Fuel Additives

[John Carrodus]

I have just read about putting a squirt or two of ArmorAll into the fuel to stop foaming? giving smoother engine run? I've often wondered about other additives, friction reducers for eg, in fuel. What's out there? Is chasing more power through additives a myth ? - given that fiddling with other variables - venturi, needle, prop, compression, timing, fuel mixture, and other engine design parameters etc are factors too. ( I know. I know! Go electric I hear many of you saying.)

[Mark wood]

I have just read about putting a squirt or two of ArmorAll into the fuel to stop foaming? giving smoother engine run? I've often wondered about other additives, friction reducers for eg, in fuel. What's out there? Is chasing more power through additives a myth ? - given that fiddling with other variables - venturi, needle, prop, compression, timing, fuel mixture, and other engine design parameters etc are factors too. ( I know. I know! Go electric I hear many of you saying.)

Electric is the way for stunt and sport flying. Power additives include propylene oxide and acetone. For endurance white gas or naptha can work. Honestly the PITA and cost of acquisition v performance gain isn't of much value to sport operations and they've been outlawed in speed.

[Dan McEntee]

I have just read about putting a squirt or two of Armor-All into the fuel to stop foaming? giving smoother engine run? I've often wondered about other additives, friction reducers for eg, in fuel. What's out there? Is chasing more power through additives a myth ? - given that fiddling with other variables - venturi, needle, prop, compression, timing, fuel mixture, and other engine design parameters etc are factors too. ( I know. I know! Go electric I hear many of you saying.)

    In spite of what some may say about the Armor-All trick, I have seen it work. BUT!! You do not need much, just a few drops. To demonstrate it. Shake up a jug of fuel and watch it foam. Most fuel is supposed to have anti-foaming agents in it already. Foam is extra air that upsets you needle settings. Fuel will foam from engine vibration, so take measures to mount your tanks accordingly. When your jug of fuel foams up, just apply a few drops of Armor-All and watch it disappear. Shake the jug again and it will not foam. I have witnessed this simple task eliminate needle setting issues immediately, until other measures can be taken to eliminate the vibration issues, such as out of balance props, loose engine mounts, loose tank mounting, and isolating tanks from vibration. I also try to have all openings that fuel will flow through from the tank to the engine as large as possible. Make sure your filter is pointed the correct way, and that the end with the highest volume is pointed towards the tank. Make sure ALL fuel line connections are tight and don't leak or suck air. Sucking air contributes to foaming also. If using a standard vented tank, make sure the over flow is plugged off, and that the top vent has a short piece of fuel line on it with a 45 degree sliced end that is faced forward. This adds just a bit of natural air pressure to the tank and helps with fuel flow and relieves foaming. Always plug any vents or over flow tubes that do not need to be open. You will never entirely eliminate some foaming, but you can reduce it enough with mechanical means to where you won't need Armor-All. There are some that hold the belief that putting Armor-All, which is a silicone oil of some sort, in your fuel will leave deposits on your glow plugs but I have never witnessed that. I only add it as a way to trouble shooting a needle problem. i have won a lot of 5 dollar bets against a replacement jug of fuel that it works in my time. BUT!! Again you do not need or want a lot of it in the fuel. The effects do not last very long, and my guess is that the oils dissolves in the alcohol over time, but you can re-apply a few more DROPS later And again I reiterate that if the engine/tank installation is done correctly, you will not need it.
   The only other additive I have ever used is Randy Smith's "Snake Oil" or what ever pet name he has for it. I think it is recommended that 1 ounce to a gallon is all you need for that. Randy Smith can fill in technical details. I have been flying stunt since the mid 1980's and that is all I have ever heard of people adding to their fuel. Some guys will spike nitro but that us really just intended to help needle settings in hot weather and they do that by simply mixing fuel of different nitro content in their fueling syringe as the day goes along. This just takes a lot of experimentation and record keeping on your part. I don't think there is anything else that you can add to your fuel that is worth the time , effort and expense of doing so.

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

   PS to add:  What Ty says also!!

[Lauri Malila]

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[Brett Buck]

I have just read about putting a squirt or two of ArmorAll into the fuel to stop foaming? giving smoother engine run? I've often wondered about other additives, friction reducers for eg, in fuel. What's out there? Is chasing more power through additives a myth ? - given that fiddling with other variables - venturi, needle, prop, compression, timing, fuel mixture, and other engine design parameters etc are factors too. ( I know. I know! Go electric I hear many of you saying.)

   I have used a lot of different fuel additives, including various anti-foaming agents. I now run fuel straight out of the can as it comes from Powermaster, or, at most, with a small amount of additional low-viscosity synthetic to adjust the "underrun" at a few places in the pattern.

 As noted above, anti-foaming agents like Armor-All are at least suspected in some cases of the "tater" problem, and I don't use (or need) anything to keep it from foaming.

   Many of the other "ignition improvers" are either too ephemeral (propylene oxide) or dangerous/hard to get (hydrazine and benzine) and have dubious effects at the best of times. There are endless oil additives - Randy's Aero-1, for example - that seem to have some effect on the run, and cause no harm, but also are so subtle as to be imaginary on the performance.

    My suggestion is to experiment with stock out-of-the-can fuel from quality suppliers and pick the best for your particular engines.

     Brett

[Dan McEntee]

  I forgot to add to my reply was the best thig you can do for your fuel is care for it. Don't leave it uncapped, or leave it in direct sunshine if you can avoid it and store in a cool, dry and dark ( out of direct sunlight ) place. In all of my years of flying I have had one gallon of fuel "go bad" on me. I got in the habit of doing what I just described, and I never run a gallon container dry. When a jug gets low, ( about 12 ounces or so in the jug,) I stop using it, and start a new one. When there is room in the new jug for the remains in the old jug, I poor it in, and continue. Nothing gets wasted. I generally try to use the same brand doing this also. Early on in the pandemic, Mark Hughes and I were doing a lot of flying and really burning it up! Fresh fuel was almost impossible to get anywhere at that time. I was flying one of my beater models with an OS La.46, so decided to use up all of my "questionable" and weed killer scrap fuel. I started out with a good jug and as it got to about 3/4 full, I would add some of the scrap fuel, all about the same nitro and oil content.  I successfully used up all of that fuel, about 4 or 5 gallons worth, that summer and saved all my good fuel for my better engines and planes. Desperate times call for desperate measures! But to be on topic, I never had to add anything else to the fuel either.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

Very often, I see guys take the lid off their fuel jug, suck some fuel into their syringe, often with a filter in the hose on the syringe, hook up to their fuel tank and squirt the fuel in. Backflushing the filtered crap into the tank, OBTW. Then, they lay the syringe down on the grass, pavement or dirt and eventually put the lid back on the jug...even on a rainy day. That is absolutely horrible fuel handling technique. It is no wonder that so many change from glow to electrons. Don't do that!    Steve

[Jim Kraft]

Since I have been running nothing but sparkers with stove fuel for the last 6 or 7 years, I decided to bench run a few of my glow four strokes. I had an old 5 quart jug of 10 percent nitro fuel with about a quart left in it from probably 6 years ago.

I ran a Saito 90 4 stroke twin, an OS 90 4 stroke, and an OS 60 open rocker 4 stroke engine on it. They all ran great on the bench. I was amazed. The fuel has been stored in my unheated garage all this time. All of the engines tacked about the same as they always have.

[pat king]

The Silicone in Armor All can lead to a molecule thick layer of Silicon Dioxide deposited on the plug filament. If the filament gets coated the engine will start fine with the battery attached, the filament glows as always. If the filament is coated with Silicon Dioxide (Quartz, sand) it kills the catalytic action of the platinum. The engine drops RPM or quits when the battery is removed. Armor All will help foaming, but be judicious.

Pat

[Motorman]

I still have some Lubricin I got from RedMax. I would use 2-3% in all castor racing fuel. It's said to make the castor oil more slippery.

Motorman

[John Carrodus]

Many thanks guys. Once again I am humbled by the "Brains Trust" Fascinating Jim about the old fuel stored right and still having the magic! Pat- thanks for the heads up re buggering the plugs with silicon.
MOTORMAN
What is Lubricin from Redmax??
Thanks everyone for your ideas and shared experiences.

[Lauri Malila]

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[Motorman]

Maxima 927 castor and, others like it, are good for larger stunt engines where you want less deposits. It's a blend of thinned out caster oil and synthetic ester oils so, I would not use it in a Fox 35 ect. or for racing.

Motorman

[Dick Tyndall]

   Lubricin was an additive that was available from SIG MFG. back in the 1980's. It was advertised as a top cylinder lubricant and a detergent. When I was mixing my own fuel for Combat and racing back then I would use 1% to 3% to a gallon of fuel depending on the nitro content. SIG quit selling it and then I couldn't find it anywhere. Is Red Max selling this now?

                       Dick Tyndall

[Dan McEntee]

   Lubricin was an additive that was available from SIG MFG. back in the 1980's. It was advertised as a top cylinder lubricant and a detergent. When I was mixing my own fuel for Combat and racing back then I would use 1% to 3% to a gallon of fuel depending on the nitro content. SIG quit selling it and then I couldn't find it anywhere. Is Red Max selling this now?

                       Dick Tyndall

  I have a can of that in my collection of SIG products. I have heard of that before or maybe even just read it in an old SIG add going back to when I was a kid. From your description, it sounds like the stuff George Aldrich recommended, I think, for assembling engines and for after run oil, called Rislone?  I didn't know if it was available any more or not but a quick google search shows several products bearing that name. I think I have a can of that in the garage somewhere.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Lauri Malila]

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[Dennis Leonhardi]

I still have some Lubricin I got from RedMax. I would use 2-3% in all castor racing fuel. It's said to make the castor oil more slippery.

Motorman

I blended fuels that were sold in many hobby shops in the Upper Midwest in the '60s.  Lubricin N-1 is just about the very best thing you can use with castor oil.  It acts as a detergent but more importantly sticks to metal like glue about one molecule thick.  Unfortunately it's only sold in 55 gallon drums at just a bit less than the cost of a new car now.   

I performed a very crude test in the early '60s: Purchased 3 McCoy .19 Red Head engines (Yes, quality control might not have been the best), mounted each on a box, then started and set the engines as lean as possible to see how long they'd run before stopping.

Engine #1 ran on 25% Ucon LB525 (a synthetic) with 5% nitro and quit running in less than an hour.  It then had the compression of a toothpick in a sewer pipe.  Nice and clean inside, but scrap.

Engine #2 ran on 25% Baker's Castor Oil with 5% nitro and quit running in about 2 hours.  It still had compression when it cooled but the insides looked absolutely filthy, like some poured a cup of heavy, dirty oil or grease into the crankcase.  It would need deep cleaning to run properly again.

Engine #3 ran on 20% Castor Oil, 5% Lubricin N-1 with 5% nitro and happily ran for several hours.  We began a flying session after starting the engines and shut #3 down to go home.  The insides were incredibly clean.  It looed like an assembly of new parts with clean, light oil on them.

I mounted that engine on a (sheet balsa) Flite Streak Trainer and dragged it to flying sessions for several years, teaching several young people to fly.  The tests were probably run in 1963; in 1987 I finally gave the airplane to a teenager who mastered insides, outsides, and flying 2 in a circle with it.  After 24 years the engine still started and ran very well.

I believe if most of us weren't so price conscious, we'd recognize that even our "cheap" engines can run well for years if they're properly cared for - including by spending a bit more if we have to to feed them well.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it ... (but I did run engines for years and years!)

[frank mccune]

     Hi:

      I have some Lubricin that is at least 40 years old.  Do you think that it is still effective?  What could go wrong?

      Tia,

       Frank

[Motorman]

I think you are wrong. It’s widely used in racing, at very highest level F2C. But there are some reports of it burning *too* clean; some ”dilute” it with normal good quality castor, like Benol, to get that healthy tan to the piston crown.
Of course, there are the usual stories of using it in engines like old Fox 35’s and other similar crap, and ending up with a loose fitting engine. But there the starting point was not ideal either.
About use in bigger engines, I believe that it wouldn’t be ideal, mostly because of viscosity issues. You should allways opt for the thinnest oil that the metallurgy can tolerate. But with #927 you can safely go to clearly lower oil persentage, roughly 4-5% less than with the usual mixes. That will help with the viscosity issue. L

So f2c that uses 50% kero can use it if they add regular castor, it will crap out a fox 35 and you can use it in a big stunt engine at a lower %. Kinda' sounds like you agree with me. I just don't want people thinking 927 is the same as Sig AAA castor.

Motorman

[Lauri Malila]

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[Lauri Malila]

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[Howard Rush]

It's oil of mirbane for me.

[Mark Schluter]

It's oil of mirbane for me.

YES! One of the best aromas from way earlier times! Hoppes #9, and blue blazer fuel.

[Lyle Spiegel]

I have one can of the Lubricin I got from SIG years ago. I think the speed guys liked to use it when theywere using very high nitro to help the cater mix with the methanol.
I wonder how much benefit to be had blending a few drops of Hashish oil? Maybe it will  help the plane fly "higher" ? !!!!!
Another possibility is the CBD oil version.

[Dan McEntee]

I have one can of the Lubricin I got from SIG years ago. I think the speed guys liked to use it when theywere using very high nitro to help the cater mix with the methanol.
I wonder how much benefit to be had blending a few drops of Hashish oil? Maybe it will  help the plane fly "higher" ? !!!!!
Another possibility is the CBD oil version.

   I have a couple of cans of Lubricin. Is it just an additive like Randy's Aero-1 Oil or intended to use for a complete fuel mix? These are only pint or quart cans, so I'm thinking just an additive??

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Motorman]

Add 1% -2% Lubricin to make the castor more slippery.

Motorman

[Motorman]

It's oil of mirbane for me.

I know a few old timers that used that back in the day and none of them died from cancer. I looked it up on a chemical chart we had at work and it's really not much worse than anything else we use.

YMMV,
Motorman

[Dave Hull]

Goose grease. Nominally soluble in methanol at room temps.

Would be interesting to do spectrographic analysis on Lauri's taters. Then we might find out which additives are susceptible to a catalyzed, heat driven reaction.

[Lauri Malila]

Goose grease. Nominally soluble in methanol at room temps.

Would be interesting to do spectrographic analysis on Lauri's taters. Then we might find out which additives are susceptible to a catalyzed, heat driven reaction.

Yes, I've got to talk to our electron microscope guy at work. At least he is able to spot and name all kinds of inclusions and impurities in metals, so it might work with this, too.
My guess is that it's some sort of silica deposit. KL189n is a helicopter oil, maybe there is an anti-foam thing in the oil.
The taters are hard as glass. L

[Dennis Leonhardi]

   I have a couple of cans of Lubricin. Is it just an additive like Randy's Aero-1 Oil or intended to use for a complete fuel mix? These are only pint or quart cans, so I'm thinking just an additive??

  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Dan, the N-1 is suggested as a direct replacement for some of the castor oil.  Example: You want 25% castor oil, use up to 5% N-1 (1/5 of the total) and 20% castor.

Dennis

[Steve Helmick]

YES! One of the best aromas from way earlier times! Hoppes #9, and blue blazer fuel.

My recaller says that it was Francisco green can ("Power Mist") and not Blue Blazer that smelled good. When I was flying CL speed in the mid-1960's, I used as much as 8% oil of merbane, which I must admit was opressive, but the more I used, the faster it ran. It did other things that weren't so good...it made the engine tend to stay in a 4-stroke and slow to "clear it's throat".

I found out that a lot less Amyl Acetate (1%) would do the same thing...which was retard ignition...because I ran 5% Propylene Oxide with some various amounts of alcohol. The AA ran as fast, but without the negatives. In George's article on engines in Aero Modeller Annual ('67?), he said that using PO and Alky together was a no-no, but with the NB or AA, it worked fine. Over about 60% nitro is really difficult to get to light up. I always used at least 65% but never more than 75%. Using K&B Speed Fuel for a standard, my fuel was +800 rpm on 65%.

Later, I read that K&B speed fuel was 60% nitro, and at least at first was some sort of soybean oil...which I wouldn't swear to, but would happily swear at. I always used straight Ucon oil, but which one is unknown. I got it from Dow's Hobby at University Village in Seattle. Dow's got it by the drum for the R/C boat guys, and I think most of the speed fliers around the Seattle/Tacoma area used the same stuff from Dow's. 

After I retired from speed flying, I gave some leftovers to Mark Sexton to use in his TeeDee .049/Starduster 350 for the BMA (Boeing Management Association) scholorship contest. One of his competitors had a BabeBee/CG Blazer and the poor kid was impressed with the smell and rpm. Mark let the boy try it in his BabeBee, which immediately barfed its rod or crank. I felt bad about that for a few minutes...  Steve

[Steve Lotz]

I don't know about but Power Mist but Blue Blazer definitely had that distinctive odor.

[Steve Helmick]

I don't know about but Power Mist but Blue Blazer definitely had that distinctive odor.

Ok, but Dad often used Power Mist, which didn't match with my budget, so I burned lots of Blue Blazer. I never noticed the smell of NB in Blue Blazer...maybe mine was defective, or perhaps they didn't always remember to put it in. That was in the late 1950's.  Steve

[Reptoid]

Ok, but Dad often used Power Mist, which didn't match with my budget, so I burned lots of Blue Blazer. I never noticed the smell of NB in Blue Blazer...maybe mine was defective, or perhaps they didn't always remember to put it in. That was in the late 1950's.  Steve

You're right; Blue blazer smelled like weird perfume (I kinda liked the smell) It wasn't Nitrobenzene. Nitrobenzine smells like shoe polish. I don't think it was ever an ingredient in commercial fuel. Racing and speed flyers used it or Amyl Nitrate (banana oil) to help castor mix with high nitro fuels. Not really a "Power" adder because it makes less power than Nitromethane. Propylene Oxide was used in some commercial fuels and was used in very high Nitro Percentage fuels as an ignitor because there wasn't enough (or any) methanol to help light the nitro. Propylene Oxide does add power but makes tuning far more critical.
     As for Lubricin N-1. I have posted the characteristics on here before but couldn't find a link. N-1 is a derivative of the castor bean refining process. It's sole purpose in fuel is to retard the molecular elongation process of castor under extreme heat. In simpler terms, it delays the thickening and congealing of castor at high temps thus acting as a detergent avoiding some of the gum and carbon when running high percentages of castor. It is useful in percentages of 1-2%. If you add more than that you run the risk of cancelling the main benefit of using castor; protection from lean, overheating runs. The use of N-1 has almost disappeared now that synthetics are used in much greater percentages for general modeling use. Lubricin does Nothing if added to an all synthetic fuel. It is NOT a good lubricant by itself. Keep in mind; castor and N-1 are both vegetable derived lubricants and can go "bad" from careless storage. Rancid or contaminated castor or Lubricin can cause white flakes in the oil or fuel mix. Lubricin and castor that are pure will not cause it.

[Lauri Malila]

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