Several future desires for kits or ARF planes

[Fredvon4]

First off my focus as a youth was combat so when I came back to airplane modeling for some reason I started with RC and quickly got bored....mostly because I was conned into a Foam ARF electric that flew very well and most of the folks leading and teaching me were full on into electric or Gas and the Gas engines were the converted weed eater size pulling $6000 airplanes.... I missed the tinkering with a glow engine and the pain of alcohol/castor in a finger cut

searching I found zero Control line fellows in a three county area near me... I have since met Sean McEntee and from these sites know there are many hidden close or not too terribly far away...Bob Mears though is a 5 hour drive, and several are still working chaps that I don't really want to pester too much

Bottom line is I am re-learning and spent the last four years reading just about every topic and thread on several web sites.

I chose several planes to build this year that if I screwed up the construction and finish would net be a dear loss except for time, materials, and the learning experience

Phil Cartier, Jeff Dawson, and a few other sources kept me well supplied with foam combat planes that were/are near indestructible so my flying got some what competent

Got the nostalgia combat bug and have a LOT of plans and kits...but also desired to relive the time with my Dad and a McCoy powered RingMaster so had Mike Griffen build me a ARF one that I promptly took apart and refinished more to my liking...BUT all in all I left the wing alone as he did a better job on it than I could have

As spring approaches I am going to ask Sean to help me maiden, trim, and get me used to flying a stunt plane ( no desire to compete at any level)

OK the point of this

There are literally hundreds of current laser kits but missing are a few I very much desire... Sig Primary Force, the mid sized  .15 powered Stunt Rocket,

I see Eric Rule has rib sets for the Primary force but wonder if all the ARFs are gone.  I loved Shug's video of getting and putting together the ARF PF

So is there any hope that the PF ARF still exists in someones stash? Or do I need to bite the bullet and get the plans and scratch one out

What started this was Larry (Captain Black Hawk) more or less pulling the plug on Black Hawk models, as he should, so he can enjoy the final years with his family and enjoy a less stressful life

But that means it is a good bet the Canadian deal will die or at least not resurrect some kits like the mid sized Stunt Rocket that I love

OK rambled too much

Thoughts gentle sirs?

[Tim Wescott]

So,my suggestion is get some kits and build them. Far more satisfaction and you will know the controls are right.

Or if you're really picky, scratch-build.

[Fredvon4]

I hear you Tim and thanks Ty

Spent a bit of time getting good plans for several like Howard Rush Nemesis II ( and about two dozen other old skool planes) and fortunately we have the cottage industry guys; example pat Johnston who laser cut me a nemesis II short kit that is a true work of art in wood selection and very accurate parts...so not a true scratch build but all the hard parts are here waiting on me to get much more competent at the various assembly and covering techniques

My interest in the PF ARF is from here on SH, many of you said this was a very well done ARF and the one Shug paraded was a beauty in my mind

Sort of hoping one of the guys bailing out the garage clutter would chime in and make a fair profit offering me one.... grin

And perhaps some one knows more about the Mid sized stunt Rocket... a stunning plane to see fly... Rusty Knowelton knows the one I am remembering and may post the photos of it

[Serge_Krauss]

Mike Pratt has posted on the Primary Force. You might ask him too. From a search:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/mikey's-models/primary-force-short-kit/

http://stunthanger.com/smf/search2/

SK

[Fredvon4]

Thank you Serge

I had seen Mikey Pratt's new PF XL but never went to his vendors page...where I now see he does have the normal sized PF as a short kit

probably the way I will go

[Fredvon4]

OK Mike has delivered a PF short kit to me

Just ordered a lot of other necessary items

In the instructions the engine bearers as designed fit Fox 35 and OS 25 spacing...cool so far but my Fox ( do not desire to use) is 6 oz no muffler and both my OS FX 25s are 8oz  sans muffler.....Note ball bearing engines

Mike sez the Fox 35 and OS 35 LA or FP fit and balance as designed....logic tell me that at 40 inches long I should just build the tail a tad heavy....grams not Ozs and all should be right on track

Opinions

[Tim Wescott]

An OS FX 25 should be able to pull the thing around with authority -- possibly too much.  So yes, just build the tail a bit heavy, or put some weight back there when you're done.

[Steve Thornton]

Fred this link may be of some help. He also has a calculator for magnification power to increase the size of plans.  Let me know if it helps.
Steve
http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/magazines/air-trails/stunt-rocket-july-1951-air-trails.htm

[Dennis Moritz]

Probably better off with an LA25. If you can find one. Lighter. The ARF was lightly constructed in the nose. Probably the kit is better. Dunno. Are the doublers  1/8". If 1/16 I'd definitely opt for an LA25. No flaps. Light construction. The ball bearing FX is a bear and heavy. Foxes tend to vibrate. Better off with 1/8. You can always replace doublers if needed.

I flew my ARF PF with an fp40. The lightly built front end needed improvised  aluminum pads under engine mounts and an aluminum rectangle on the backside to get an even engine run. Rectangle was large enough for engine bolts to cintch up in corners. Corners were drilled. Bolts went through. Fues sandwiched between. Bolts were tightened ever other flight. La25 should pull the light plane without flaps. Avoiding the hassle.




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[Dennis Moritz]

ARFs are ridiculously cheap. Considering purchase of parts and finishing materials  alone would exceed cost of ARF. The new Brodak ARFs P40 and Ringmaster are much better than the older runs. P40 an amazing very competitive Stunter.  Seal the coverng seams with dope. Or get the ARC. Ringmaster ARC with Fox 35 should work. Our club is having good luck with these.


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[Fredvon4]

Steve

Thank you sir I was able to copy and save all that great information and the scale calculator just fine

I think BH models Larry Rice had a kit for 15 sized version but discontinued now...there is a 1/2a kit still out there but it is a profile version

[john e. holliday]

Hey Fredvon4, never try to build tail heavy.  In fact always strive for lightness and straightness.  My short kit PF I built years ago flies great with LA 25 and stock muffler on uniflow tank and 10-4 prop.  Lines .015 X 60 center plane to center of handle.

[Steve Thornton]

Steve

Thank you sir I was able to copy and save all that great information and the scale calculator just fine

I think BH models Larry Rice had a kit for 15 sized version but discontinued now...there is a 1/2a kit still out there but it is a profile version

Fred I have a NIB 1/2A kit of the SR that I plan to build with a TD.  I agree that even the profile is a great looking plane in flight...I remember watching one when I was a kid and thinking planes should all look like that!
Steve

[Fredvon4]

Hey Doc, I agree with your sound advice about deliberately building tail heavy

What I as trying to say is the plane was designed for a Fox 35 or OS LA 25 both about same mount footprint and 6 oz+/- weight

I have a OS FX (ball bearing) engine that is 2 Oz+/- heavier. 

My thought was ( I used to do real world weight and balance using scales calculating moments and arm on helicopters) to offset the known potential nose heavy final model I may deliberately increase the tail weight by a few grams. I could do this structurally with a 10-14 pound piece of elevator balsa instead of the 4~6 pound pieces in the kit. Or several added coats of Nitrate on silkspan

Simply trying to avoid later adding lead

Of course some of this could be pre calculated but the real world tell me to just wait until it is mostly done, mock it up with everything including controls attached, and see if it really comes out nose heavy

[MikeyPratt]

Hey Doc, I agree with your sound advice about deliberately building tail heavy

What I as trying to say is the plane was designed for a Fox 35 or OS LA 25 both about same mount footprint and 6 oz+/- weight

I have a OS FX (ball bearing) engine that is 2 Oz+/- heavier. 

My thought was ( I used to do real world weight and balance using scales calculating moments and arm on helicopters) to offset the known potential nose heavy final model I may deliberately increase the tail weight by a few grams. I could do this structurally with a 10-14 pound piece of elevator balsa instead of the 4~6 pound pieces in the kit. Or several added coats of Nitrate on silkspan

Simply trying to avoid later adding lead

Of course some of this could be pre calculated but the real world tell me to just wait until it is mostly done, mock it up with everything including controls attached, and see if it really comes out nose heavy

Hi Fred,
I don't think its much to worry about at all.  There are so many different ways to help balance any model.
As example:  Use a tongue muffler, a light weight spinner, heavier tail wheel, add a stooge release on the tail wheel wire, and so on.  You could even add more paint to the aft end of the fuse.

When the model is finished, balance it as noted.  The P-Force can balanced further back about 1/8" to 1/4" with out any problem if you adjust handle spacing.

Don't overthink it and just have fun building and flying the Primary Force.

Later,
Mikey

[Sean McEntee]

Hey Fred,

     Well talk ARFs when I get back.  Ill be back on the 28th and that following Friday off in which to get your ringmaster in the air.



Cheers,
Sean

[Dane Martin]

Hey Doc, I agree with your sound advice about deliberately building tail heavy

What I as trying to say is the plane was designed for a Fox 35 or OS LA 25 both about same mount footprint and 6 oz+/- weight

I have a OS FX (ball bearing) engine that is 2 Oz+/- heavier. 

My thought was ( I used to do real world weight and balance using scales calculating moments and arm on helicopters) to offset the known potential nose heavy final model I may deliberately increase the tail weight by a few grams. I could do this structurally with a 10-14 pound piece of elevator balsa instead of the 4~6 pound pieces in the kit. Or several added coats of Nitrate on silkspan

Simply trying to avoid later adding lead

Of course some of this could be pre calculated but the real world tell me to just wait until it is mostly done, mock it up with everything including controls attached, and see if it really comes out nose heavy

Fred, i also do the mock up trial every build. It gets me close enough to figure out stuff. Here's my twister. It showed me during the mock up what LG was acceptable. I often use making tape to hold parts to the fuse to help figure out positioning.