Sig Auction

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

https://smc.prod4.maxanet.auction/Public/Auction/All

[Roy Johnson]

https://smc.prod4.maxanet.auction/Public/Auction/All

That does not bode well to me for future production of stuff I’m interested in buying like CL full kits. I seem to remember a press release from them about going to all ARF’s for planes. I really love SIG products but they have to have stuff I want to buy.

[Dwayne Donnelly]

To bad, 2 years ago they were on facebook almost everyday showing new laser cutters, huge shipment of balsa, kits being built at the factory even what looked like a new Primary Force prototype,  there was so much enthusiasm, people were excited and started ordering kits and wood, I wonder what happened, sales dry up?

[Ken Culbertson]

To bad, 2 years ago they were on facebook almost everyday showing new laser cutters, huge shipment of balsa, kits being built at the factory even what looked like a new Primary Force prototype,  there was so much enthusiasm, people were excited and started ordering kits and wood, I wonder what happened, sales dry up?

New owners.  Rule #1 - Lie to everybody till you get your changes in place.  Like old home week looking at that auction.  Put myself through college running most of the lathe's and presses that are up for sale.  I wonder if they still have the dies for their control horns?  The add says they can't take everything.  Looks more like they can't take anything!  Anybody know it they will license their designs?   Things just won't be the same without the Twister and Banshee.

Ken

[spare_parts]

Seeing the auction it's really not surprising. Hobbico/Greatplanes auction was no different. I find it unlikely there will be much if any production done here. If the equipment was profitable and worth moving a few hundred miles, they would do it. If all they bought was the intellectual property, it's also no surprise that the equipment is left behind. Sad to see change. I've only been in since the 90's, but it feels like everything will be gone soon.

It will be interesting to see what they actually offer. I hope they are close enough to me that I can walk in an buy something.

[dave siegler]

Well, I have helped the company I work for more and set up a new location so I only see a garage sale. 

IDK for me it's not so dark, I don't see lasers or any of the modern equipment.  I only see the old band saws and manual machines.  It looks like they did a lot of machinery repair and fabrication which at a new location they would not need or contract out.  I can see getting rid of that.

Shelving racking and furniture would match the new location.   

I dont seea any of the screen printing wire bendings die cutting equipment.

[Dick Byron]

This just makes me sick. Those of us that were able to attend the SIG contests will never forget the wonderful time there. Those of you that know me do not know I was a traveling salesman living on Omaha and Des Moines thru 1990. Sig was one of my customers as well as a friend. I spent many hours visiting Mike Gretz , Harrold , Mike Pratt and all the gang.  This is truly the end of an era.

Dick Byron

[John Rist]

I went through the whole list.  Most of it is junk, large equipment, and hand tools.  Very little looks like kit manufacturing equipment.  Was some balsa wood.   Hopefully they are taking the good equipment with them.  Who knows?

[katana]

I went through the whole list.  Most of it is junk, large equipment, and hand tools.  Very little looks like kit manufacturing equipment.  Was some balsa wood.   Hopefully they are taking the good equipment with them.  Who knows?

That was my thoughts after the first couple of pages - glorified garage / shop sale! I honestly didn't see anything that said 'Model production equipment'! And as such, some of the opening bids are waaaaay over the top!

[GallopingGhostler]

To bad, 2 years ago they were on facebook almost everyday showing new laser cutters, huge shipment of balsa, kits being built at the factory even what looked like a new Primary Force prototype,  there was so much enthusiasm, people were excited and started ordering kits and wood, I wonder what happened, sales dry up?

The whole Covid situation and the lockdowns, supply chains in shambles, etc. affected many businesses. SIG was just getting itself off the ground again, this was the last thing it needed to survive. Because of the lockdowns, many a person's livelihood was in the balances too, so they ordered less. It could be possible that the new owners were struggling to make their mortgage payments.

Many a start-ups are no longer with us for the same reason.

[Rusty]

I still have a Sig Four Star Forty from decades ago. Twice I have used the parts as templates to cut out 3 planes at a time.  It's a lifetime supply of 4 star 40s.

It is sad to see the hobby dying.  Luckily, between my template kits and plans I don't need a kit manufacturer anymore.   

Now if all the balsa companies go under that would hurt. 

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Yes, not a lot of the modern equipment.  Will check again closer to auction date.  The site says 850 lots, but only 561 show.

... I only see a garage sale. 

... I don't see lasers or any of the modern equipment.  I only see the old band saws and manual machines.  It looks like they did a lot of machinery repair and fabrication which at a new location they would not need or contract out. ...

I dont seea any of the screen printing wire bendings die cutting equipment.

[Dan McEntee]

That was my thoughts after the first couple of pages - glorified garage / shop sale! I honestly didn't see anything that said 'Model production equipment'! And as such, some of the opening bids are waaaaay over the top!

    John Rist siad;
   " I went through the whole list.  Most of it is junk, large equipment, and hand tools.  Very little looks like kit manufacturing equipment.  Was some balsa wood.   Hopefully they are taking the good equipment with them.  Who knows?"

      One thing to remember about SIG is that it was built from the ground up, from absolutely nothing. Everything, every single thing that you see in those photos helped to build SIG Manufacturing into what was one of the best companies in the hobby industry, and you all know that was true. Hazel and Glenn were motorcycle parts dealers ( they produced spun aluminum wheel covers for Harley Davidson and Indian motorcycle wheels) before they got into the balsa cutting business out of their basement in the 50's. They grew from there to a point where at one time they were the worlds largest producer and distributer of hobby woods. EVERYBODY used SIG balsa!! Hazel was the master business mind and ran the company. Glenn was the mechanic and built almost all of the custom fabricating and manufacturing equipment as the company grew. Remember, this was in just a little small town in the middle of the corn fields of Iowa!!  Everything produced by SIG was done in house. Some of the injection molding machines you see made many of the plastic parts they used. They did their own vacu-forming, and their own foam wing cutting. All the machine shop equipment that you see was used to produce parts to make production dies, molds, and  forming machines. Glenn had his hands on all of it. If you had ever taken a full factory tour at anytime in the 80's and 90's you could have seen it all in operation and how it all tied in. Ever built a AMA racer or any of the other rubber powered SIG kits? The props, wheels and such were made on those injection molding machines. All the bent wire landing gear for their kits were processed on hand made hydraulic or pneumatic benders that Glenn made by hand. All the SIG dope and SIGMENT glue and their line of aliphatic resin glues were packaged and filled by machines that Glenn built. Did you like the old SIG Catalogs? They printed those themselves also, along with all their own decals and plans. They had a old Heidelberg two color 64" press way down in the bowels of the main building that was Glenn's pride and joy. He and Hazel both also worked as printers and type setters. Glen found that press some where and restored it to print their plans on, and the plans were folded on this really neat looking, magical Baum folder machine. Just looking at it, you couldn't tell what it was for, but put a sheet of paper into it and it was fun to watch!! In one side as a big sheet of paper plan, and out the other side came set of Super Chipmunk plans, all folded and ready for the kit box.!! How else do you think plans got folded??  SIG was the first to have a commercial laser operation in the country I think. They did the laser cutting for many other kit manufacturers and also other kinds of custom laser cutting for other customers. It was replaced by two newer units in recent history. I remember touring the factory in one of my first trips to the SIG C/L contest in the late 80s and going through the R&D department. EVERY SIG prototype model that you ever saw in a catalog or magazine add was in there hanging from the ceiling. Glenn had already passed away, killed in a crash of his Pitts Special in an airshow, but his office was still in tact. I saw that plus Mike Gretz's drawing board, where Mike Pratt and Maxey Hester worked. Maxey Hester was a big part in keeping their success going after Glenn's death. The area where they sorted and graded balsa was like heaven!!. The sawing operations evolved over the years and was upgraded and modernized at every opportunity. Glenn at one time, I think held a patent on a band saw blade that had no set to the teeth, but was coated with a fine abrasive so that when it cut a sheet of wood, it sanded it smooth at the same time! Later on they went to using thickness sanders for better accuracy. They did all of their own die cutting on converted old oscillating printing presses or embossing machines, that Glenn modified and converted. They made and maintained their own cutting dies. If you don't think what you see in the auction ad looks like anything needed to produce model airplane kits and accessories, then you don't know what it takes to do that job. Go tour Brodaks and you will probably see things very similar. As far as I can see into what's happening with SIG right now, it will just become an importer and distributer of ARF R/C models. They were trending that way when they took on the Seagull and other ARF lines. I don't think the plan is to offer any of the other products that we have come to know, but I guess time will tell in that respect. Hazel just turned 101 years old, and last year at her 100th birthday party, she was still sharp as a tack. I just have to think that if she is aware of what is happening to what she and Glenn spent their lives building, I would think her heart is breaking right about now.  I know I am beyond sad to see a once giant of the hobby industry dissolve into more or less nothing.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee






     

[Dave Rigotti]

Geesh! I wonder why kit manufacturers are having a hard time?  "Sad to see the hobby dying"....YOU'RE part of the problem!

I still have a Sig Four Star Forty from decades ago. Twice I have used the parts as templates to cut out 3 planes at a time.  It's a lifetime supply of 4 star 40s.

It is sad to see the hobby dying.  Luckily, between my template kits and plans I don't need a kit manufacturer anymore.   

Now if all the balsa companies go under that would hurt.

[Rusty]

I'm the problem?  What kind of woke thinking is it when you say I should buy things I don't need so a company will stay in business?  No fruit loops it isn't that way for logical thinking people.   My guess is you can't cut out your own kit and are dependent on another person to do it.   

Before you try to defend this asinine statement why don't you poll the forum and find out how many others do it?

[Dave Rigotti]

I stand by my statement......

I'm the problem?  What kind of woke thinking is it when you say I should buy things I don't need so a company will stay in business?  No fruit loops it isn't that way for logical thinking people.   My guess is you can't cut out your own kit and are dependent on another person to do it.   

Before you try to defend this asinine statement why don't you poll the forum and find out how many others do it?

[Ken Culbertson]

I stand by my statement......

I stand by you standing by your statement and furthermore you are right.

Ken

[Chuck Matheny]

Geesh! I wonder why kit manufacturers are having a hard time?  "Sad to see the hobby dying"....YOU'RE part of the problem!

How did most of us get involved with scratch building...?
We built kits.
Next we modified those kits and used the knowledge and wisdom that went into designing those kits to eventually wean ourselves away from dependency on those kits to pursue the hobby.
Do people who aren't "part of the problem" burn the plans to their kits once  the build is complete...?
Maybe even order "OEM " factory original repair parts [like wing ribs] in order to perform a deep repair...?
The hobby business has been very "volatile" ,,aka fickle ever since the beginning... just thumb through the magazines through the years and take note of the 100s of advertisers that came and went.
BTW...I emailed SIG and told them that they have the option of replacing the unusable / stale epoxy they sent me or else lose my business for good.
I invited them to research my customer history with them.
Looks like they chose to lose my business for good over a $25 sale..instead of chosing the honorable solution..

[wwwarbird]

I stand by you standing by your statement and furthermore you are right.

Ken

 Yep, Dave's got it right. 

  Air Master is missing the primary point and has apparently forgotten where his templates came from. His argument would be the "asinine" one here.

[Rusty]

Chuck, you are absolutely right.  I did modify them to make improvements.  One is I used better wood.  (I bet these institutionalized simpleton never did that.  They probably call the company and beg them to cut with better wood.)  Then I  moved the firewall back so I could use a Saito 80 four stroke instead of a 40 two stroke and it would balance.  (I bet the simpleton would never change a plane so it had a better power to weight ratio.)  And, most importantly I  have my 29.99 kit (notice "my") kit and the company is gone, so simpleton you are out of luck, unless you can beg somebody to cut you one out.  And, some was different like flaperons.  I learned from it.

 NOW HYPOCRITES, what about a FANCHERIZED Sig Twister.   Let's see if your brass balls will go after him. 

[Rusty]

I stand by you standing by your statement and furthermore you are right.

Ken

LOOK what this liar said before.  Yep, you guessed it.  He is giving advise on HOW TO PUT SIG OUT OF BUSINESS by building a Sig kit from plans.  How do people like this have any self respect? 

[Chuck Matheny]

Chuck, you are absolutely right.  I did modify them to make improvements.  One is I used better wood.  (I bet these institutionalized simpleton never did that.  They probably call the company and beg them to cut with better wood.)  Then I  moved the firewall back so I could use a Saito 80 four stroke instead of a 40 two stroke and it would balance.  (I bet the simpleton would never change a plane so it had a better power to weight ratio.)  And, most importantly I  have my 29.99 kit (notice "my") kit and the company is gone, so simpleton you are out of luck, unless you can beg somebody to cut you one out.  And, some was different like flaperons.  I learned from it.

 NOW HYPOCRITES, what about a FANCHERIZED Sig Twister.   Let's see if your brass balls will go after him.

During the many years that SIG was "rolling in the dough"....there were some people copying SIG kits to one degree or another...with their own hand cut creations
but...
 I'll bet many of those copied SIG kits were done with genuine SIG balsa, plywood, paints, canopies and glues.
another but...
During all the years I belonged to a 80 to 100 man RC Club the number of guys who I ever saw show up to fly "hand cut / boot leg" SIG, Midwest or Goldberg..or ANY other commercial kit could be counted on  maybe 3 fingers.
I'd say a pretty insignificant percentage of the market share.

[Ken Culbertson]

 NOW HYPOCRITES, what about a FANCHERIZED Sig Twister.   

What does modifying a kit have to do with cloning kits?  I sure hope the weather gets better soon.  This is the worst case of group cabin fever I have seen since I started frequenting this forum.

Ken

[mike londke]

What is your real name Air Master?

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

The beauty of the Sig offering back when I sold a lot of Sig was that it appealed to both the kit builder and the scratch builder.  In fact, they started with balsa only, as I understand it.

I think this discussion has gone off the rails, that we forget who we are.  Many of us here are competitors.  We would prefer to cut out our own parts from the exact weight/grain wood in order to produce planes that aim to win.  Adjusting parts to fit different power plants, adding LE sheeting, building entirely new designs, many of us are capable of those creative activities.

Think for the moment about a Sterling Ringmaster.  A light, straight Ringmaster is a good flying plane.  Built from the wood supplied by Sterling, maybe not so much.

Peter

[katana]

I still have a Sig Four Star Forty from decades ago. Twice I have used the parts as templates to cut out 3 planes at a time.  It's a lifetime supply of 4 star 40s.

It is sad to see the hobby dying.  Luckily, between my template kits and plans I don't need a kit manufacturer anymore.   

Now if all the balsa companies go under that would hurt.

Technically you are part of the problem as, although you bought / obtained a limited licence to build that model with the purchase of the kit, you didn't obtain the copyright to continue reproducing it!
If you buy a plan only, it is expected you will cut parts based on that, but to copy original parts to produce additional 'original' models is tantamount to stealing the parts from the company!

[Lauri Malila]

Technically you are part of the problem as, although you bought / obtained a limited licence to build that model with the purchase of the kit, you didn't obtain the copyright to continue reproducing it!
If you buy a plan only, it is expected you will cut parts based on that, but to copy original parts to produce additional 'original' models is tantamount to stealing the parts from the company!

I don’t see any problem as long as you do it for yourself. If you copy and sell, that’s of course another thing.
We did that a lot (for ourselves, that is) with Magnums in 90’s got a kit and cloned about 10 models in total. Partially because the design evolved, partially because of bad wood etc. quality of kit. L

[Rusty]

Mr, Katana.  (Putty knife?)

READ what I said about Fancher.  My planes were modified from the original more than he did on the Sig Twister.   He published plans which undeniably cost Sig sales.   The plans are everywhere, but only for those with the brain cells to use them, which obviously some here don't have. 

Lauri,  thank you.   They were for my use and experimentation.

YO TROLLS: when you clear the obstacle of the fancherized Twister then expose you next stupid thought.   

[Dan McEntee]

Technically you are part of the problem as, although you bought / obtained a limited licence to build that model with the purchase of the kit, you didn't obtain the copyright to continue reproducing it!
If you buy a plan only, it is expected you will cut parts based on that, but to copy original parts to produce additional 'original' models is tantamount to stealing the parts from the company!

       You guys can't be serious, are you?? I'll bet there isn't one person posting on this thread that hasn't copied a kit in an effort to save money. It's called "being frugal!"  Most of us are not made of money and do what we need to do in order to participate on an extended basis. To think that copying kits parts to extend your budget is copyright infringement or a form of piracy is just silly. Who hasn't made copies of plans at Kinkos so they could cut them up to make building easier and save the original plan for another day?? Scratch building models using kits parts as patterns has been suggested and encouraged on this very forum by many people for a long time and has been done since the days of Ideal brand kits. It's human nature, and was probably a result on some kit manufacturers not showing all the parts on the plans, or not providing plans at all such as in Sterling  and Goldberg kits. It was their way of driving kit sales. Did you ever wonder why Top Flite and some others offered those nice machined leading and trailing edge parts in their kits? Sure it made building the model a bit easier, but another reason was because you couldn't buy those separately. If you wanted to build another Nobler, you needed to buy another kit. Copying a kit is probably one of the oldest practices in the hobby. No one did it to "screw the kit company" or try to drive them out of business. With kit prices reaching up into the 300 dollars range these days, don't you think that this is still being done today??  Do you guys that think that those that mix their own fuel to make flying more affordable are driving the fuel companies out of business?? Get real!!! If you never noticed, SIG kits were engineered and produced using the same wood they offered for sale separately. I won't say they encouraged the practice of copying their kits, but I think they were one of the first to make individual parts of their kits available for sale. You could buy wing kits, fuselage kits, cowls, canopies, plans, landing gear etc. for any SIG kit to help stretch a budget. It has always been just a general practice and a fact of life if you wanted to keep flying. To make it sound like it's something evil and that is why SIG isn't what they used to be is just stupid!
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[spare_parts]

Does one put McDonalds "out of business" by making a burger at home? The value has to be there. If enough people deem the value of a product to be insufficient, there just won't be enough "donors" to keep a company above water. Sometimes it's not about the product at all, but how the company is run, countless failures have proven this.

[Ken Culbertson]

       You guys can't be serious, are you?? I'll bet there isn't one person posting on this thread that hasn't copied a kit in an effort to save money. It's called "being frugal!"  Most of us are not made of money and do what we need to do in order to participate on an extended basis. To think that copying kits parts to extend your budget is copyright infringement or a form of piracy is just silly. Who hasn't made copies of plans at Kinkos so they could cut them up to make building easier and save the original plan for another day?? Scratch building models using kits parts as patterns has been suggested and encouraged on this very forum by many people for a long time and has been done since the days of Ideal brand kits. It's human nature, and was probably a result on some kit manufacturers not showing all the parts on the plans, or not providing plans at all such as in Sterling  and Goldberg kits. It was their way of driving kit sales. Did you ever wonder why Top Flite and some others offered those nice machined leading and trailing edge parts in their kits? Sure it made building the model a bit easier, but another reason was because you couldn't buy those separately. If you wanted to build another Nobler, you needed to buy another kit. Copying a kit is probably one of the oldest practices in the hobby. No one did it to "screw the kit company" or try to drive them out of business. With kit prices reaching up into the 300 dollars range these days, don't you think that this is still being done today??  Do you guys that think that those that mix their own fuel to make flying more affordable are driving the fuel companies out of business?? Get real!!! If you never noticed, SIG kits were engineered and produced using the same wood they offered for sale separately. I won't say they encouraged the practice of copying their kits, but I think they were one of the first to make individual parts of their kits available for sale. You could buy wing kits, fuselage kits, cowls, canopies, plans, landing gear etc. for any SIG kit to help stretch a budget. It has always been just a general practice and a fact of life if you wanted to keep flying. To make it sound like it's something evil and that is why SIG isn't what they used to be is just stupid!
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

You would lose that bet.  I never copied a kit or built one from kit plans.  Never will either.  That has nothing to do with money or copyrights, I just don't  build kits, I design everything I fly.  That may change in the future, I want to build a Classic.  If I can't find a Kit I will use plans.

Somehow just because it is a hobby we think it is OK to take other's intellectual property for our own use. Just because we all do it doesn't make it right.  I don't even pretend to think ill of those that do but PLEASE don't say that it is right.  If you have ever had your work stolen and used by others to make money you would probably think differently.

Now enough of this.  If you want to keep arguing this point at least put hour name to it like Dan always does and stop with taking cheap shots from the bushes. 

Ken

[Dan McEntee]

You would lose that bet.  I never copied a kit or built one from kit plans.  Never will either.  That has nothing to do with money or copyrights, I just don't  build kits, I design everything I fly.  That may change in the future, I want to build a Classic.  If I can't find a Kit I will use plans.

Somehow just because it is a hobby we think it is OK to take other's intellectual property for our own use. Just because we all do it doesn't make it right.  I don't even pretend to think ill of those that do but PLEASE don't say that it is right.  If you have ever had your work stolen and used by others to make money you would probably think differently.

Now enough of this.  If you want to keep arguing this point at least put hour name to it like Dan always does and stop with taking cheap shots from the bushes. 

Ken

    No one is talking about copying a kit to sell reproductions of it, just to be able to build more models for their own use. Purchase of the kits gives us that right and ability. It's for self preservation if for no other reason. Do you record TV shows so that you can watch them at a convenient time? That way you can still enjoy them at your leisure, but are you stealing some one else's intellectual property? No, not unless you are selling copies for profit. Same difference here. It's my kit, I bought , so it's mine to do with what I see fit to be able to enjoy it and make best use of my money. To see it as anything else is just stretching things out of perspective.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[dave siegler]

Attention Keyboard warriors time to put down your virtual swords, stop pointing your fake fingers name calling, and go back and build something. 

YOU ARE ON THE SAME TEAM and NO ONE CARES. 

I put a bid on a few items that would make a nice addition to my shop. 

I'll miss the old sig and I hope to do business with the New Sig when they come out of this. 

He is most likely going to make some changes to be profitable. 

Rumor has it located in the Chicago area which I would like. 

[Rusty]

Dan, very well written.  I agree 100%.

Spare parts, you beat me to it.   That truly shows how bizarre their argument is. I used to be a big Sig customer and built their 1/4 sc Cub,  1/7 sc Citabria, and others.   I quit because they sold me a bad case of 25% fuel.  None of the jugs had the red sealer plug that goes under the cap.  My planes ran perfect on omega 25% and would barely run on the Sig.   Even retuning the engines did no good.   I had to buy omega to get the normal performance again. 

That and selling bad glue, etc and no inventory put them out of business.

What does modifying a kit have to do with cloning kits?  I sure hope the weather gets better soon.  This is the worst case of group cabin fever I have seen since I started frequenting this forum.

Ken

Who is cloning kits?  Or, do you know what clone means?  Here is the definition:  a person or thing regarded as identical to another.

Neither Francher or me have planes identical to what the company sells.

You going to give up or try again to enter the conversation with a valid point?  You're not doing good so far.

[Rusty]

AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMEN AND FANS READING ALL OVER THE WORLD.  THIS IS THE MOMENT YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR.  3 ROUNDS IN THE STUNT HANGAR SPORTSMAN MIXED MARTIAL ARTS DIVISION.   FIGHTING OUT OF THE BLUE CORNER IS THE WOKE GANG WHO BLAME OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING.   FIGHTING OUT OF RED CORNER IS THE PRODUCER GANG WHO SOLVE PROBLEMS.   YOUR REFEREE IN CHARGE IS SPARKY.

[Arlan McKee]

No, I think it's more like virtual pearl clutching than anything else.

[Ken Culbertson]

Dan, very well written.  I agree 100%.

Spare parts, you beat me to it.   That truly shows how bizarre their argument is. I used to be a big Sig customer and built their 1/4 sc Cub,  1/7 sc Citabria, and others.   I quit because they sold me a bad case of 25% fuel.  None of the jugs had the red sealer plug that goes under the cap.  My planes ran perfect on omega 25% and would barely run on the Sig.   Even retuning the engines did no good.   I had to buy omega to get the normal performance again. 

That and selling bad glue, etc and no inventory put them out of business.

Who is cloning kits?  Or, do you know what clone means?  Here is the definition:  a person or thing regarded as identical to another.

Neither Francher or me have planes identical to what the company sells.

You going to give up or try again to enter the conversation with a valid point?  You're not doing good so far.

So now we are into wordsmithing your strawman.  Making a copy of something is "cloning" the fact that it isn't "exact" evades the entire point.  I also don't recall Ted recommending that you not buy a Twister to modify, only that here is how you modify one.  Did you read the article he wrote on it?  Did he start by saying that you should copy somebody else kit?  Look, this is getting pointless and you comments are simply rude so I am going to use Mark Twain's exit here.  You win through experience.

Ken - which actually is my name.

[Chuck Matheny]

Thinking way back to my very beginning with Goldberg 1/2A C/L kits....if I had to buy an entire new kit every time I stuffed one of those all sheet stunters...that would have delayed my progression  through the hobby for sure.
Thankfully SIG sold airfoiled 1/4" sheet and I could buy the wood to whip out a fresh copy of a Swordsman or a Whizard practically from memory.
So yep..that's my admission of guilt for the part I played in the bankruptcy of the kit business.

I do not love kit building...but with many kits I looked at it as time spent in a classroom.
Especially when I was new to building.
The .60 sized Goldberg Ultimate Bipe was engineered to be such an easy build and the reward [once finished and airworthy] was so tremendous that I do plan on "cloning" it someday.
It was one of a select few kits I enjoyed assembling.
I saved the plans and hope to build another with my own hand cut parts and substitutions to the original bill of materials.

[Ken Culbertson]

Purchase of the kits gives us that right and ability.

Dan, we are going to have to disagree on this one.  I did a quick search and all I could find that related to us was the law for full size aircraft kits and it is clear that purchasing the kit and the plans does not give you the right to make multiples, even if for your own use, especially not for sale, and even if all you purchased were the plans.  If you want to make another one you need to purchase another set of plans.  I have no idea if this applies to our small industry but it appears to me that it does.  It is very clear in the homebuilding kit industry but their laws appear to be industry specific.

Please let me state again - I have no problem with this practice other than it is technically wrong.  I put it the category of going 80 in a 70 zone and it bothers me that people think that just because we all do it that it is right. 

Take care, I really enjoy your posts - Ken

[Chuck Matheny]

In the summer 1954, I cloned my Barnstormer as it was 98 miles to Reno and the nearest "hobby shop" and I was only 13, didn't have  drivers license..  My parents sure as hell were not going to drive me just so I could buy another "expensive" kit to crash.  LL~Thus I learned at an early age to build from plans and balsa sheet, etc. 

Most of what I got, I did by mail with America's Hobby Center, the rip off place.  Don't get me started on those yahoos.

Howdy TY.....those AHS ads always looked kind of ......cheesy...to me.
 I have a friend who grew up in a similar situation to yours.....miles from nowhere.
It really was a great way to teach a kid to be resourceful and inventive.

[Rusty]

We bought all contol line stuff at local hobby shops in the 60s to 90s.  Excellent inventory and knowledge.

In about 1968 we wanted to try rc.  AHC had a package deal.  A sterling mini mambo, cox baby vee and a single channel escapement, push button radio.  It actually flew until it went out of range and flew away.  It turned nicely. 

I used love reading those multi page ads and dream.

[Lauri Malila]

This all reminds me of the Zhang Skywriter that's on my building board at the moment. The kit is made by a known US kit supplier. I ended up rejecting all laser cut parts except the 4 rudder ribs. From the uncut sheet material I replaced about 60%. It's kind of a shame as the parts were very nicely cut, too bad the shapes were too far from original shapes.
I also replaced the drawings with more accurate ones.
I'll have to build the engine by myself, that will be a loss of several hundred bucks to someone who does them for living.
Before I continue, I'd like to know if I'm breaking some unwritten rule..?

L

[Rusty]

Dan, we are going to have to disagree on this one.  I did a quick search and all I could find that related to us was the law for full size aircraft kits and it is clear that purchasing the kit and the plans does not give you the right to make multiples, even if for your own use, especially not for sale, and even if all you purchased were the plans.  If you want to make another one you need to purchase another set of plans.  I have no idea if this applies to our small industry but it appears to me that it does.  It is very clear in the homebuilding kit industry but their laws appear to be industry specific.

Please let me state again - I have no problem with this practice other than it is technically wrong.  I put it the category of going 80 in a 70 zone and it bothers me that people think that just because we all do it that it is right. 

Take care, I really enjoy your posts - Ken

Mr. KEN.  Didn't you tell me you quit?    Now you're going to @#$% off Dan "The Man?"   Is there something else you can do like sand something? 

[Steve Helmick]

This all reminds me of the Zhang Skywriter that's on my building board at the moment. The kit is made by a known US kit supplier. I ended up rejecting all laser cut parts except the 4 rudder ribs. From the uncut sheet material I replaced about 60%. It's kind of a shame as the parts were very nicely cut, too bad the shapes were too far from original shapes.
I also replaced the drawings with more accurate ones.
I'll have to build the engine by myself, that will be a loss of several hundred bucks to someone who does them for living.
Before I continue, I'd like to know if I'm breaking some unwritten rule..?

L

Just out of curiosity, what known US kit supplier sells a laser cut kit of Zhang's Skywriter? PM me if you don't wish to blurt it out on Stunthangar...although it might be good info for potential customers.  Steve 

[Steve Helmick]

My take on the kit cloning deal is that if the die-crushing and balsa selection makes the parts only viable as templates, then the manufacturer did it to themselves, with Sterling and Berkley being prime examples.  Steve

[mike londke]

AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMEN AND FANS READING ALL OVER THE WORLD.  THIS IS THE MOMENT YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR.  3 ROUNDS IN THE STUNT HANGAR SPORTSMAN MIXED MARTIAL ARTS DIVISION.   FIGHTING OUT OF THE BLUE CORNER IS THE WOKE GANG WHO BLAME OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING.   FIGHTING OUT OF RED CORNER IS THE PRODUCER GANG WHO SOLVE PROBLEMS.   YOUR REFEREE IN CHARGE IS SPARKY.

I’ll ask again…..Mr Air Master what is your real name?

[GallopingGhostler]

My take on the kit cloning deal is that if the die-crushing and balsa selection makes the parts only viable as templates, then the manufacturer did it to themselves, with Sterling and Berkley being prime examples.  Steve

Guillow and a few others actually provided patterns in the plans, so that one could in theory build another. It was also a convenience because some of the kit wood was bad enough you had to make your own own to build it.

I see some discussion on the legalities involved with copying plans and kits. Especially when we are talking about model aircraft, when I was a kid, I never heard of anyone wanting to pursue me for tracing the parts of a half-A CL so later I could make another. For full size aircraft, it is another ball game due to the amount of engineering and costs of kit production, rights, and etc. I don't think we can use that as a good model to apply to model aircraft, especially stuff that uses less than $50 in wood.

Also, regarding copying of plans, how old are they? Do the copyrights still apply? If they were about to expire, were they renewed, and are they still in effect? Recently I've noticed a number of plans I have downloaded from the various Internet sources having the words on them, "A Skystone Reproduction".

I'm not going to lose any sleep over making another templated from a kit I have, or I scratch build, or loaning them. And, I am not even talking about becoming a business doing it. Would I do this for say, someone who currently produces kits? Use your common sense. To support him, I would say that I would feel no shame in buying another from the person. However, if we are talking about an out-of-production kit that is now basically an estate sale remarketed item, how have I cheated the original company by remaking something that is no longer available? Am I taking money out of a dead man's pockets? 

The problem with our litigious society is now everything can be prosecuted over some small, minor technicality of the law, that years ago were not considered a crime because it wasn't codified by the law. Common sense and gentlemanly rules presided. I really don't know why is it that now, we need look over the shoulder every time when we do something, no matter what it is. I digress .... 

AND NOW LADIES AND GENTLEMEN AND FANS READING ALL OVER THE WORLD.  THIS IS THE MOMENT YOU HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR.  3 ROUNDS IN THE STUNT HANGAR SPORTSMAN MIXED MARTIAL ARTS DIVISION.   FIGHTING OUT OF THE BLUE CORNER IS THE WOKE GANG WHO BLAME OTHERS FOR EVERYTHING.   FIGHTING OUT OF RED CORNER IS THE PRODUCER GANG WHO SOLVE PROBLEMS.   YOUR REFEREE IN CHARGE IS SPARKY.

I’ll ask again…..Mr Air Master what is your real name?

See attached description. 

[Dan McEntee]

Dan, we are going to have to disagree on this one.  I did a quick search and all I could find that related to us was the law for full size aircraft kits and it is clear that purchasing the kit and the plans does not give you the right to make multiples, even if for your own use, especially not for sale, and even if all you purchased were the plans.  If you want to make another one you need to purchase another set of plans.  I have no idea if this applies to our small industry but it appears to me that it does.  It is very clear in the homebuilding kit industry but their laws appear to be industry specific.

Please let me state again - I have no problem with this practice other than it is technically wrong.  I put it the category of going 80 in a 70 zone and it bothers me that people think that just because we all do it that it is right. 

Take care, I really enjoy your posts - Ken

     You are going to have to provide a link for that information. I poked around for an hour, EAA and FAA sites and couldn't sniff out anything. I knew a guy locally that built at least two Fly Baby home built aircraft in the 30 some odd years that I knew him. He sadly passed away so I can't confirm any information with him. Building two or three privately owned, and registered experimental aircraft over a life time is not that same as going into production.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

     You are going to have to provide a link for that information. I poked around for an hour, EAA and FAA sites and couldn't sniff out anything. I knew a guy locally that built at least two Fly Baby home built aircraft in the 30 some odd years that I knew him. He sadly passed away so I can't confirm any information with him. Building two or three privately owned, and registered experimental aircraft over a life time is not that same as going into production.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/plans-kits-licensing-ip.32749/

It sounds very much like it was written by lawyers, so it is purposely designed to make you say - huh?
I sure hope the weather improves.  I wasted a couple of hours just to find this as well.   I could get a definitive answer from my son in law, he is a Patent and Copyright attorney, but that would take all the fun out of it.  Anyway, it wasn't the issue itself that sucked me in, it was the arrogance of Mister Master that got under my skin.

Take care and rest assured that no one is forming a kit copier hit squad - Ken

[Chuck Matheny]

     You are going to have to provide a link for that information. I poked around for an hour, EAA and FAA sites and couldn't sniff out anything. I knew a guy locally that built at least two Fly Baby home built aircraft in the 30 some odd years that I knew him. He sadly passed away so I can't confirm any information with him. Building two or three privately owned, and registered experimental aircraft over a life time is not that same as going into production.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Thought you might like this Dan.
Not quite the same as cloning a SIG kit...but similar to cloning a full scale plane.
Take a gander at the lengths some people will go to to clone a Willys coupe.
Take a rough guess what the finished product here is worth.....https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/aluminum-1940-willys-build.253372/