig company sent me about 20 tubes of Sigment glue for the kids at the foster care center to use in building their 1/2A control line models.  We used some Sigment, and some super glue (I applied the super glue, to avoid the kids getting stuck).  Now the Sigment is used up.  So I asked the Sig company if I could buy 20 tubes of Sigment and receive a quantity discount, or a discount for the charity use.  But was told that I could only buy it at the regular price.  Does anyone know of a similar type of glue that can be available wholesale, or with a quantity discount?  I found some in China, but with an $80 shipping charge due to the solvent base.

[bill bischoff]

Do you buy from any hobby shop that sells Sig products? I'll bet if you explained your situation to a Sig dealer, you might get some traction. Offer to buy a box quantity, and pay up front, and they may very well give you a better deal than normal price. When I worked at a hobby shop we were always willing to give people a deal on prepaid special orders.

Bill Bischoff

[frank williams]

https://www.3riversarchery.com/nitrocellulose-adhesive-fletching-glue.html

try this stuff .... its clear but when put into the glue gun and exposed to light it turns Ambroid color.....   

[Dan McEntee]

  All the previous suggestions are good, and i was reading an article by Bill Warner some where recently about working with kids in groups. He mentioned a glue available at WalMart that comes in a small tube, is white in color but dries clear and is just called "multi-purpose cement. Solvent free, low odor, water clean up. It's not a white glue like Elmer's. The tubes are small, good for small hands! It was pretty inexpensive if I remember correctly. Do a search on eBay for Ambroid, and some other fletching glue comes up, at least the last time I did a search it did.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Jack Pitcher]

I've been using Beacon 527 Multi-Use Glue. Comes in a roll-up tube and looks and smells and acts just like Sigment. It's readily available at Jo-Ann Fabrics, Michaels and similar type craft stores.

[Dave Nyce]

Thanks. I will probably buy Sigment. Yes, they were good to us in the past. I was just trying to find a quantity price because I have to have enough money for 25 airplane kits, engines, supplies, etc., several times per year.

[Norm Furutani]

I suggest using Titebond, aliphatic glue. It's safer for kids to use, odor free and water clean-up. Drys about the same speed and has good tack. It is also tougher in use, not as brittle. Available in various sizes  from a few ounces to gallon. Put the glue in a small paper or plastic cup and apply with a craft stick. Looks like a quart is around $8.

Norm

[Brett Buck]

I suggest using Titebond, aliphatic glue. It's safer for kids to use, odor free and water clean-up. Drys about the same speed and has good tack. It is also tougher in use, not as brittle. Available in various sizes  from a few ounces to gallon. Put the glue in a small paper or plastic cup and apply with a craft stick. Looks like a quart is around $8.

   I agree, even all else being equal, the tackiness is an important factor. I would caution everyone that while Titebond 1 (the original yellow type) has very good tack, Titebond II is a different kettle of fish, it has very minimal tackiness and has to be held in place somehow until it fully cures a lot like model cement. It's also a bit rubbery when dry. I don't think the water-resistance of II is of much value.

     I would also add that Titebond is clearly much tougher than PVA (like Elmer's Glue (white)) and I would never use Elmer's for anything if Titebond or Elmer's Carpenter's Wood Glue (same as Titebond) was available.

      Brett

[Dan Berry]

I would agree with the Titebond recommendation.
It sets fast enough and five bucks worth would build 25 of those planes and have plenty left for repairs.

[Dave Nyce]

I also buy the 1/2A Skyray kits from Sig, because their regular price is good.

[Dave Nyce]

Isn't Titebond a lot heavier than Sigment?  I know a lot of people say it doesn't matter because it's only half-A, but I like the planes to fly well.  With a Cox .049 Babe Bee, the planes we build can do loops and figure eights. 

[Dan Berry]

Titebond would be minimally heavier. I cannot imagine that it could add 1/4 oz to a 1/2A Skyray even if it was applied with a mop.

[Norm Furutani]

If you wanted to stay with Sig products, Sig also sells Sigbond. An aliphatic much like, if not the same as Titebond. See: http://www.sigmfg.com/cgi-bin/dpsmart.exe/IndexText/FSIGSB001.html?E+Sig

[Brett Buck]

Isn't Titebond a lot heavier than Sigment?  I know a lot of people say it doesn't matter because it's only half-A, but I like the planes to fly well.  With a Cox .049 Babe Bee, the planes we build can do loops and figure eights.

  I doubt that it's lighter once you pre-glue, glue, then double-glue the stressed areas (none of which is necessary with Titebond), but, honestly, how much glue could you possibly put on a 1/2A. Unless you slop it around, it's a few grams at most even if you use J-B Weld.

     Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Another vote for Titebond.  Getting a light, strong joint with it vs. a celluloid glue is probably 6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other, because with the celluloid glue you've got the whole pre-coat, coat (and double-coat, if you're being paranoid) business, while with Titebond you just need to put on a thin-enough layer.

You may also want to consider Gorilla Glue.  It's also going to take a bit of work to get the lightest & tightest joint -- but since it foams up, any excess will bubble out to where it's easy enough to wipe off.  I've been using it a lot lately for repairs on styrofoam wings (and the occasional balsa bit).  I'm very pleased with it.

Get the green stuff, or the white foaming stuff (it's clear coming out of the bottle).  Gorilla Glue is starting to slap their brand on a lot of other glues, so you have to pay attention in the store.

Titebond or Gorilla glue, one medium-small bottle should be enough for a dozen airplanes.

[Jim Kraft]

The one place I like cement over the other glues is where sheeting comes together. It is much easier to sand without leaving a ridge. All the others tend to leave a ridge that is harder which allows the balsa to sand down but leave the glue ridge. Just my two cents.

[Brett Buck]

The one place I like cement over the other glues is where sheeting comes together. It is much easier to sand without leaving a ridge. All the others tend to leave a ridge that is harder which allows the balsa to sand down but leave the glue ridge. Just my two cents.

  For that, I much prefer Cyanoacrylate, you can just run a bead down the middle of the sheet, fold it over to close the joint (which you have carefully hinged with masking tape), and you are done in a few seconds. You can't allow it to squeeze out on to the surface, but aside from that, it's much more satisfactory for my purposes. As long as it remains in a line or a bubble, you can scrape it off with a credit card and sand it easily.

  With Ambroid/SIGMENT/UHU you will still have a problem if it spreads out on the surface, and you definitely want to wait a week or two to sand it because if you sand it the next day, it will continue to shrink and leave a line. Ambroid will also tend to bleed through dope finishes and leave an orange streak, but you can usually cover that up. SIGMENT and UHU don't sand all that well, SIGMENT being particularly gummy/plasticky/flexible by model cement standards.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

  For that, I much prefer Cyanoacrylate, you can just run a bead down the middle of the sheet, fold it over to close the joint (which you have carefully hinged with masking tape), and you are done in a few seconds. You can't allow it to squeeze out on to the surface, but aside from that, it's much more satisfactory for my purposes. As long as it remains in a line or a bubble, you can scrape it off with a credit card and sand it easily.

But the joint is rock hard. Do you just not allow the glue to get to the surface you're going to sand?

[Norm Furutani]

Something that I think has not been mentioned, is the use of solvent based cellulose glue and CA around a bunch of kids. Even if done in jest, you are probably going to have kids "sniffing" the glue and that is not the image you want for your youth program. CA has it's own potential for mischief, use your imagination and it probably has been done!

Stick with the carpenters glue- pun intended!

Norm, retired HS teacher

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello Anyone tried Ceconite Super Seam cement which is a full size aircraft cement that has replaced the old Rand-O-Bond nitrate cement, it is a vinyl based cement that is supposed to be twice the strength of nitrate cement? I have used full size dope and cement as the few hobby shops here in New Zealand and they just want to sell you ARF's or toys not modelling supplies. Otherwise they only sell tiny quantities at crazy prices (ie hobby shop quart of dope costs a twice as much as a gallon Randolph dope).

Regards Gerald

[Mike Keville]

Duco cement.

[Brett Buck]

But the joint is rock hard. Do you just not allow the glue to get to the surface you're going to sand?

  It sands fine unless you let it run out onto the surface. The bond line itself is tiny and a thousandth of an inch or less wide, unless you are using the paper "loose", there will be no issue sanding it. The only time you will have a problem sanding any of these glues is when they are allowed to run out on the surface and then, sanding it will cause the balsa to compress, underneath the glue, which will then spring back.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Duco cement.

   SIGMENT and Duco might be the same thing! 

    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

   SIGMENT and Duco might be the same thing! 

    Brett

I hung out with a group of indoor free-flight guys for a while, and thinned Duco cement was the only thing they used.  Not Sigment, not Ambroid, just Duco and acetone.

I don't know, however, if there's really a difference or if it was just the style of the group.

[Randy Cuberly]

Here's another vote for Titebond.  I've been using it for just about everything on stunt ships and free flights for many years.  I buy it in quarts and keep it in the refrigerator.  I then transfer small amounts into small plastic bottles available almost anywhere.  I don't advise it for large area of laminations or for engine mounts (epoxy for all of these), but for all framing or planking etc., it is great stuff and easy to use.  Especially great for kids because it washes off of fingers etc.  It's much stronger than any of the old school adhesives and easier to use.  Also like Johnny Bench says "An' Ya' won't Stink!"!

 

Randy Cuberly

[Dave Harmon]

Many, many times I have had the need to edge glue 36" 1/16" thick sheets for wing skins.
The biggest problem is getting the edges square and straight to each other so there is no gap for the glue to leak through.
You can apply scotch tape in an attempt to seal the joint but there is always some glue that leaks through to the tape making a non-sandable line as Jim says.
I stopped using CA glue for this purpose long ago.
Now I use Ambroid.....recently I got lucky and got 8 large tubes from Hobby Town....forget it....they don't have any more.

The tool I use to make square and straight joints on sheets of wood or thicker parts where the edge has to be perfect....is a sanding tool.
It is a 1" aluminum angle 48" long from Lowes or Home Despot with sticky back paper full length.
I screw this angle to a flat (in my case) piece of aluminum 48" long using a washer on each screw to provide a small space for the sawdust to fall through. I use a shop vac to clean it out.
I suppose a piece of red oak could be used instead of the flat piece of aluminum I used....the big deal is to get a 90 degree angle to butt the sheet balsa against.
This forms a nice 90 degree angle and makes a perfect straight square line.
I use a piece of wax paper under the sheet of 1/16" or whatever it is that is being trued up....then I use a sanding bar (with sandpaper) to slide the edge of the wood back and forth along the aluminum angle. (that has the sticky back paper)
Keep a even pressure against the aluminum angle full length of the sheet.
Usually I sand in only one direction to avoid bowing the straight line caused by uneven pressure on each end.

First though....I use a straight edge and new single edge razor blade to trim the full length of the edge I am going to use.
I don't bother to trim the edge that is unused.

So....to get back to the non-sandable line....I use scotch tape to hold the sheets together then slightly open the joint on the back side and apply a small amount of Ambroid. Then on the back apply more Ambroid and smear it flat with my finger...then wipe on my pants.
A little later I remove the tape and if there is any glue that leaked through I use a single edge razor blade to scrape off the large amount then wipe down the whole length of the joint with acetone. This is the side that faces the world.
Let it fully dry and sand the entire wing skin before applying to the wing.
This will result in a perfect skin with no glue joints to cause trouble later.
This is the same procedure I have previously used on wing skins for built up wings.
But....you have to sand the skins before applying to the wing....yes I know...I said that before.

The big deal here is the tool.
I tried for years to get a good edge joint and I never could do it until I made it up as described above.

[Dave Harmon]

Here's another vote for Titebond.  I've been using it for just about everything on stunt ships and free flights for many years.  I buy it in quarts and keep it in the refrigerator.  I then transfer small amounts into small plastic bottles available almost anywhere.  I don't advise it for large area of laminations or for engine mounts (epoxy for all of these), but for all framing or planking etc., it is great stuff and easy to use.  Especially great for kids because it washes off of fingers etc.  It's much stronger than any of the old school adhesives and easier to use.  Also like Johnny Bench says "An' Ya' won't Stink!"!

 

Randy Cuberly

That's right Randy....
I have been getting Carpenters glue in gallons and transferring to smaller glue bottles as you said.
Then to apply...I get these veterinarian syringes 4 for $1 and loading them up and having at it.
Don't know if this glue is the same as Titebond but it sure acts like it.....it sands well too.

[Randy Cuberly]

That's right Randy....
I have been getting Carpenters glue in gallons and transferring to smaller glue bottles as you said.
Then to apply...I get these veterinarian syringes 4 for $1 and loading them up and having at it.
Don't know if this glue is the same as Titebond but it sure acts like it.....it sands well too.

I think most of the glues called carpenters glue are the same as Sig "Titebond".  The only real exception I know of was mentioned earlier by Brett, and odd enough called Titebond II.  Its definitely different stuff and in my opinion not very good for our modeling usages. 

As you mentioned it also sands very well if allowed to dry for 24 hours in spite of the fact that it sets up to touch and just about 7-10 minutes.  I use it for edge gluing planking for foam wings after sealing with masking tape on one side.  Seal it then just fold the edges back a little an apply the glue then fold the edges back in place.  Works better than anything else I've used including the OLD Ambroid which I actually never liked very much.

Randy Cuberly

[frank williams]

I've got to try one more time.

HotStuff for wing skins creates little CA boulders that, when sanding, will scar up the surface.  Fast, yes, but ....

Ambroid is still the best for wing skins, imho.  ... for that matter the best for exposed glue joints that will need sanding.  It sands the best, hard, not gummy.

I know, Ambroid and Sigment are not to be found.
The archery nitrocellulose, if not Ambroid, is its second cousin.  It drys incredibly fast, looks like Ambroid, and chews off the fingers the same.  The price, if you buy a quart, comes out to about $1.50 a 2oz tube, much cheaper than either Sigment or Ambroid.

[Randy Cuberly]

I did want to clear up something about what I said previously.  I've been talking about "Titebond" and that's probably what it is but I realized just now after looking in my refrigerator in the shop that I've actually been using "SIG Bond" all these years.  At some point I must have switched and didn't even notice.  My honest belief is that's it's exactly the same thing.

I guess I'm just too dam old!

Randy Cuberly

[Randy Cuberly]

I've got to try one more time.

HotStuff for wing skins creates little CA boulders that, when sanding, will scar up the surface.  Fast, yes, but ....

Ambroid is still the best for wing skins, imho.  ... for that matter the best for exposed glue joints that will need sanding.  It sands the best, hard, not gummy.

I know, Ambroid and Sigment are not to be found.
The archery nitrocellulose, if not Ambroid, is its second cousin.  It drys incredibly fast, looks like Ambroid, and chews off the fingers the same.  The price, if you buy a quart, comes out to about $1.50 a 2oz tube, much cheaper than either Sigment or Ambroid.

Hi Frank,
Yeah, I've been using the Archery nitrocellulose stuff for many, many years for fletching and agree with you.
I guess it just never occurred to me to use it for modeling even though I noticed a long time ago that it seemed like Ambroid.  I just never liked Ambroid!  Don't really like chewing on my fingers. 

Randy Cuberly

[Brett Buck]

I've got to try one more time.

HotStuff for wing skins creates little CA boulders that, when sanding, will scar up the surface.  Fast, yes, but ....

   Which is why you scrape them off before you start sanding it, as suggested. And in any case, you get get a lot of that, you are using too much glue, the squeeze-out should be minimal. I have some pictures of how I did it that I can post later.

  The best reason to use Hot Stuff is that once is cures, its just acrylic plastic, and *doesn't move* over time, and is essentially unaffected by things you put over it.   That was the biggest problem with Ambroid and similar, it just never stopped shrinking.
 
    Brett

[mccoy40]

Many, many times I have had the need to edge glue 36" 1/16" thick sheets for wing skins.
The biggest problem is getting the edges square and straight to each other so there is no gap for the glue to leak through.
You can apply scotch tape in an attempt to seal the joint but there is always some glue that leaks through to the tape making a non-sandable line as Jim says.
I stopped using CA glue for this purpose long ago.
Now I use Ambroid.....recently I got lucky and got 8 large tubes from Hobby Town....forget it....they don't have any more.

The tool I use to make square and straight joints on sheets of wood or thicker parts where the edge has to be perfect....is a sanding tool.
It is a 1" aluminum angle 48" long from Lowes or Home Despot with sticky back paper full length.
I screw this angle to a flat (in my case) piece of aluminum 48" long using a washer on each screw to provide a small space for the sawdust to fall through. I use a shop vac to clean it out.
I suppose a piece of red oak could be used instead of the flat piece of aluminum I used....the big deal is to get a 90 degree angle to butt the sheet balsa against.
This forms a nice 90 degree angle and makes a perfect straight square line.
I use a piece of wax paper under the sheet of 1/16" or whatever it is that is being trued up....then I use a sanding bar (with sandpaper) to slide the edge of the wood back and forth along the aluminum angle. (that has the sticky back paper)
Keep a even pressure against the aluminum angle full length of the sheet.
Usually I sand in only one direction to avoid bowing the straight line caused by uneven pressure on each end.

First though....I use a straight edge and new single edge razor blade to trim the full length of the edge I am going to use.
I don't bother to trim the edge that is unused.

So....to get back to the non-sandable line....I use scotch tape to hold the sheets together then slightly open the joint on the back side and apply a small amount of Ambroid. Then on the back apply more Ambroid and smear it flat with my finger...then wipe on my pants.
A little later I remove the tape and if there is any glue that leaked through I use a single edge razor blade to scrape off the large amount then wipe down the whole length of the joint with acetone. This is the side that faces the world.
Let it fully dry and sand the entire wing skin before applying to the wing.
This will result in a perfect skin with no glue joints to cause trouble later.
This is the same procedure I have previously used on wing skins for built up wings.
But....you have to sand the skins before applying to the wing....yes I know...I said that before.

The big deal here is the tool.
I tried for years to get a good edge joint and I never could do it until I made it up as described above.

Ditto ! - The sanding bar is one of my best tools! - I sand both sheets at the same time to eliminate angle variance in case I'm not completely perpendicular to the bar.

I also use gallons of white Glue and put it in smaller bottles as well.  I also use a small peanut butter jar of thinned white glue for Painting and also for extra fine gluing -  usually I second glue a lot of my joints

     

[Jim Kraft]

I also use a straight edge to true up the sheets, and then use masking tape to hold them together. Fold back a little and apply either Duco or Sigment. Works for me. The first few sanding strokes are across the joint instead of with the joint. That takes anything off I missed and leaves it all smooth. Old habits are hard to change and CYA and I do not get along very well. I am allergic to the regular stuff and even the other kind if I use it very long. I do use it some places, but use Sig Bond for building with cement here and there. Epoxy for motor mounts, installing wings, and for wing fillets.