SIG

[Mike Griffin]

Talked with someone at SIG today and found out, not only are they eliminating their CL kits, they are discontinuing their RC kits too.  I guess they will have nothing but Chinese ARFS. 

MIKE

[Joe Just]

"Not with a bang, but a whimper"

There are those that think the advent of R/C Drones may in effect kill the R/C hobby.  If they are correct (and I'm not professing this to be absolutely true) We involved in CL may very well kiss the hobby we love goodbye. Who will be left willing to manufacture fuel, props, paint, wheels, and all the minor parts we need? Most of the balsa we need is being grabbed up to make thousands of wind mill blades.  Our tiny town has had over 600 of these monsters go through town, and they are huge!

SIG may very well know what lays ahead, and is going to pull in their horns until the R/C market dries up because some idiot flew his "toy" into a school and killed a kid. Or some similar event causes a National outcry to ban R/C. 

I figure I only have about 4 years left to enjoy my hobby/sport. 
Joe

[Mike Griffin]

Joe you make an excellent point and I agree with you. I really can't add a lot to what you just said.

Mike

[Guy B Jr]

As to the drones......

I called a C/L friend yesterday to see how he was progressing. He said he hadn't flown C/L in a year and a half. By now, has bought 3 quadcopters. Is just fascinated with them. Personally, they seem boring with no challenge of maneuvers. Maybe Joe is right. I hope not. Anyway, we will see in a few years.

[Curare]

Wow, the profits of doom are alive and well on this thread.

What makes you think that quadcopter flying will have any effect on control line? No one in RC supports the hobby now, unless it's a by-product of RC. All the good gear comes from dedicated control line guys now anyway.

Even if they banned RC tomorrow (never going to happen by the way) control line will still be here. After all, doesn't the FAA consider it a powered kite?

[Bill Adair]

The control line market is changing for sure, but I think it's going to be around for a whole lot longer than most of us believe!

When all the c/l kit and engine manufacturers are long gone, those wonderfully far sighted collectors of kits, and model engines may be our only source in the future. They may well be the supply line of C/L some day, so don't look down on them for hoarding now. 

Control line oriented model Magazines will likely go away as well, but the internet and it's many model forums are already doing a good job of easing them out of the picture with minimal pain.

Yes, I think Balsa is getting harder to find, but the wind generator market is what keeps the balsa market going now. None of us would use the grade of balsa they use for turbine blades anyway, as only 15% of balsa production is good enough for the US, UK, and European model industry, though I'm not too sure about China.

Bill

[Sean McEntee]

After all, doesn't the FAA consider it a powered kite?

    For the most part, FAA considers CL "ground tethered" and an exception to airspace restriction.

    Control Line, in my opinion, is starting to reach the end of its lifespan, but not due to windmills or ARF-hungry companies.

    CL will cease because of us.

    The problem of product availability lies in the fact that Control Line Stunt has an overwhelming dependency on cottage industry-produced goods.  Folks like Eric Rule, Tom Morris, Mike Griffin et al won't be here forever (though I hope for quite a bit longer of course!) and when these great folks go, it will be THEM who take the hobby with them.  I couldn't begin to tell you how to fix this problem.  It's quite an extraordinary one. 

    A shining example is the late and very great Tom Ley.  When he passed, he took knowledge and skills with him that span decades and are almost irreplaceable unless someone has the desire to rework engines and the time to test and rediscover Tom's methods. 

    The RC community is very much a consumer market with a few exceptions. CL and FF is not.  We almost have our own "ecosystem" of supply and demand, production and consumerism. If Sig quits making fuel tomorrow, it will upset some people but there are other sources available.  The problem won't be when manufacturers quit producing, it's when we lose our custom-supply chain.

[ChrisSarnowski]

It is sad about SIG. I think they should revamp their product line up and not abandon C/L. There are plenty of good designs out there, and I would think that refreshing their line up would boost sales. Both RSM and Brodak seem to be doing ok with nice product lines.

-Chris

[55chevr]

The ARF brought thousands into RC flying.   That is where the money is and that is why Sig is going that way.  They are in business to make a living.  The Chinese ARF is an example of drop shipping at its best.  Now they manufacture nothing (no employees), just fill orders off the internet until you empty a steamship container then order another.   It is a sustaining business model.   They couldn't afford the rent on what they would make on control line kits.

[john e. holliday]

Well if SIG wants to get out of kit manufacturing and into ARF's more power to them.   We still have a couple or more people willing to keep us supplied if we support them.   RSM Mfg and Brodak for kits, hardware and parts.  Then there are the custom kit people like the two Pat's and Walter.   Guess I should mention Mike G, but he is selling prebuilt Ringmasters.   There are a lot more out making parts for us like Lee Machine Shop.   I can't remember them all, but like Sterling and Berkeley I guess SIG has other ways to try and make a big profit.   

[Mike Griffin]

I think Control Line flyers as a whole are a pretty sentimental bunch of folks and that is not a bad thing at all, it shows we are human and hold value in the past.  If this were not true, then why would the RINGMASTER be held is such high esteem?  By today's standards through the evolution of better airfoils and designs, the RINGMASTER is a dinosaur in comparison but is still the largest selling Control Line model of all time and there has to be a reason for that.  

SIG is just another in a long line of CL kit manufacturers since the 50's that has succumbed to the inevitable and the instant gratification culture that we now live in.  I do not blame SIG, they made a business decision that they think will be essential to their future survival and they may be exactly right in their thinking.

As far as us Control Line Jocks are concerned, we have to go on thinking that ours is a wonderful hobby, which it is,  that will live on long after we are gone and someone, somewhere will be flying a RINGMASTER, 100 years after we are gone.  No one knows for sure where Control Line flying will be in the year 2064 but I think we are lucky to have lived at a time when we still were able to enjoy it.  

If nothing else, the hobby has created one of the most wonderful traits of being a human; it has created a fraternity of people who willingly and unselfishly share their knowledge and kindness with each other without hesitation or reservation and this folks, is the best reward of all.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

My thanks to Sean and Doc for mentioning me as a contributor to the hobby in such company as Eric Rule, Tom Morris, John Brodak, Walter Umland and the many others that have contributed so much to our hobby.  I am extremely flattered to even be mentioned with such ICONS of the hobby. 

Mike

[SteveMoon]

I'm sure Sig's decision is one based simply on economics. And, as it turns out
Sig is not the only one. A2Z Corp., which has for years supplied kits and supplies
for the FF community has announced that it will no longer be selling any
model airplane kits and supplies. Instead, they will be concentrating solely
on their machine business. Like Sig, very disappointing.

Steve

[Joe Just]

[quote author=
Yes, I think Balsa is getting harder to find, but the wind generator market is what keeps the balsa market going now. None of us would use the grade of balsa they use for turbine blades anyway, as only 15% of balsa production is good enough for the US, UK, and European model industry, though I'm not too sure about China.

Bill


[/quote] Bill, The producers of the wind mill blades do not grade the balsa, the consume whole shiploads on a "take all" basis. Then it is ground up and put into the blade molds. Every type of balsa from 4 pound and up is used, with no pre-selection.  Because of this, even John
Brodak has had trouble finding sources of kit builders in the Orient.  He told me this in 2011 at the annual Fly-In as Mark Warwashanna and I met with John.
Joe

[55chevr]

It seems we were kicking around a similar post about Fox Manufacturing a couple of months ago.  The world changes and to survive one must adapt.  As the demand for C/L equipment declines the current sources will adapt to a new market.   We are a self sustaining bunch and make a lot of our equipment.  Not unlike the pioneers of C/L.  What they couldn't buy they made.  The cottage industries suppliers will profit as they work under limited overhead.  Not all bad.

[Randy Cuberly]

I started flying control line in 1962 in my grandparents back yard with a Cox PT19.  I was 7 then.  During the 1960s my and I flew with a control line club in Vero Beach, FL and with guys in Fort Pierce, FL.   None of that is around now.

My reasoning that the hobby is dying is because of us.  We don't promote the hobby to younger people.   We don't promote the hobby at commission meetings to get flying fields, like people do to get skate board parks, ball parks, paint ball parks, etc.  Or even mountain bike trails.   

Manufacturers and sellers have to move product to survive. 

Heck, I still have Ohlssen and Rice engines I could use if I had to.  I didn't buy anything to help Sig or Fox stay open.  I don't need it.  I have about 1000 pieces of sheet balsa and plans to make dozens of planes if I want to.  The problem is that I have too many planes now and no where to store more.   I have considered giving away some of my planes, but there is no one to give them to that flies.

At one time there was several hobby shops that sold cl kits and hobby  supplies.  There are none now.

Anyway, cl is old fashioned to the new high tech generation.  It is odd, I haven't met one yet than can adjust a needle valve.   They can program a computer transmitter, but cannot build a balsa model even if they had a kit.

It appears the gun industry is headed down the same road now too.  I haven't seen any .22 LR ammo for over a year.

Cheers

If you have too many airplanes now then do what I do.  Give them to a beginner to get them started then build another!

Easy solution!

Randy Cuberly

[Norm Faith Jr.]

IMHO: The near future...All Radio control operators will have to be (Federal) licensed, (under-go training and test) their (all) models will have to be registered, there will be extreme restrictions of their operation. ALL of this due to the availability of the "ready -to-fly drones." The recent near miss with the "RC F-4 "  and re-occurring incidents will seal this fate.
Norm

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Airliner-Reports-Near-Miss-With-a-Drone221994-1.html

[Curare]

Personally, I think better policing of RC gear needs to happen.

The plethora of ready to fly models ranging from 16" span to 60" span is a concern. a 60" P-40 from hobbyking is a sizeable aircraft, and weighs a fair amount. Add to that getting hit by an electric is not the same as a glow motor. Electrics just keep on trying to chop away until they're disconnected. While electrics remove the issues of old about noise, personal or property damage from a crash is still an issue. 


Don't get me wrong, I love electrics and RC in general, but leaving it wide open leaves it wide open to abuse.

Simple.

[Paul Smith]

IMHO: The near future...All Radio control operators will have to be (Federal) licensed, (under-go training and test) their (all) models will have to be registered, there will be extreme restrictions of their operation. ALL of this due to the availability of the "ready -to-fly drones." The recent near miss with the "RC F-4 "  and re-occurring incidents will seal this fate.
Norm

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Airliner-Reports-Near-Miss-With-a-Drone221994-1.html

We already have plenty of regulations:

Model airplanes stay below 400 feet.
Real airplanes stay above 1000 feet.
You can't fly RC in the approach area of an airport where airplanes go below 1000 feet.

If there was a near miss between a real airplane and a radio control RTF toy, somebody was breaking the rule.  If I were to bet I would say the toy was way too high. 

Whenever I fly CL on a field with RC'ers, they are WAY above 400 feet most of the time.  Real airplane buzzing incidents are rare.

[55chevr]

The American way is to create new regulations for people that don't follow regulations.  There are plenty of regulations and the real issue is compliance.

[john e. holliday]

Yep, it is easier to make more regulations than to enforce the ones that we have now.   

[Brett Buck]

IMHO: The near future...All Radio control operators will have to be (Federal) licensed, (under-go training and test) their (all) models will have to be registered, there will be extreme restrictions of their operation. ALL of this due to the availability of the "ready -to-fly drones." The recent near miss with the "RC F-4 "  and re-occurring incidents will seal this fate.
Norm

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Airliner-Reports-Near-Miss-With-a-Drone221994-1.html

   Not that you are wrong, but I remind everyone that you were *supposed* to have at least a radio operators license for RC until as recently as sometime in the mid-80s. You were also supposed to have a license (NAA or AMA) from the 30's to sometime in the 50s for *any* gas model, including - actually starting with - FF. Of course the compliance was nil so both were dropped at some point.

    Brett

[Dick Pacini]

I believe at one time FCC licenses were required for CB and marine band radios.  Maybe they still are, but I have never met anyone with a radio actually in compliance.

[Brett Buck]

I believe at one time FCC licenses were required for CB and marine band radios.  Maybe they still are, but I have never met anyone with a radio actually in compliance.

   And never mind that license or not, they also were perhaps not so circumspect about the 4 watt output limit, either. By three orders of magnitude in some cases ("slap a 5KW linear on that bad boy..."). There may still be licensing requirement for marine radios.

    FRS is no-license, but the GMRS channels on the very same walkie-talkie are supposed to be licensed, a fact vaguely explained in small print in the  instructions, right after it tells you how to select them in extreme detail.

    Brett

[Mike Griffin]

I guess my worry is that the media today loves to sensationalize everything and that combined with this "nanny state" culture we seem to be living in now could be a volatile combination.  In addition, you have this hysteria about terrorism and the occasional story about the moron who cut his head off with a heli rotor because he had no idea of what he was doing.  All this seems to be going into a cocktail that could effect the hobby of flying models as time goes on.   I certainly hope not but not much of anything surprises me anymore.

Mike

[Dan McEntee]

IMHO: The near future...All Radio control operators will have to be (Federal) licensed, (under-go training and test) their (all) models will have to be registered, there will be extreme restrictions of their operation. ALL of this due to the availability of the "ready -to-fly drones." The recent near miss with the "RC F-4 "  and re-occurring incidents will seal this fate.
Norm

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Airliner-Reports-Near-Miss-With-a-Drone221994-1.html

   I really have to doubt this most recent story. How fast is a regional jet on landing approach at 2300 feet going? If the pilot was doing his job at that altitude and speed, could he have toe reaction time and focus to even see a model if he was actually looking for it, much less just picking it up out of the corner of his eye? Anyone flying an R/C model, especially of some kind of scale jet, wouldn't be able to see the model at 2300 feet AGL. I doubt that it was some kind of fly away, because an F-4 isn't the most stable design and wouldn't "free flight" for very long. The pilot said he was certain he hit it, but no evidence of any kind of strike was found. It doesn't say if the first officer saw the same thing. I doubt the sighting of the quad copter also. Again, even if it was a fly-a -way, would he have been able to have the focus to accidentally see the tiny spec that it would be. Somewhere around here in my stuiff, I still have my FCC license for the first R/C outfit I bought in 1974 or 1975. Cost me 25 bucks for 5 years, and I have one for voice operation also. They were discontinued when like a lot of thing with our government, they couldn't handle the business of properly processing all the license applications when the CB craze hit, so just eliminated them. I think they should re-establish this of all R/C operations if it's for a unit that is above a certain amount of power. That would eliminate actual toy operations and give them an idea of just what they are up against. But they wouldn't be able to handle the administration of that either. Give it some time, and people will find something else to play with, and all the quad geeks will move on to something else once they get bored with it and realize ther really isn't much that they can use it for.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Paul Wescott]

In the Los Angeles area, the second largest population center in the nation, there are only a couple of official CL flying sites, and actually very few RC sites, and zero large free flight sites.  Even though there are a TON of prospective CL flyers (kids), the sheer population density has made it difficult to keep flying sites open, let alone open new ones.  With fewer flying sites, there is less flying going on.  Also, most of the flying sites that are still in operation are far from "foot traffic", or kids on bikes, etc.  Whittier Narrows is alongside a freeway but sorta hidden behind trees.  The circles at Sepulveda Basin are quite a ways from the nearest major street.  With less flying going on, and less opportunity for new flyers to accidentally see us flying, from their car, or their bicycle, then there is far less chance of randomly picking up new builders, flyers, etc.

I think one idea would be for clubs to literally advertise in local papers, on a regular basis, with an extra push for contests, and try to engage the local media to come out and write stories.  Also ads in church bulletins and such might work. Also targeted mailing (and emailing) to Scout Troops, plus flyers provided in quantity to local elementary, middle, and high schools to be posted or passed out.  It's an expense, but it might make a difference.  Just a few ideas from left-field.

I'm not giving up.  Yet.


Paul Wescott

[Tim Wescott]

In the Los Angeles area, the second largest population center in the nation, there are only a couple of official CL flying sites, and actually very few RC sites, and zero large free flight sites.  Even though there are a TON of prospective CL flyers (kids), the sheer population density has made it difficult to keep flying sites open, let alone open new ones.  With fewer flying sites, there is less flying going on.  Also, most of the flying sites that are still in operation are far from "foot traffic", or kids on bikes, etc.  Whittier Narrows is alongside a freeway but sorta hidden behind trees.  The circles at Sepulveda Basin are quite a ways from the nearest major street.  With less flying going on, and less opportunity for new flyers to accidentally see us flying, from their car, or their bicycle, then there is far less chance of randomly picking up new builders, flyers, etc.

I think one idea would be for clubs to literally advertise in local papers, on a regular basis, with an extra push for contests, and try to engage the local media to come out and write stories.  Also ads in church bulletins and such might work. Also targeted mailing (and emailing) to Scout Troops, plus flyers provided in quantity to local elementary, middle, and high schools to be posted or passed out.  It's an expense, but it might make a difference.  Just a few ideas from left-field.

Back in the day most "flying sites" were baseball diamonds, football fields, &c.

I think that little 1/2-A sized electrics would be a good fit for unused sports fields.

[peabody]

For years, the powers-that-be at the Meadowlands in New Jersey....you know, where they held CART races and played football......with a HUGE, fairly level parking lot and little traffic when there was no game.....allowed both CL and RC flying......plenty of room, no neighbors....good stuff......

Until, of course, one of our brilliant RC flying buddies decided to buzz a Goodyear blimp that was getting the lay of the land prior to a football game. The RC plance HIT the blimp, puncturing the fabric and ending ANY flying activities there forever....

Alas and alack.....I fear that the new "quad" drones so very popular will doom ALL flying model activity.....

We should all touch base with our AMA VP and AVP and remind them that our planes are tethered.....it might help....

[Curare]

Here's a hypothetical for you. What would you do if the AMA, the FAA, and the American government as a whole decided to ban all flying models.

Would you stop flying? I wouldn't.

I could just imagine it, a group of clandestine modellers, meeting at the crack of dawn to get in a few laps before the cops come.

Meeting in secret to disperse balsa and methanol...

[Mike Keville]

.....I fear that the new "quad" drones so very popular will doom ALL flying model activity.....

========================================================

He may have a point there.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

   Not that you are wrong, but I remind everyone that you were *supposed* to have at least a radio operators license for RC until as recently as sometime in the mid-80s. You were also supposed to have a license (NAA or AMA) from the 30's to sometime in the 50s for *any* gas model, including - actually starting with - FF. Of course the compliance was nil so both were dropped at some point.

    Brett

You are right Brett. I still have my "restricted radio telephone operators license" issued to me in 1962. Ouch! that was a long time ago.

[dave siegler]

The sad part is if SIG stops building kits, they wont need to stock wood or the dope either.  I always like the hardware SIG provided.  I used the white 3 inch belcranks by the dozen on sport models and flite streak clones. The horns, hinges and fuel.  Their dope rack was great. 

While you can say that times are good now, with SIG leaving this segment, the last of the main stream suppliers are out of control line.  Soon to be out of model building totally.  Sure bordak has a full scope of supply but they don't go through distribution so very few shop owners will stock them, but it's going to be mail order and cottage suppliers from now on.

[david beazley]

The fact that Brodak doesn't use distributors gives the a fighting chance to survive.  Distribution in general is changing and retail is going thru downsizing and feeling effects of the internet on the industry. 

[55chevr]

According to a news article dated March 3, 2011, Sig Manufacturing was purchased by an investment group that is involved in ownership of Hobby Express.   It states that Sig employs 30 people.   That is a tremendous amount of overhead.   Getting out of the kit business will reduce that overhead and free up warehouse space for ARFs.   This is a re-focus on product lines that make real profit.  Remember that most of their competition is cottage industry based with little or virtually no overhead.

[Paul Smith]

Sig was Glen & Hazel Sigafuse.  With them and their family gone there is no Sig.  Somebody bought the name.  The new Sig is not Sig.

At one Sig Fly In Hazel explained that they employ their own balsa buyer in Ecuador.  Eduardo personally inspected and purchased the logs.  As Hazel explained, you can't get good balsa without your own buyer. 

With Sig out of the balsa bidness, the door is open for somebody else to become the King of Balsa.

[Fred Cronenwett]

I attended the Sig Contest and met Hazel one time, we talked for several minutes and thanked her in person for doing what she did for CL and the hobby in general. She gave me a mug from her 85th birthday. She was down to earth and you could tell she loved the hobby.

She was driving around the contest in her customized cart which was painted to match her full size Spacewalker. My flights at the contest were a bust, but being able to talk to Hazel was great. Sad to see the changes at Sig....I have a set of plans for the twister, banshee and other sig airplanes in my collection.

Fred

[YakNine]

They should sell Chipmunk, Twister,and Skyray Arfs bet they would sell a bunch.T.J.

[55chevr]

The market for ARF sport stunt planes is very limited.   Plus Tower is selling Flite Streaks for $80.   There are a lot more RC flyers than control line.  Doesn't look very lucrative to me.

[Chris McMillin]

Looks like those kits are now likely to be good designs for cottage industry kit manufacture.

Dan, R/C models are pretty easy to see up to 2000 feet and the turbine jets get there quickly. If the thing was coming through the windshield, you'd be noticing!

There are two public R/C facilities in SoCal, and I fly at seven other private fields and can think of a couple more. I think I'm living in model paradise here, because I can fly C/L or R/C in the same trip. My dad drive 3 minutes to his R/C site which is electric only, and run by the City of Costa Mesa.

Chris...

[Steve Thornton]

Good discussion.  I have 2 community parks within 2 blocks of my house, one has the capacity for about 4-5 soccer fields.  They are virtually empty, even on weekends.  Except for Sundays, 0700 is the start time for the lawn services to start the gas mowers, blowers, and string trimmers, and they stop around 1800.  My muffled OS 35 is no louder than the 200 of these howlers, but I cannot fly at the parks in my neighborhood-even if I were flying an electric power.
I too, remember in the mid 1950's, every Saturday and Sunday the high school was buzzing with CL flyers if it wasn't too windy.  I would go with my uncle to fly his Ringmasters, Noblers, T-birds, Smoothies, etc. or I would ride my bike to watch.  How many of us were introduced to the hobby by "those guys" flying at the school or park. 
In 14 years I have never seen 1 kid playing in the yard or street of my neighborhood yet there is an elementary school and a Jr. high school within 6 blocks.  Every 10 year old kid in America knows how to Google, and has some sort of electronic device that will someday cripple his thumbs, but 90% of them could not glue 2 popcicle  sticks together. Could it be that they are not interested in CL because they are not exposed to it?
Yeah, more regulations...that's the ticket.
Sorry about Sig, sure wish it was 1960 again.
Steve

[john e. holliday]

The problems with kids playing on school grounds when there is  no school in session is the liability concerns if a child gets a scrape or bruise.   Even adults are not allowed to use the school areas without written permission and sometimes paying a fee. 

[Randy Powell]

On the other hand, if the drone idiots do get RC banned, perhaps the only model plane flying will be CL. Even FF could go as it's not tethered.

It's a thought.

[Dave_Trible]

That's a thought.  However if that happens I would think that the AMA would dry up including the Nats and what's left of the hobby industry.  Not a good plan.

Dave

[Randy Powell]

Unless people get interested because that's all there is. Yea, probably not.

I may have to move to Europe or South America where CL seems to be pretty healthy.

[Mike Griffin]

Randy, I am getting quite a few orders fro Kits out of Brazil.  It cost $50.00 to ship a kit to Brazil.

Mike

[Randy Powell]

I talk to a lot of guys there. They have a lot of interest. So while the US may lose interest, other places haven't.