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Author Topic: Sig Auction  (Read 10824 times)

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2023, 12:14:15 AM »
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/plans-kits-licensing-ip.32749/

It sounds very much like it was written by lawyers, so it is purposely designed to make you say - huh?


Ken...What does a sperm and a lawyer have in common?   They each have a one-in-a-million chance of becoming a human being..... H^^

Online Bill Morell

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2023, 09:29:55 AM »
After reading this thread is it really any wonder that, for the most part, the younger generation wants nothing to do with us?
Bill Morell
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Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2023, 09:40:15 AM »
After reading this thread is it really any wonder that, for the most part, the younger generation wants nothing to do with us?

If you can get their eyes off cellphone or tablet screens and the games, social media and etc., and get them to listen.  %^@ S?P D>K H^^

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2023, 09:40:27 AM »
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/plans-kits-licensing-ip.32749/

It sounds very much like it was written by lawyers, so it is purposely designed to make you say - huh?
I sure hope the weather improves.  I wasted a couple of hours just to find this as well.   I could get a definitive answer from my son in law, he is a Patent and Copyright attorney, but that would take all the fun out of it.  Anyway, it wasn't the issue itself that sucked me in, it was the arrogance of Mister Master that got under my skin.

Take care and rest assured that no one is forming a kit copier hit squad - Ken

    That is just a question by some one trying to push the envelope for commercially producing parts for other companies products. For companies such as Van's or Zenith, it's a matter of economics but more so for product liability. I joined the group and will check out the responses later if the approve me as a member. It also looks like has to do with what constitutes a homebuilt, and how much of the aircraft that you have to build yourself. Gets into an area like our Builder of the Model Rule. To meet FAA regs as a home built, you have to present a log and proof of what you built and it has to be at least 51% of the airframe, I do believe. I think Van's sells airplanes ready to fly, and in kit form to certain levels of prefabrication and it's dancing a fine line with the FAA in that respect. An entirely different set of problems . If I buy Betty Crocker's cook book, I can bake any cake in there as many times as I want, and not have to buy another cook book!! If a company sells a set of plans for an airplane and that includes some components, you may have to buy another set of plans to get those components, and that's a whole 'nother matter!  I want to see the chapter and verse of the written law. As long as it takes for some one to build a full scale airplane, you usually don't see multiples being built but it does happen. If I have to make up jigs, molds and fixtures for making components and building an airplane, it makes sense to sometimes build more that one while you are at it and have it hanging on the wall for when you need it to build that other matching Space Walker for your wife like Maxey Hester did. A lot of copyright law went out the window with the invention, production and marketing of the VCR and video tape, and introduced the "for your own private use" factor. 
  Type at you later,
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2023, 09:48:07 AM »
If you can get their eyes off cellphone or tablet screens and the games, social media and etc., and get them to listen.  %^@ S?P D>K H^^

And yet here you are doing pretty much the same thing.
Bill Morell
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2023, 09:54:34 AM »
Thought you might like this Dan.
Not quite the same as cloning a SIG kit...but similar to cloning a full scale plane.
Take a gander at the lengths some people will go to to clone a Willys coupe.
Take a rough guess what the finished product here is worth.....https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/aluminum-1940-willys-build.253372/

    Again, that's a whole 'nother matter. There is a company that somehow got the tooling and production equipment to produce bodies and frames for producing 1932 Ford coupes, I think it is. It's in Ohio someplace. They supply the hot rod market and I'm sure the write a regular check to the Ford Motor Company. There is a company, also in Ohio I think that will build you a replica WACO biplane if yoiur have enough money and whoever owns the rights to the name gets their tribute. Commercially producing and selling copies and licensing isn't the issue. It's buying a hobby level kit, and then replication of the parts within for my own use and enjoyment. I'll reiterate that people have been doing this since the Dead Sea was sick just to stretch their budget if they like a particular design a lot. Some don't do it because even that is too much work!!
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2023, 10:59:58 AM »
    That is just a question by some one trying to push the envelope for commercially producing parts for other companies products. For companies such as Van's or Zenith, it's a matter of economics but more so for product liability. I joined the group and will check out the responses later if the approve me as a member. It also looks like has to do with what constitutes a homebuilt, and how much of the aircraft that you have to build yourself. Gets into an area like our Builder of the Model Rule. To meet FAA regs as a home built, you have to present a log and proof of what you built and it has to be at least 51% of the airframe, I do believe. I think Van's sells airplanes ready to fly, and in kit form to certain levels of prefabrication and it's dancing a fine line with the FAA in that respect. An entirely different set of problems . If I buy Betty Crocker's cook book, I can bake any cake in there as many times as I want, and not have to buy another cook book!! If a company sells a set of plans for an airplane and that includes some components, you may have to buy another set of plans to get those components, and that's a whole 'nother matter!  I want to see the chapter and verse of the written law. As long as it takes for some one to build a full scale airplane, you usually don't see multiples being built but it does happen. If I have to make up jigs, molds and fixtures for making components and building an airplane, it makes sense to sometimes build more that one while you are at it and have it hanging on the wall for when you need it to build that other matching Space Walker for your wife like Maxey Hester did. A lot of copyright law went out the window with the invention, production and marketing of the VCR and video tape, and introduced the "for your own private use" factor. 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
I very much agree with your response.  I doubt that there is going to be any definitive answer to the legal question since we are so small that there is probably zero case law.  My initial response was to the issue of the damage to kit makers by the copying.  That is real, especially to the smaller ones which appear to be about the only ones left.  Maybe we should support them, encourage them to supply decent wood (the really good stuff may be gone forever) and not copy their designs but, somehow, I don't see that happening.  Sun is out so it is time to start thinking about more important things like line length and how my new canard will effect flap movement.

Ken
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Online Bill Morell

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2023, 12:03:31 PM »
I very much agree with your response.  I doubt that there is going to be any definitive answer to the legal question since we are so small that there is probably zero case law.  My initial response was to the issue of the damage to kit makers by the copying.  That is real, especially to the smaller ones which appear to be about the only ones left.  Maybe we should support them, encourage them to supply decent wood (the really good stuff may be gone forever) and not copy their designs but, somehow, I don't see that happening.  Sun is out so it is time to start thinking about more important things like line length and how my new canard will effect flap movement.

Ken

Interesting on supporting those who make stuff Ken. When I was looking for control horns you suggested, in a rather flippant manner, that I learn to make my own. I don't see how that is supposed to support anyone other than myself.
Bill Morell
It wasn't that you could and others couldn't, its that you did and others didn't.
Vietnam 72-73
  Better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.

Offline Chuck Matheny

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2023, 12:29:51 PM »
After reading this thread is it really any wonder that, for the most part, the younger generation wants nothing to do with us?

You mean those effeminately raised twerps who never spent one single day of their childhoods playing outdoors...?
They don't want to play outside with US BOOMERS...not even the original  Nintendo Babys who are now almost 40?
No kidding...?

 LL~


« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 03:01:54 PM by Chuck Matheny »

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2023, 04:20:49 PM »
Interesting on supporting those who make stuff Ken. When I was looking for control horns you suggested, in a rather flippant manner, that I learn to make my own. I don't see how that is supposed to support anyone other than myself.
Do you know anybody that makes these?  It is an adjustable version of Igor's and I checked with him before using his idea. The other one is put together from parts sent to me by Mark Wood.  For the simple ones I order from Okie - well in advance.  Learning how to make the simple items we need when they are not available is somehow wrong?  Anyway, that thread brought a lot of sources out of the woodwork so I thank you.

Ken
« Last Edit: March 19, 2023, 04:39:40 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #60 on: March 19, 2023, 05:35:31 PM »
And yet here you are doing pretty much the same thing.

That's rather bold, since you know little that I do.  y1

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2023, 06:51:39 PM »
If you can get their eyes off cellphone or tablet screens and the games, social media and etc., and get them to listen.  %^@ S?P D>K H^^

I tried. I failed.
They won't do their own oil changes either, let alone the oldest rebuilding my TR6 after totalling it (sigh...).

They won't go near my model airplanes ever again. However, I still have the ones they built and flew to appease me several years back. I do plan on buying additional copies from the vendor once I work my way down the current stack...if the vendor and I live that long. They are cute Scientific clones.

Offline Douglas Babb

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2023, 01:01:43 AM »
Sometimes you have to copy the parts, case in point is a kit that is long out of production or the company has ceased to exist and no one bought the rights to their products, you will need to make templates if you want to make another of the same model or keep the original die crushed parts intact for posterity. As far as building multiple articles from plans, I have a few full-size aircraft and boat plans, I had to sign an acknowledgment that I would be allowed to build one copy from the plans and if I wanted to build another, I would have to buy another set of plans. If Sig wants to continue as a business, they will have to do what it takes to make money and keep it viable. Look at Horizon, they bought the remains of Hobbico who had bought so many companies with good lines of kits and promptly stopped producing them to be replaced with an ARF. I have a Flite Streak and Nobler ARF, can't get another unless Horizon brings them back. Sig may or may not bring back some or all of the kits we like but if the ARF business keeps the lights on then that's where they will go.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2023, 04:07:28 AM »
think we are missing the point here. the damage made by kit copy is minimal on the atual quantity of unsold kits from any company that makes the product viable.
take for example Revell or Monogram: you cannot duplicate the models they produce, they sold by thousands back in the 60-80īs and both went off business on the 90īs (not sure but seems they hve been sold now and are still in business but the prodiction is cut dramatically)
what makeīs Sig, Top Flite, Great Planes and others to close their doors is the lack of interest for model building ( and in our case fliying as well). The required ammount of sold products needed to make the line viable is bigger than the market.
i have been following the "open forum" at SH and what i see is that people spent 10 times more posting when the topic is political or subjective (like this topic) than regardin real model pratcing. Great topics about building, flying tech and similar stuff got lost by lack of interest and opinative topics are thriving. more or less this is what happens in Brazil, people spend the whole week on the whatsapp groups talking about their past achievements on modelling, spending precisous bench time creating nothing but e-talk and by the weekend they are so fed up with "modelling" that they never show up at the field.
Recently the oldest model shop in Brazil closed doors after some 50 years selling models, people cried, tried to open again but obviously when faced with the real things that prevented that > build models and fly them < they just quit in silence.
Bring new kids to the game is not an answer too, good friend of mine actually teaches model building and flying on scool kids for 20 years on a daily basis and after all this time not even 2% became modellers.
we are the problem, we do not have enough size to make such big companies in the game. we that loves and knows how to "play" with model airplanes. The other generations have zero interest and thatīs not their fault. probably in our generation older people thought the same of us "pity they donīt care for this or that"
unfortunately all we are left to do is to build and fly as much as we can and watch this hobby vanish. letīs focus on what we can do and not on what "someone would have done".





Offline katana

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2023, 04:33:13 AM »
think we are missing the point here. the damage made by kit copy is minimal on the atual quantity of unsold kits from any company that makes the product viable.
take for example Revell or Monogram: you cannot duplicate the models they produce, they sold by thousands back in the 60-80īs and both went off business on the 90īs (not sure but seems they hve been sold now and are still in business but the prodiction is cut dramatically)
what makeīs Sig, Top Flite, Great Planes and others to close their doors is the lack of interest for model building ( and in our case fliying as well). The required ammount of sold products needed to make the line viable is bigger than the market.
i have been following the "open forum" at SH and what i see is that people spent 10 times more posting when the topic is political or subjective (like this topic) than regardin real model pratcing. Great topics about building, flying tech and similar stuff got lost by lack of interest and opinative topics are thriving. more or less this is what happens in Brazil, people spend the whole week on the whatsapp groups talking about their past achievements on modelling, spending precisous bench time creating nothing but e-talk and by the weekend they are so fed up with "modelling" that they never show up at the field.
Recently the oldest model shop in Brazil closed doors after some 50 years selling models, people cried, tried to open again but obviously when faced with the real things that prevented that > build models and fly them < they just quit in silence.
Bring new kids to the game is not an answer too, good friend of mine actually teaches model building and flying on scool kids for 20 years on a daily basis and after all this time not even 2% became modellers.
we are the problem, we do not have enough size to make such big companies in the game. we that loves and knows how to "play" with model airplanes. The other generations have zero interest and thatīs not their fault. probably in our generation older people thought the same of us "pity they donīt care for this or that"
unfortunately all we are left to do is to build and fly as much as we can and watch this hobby vanish. letīs focus on what we can do and not on what "someone would have done".

That is about the most 'on point' reply so far and is entirely correct FMPOV! This hobby that we grew up with is not and never will be the same as it was - fact! We, as we get older and slowly 'die off', cannot influence that fact - no matter what WE do! There is not the 'excitement' anymore in the young people of receiving a model, building a model or flying a model - its the way of the world, its moved on and we haven't. Society has moved on to immediate or instant gratification / satisfaction, that requires little or no skill to achieve. Just look at the auto industry - we were always tinkering with our cars to keep them running, vary rarely using a shop for routine servicing - now most people don't even know what is under the bonnet - I heard of a story from a dealership where a new owner of an EV took it in for its annual oil change! That is the mentality of people - they don't want to read instructions, just use stuff and replace it when its worn out (often too soon anyway IMO)

And BTW - I could use my full name but I don't appreciate all the spam that comes from having it out on the www. If it calms some of you down I'll use Ian Y. OK?

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2023, 10:14:45 AM »
That's okay, Ian. Bob said we all had to use our names but then changed his mind. So it's fine.
Chris...

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2023, 05:15:50 PM »
Recently the oldest model shop in Brazil closed doors after some 50 years selling models, people cried, tried to open again but obviously when faced with the real things that prevented that > build models and fly them < they just quit in silence.
I've personally seen hobby shops close over the past 40 years. I remember when the hobby sales stores at Hickham Air Base and Pearl Harbor Sub Base closed back in the mid 1970's. The military members then were saving money by then buying by mail order (the precursor to on-line buying in the 1990's). Mail order stores like America's Hobby Center, Hobby Shack, Polk's Hobbies, Indy R/C, etc. were in fierce competition with each other with lower cost than the hobby sales could ever do.

Back in the early 1980's, I saw Pete's Model Hobbycraft with main store at Ala Moana Shopping Center in Waikiki close.

Out here, I saw one of the oldest hobby stores in Amarillo, Texas close 8 or 9 years ago. Wish I bought more Perfect fuel tanks from him because he still had them at 1980's prices. Store in Lubbock, Texas closed shortly after the Amarillo's. Those were mainly aircraft R/C stores, although they sold other aircraft venues such as C/L and free flight.

Now, the on-line aircraft hobby stores are closing one by one. Regarding this pattern, it is not just US and Brazil, but other places, too, UK, France, Canada and etc.

Bring new kids to the game is not an answer too, good friend of mine actually teaches model building and flying on school kids for 20 years on a daily basis and after all this time not even 2% became modellers.

We are the problem, we do not have enough size to make such big companies in the game. we that loves and knows how to "play" with model airplanes. The other generations have zero interest and thatīs not their fault. probably in our generation older people thought the same of us "pity they donīt care for this or that"
unfortunately all we are left to do is to build and fly as much as we can and watch this hobby vanish. letīs focus on what we can do and not on what "someone would have done".

There's been a change in worldwide cultures. What fueled aircraft interests were the invention and expansion of the technical side of aviation. Charles A. Lindberg's landing solo in France with the Spirit of Saint Louis in 1927 was equivalent to placing a man on the moon in 1969. Aviation then was a new frontier, many a child dreamed of piloting an aircraft.

The war developments saw greater expansion of aviation with all sorts of newer and wonderful aircraft. I remember in the 1960's, some 20 years later that WW2 aircraft of all nations was still very popular. There was still much interest in WW1 aircraft as well, both static and flying models.

Today, aviation doesn't have the specter about it that it had 100 years ago.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2023, 08:44:34 PM »

Today, aviation doesn't have the specter about it that it had 100 years ago.

  Aviation stopped being a topic of general public interest on October 4, 1957 - the beginning of space age. Everything afterwards was inertia.

    Brett

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #68 on: March 22, 2023, 01:52:15 PM »
Aviation stopped being a topic of general public interest on October 4, 1957 - the beginning of space age. Everything afterwards was inertia.

I wouldn't say stopped, but on a downhill slide. In high school late 1960's early 1970's, got involved with Estes and Centuri rockets. You hardly see those today, too.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #69 on: March 22, 2023, 02:41:21 PM »
I wouldn't say stopped, but on a downhill slide. In high school late 1960's early 1970's, got involved with Estes and Centuri rockets. You hardly see those today, too.

   In the sense you are talking about, that ended in about 1970, aided when Damon bought first Centuri and Estes. What happened to Centuri/RDC/Enerjet was particularly sad, from the penthouse to the outhouse in about 4 years.

   HPR is an interesting case study, it is going pretty good.

     Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2023, 07:57:04 PM »
Got no idea what HPR is.

  High Power Rocketry, engine from H (as opposed to A, B, C, etc) on up to S or T, or larger. I am not to impressed with what most of them do with all that power, and while there exceptions, the craftsmanship would look crude to an RC Sport flier, but it is a going concern as far as a hobby goes.

    I also note that when it started, anything with more than 4 ounces or propellant was, effectively, illegal in virtually all jurisdictions. That was a very low-end G. I still question some of what goes on in HPR, but no one seems to care too much.

     Ironically, Centuri was all set to be the first HPR company, having bought RDC from Irv Wait, calling the model rocket sized engines "Enerjet" and built an entire new engine facility from scratch in about 1968-69. Then Damon bought Centuri, then Estes, and Centuri was more-or-less run as the low-ball operation, to the point in the mid-70's, they were putting out catalogs on *newsprint*. A sad end to such a high-class company.

    Shortly after, people started emulating Enerjet, mostly illegally,  starting various small companies, then the king of HPR, Aerotech, started by a former Enerjet customer. Now, somehow Aerotech owns the rights to Enerjet name.

       Brett

Online John Gluth

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2023, 04:22:04 PM »
Please correct me if I'm mistaken to post this. Is this update from Herb Rizzo at Sig, any benefit to Stunthanger members and Controline?
https://sigmfg.com/

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2023, 04:52:37 PM »
Please correct me if I'm mistaken to post this. Is this update from Herb Rizzo at Sig, any benefit to Stunthanger members and Controline?
https://sigmfg.com/

John Gluth

     In any of his statements he really hasn't given a run down of what they will be carrying. I'm expecting them to just be an importer of R/C ARFs. With everything that they are auctioning off, they would have to start from scratch to reopen as a kit manufacturer again, I think. There is no word as to where they will be relocating to yet either, and it's been two months since they shut down. If you look at the site through the link you posted, items that are not available are being listed as "Sold Out," not "Out of Stock", as if there were plans to restock. The address is for the Montezuma still also. It looks like they are still at the point they are selling off existing stock, but I don't know where from. Becky, one of the long time employees that a lot of us know and most would talk to on the phone, is no longer there and has found work elsewhere. I wonder how many employees it takes to sell down existing stock, at a time when sales are not the greatest due to lots of things going on in the world. It's all the secrecy and silence that has me wondering if they will reopen as anywhere near the company they once were, and the longer it takes to get to that point,  if at all.
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Sig Auction
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2023, 05:41:10 PM »

 Glen has to be rolling over in his grave.  :(
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member


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