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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Matt Curtis on September 11, 2021, 08:03:02 AM
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Out of stock no word on when it will be available. I assume brodak is available? If not are there other sources?
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I don't t5hink that you will like the Brodak Silkspan.
The guys in Houston swear by the doctor exam bench paper.
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Go with Poy-Span. It is much tougher and easier to apply. D>K
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Do a search on here for exam table paper, doc span, silk span substitute and the like. there were several long threads about what to get and where to get it. There are specific brands and part numbers that work the best. Even googling exam table paper will get you some results.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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When "real" silkspan disappeared, I went to Polyspan on Tom Morris's suggestion and never regretted it. I have used the heavy grade Jap tissue in colors from SIG and had good luck with it also. I tried the so called Silkspan from Brodak, once, and ended up ripping it off the airplane. I do not know what that stuff is but it is not silkspan.
Mike
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Interesting how everyone’s experience is different. I’ve used the Brodak offerings in recent years and it was fine. One of these days I’ll have to give polyspan a try. Never tried it.
Gary
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Interesting how everyone’s experience is different. I’ve used the Brodak offerings in recent years and it was fine. One of these days I’ll have to give polyspan a try. Never tried it.
Gary
Yes, everyone's experience is different.
I've tried all these covering products, even back in my R/C days using silk span on my Wayfarer Bipe and my Wizard Bipe. Yes my sport models we're mostly biplanes.
CL, all I use now is silk.
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Interesting how everyone’s experience is different. I’ve used the Brodak offerings in recent years and it was fine. One of these days I’ll have to give polyspan a try. Never tried it.
Gary
You will love it the second time you use it.
Ken
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You will love it the second time you use it.
Ken
Why do you guys avoid using "silk?"
I've tried them all, and I find silk much easier to apply and work with, especially now that I've found a way to apply it dry with CA, in minutes per wing. This means I can do an entire model in less than a half hour, ready for clear dope.
Also, and I've mentioned this before, I fill the weave in only three coats.
All "paper" coverings are so easy to tare, but you cannot tear silk. Silk is much stronger than all the others. Plus, if you sand through the clear, you can "hear" the silk. I sand no clear till I have three coats in my open bays anyway.
Sure, silk weighs 11 grams more than the others per sq. yard, but, as I said, I find silk fills in three coats. Obviously this would vary depending on the mix. I only use Sig products.
You don't have to be concerned as to what side is up or down, and I can buy 5 yards of silk for 15 bucks, offered in many colors.
Polyspan doesn't work well around wing tips. And silk lays down better on sheeted areas, especially areas which also taper, compound curved areas like many of the fuselages I design into my models.
I have a feeling no one does "tests" any more?
Putting the time in doing my own tests is why I graduated to only using silk. Plus the tests I did using CA.
I'm sold on silk and the way I apply it because all the other coverings didn't give me the results I'm looking for with my models.
Someplace in this Build I have text and photos explaining how I apply silk. And this model has no "flat" areas.
Here's the last model I silked using CA to cover the wing open bays, and silk was used to cover the rest of the sheeted areas, applied with Deft Lacquer wood sealer. All coats forced dried with a heat gun. Saves time.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/cfc-graphics/gee-bee-r-3-build!-semi-scale-cl-stunter!/
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Why do you guys avoid using "silk?"
I've tried them all, and I find silk much easier to apply and work with, especially now that I've found a way to apply it dry with CA, in minutes per wing. This means I can do an entire model in less than a half hour, ready for clear dope.
Also, and I've mentioned this before, I fill the weave in only three coats.
All "paper" coverings are so easy to tare, but you cannot tear silk. Silk is much stronger than all the others. Plus, if you sand through the clear, you can "hear" the silk. I sand no clear till I have three coats in my open bays anyway.
Sure, silk weighs 11 grams more than the others per sq. yard, but, as I said, I find silk fills in three coats. Obviously this would vary depending on the mix. I only use Sig products.
You don't have to be concerned as to what side is up or down, and I can buy 5 yards of silk for 15 bucks, offered in many colors.
Polyspan doesn't work well around wing tips. And silk lays down better on sheeted areas, especially areas which also taper, compound curved areas like many of the fuselages I design into my models.
I have a feeling no one does "tests" any more?
Putting the time in doing my own tests is why I graduated to only using silk. Plus the tests I did using CA.
I'm sold on silk and the way I apply it because all the other coverings didn't give me the results I'm looking for with my models.
Someplace in this Build I have text and photos explaining how I apply silk. And this model has no "flat" areas.
Here's the last model I silked using CA to cover the wing open bays, and silk was used to cover the rest of the sheeted areas, applied with Deft Lacquer wood sealer. All coats forced dried with a heat gun. Saves time.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/cfc-graphics/gee-bee-r-3-build!-semi-scale-cl-stunter!/
I have never been able to seal silk in three coats. More like 6 before all of the pinholes are gone. Polyspan does it in 3 using my way of doing it (which may work on silk as well). As for compound curves, polyspan works pretty much like MonoKote and you can cover a tip with less effort than silkspan. Silk sands better. I used silk back in the 60's and 70's. Not since. We all have our favorites and silk is fine.
Ken
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Why use silk? Lightweight nylon is much tougher and I don't imagine it's any more difficult to apply than silk. I've just covered a small stunt trainer (to be flown over a rough grass field) in nylon, and it went on easily enough over a pre-doped structure, attached using very thin dope brushed through the fabric, just as you'd apply tissue. It took five or six (I forget which) coats of clear to seal it properly, however.
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Why use silk? Lightweight nylon is much tougher and I don't imagine it's any more difficult to apply than silk. I've just covered a small stunt trainer (to be flown over a rough grass field) in nylon, and it went on easily enough over a pre-doped structure, attached using very thin dope brushed through the fabric, just as you'd apply tissue. It took five or six (I forget which) coats of clear to seal it properly, however.
"Why use silk?"
For it's strength, silk is the best choice for weight. 11 grams per sq yard. Nylon is heavy, .75 ounces per square yard, just like glass cloth. And, by your comments alone, it takes twice as much clear dope to seal nylon. That's twice the weight and time.
And you guys care about weight.
I cover silk in three coats, and as I said, this can vary per individual.
Gotta remember, I use a primer after dope which also seals the material. So does a coat of paint. And both get sanded before the next coat.
"Pin holes." so few with silk, but another "coat" of clear dope or primer isn't the cure, just a dab of primer on the pin hole.
Pin holes! The paper materials have larger areas to fill.
Use what you want or rewrite the book. IDC.
I use silk and I have excellent reasons to do so.
Oh, and BTW, I covered the wing of my gee Bee Z with silkspan and wish I didn't.
I also removed the silkspan I had on my Casino Royal to replace it with silk. I mention this in the Build.
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Several years back I dabbled extensively with doctor paper and ended using it for covering solid surfaces. It's available in a variety of weights, I tried to use the lightest and closest to silkspan I could find and it worked ok. Some have tested it over open bays with good results in shrinkage and taughtening but in my opinion it would not have the tensile strength of silkspan because it doesn't have the fibrous texture. Once wet, during application when you slightly pull to remove the wrinkles it will easily pull apart like toilet paper. It does sand down like silkspan and fills the same using dope.
I have used silk on open bays for years and yes it does take more material to fill the pores in the weave, I have only used 5MM weight. To fill after several coats of dope I've used the NAPA spray primer after years of using talc sanding sealer but this adds too much weight. I don't like sanding silk even using 400, if you rub through especially at the rib edges it's not easy to make a nonvisible repair as easily as with silkspan. Silk doesn't sand off but more so frays requiring more primer to fill the repair. Overall silk in my opinion makes for a heavier build. I have never used Polyspan which fills easily, and plan to this winter build season; I have had great results applying Monokote so using heat should not be a challenge.
I don't see how lightweight nylon would work in place of silk. Silk is a natural fiber that shrinks after being wet while nylon is a synthetic chemical based material impervious to water and many solvents. A hundred years ago I came across some nylon from an old army parachute. It would not shrink using butyrate dope, it was stronger than hell but was full of wrinkles.
Steve
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Why do you guys avoid using "silk?"
I've tried them all, and I find silk much easier to apply and work with, especially now that I've found a way to apply it dry with CA, in minutes per wing. This means I can do an entire model in less than a half hour, ready for clear dope.
Also, and I've mentioned this before, I fill the weave in only three coats.
All "paper" coverings are so easy to tare, but you cannot tear silk. Silk is much stronger than all the others. Plus, if you sand through the clear, you can "hear" the silk. I sand no clear till I have three coats in my open bays anyway.
Sure, silk weighs 11 grams more than the others per sq. yard, but, as I said, I find silk fills in three coats. Obviously this would vary depending on the mix. I only use Sig products.
You don't have to be concerned as to what side is up or down, and I can buy 5 yards of silk for 15 bucks, offered in many colors.
Polyspan doesn't work well around wing tips. And silk lays down better on sheeted areas, especially areas which also taper, compound curved areas like many of the fuselages I design into my models.
I have a feeling no one does "tests" any more?
Putting the time in doing my own tests is why I graduated to only using silk. Plus the tests I did using CA.
I'm sold on silk and the way I apply it because all the other coverings didn't give me the results I'm looking for with my models.
Someplace in this Build I have text and photos explaining how I apply silk. And this model has no "flat" areas.
Here's the last model I silked using CA to cover the wing open bays, and silk was used to cover the rest of the sheeted areas, applied with Deft Lacquer wood sealer. All coats forced dried with a heat gun. Saves time.
https://stunthanger.com/smf/cfc-graphics/gee-bee-r-3-build!-semi-scale-cl-stunter!/
What brand and weight of silk do you recommend charles? I used it once years ago and will am willing to give it another test. As for why CL guys seem to like silkspan, my guess is weight. Its so easy to have a 'lead sled' if you dont remove every extra gram of weight during the building and finishing process.
Kevin.
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For it's strength, silk is the best choice for weight. 11 grams per sq yard.
If I could get silk that weighed eleven grams per square yard, I might give it a try. All the same, at that weight it can't be very strong - on free-flight scale models of World War 1 machines, I've seen it applied over tissue just to give it a bit more resistance to splitting, and that was very probably a heavier grade than 11g./sq. yd.
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If I could get silk that weighed eleven grams per square yard, I might give it a try. All the same, at that weight it can't be very strong - on free-flight scale models of World War 1 machines, I've seen it applied over tissue just to give it a bit more resistance to splitting, and that was very probably a heavier grade than 11g./sq. yd.
John, I agree. Silk was a great tool "Back in the Day" where finish was not paramount. You had to be sooo careful sanding around ribs that it was almost impossible to get the same finish we spray on today and one slipup and you were screwed. Nearly impossible to flare in a silk patch on an open area. It was good directly over balsa where it couldn't help but get filled but on an open bay I have used as many as 6 coats of full strength sig dope before the holes were filled. I have since learned how to flash dry an open area learning to use polyspan which seals quicker. Good but too heavy for our already overweight planes of today.
Ken
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What brand and weight of silk do you recommend charles? I used it once years ago and will am willing to give it another test. As for why CL guys seem to like silkspan, my guess is weight. Its so easy to have a 'lead sled' if you dont remove every extra gram of weight during the building and finishing process.
Kevin.
There's plenty of guys buying their silk here... As I do.
https://www.dharmatrading.com/fabric/silk/silk-habotai-5mm.html?lnav=fabric_silk.html
Weight is always saved with choice wood used sparingly, don't over build. Plus, the finish can add plenty of weight if you're not careful.
Weight, I only had one model which came in over 55 ounces because I used 3/32 sheeting everywhere, cap strips and all. A mistake I'll never make again. And I over built it.
Sanding? Stay off the rib edges and sheeting edges, nothing difficult about that. Or, mask the edges off.
I've always had issues filling Polyspan and silk span with my tests. Just look at it!! The "weave" is lose as a goose, If it was a better choice than silk, I'd be using it!
Like I said, the way I apply "SIG" clear dope, I can cover in three coats, primer can do the rest, and you will need primer, but most of it gets removed in the fine sanding process.
Eliminate the "silver" coat of paint also, there's a weight saver. LL~ LL~
This is all 101 stuff.
If you're not using SIG? Good luck.
And remember, I no longer wet silk to apply it and I use CA. Drum tight and a wing section takes minutes once you get the hang of working with CA.
I put up a link on using CA to apply silk and another modeler, who also uses this method, explained it better than I did. I did this first on my Gee Bee Z fuselage.
I don't do videos but I do talk to modelers over the phone.
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The general solution to silkspan is Polyspan, which is *extremely tough* and fills easily.
Brett
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I have used the heavy grade Jap tissue in colors from SIG and had good luck with it also.
Mike
Mike,
Does the colored heavy grade Jap tissue from Sig fade pretty quickly?
Joe Ed Pederson
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If you are looking for "real" silkspan, try Easy Built Models. They have a medium weight silkspan that is just like the product we remember from long ago. I use it on bare wood.
If I am covering a wing with open bays, I will use polyspan or Thermalspan. Be careful if you are going with polyspan. I have come across some polyspan clones that are terrible. Inconsistent density and some areas had rather large voids that you could never fill up with dope.
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Several years back I dabbled extensively with doctor paper and ended using it for covering solid surfaces. It's available in a variety of weights, I tried to use the lightest and closest to silkspan I could find and it worked ok. Some have tested it over open bays with good results in shrinkage and taughtening but in my opinion it would not have the tensile strength of silkspan because it doesn't have the fibrous texture. Once wet, during application when you slightly pull to remove the wrinkles it will easily pull apart like toilet paper. It does sand down like silkspan and fills the same using dope.
Steve
It depends on what brand and part number you use. The stuff I got from TIDI came in two weights and we compared them to actual samples of K&S vintage silk span for weight and such. Both weights have a grain that runs the length of the roll. I could fully submerge both in a pan of water, grab it by the corners, and shake off excess water with no tearing. All this is in a couple of threads on the subject in the forums. Any one interested in trying it should search those out and get the part numbers straight before buying any. The main reason for using silk span has always been because it was cheaper than anything else for use on expendable models. While learning the pattern you know you are going to crash. Silk span can be repaired easier and cheaper that polyspan. I like polyspan and use it but silk span has it's place still.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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If you are looking for "real" silkspan, try Easy Built Models. They have a medium weight silkspan that is just like the product we remember from long ago. I use it on bare wood.
If I am covering a wing with open bays, I will use polyspan or Thermalspan. Be careful if you are going with polyspan. I have come across some polyspan clones that are terrible. Inconsistent density and some areas had rather large voids that you could never fill up with dope.
Jim, a little caution with this. I thought it was the answer too and had suggested it to others. However after some time of curing and shrinking I discovered it would puncture and shred effortlessly with hardly a touch. It is likely doctor paper with no cloth fiber and no grain or strength. My best option turned out to be Guillow’s tissue as used in their kits. You could buy it packaged but I think I got the last of the stock available a while back. I think I have enough for a couple more ships. I found a little stash of the REAL medium silkspan at an estate sale- that should last another couple years. I like silk especially for trainers because it can save a few re-builds but it’s weight with dope and the other issues mentioned keeps it off my competition planes.
Dave
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Mike,
Does the colored heavy grade Jap tissue from Sig fade pretty quickly?
Joe Ed Pederson
Depends on the color, blue seems to fade very quickly. David had a sharp-looking blue/white Trivial Pursuit (Star Gazer) that unfortunately faded to white in short order (a few years). The only place it didn't was where he touched up a bare spot with a Sharpie.
The product name (if we are on the same page) is "plyspan", it is as described, like heavy Japanese tissue.
Brett
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Thanks for the info. I will only use silkspan on solid wood areas not on open wing bays. Would like to get light as recommended by Doug Moon. I apply it with minwax polyac uh rylic which is what he uses.
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Depends on the color, blue seems to fade very quickly. David had a sharp-looking blue/white Trivial Pursuit (Star Gazer) that unfortunately faded to white in short order (a few years). The only place it didn't was where he touched up a bare spot with a Sharpie.
The product name (if we are on the same page) is "plyspan", it is as described, like heavy Japanese tissue.
Brett
Thanks, Brett. Yes, we are on the same page. I just checked the label on the tissue I have it and it says in full: "Super-Flite Plyspan." I have some white, yellow, and red.
Joe Ed
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Jim, a little caution with this. I thought it was the answer too and had suggested it to others. However after some time of curing and shrinking I discovered it would puncture and shred effortlessly with hardly a touch. It is likely doctor paper with no cloth fiber and no grain or strength. My best option turned out to be Guillow’s tissue as used in their kits. You could buy it packaged but I think I got the last of the stock available a while back. I think I have enough for a couple more ships. I found a little stash of the REAL medium silkspan at an estate sale- that should last another couple years. I like silk especially for trainers because it can save a few re-builds but it’s weight with dope and the other issues mentioned keeps it off my competition planes.
Dave
How long ago did you get this silkspan? Maybe there has been a change in the product. The Easy Built Models silkspan I have has a grain. I have been getting this silkspan for a few years.
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Hey Joe; If you are using it for trim, you may want to look into dying the tissue/docpsan, whatever. Even if you are using polyspan and just going to clear coat it, died tissue using Rit Dye might last longer. Just follow the directions but don't use boiling water. Some colors you have to dip more than once to get the color you want. You should be able to just cut out your patterns and dope it down.
See you Friday,
Dan McEntee
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How long ago did you get this silkspan? Maybe there has been a change in the product. The Easy Built Models silkspan I have has a grain. I have been getting this silkspan for a few years.
Jim I had bought several orders of it about 1 1/2- 2 years ago. It came in a ten foot length by whatever width a doctor exam table is- 20 something inches off the roll.
Dave
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Just a short word on Brodak silkspan.
When I went to use it I noticed that the grain was going along the width of the sheet instead of along the length.
I had to cover each panel with 2 pieces.
I butted the sheets together and after doping it is invisible.
The entire job came out very well.
The grain going the wrong way might be the cause of some Brodak SS giving poor results.
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I've used the Easy Built Models medium silk span on 6 planes over the last 4 or 5 years and I have had no issues. I do, however, double cover open bays.
Don
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Just a short word on Brodak silkspan.
When I went to use it I noticed that the grain was going along the width of the sheet instead of along the length.
I don't know anything about Brodak silkspan, but all the vintage silkspan I have is the same way, it always goes the short way.
Brett
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I don't know anything about Brodak silkspan, but all the vintage silkspan I have is the same way, it always goes the short way.
Brett
You mean all those planes i built with sags between the ribs were MY FAULT!
Ken :(