Shaking off Winter..Practicing & Evaluation of Pattern

[Shug Emery]

Winter is still lurking here in Minnesota but today was sunny-ish and not too windy so off to a local stealth park where I can get in some electric flights to start getting back on my in-the-works stunt pattern.
Always feels different live in the moment in the circle and looks so different to look at the video.
Believe me....I see my errors and that is going to help me get my shapes and intersections, bottoms, 45s, 90s and all that that is Stunt refined or at least more polished.
I hope.
I dream.
Our club still does not have a full-time flying site and not sure when the current one is available to us. So the electrics allow me to get out and get started without drawing a lot of attention to myself.
Though I can't wait to fire up the ICs)))))
Why not love both? IC and electric.
I like my Stunt like I like my....well, you know where I am going.
Sure was so fun to be out there flying today. Just me. And my planes.
Shug

[wwwarbird]

 Looks like the P-40 is flying well Shug, it's a real good design. With some more handle time the Polk City gang better look out. Keep'er in one piece!

[Shug Emery]

Looks like the P-40 is flying well Shug, it's a real good design. With some more handle time the Polk City gang better look out. Keep'er in one piece!

It is a real good design. Flies pretty straight and true. I made new longer landing gear for grass and prop clearance. The Biased Hard Point handle is doing it for me. Seems to give me a wee bit of something. Time will tell. Thanks Wayne.

[john e. holliday]

The plane looks fine, you just need more time on it.   Some of the intersections left a lot to be desired.  But, right now you have me beat on the pattern.  Just don't burn out on us.

[Pat Chewning]

What kind of handle is that in the picture, and what do you like/dislike about it?  I'm looking at trying some different handles this year.

[Chris Fretz]

Do they frown on you flying with glow engines at the park?

[Chris Fretz]

What kind of handle is that in the picture, and what do you like/dislike about it?  I'm looking at trying some different handles this year.

I'll pass on what I learned today, its a Biased Hard Point handle.

[Shug Emery]

The plane looks fine, you just need more time on it.   Some of the intersections left a lot to be desired.  But, right now you have me beat on the pattern.  Just don't burn out on us.

Thus....the practice. I judge myself harder than any of you will.

What kind of handle is that in the picture, and what do you like/dislike about it?  I'm looking at trying some different handles this year.

It is a Tom Morris Biased Hard Point. Just got it so still feeling it in. So far....liking it. A lot.

Do they frown on you flying with glow engines at the park?

I think they would. There are homes just across the street. Just quieter and it is the noise that seems to get us run out of places.

[Larry Renger]

If you can get into it, judging competition events did more for my scores than any amount of practice. As one expert told me "When you get the sizes, shapes, intersections and bottoms, you will have something".   

At that time, I really did not understand all that he was getting at, but after seeing a couple of Kieth Trostle Judging Clinics, it all became way more clear. Watching beginners, through experts make mistakes, does even more for my understanding. Now the problem is to make my hand do what my brain says it should. I can visualize the space points I need to go around, but the hands just aren't that coordinated or quick. 

With your coordination and practice, it should go a lot faster. 

Any new juggling videos? How about 3 running Fox .35s?  Can you get them to do a 2/4 break as they get tossed up? Beware the Fox Burp as they go over the top, depending on which way you rotate them. 

[RknRusty]

Glad to see you're gettn' back on your game, Shug. Sector 7 is looking pretty good for early Spring.
Rusty

[Steve Thompson]

I really enjoyed your Christmas video.  From that I would guess:

"I like my Stunt like I like my...."

BBQ?

Keep up the good work and thank you for being an entertainer extraordinaire.

[RandySmith]

It is a real good design. Flies pretty straight and true. I made new longer landing gear for grass and prop clearance. The Biased Hard Point handle is doing it for me. Seems to give me a wee bit of something. Time will tell. Thanks Wayne.

Shug
you should get AWAY from the biased handle  ASAP, you will be doing yourself a huge favor, you can never get the same feel with that setup, get a handle that does not have that extreme  tilt in the hand hold, it will cause major problems when flying in the winds and the  up and down "load" changes, not equal and not for the good
there is a really long thread here where much detail goes into explaining, worth searching and reading

Randy

[Mike Haverly]

When I learned to drive it was in a 1952 Packard, and later, a Studebaker.  Beside being large, clunky cars they had king pins and drag link steering.  Later I had a Volkswagen with albeit crude by today's standard, rack and pinion steering.  The difference of course, was staggering.

I too was using a biased cable handle when I started flying again in the early 2000's.  When Ted introduced his "hard point" handle kit, I bought a couple.  I never looked back.  I think the comparison is accurate.

[Shug Emery]

If you can get into it, judging competition events did more for my scores than any amount of practice. As one expert told me "When you get the sizes, shapes, intersections and bottoms, you will have something".  

At that time, I really did not understand all that he was getting at, but after seeing a couple of Kieth Trostle Judging Clinics, it all became way more clear. Watching beginners, through experts make mistakes, does even more for my understanding. Now the problem is to make my hand do what my brain says it should. I can visualize the space points I need to go around, but the hands just aren't that coordinated or quick.  

With your coordination and practice, it should go a lot faster.  

Any new juggling videos? How about 3 running Fox .35s?  Can you get them to do a 2/4 break as they get tossed up? Beware the Fox Burp as they go over the top, depending on which way you rotate them.  

And there you go.......another way to look at improving the pattern. I'll log that one for future.

Glad to see you're gettn' back on your game, Shug. Sector 7 is looking pretty good for early Spring.
Rusty

Trying just not to lose the little I got! Fun to be back out there.

[Shug Emery]

I really enjoyed your Christmas video.  From that I would guess:

"I like my Stunt like I like my...."

BBQ?

Keep up the good work and thank you for being an entertainer extraordinaire.

Thankee Steve

[Shug Emery]

Shug
you should get AWAY from the biased handle  ASAP, you will be doing yourself a huge favor, you can never get the same feel with that setup, get a handle that does not have that extreme  tilt in the hand hold, it will cause major problems when flying in the winds and the  up and down "load" changes, not equal and not for the good
there is a really long thread here where much detail goes into explaining, worth searching and reading

Randy

When I learned to drive it was in a 1952 Packard, and later, a Studebaker.  Beside being large, clunky cars they had king pins and drag link steering.  Later I had a Volkswagen with albeit crude by today's standard, rack and pinion steering.  The difference of course, was staggering.

I too was using a biased cable handle when I started flying again in the early 2000's.  When Ted introduced his "hard point" handle kit, I bought a couple.  I never looked back.  I think the comparison is accurate.

I been using non-biased hard point mainly for the last couple seasons. How will I know if I don't try it and have it in MY hand awhile?  Part of the fun of learning I reckon.
I appreciate everyones opinions and listen to them but I need to feel and see for myself. So by this years flying season's end......I should know what I want to use. But right now....I'm searching and experimenting. Gotta feel it for myself.
Thanks ya'll.

[Tim Wescott]

If you can get into it, judging competition events did more for my scores than any amount of practice. As one expert told me "When you get the sizes, shapes, intersections and bottoms, you will have something".   

Ditto.  You learn what to look for in other people's flights, and that teaches you what to look for in your own.  It doesn't teach you HOW to do it, but it sure lets you watch your own flying and know how well you're doing.

[Terrence Durrill]

   Hey Shug,
            Thanks for another interesting video.  It never hurts to start practicing as early as the weather will allow.  By the way, did the FAA field agent drop by the flying site to check out your registration.  I hear they can get really testy with their threats of $250,000 fines and who knows how many years in a federal prison cell for flying our C/L "not models, but AIRCRAFT" as they like to say, in their airspace"!    

[RandySmith]

 " I been using non-biased hard point mainly for the last couple seasons. How will I know if I don't try it and have it in MY hand awhile?  Part of the fun of learning I reckon.
I appreciate everyones opinions and listen to them but I need to feel and see for myself. So by this years flying season's end......I should know what I want to use. But right now....I'm searching and experimenting. Gotta feel it for myself.
Thanks ya'll. "

Hi Shug
You are perfectly welcome to fly whatever you want, but its not about feeling it for yourself...and maybe physics will NOt apply to me, it will and you will have the problems I talked about and more, the "overhang" in that handle is differant up to down, you will have much different pressures on each at times, when the wind loads up the plane, that is why many CRASH using that type of  way different bias on the up and down part leg of the handle. At times if you get caught in hard winds you will NOT be able to put enough muscle in the handle to make the ship turn..and even worse than that, the feels will change on up and down, and the change will be NOT the same, it will be different up vs. down, and much harder to turn on the down line, it is  NOT a point that it may not effect you.. it will, physics will apply to you also.
just for your info,   fly what you please, but  i felt you need to know this info, what you do with it is you call, others have experienced exactly what i am talking about, some have crashed airplane.. solely..  because of using that type of handle, and NO other reason.

Good luck  my friend

Randy

[Shug Emery]

  Hey Shug,
            Thanks for another interesting video.  It never hurts to start practicing as early as the weather will allow.  By the way, did the FAA field agent drop by the flying site to check out your registration.  I hear they can get really testy with their threats of $250,000 fines and who knows how many years in a federal prison cell for flying our C/L "not models, but AIRCRAFT" as they like to say, in their airspace"!    

Well.....I paid the $5, so I am all good with the FFA. Protection fee I reckon.

" I been using non-biased hard point mainly for the last couple seasons. How will I know if I don't try it and have it in MY hand awhile?  Part of the fun of learning I reckon.
I appreciate everyones opinions and listen to them but I need to feel and see for myself. So by this years flying season's end......I should know what I want to use. But right now....I'm searching and experimenting. Gotta feel it for myself.
Thanks ya'll. "

Hi Shug
You are perfectly welcome to fly whatever you want, but its not about feeling it for yourself...and maybe physics will NOt apply to me, it will and you will have the problems I talked about and more, the "overhang" in that handle is differant up to down, you will have much different pressures on each at times, when the wind loads up the plane, that is why many CRASH using that type of  way different bias on the up and down part leg of the handle. At times if you get caught in hard winds you will NOT be able to put enough muscle in the handle to make the ship turn..and even worse than that, the feels will change on up and down, and the change will be NOT the same, it will be different up vs. down, and much harder to turn on the down line, it is  NOT a point that it may not effect you.. it will, physics will apply to you also.
just for your info,   fly what you please, but  i felt you need to know this info, what you do with it is you call, others have experienced exactly what i am talking about, some have crashed airplane.. solely..  because of using that type of handle, and NO other reason.

Good luck  my friend

Randy

Yes. I read you loud and clear. But....I am still going to try it for a while. Reason being, I've crashed with non-biased handles...hard point and cabeled...many times in the last two years learning. Not the end of the world and then my hand/wrist/arm can let me know that the biased is mighty bad, when and if that happens.
I appreciate everyones concern but I really can't know for certain in my deepest soul until I try it for a while. Just my way. No disrespect meant to any of you telling that I should not try it.
Ya'll can tell me "Told you so" in due time.
Shug the Stubborn and Hard-Headed and Hard-Pointed.

[john e. holliday]

Shug, as I was told by my peers, if you don't try it, how will you know.   

[Brett Buck]

Shug, as I was told by my peers, if you don't try it, how will you know.   

   AY YI YI! You know because you have multiple national champions telling you not to do it!  But no skin off my nose, if someone is absolutely dedicated to learning something the hard way, then go to it.

    Brett

[Shug Emery]

The Biased handle. It has been burned. I spat on on it. Cursed it. Called it names. Excreted bodily fluids on it. Told it that it had no friends.

Be gone biased handle. Those have spoken and banished ye from said flight box and lines. Nevermore are you to be held. Never. Ever.

Shug-Speare

Sorta wished I had never spoken of it.

[john e. holliday]

If biased handles were so bad, why were they made?

[Chris Fretz]

If biased handles were so bad, why were they made?

I was thinking the same thing, or why are they still being made?

[Shug Emery]

If biased handles were so bad, why were they made?

I was thinking the same thing, or why are they still being made?

Maybe it is a handle conspiracy ploy)))))))   
I get what all the experts are trying to convey and know that they mean nothing but good.

[Robert Dible]

My next handle, except too much bias, weight, and shiny steel thing with teeth.

[Tim Wescott]

If biased handles were so bad, why were they made?

I was thinking the same thing, or why are they still being made?

Because people still believe in them.  But "people" in the stunt community believe in a lot of different things, and those things range from spot on, go through counterproductive, and straight to just plain wrong.  I tend to look at what folks who fly really well do, and at least try out what they're doing.

[Mike Haverly]

The OP mentioned evaluation of the pattern and, safe to assume, improvement on same.  The firestorm that followed was to point out the fact that improvement will be difficult with that piece of equipment.  It’s been covered and pretty much beat to death, again.

If a person is only interested in sport flying with no real interest in competition, the do what you want.  The bias of the down control will probably make it easier to fly level.  If you put cables on it instead of a hard connection it will mask some serious trim issues, again making it easier to fly.

I think improvement is the key word here.  Listening to world class competitors is always best, even though some may swear by a biased handle.

Every year at NATS there is a questionnaire for the competitors to list their equipment.  Among others things it asks about line length and type.  It didn’t have a spot for the type of handle.  Maybe it should!

[Shug Emery]

From Me....Shug.....the OP.
I have pondered what I have read from real experts on here and my other thread and take it to heart. It has me thinking more about arm/wrist position and movements. I've been flying very straight armed as I progress through my last two seasons back at Stunt. Seems that was recommended but a lot of folks have helped me by telling me a lot of stuff.
Now my focus will be to go back to the un-biased hard point and focus on my arm bent a bit and in center of body.
I just hooked all my handles up in the backyard just to feel them in the bent-elbow center body area. So I think I saw some things. I'll know next time I get to fly.
As this is my third season back....my focus maybe needs to be in these very important areas. Not as much info on handles and body/arm position as I thought there might be.

[Tim Wescott]

I've been flying very straight armed as I progress through my last two seasons back at Stunt. Seems that was recommended but a lot of folks have helped me by telling me a lot of stuff.

For the absolute rank beginner, particularly one who doesn't have a teacher who's willing to get into the circle with them and do takeoffs and landings, straight-arming the control handle and keeping your wrist stiff is how you avoid over-controlling and crashing long enough to learn to fly.

That leaves you with a bad habit -- but you can fly.  Then, once you can fly, we go and tell you to hold your arm bent.  Here's some videos that I've dug up on YouTube.  I just thought of some names I knew and typed them in along with "control line".  Note that you're aiming for a slightly bent elbow and a handle that's straight up and down in level flight.

[Curt D Contrata]

The Biased handle. It has been burned. I spat on on it. Cursed it. Called it names. Excreted bodily fluids on it. Told it that it had no friends.

Be gone biased handle. Those have spoken and banished ye from said flight box and lines. Nevermore are you to be held. Never. Ever.

Shug-Speare

Sorta wished I had never spoken of it.

Lol, awesome post.

Curt

[Steve Thompson]

The evil biased handle is GREAT if you are prone to trying to fly after grabbing the handle up-side down!

[wwwarbird]

 I think many of these opinions are biased.

[RknRusty]

This conversation has me inspired to try the hard point. I have one of the popular type, made for the bent wire clips, but since I've grown to like the fit of my Tom Morris cable handles, I'll convert one with the eye bolts. I may wait until after the first contest in late April and then practice with it for the Joe Nall Stunt contest a week later. Lately I've begun to consistently conquer my bumpy bottoms with the cable handle, so the HP might make that worse at first, being more sensitive. But if I have to work through that again, maybe it will help me improve my skills.
Rusty

[Shug Emery]

For the absolute rank beginner, particularly one who doesn't have a teacher who's willing to get into the circle with them and do takeoffs and landings, straight-arming the control handle and keeping your wrist stiff is how you avoid over-controlling and crashing long enough to learn to fly.

That leaves you with a bad habit -- but you can fly.  Then, once you can fly, we go and tell you to hold your arm bent.  Here's some videos that I've dug up on YouTube.  I just thought of some names I knew and typed them in along with "control line".  Note that you're aiming for a slightly bent elbow and a handle that's straight up and down in level flight.

Good stuff to watch. In regards to all the talk about keeping the handle straight up and down....noticed Ted F. has his handle almost sideways on the inverted part of reverse wing-over. I just think there are No Absolutes in anything.
Always insightful watching the videos on Champs.

[Shug Emery]

Lol, awesome post.

Curt

I felt inspired......

The evil biased handle is GREAT if you are prone to trying to fly after grabbing the handle up-side down!

That proneness has not effected me yet. The saftey thong dictates the ends.

I think many of these opinions are biased.

This conversation has me inspired to try the hard point. I have one of the popular type, made for the bent wire clips, but since I've grown to like the fit of my Tom Morris cable handles, I'll convert one with the eye bolts. I may wait until after the first contest in late April and then practice with it for the Joe Nall Stunt contest a week later. Lately I've begun to consistently conquer my bumpy bottoms with the cable handle, so the HP might make that worse at first, being more sensitive. But if I have to work through that again, maybe it will help me improve my skills.
Rusty

Let me know what you think after giving it a go.

[Tim Wescott]

Good stuff to watch. In regards to all the talk about keeping the handle straight up and down....noticed Ted F. has his handle almost sideways on the inverted part of reverse wing-over. I just think there are No Absolutes in anything.
Always insightful watching the videos on Champs.

I think it's a bad habit, but one that is easier to overcome than others.  Clearly it's not going to keep someone out of the top 5 at the Nationals -- but of the Really Good pilots who I've seen, there's more that hold their hand vertical while flying inverted than there are who hold them horizontal.

[RknRusty]

... of the Really Good pilots who I've seen, there's more that hold their hand vertical while flying inverted than there are who hold them horizontal.

This must be one of the horizontal ones. Throughout the pattern I vary from horizontal to 45 degrees.
I doubt if his is assbackwards like mine though.