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Author Topic: SIG Banshee  (Read 7517 times)

Offline andreas johansson

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SIG Banshee
« on: March 27, 2009, 08:00:21 AM »
Hi guys!

Its been a long time since I last wrote anything on this forum, but now Iḿ back :-) I havnt flown much either, small children tends to take up all available time.... and in about two months my second child will be born.

Anyways, I have bought a SIG Banshee kit as an addition to my Noblers. I wanted an profile aircraft as its easier to repair and to maintain plus that I like the look of the Banshee.
I will use either an Brodak .40 or an OS 35FP-S, I have both engines on the shelf.
From what I have understood its recommended to shorten the nose of the Banshee about 1-1.5" (no, I will not move the wing). Are there anymore changes that I must make? I plan to build the aircraft as it looks on the box (apart from the shortened nose), Iĺl probably even use the same paintscheme.

Thanks
Andreas
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2009, 08:26:25 AM »
How much you shorten the nose depends on which engine you use. It was designed for a 7.5oz Fox 35 and was a bit long even for that engine (though not much). So figure you'll need to take off between a half and one inch for every ounce more than that.

I increase the size of the stab and elevator on mine, but I don't know that it's critical. The tail moment is pretty long.
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Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2009, 08:29:53 AM »
The Banshee is a great flyer right out of the box.  Making the nose 1" shorter is probably the the best mod you could do. However, if you really want to get the max out of this plane, lengthen the tail moment 1/2"-1" and add 2" of span to the stab/elevator assembly. Also consider adding a 1/2" balsa cheek cowl to the inboard side of the nose. Lastly, ditch the wire landing gear in favor of some good aluminum or carbon gear.
Given your two engine choices, I'd go with the Brodak .40. Keep it light and good luck.
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Offline andreas johansson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2009, 08:34:03 AM »
Ok, I've read somewhere that the Brodak .40 weights about the same as the Fox .35 so I will use the B40 engine and take about an inch of the nose.

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Offline Jimmy R. Jacobs

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2009, 08:44:55 AM »
Hi Andreas.
   I have shorten the nose and not shorten the nose. The Banshee that I did not shorten the nose on I like best . What I did is built a wight box, I hope this helps.

                         Jimmy Jacobs

Offline Don Curry AMA 267060

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2009, 09:14:17 AM »
The one I built I shortened 1 1/2" and used an La .46. I have since changed to an La .40 because it did not need that much power. I am using an APC 11.5 x 4 prop and 4 oz. clunk tank on muffler pressure with a toung muffler. I still had to add 3/4 oz at the tail to balance halfway between the spar and leading edge. It is a very nice flying plane.
Don

Offline Clint Ormosen

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2009, 09:16:35 AM »
How much you shorten the nose depends on which engine you use. It was designed for a 7.5oz Fox 35 and was a bit long even for that engine (though not much). So figure you'll need to take off between a half and one inch for every ounce more than that.

Also, it was designed for the weight of the Fox without a muffler. So you have to consider that too.
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Offline andreas johansson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2009, 09:21:05 AM »
Hi

Guys, thanks for your kind answers!

How does the stock flap and aileron levers look like? (I havent recived my kit yet) Is it a wood connector between the flaps and a rudderhorn as a lever or is it the real deal?

Don: I will also use a 4 oz clunk tank, what brand and model of tank do you use? Dou you have a picture of your setup?

Andreas
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Offline Lee Thiel

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2009, 01:39:44 PM »
I just move the wing forward 1 1/2".  Makes longer moment, along with getting the balance more correct.  Have done this with all five of mine.
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Offline Don Curry AMA 267060

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2009, 03:34:42 PM »
The tank I used is a Du-Bro flex tank I'll try to down load some pictures later.

Don

Offline Phil Hawkins

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2009, 11:46:26 PM »
I agree with what engine you use will determine where the CG will need to be. I did the standard "shorten the nose by 1 inch" and it was not enough. (Mine flew great with an OS MAX-S .35 with muffler) You want the CG right where the plans say it should be, but achieve that by shortening the nose not adding tail weight.  Adjustable lead-out's can't hurt, tip weight box is easy enough, but the "as per plans" 1oz tip weight and lead-out location should be just about right anyway.

There will be enough wood on the stab/elevator sheet to gain about 1" width, you can do this but as already stated, it will fly great right out of the box (provided you are spot-on the CG)

Take care to get the hinges aligned on the flaps & elevator (a bind here will doom you to chronic control issues)
you will join the flaps with a pre bent wire joiner by drilling holes in the flaps (I use a small tap chuck with a *3/32 drill bit and slowly hand drill it)  It is a good idea to glass/epoxy this wire in place, if tweaking is required it can save you from having to repair a broken flap... Also, what ever the plans say to position the flap to elevator rods, do just the opposite. You want about 15% more throw on the elevator than the flap. Be sure you have true neutral in all controls (i.e., bellcrank, flaps, elevator) or it may hunt like crazy.

The wire landing gear will work but you must use a hard wood plug burried under the doublers where they will go through the fuse. The problem being over the course of time the brass tube that joins the two halves bends inside the soft balsa and the landing gear goes wacko, no amount of epoxy will cure the problem. You can (as I did) add a second set of landing gear straps too.

The Sig Twister gets alot of attention as being "the next step up" from the Ringmaster/ Flight Streak/ Skyray 35 type planes, but I strongly prefer the Banshee. Just a sweet flying, relaxing (if all points covered are right on)  plane.

Recap: Get the CG right, get the controls true neutral and absolutely bind free, 15% more throw on the elevator than the flaps and fly all day!

Cheers! Phil

Offline andreas johansson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2009, 01:59:17 AM »
Hi

Why does I want 15% less trow on the flaps? I'll build it that way if I know why....

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Offline andreas johansson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2009, 02:43:54 AM »
To sum it up a bit I will try the following setup:

Nose cut enough to balance a Brodak .40 with tongue muffler
Weight box
Stock lead out position (no adjustable L-O guide)
Hardwood reinforcement for the landing gear

Flap - elevator "gearing" as per Phils suggestion?
carbon fibre pushrod?
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Offline mike hartung

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2009, 02:28:12 PM »
One of the best flying models I ever had was a box stock Banshee with a Fox .35. The only thing I did not care for was the muffler on the Fox.35 (made it run hot). Lost the plane in the top of a wing over with a glowplug flame-out.
blue skys and tail winds to all.

Offline Phil Hawkins

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2009, 03:33:27 PM »
If you have more throw on the flaps it will tend to stall. You will be using the flaps to control up/down more than the elevator. This is simply a matter of where you put the control rods. Use a 4-40 threaded rod at the very end of the elevator control rod and install a threaded clevis (be sure to use the little clip thingy to secure it on the horn) in doing this you will have a way to make changes in the controls and always find your neutral setting.

You can get away with an even throw on the flaps vs elevator (in fact your Nobler ARF is most likely sey up this way) and it will fly somewhere between good and great. But this Banshee (and the Twister too) will fly better with more elevator throw. If even just a little bit.

***This is a ***general rule for any flapped stunter. You want the elevator to do it's job of controling up/down... not the flaps.

The Banshee is a great plane. The maiden flight of the one I built flew like a tank. Hard to control, hunted like mad, and stalled noticably in the maneuvers. It also had an OS Max LA 40 up front.  I removed the 40 and replaced it with the MAX-S .35, rebalanced the plane (removing 2.25 oz of tail weight lead), got the flap/elevator ratio very near where I stated, and very importantly... got a near perfect neutral, and never touched the controls again. There is alot to be said for the right size plane for your flying style and ability. The Banshee was a real nice fit for me. The most relaxing and thereby the most teachable plane I have yet to own. I have two more kits and will be building one in the next year or so. I taught my son (then 12, now 14) to do loops and wingovers with this plane, he flew it 8 flights before smacking it in a straight 90*  That is why I have two kits, one for him one for me. But I think he has discovered girls so toy airplanes are just not his thing right now    n~


Online Brett Buck

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2009, 05:17:47 PM »
If you have more throw on the flaps it will tend to stall. You will be using the flaps to control up/down more than the elevator.
<<snip>>

You can get away with an even throw on the flaps vs elevator (in fact your Nobler ARF is most likely sey up this way) and it will fly somewhere between good and great. But this Banshee (and the Twister too) will fly better with more elevator throw. If even just a little bit.

***This is a ***general rule for any flapped stunter. You want the elevator to do it's job of controling up/down... not the flaps.

    I will have to disagree with this - the more flap you use, the *less* it will tend to stall, but the less it will want to rotate. You are right that the stock Twister and Banshee will *probably* do better with slightly more elevator motion that flap on average. But even that depends on the weight and engine - the heavier they are, and/or the weaker the engine, the more flap movement will be required*. That's because they have tiny tail volumes by current standards, and can't overcome the tendency to pitch the wrong way due to deflected flaps as much as if you had more tail volume. With sufficient tail volume you don't have to worry too much about flap deflections as far at that goes. You *do* have to deal with hinge moments and the Netzeband wall, that's the limiting factor.

   With a stock Twister or Banshee at a reasonable weight, they are a bit "flappy". With a Fox, that might be the best you could do, because if you reduce the flap travel, you lose so much speed in the corners that it will tend to stall. With a 40LA, or a 25FP, or similar, you will be able to handle less flap travel because the speed stays up in the corners, and be better off overall. The engines, and in particular, the low-pitch props, make the cornering much better, and that's why you see so many airplanes with 13 + oz/square foot wing loadings winning so much.

   It's not generally true that you want less flap than elevator motion, in fact, with experimentation some of us have found that the overall balance of the airplane is almost always better with 1:1 or slightly higher, and smaller flaps, than with large flaps with less deflection. The effect is that if my airplanes comes out a lot lighter than expected, and had too much flap, that I would prefer to replace the flaps with smaller ones instead of taking out the flap motion. Reducing the flap motion would be a good stopgap and we have done that but with removable flaps I would eventually replace them. I've gone the other direction, too

  Brett


*That's really why the weight kills models like these with small tail volumes - not that you can't get enough lift, but that if you put in sufficient flap travel to get enough lift, it opens the corners because of the negative pitching moment. Abnormally light airplanes can really benefit  from reduced flap travel.

Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2009, 05:32:28 PM »
Brett, that's interesting.  I've designed a number of 1/2A stunt models over the years.  They have gradually gotten larger with thicker wings.  And, not knowing why, I have gone to less and less flap deflection.  On a 200-225 square inch airplane I now use @10 degrees either way. 

One trick on the Twister and Banshee, I have used heavy coathanger wire to join the flaps, rather than the supplied wire.  It is strong enough not to distort, but can readily be tweaked if necessary. 

Offline Phil Hawkins

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2009, 12:46:48 AM »
    I will have to disagree with this - the more flap you use, the *less* it will tend to stall, but the less it will want to rotate. You are right that the stock Twister and Banshee will *probably* do better with slightly more elevator motion that flap on average. But even that depends on the weight and engine - the heavier they are, and/or the weaker the engine, the more flap movement will be required*. That's because they have tiny tail volumes by current standards, and can't overcome the tendency to pitch the wrong way due to deflected flaps as much as if you had more tail volume. With sufficient tail volume you don't have to worry too much about flap deflections as far at that goes. You *do* have to deal with hinge moments and the Netzeband wall, that's the limiting factor.

   With a stock Twister or Banshee at a reasonable weight, they are a bit "flappy". With a Fox, that might be the best you could do, because if you reduce the flap travel, you lose so much speed in the corners that it will tend to stall. With a 40LA, or a 25FP, or similar, you will be able to handle less flap travel because the speed stays up in the corners, and be better off overall. The engines, and in particular, the low-pitch props, make the cornering much better, and that's why you see so many airplanes with 13 + oz/square foot wing loadings winning so much.

   It's not generally true that you want less flap than elevator motion, in fact, with experimentation some of us have found that the overall balance of the airplane is almost always better with 1:1 or slightly higher, and smaller flaps, than with large flaps with less deflection. The effect is that if my airplanes comes out a lot lighter than expected, and had too much flap, that I would prefer to replace the flaps with smaller ones instead of taking out the flap motion. Reducing the flap motion would be a good stopgap and we have done that but with removable flaps I would eventually replace them. I've gone the other direction, too

  Brett


*That's really why the weight kills models like these with small tail volumes - not that you can't get enough lift, but that if you put in sufficient flap travel to get enough lift, it opens the corners because of the negative pitching moment. Abnormally light airplanes can really benefit  from reduced flap travel.


Perhaps my definition of "stall" is incorrect... It was through much experimentation (and several other much more experienced flyers) that I determined that more elevator than flap works **in general** for the Banshee I flew. As a result the planes I now have all have more elevator than flap and I guess I don't know any better than to fly that way. My NoblerARF, Fancherized Twister, Cardinal profile, and another un-named foam wing stunter all are set up this way. The 1:1 as shown on the Banshee plans did not corner nearly as smooth as the 15% more elevator... for me.

I did state however that ***this is a*** general rule.... 'cause I know the big guns are mostly set up 1:1.  Andreas will need to find what works best to his ability (just as I did/do) for the Banshee.

As Brett states: Weight is a real killer for these (or any for that matter) plane... I know, I know... don't need to tell me about the 5 oz added to the Tucker... 

Offline andreas johansson

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2009, 05:23:00 AM »
This forum really rocks, I'm amazed to see how much time and effort you guys put down to answer questions from an unknown swedish c/l pilot.

As for the flap "gearing" I will use ball links all around so I can easily try both 1:1 and 15%.

Do you think that a Sullivan RST 4 oz tank will be a good choice?

I think I have to visit Brodak's website and order sime small bits and pieces  ;D
 
Again, THANKS!

Andreas
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Offline tom hampshire

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2009, 05:48:49 AM »
Sorry to come in late... I'd suggest not shortening the nose at all.  Rather, keep the full fuse length to maximize the tail volume coefficient.  Take the wing plug, make a pattern of the airfoil, and glue the plug back in place.  Then use the pattern and an accurate centerline to cut a new wing opening at about 1.25 in. forward of the original.  Puts the CG in a better spot and helps with the throw ratio of flap to elevator travel because the tail moment is longer.  This isn't new, its  a direct ripoff of the Fancherized Twister.  Tom H.

Offline Phil Hawkins

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2009, 04:14:25 PM »
This forum really rocks, I'm amazed to see how much time and effort you guys put down to answer questions from an unknown swedish c/l pilot.

As for the flap "gearing" I will use ball links all around so I can easily try both 1:1 and 15%.

Do you think that a Sullivan RST 4 oz tank will be a good choice?

I think I have to visit Brodak's website and order sime small bits and pieces  ;D
 
Again, THANKS!

Andreas
Sweden

I still have about 3 feet of snow on the ground here in Montana USA so a bit of "cabin fever" is part of my day... But really I do like the Banshee and am always glad to see someone build one.  As you have noticed, there is always a bit of differering opinions as to what makes a given airplane fly best. But the main thing is to get the CG without a bunch of tail weight.

If you jump over to the Stuka Stunt web site (there is a simular forum there too) and search from the home page for an article from the web sight owner you will find a good write-up on the "bar-bell affect" ... that is a nose heavy plane that needs a bunch of tail weight to balance is still a nose heavy plane with extra weight added.

For more web sites try these:   www.clstunt.com       www.rsmdistribution.com     

RSM Distribution sells a "Chicken Hopper" uniflow tank that I have come to use on just about all my profile planes. It may not work for everybody but the profiles I have used them on all run great.

Keep us posted Andreas with your progress...

P.S. Also read the post on this forum "some of my findings" this is a good thread to help understand some of the engineering of control line planes... in my opinion.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2009, 04:53:48 PM »

Perhaps my definition of "stall" is incorrect... It was through much experimentation (and several other much more experienced flyers) that I determined that more elevator than flap works **in general** for the Banshee I flew. As a result the planes I now have all have more elevator than flap and I guess I don't know any better than to fly that way. My NoblerARF, Fancherized Twister, Cardinal profile, and another un-named foam wing stunter all are set up this way. The 1:1 as shown on the Banshee plans did not corner nearly as smooth as the 15% more elevator... for me.

     Oh, I don't disagree with that, but I was a little concerned with the over-generalization, and excess flap motion will certainly not cause a stall - quite the opposite.  If you limit yourself to that style of model with relatively small tail volume, then I would agree - although the Fancherized Twister is going to be able to handle a lot more flap, having flown the original quite a few times. But these types of models are not the norm, since at least the early 70's when the Gemini and Genesis came around.

   What you are doing is overcoming the limitations of the small tail volume the only way available to you - by adding elevator travel. Most of these type airplanes tend to  be more "swoopy" in the corners because you don't have enough tail volume to fight the flaps with 1:1, and you can't move the CG too far back because it will go unstable - once again because of inadequate tail volume. So you have a hair-trigger CG, and still not enough pitch authority. A lot of airplanes from the Nobler on suffered the same issue, with occasional exceptions where people cut down on the flap area. It's really smooth (that's why the article is titled "Stunting Can Be Smooth") but not necessarily tight, or tight-looking.  But adding elevator travel (which is just the same as reducing the flap travel) makes it rotate much better - up to the point you go too far, and it stalls.  Increasing the elevator travel definitely *increases* the likelihood of stalling. As long as you don't overdo it, you are probably better off.

    Having more tail volume makes everything more forgiving. Originally it was used to overcome a far-forward CG - you could put on a ton of nose weight and still have sufficient control effort to get it around the corners (as long as you were willing to put up with the control loads). Until very recently that's what a lot of people were doing. On the other hand, you can also run the CG further back without the airplane going unstable, greatly reducing the control loads and the tendency of the corners to open up in the wind. That's more-or-less how we on the West Coast have done it, based on Paul Walker's stunning success with the Impact.

    I would highly recommend the Imitation article as a very good explanation of the entire idea.

    Brett

Offline Phil Hawkins

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Re: SIG Banshee
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2009, 06:10:14 PM »
Thanks Brett,

Where do I find the articles you mention? I read Sparky's thread (but will need to read a couple times to really get it) but I know I have been "stuck in the box" in regards to the planes I currently fly. Mostly '50s-'60s designs.  You may recall a post I did and questioned why adjustable lead-outs and tip boxes on Ringmasters when a generation of flyer's have flown just fine with as-per-plans set ups... Because we have progressed in trimming techniques and variations in wood, etc... For a guy like me, who has yet to even enter a *contest but loves to fly, 1 oz of tip weight in my Ring may be all I will ever know to deal with.  but my RSM Ring has all the latest & greatest all the same, right down to the L&J Fox.

* a major tramatic event in 2004 took me out of the contest seasons for 2004-2005, 2006 was spent getting ready to move from California, and 2007 here in Montana was the kill shot for competitive flying. I do hope to make the Mackey at Whittier Narrows this year, but the recent lay-off and now reduced wages may kill that one too.
Point being: I do hope to gain SOME competitive knowlege (and thereby more credibility) at some point   #^


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