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Author Topic: Seeding  (Read 11206 times)

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #100 on: December 02, 2007, 11:39:44 AM »
The last time I was able to actually fly in the NATS, seeding was used.  I thought nothing of it.  It's the way it is.

Maybe it's because I was a coach at a pretty high level for 30 plus years and have become accustomed to playing the game as and where we had to play it.  Might be a wet field, might be below freezing, might be a heat index over 100, etc., you just have to prepare the best you can, perform the best you can, and let the chips fall.

When I return to flying at the NATS, I will not let seeding affect my decision to do so at all.  I do not see (nor have I ever seen) a problem with seeding.

I think that approach to competition will affect your placing a lot more than seeding will.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #101 on: December 02, 2007, 11:51:31 AM »
I think that it still leaves too much to those doing the seeding, especially if they chose to seed beyond the first 5-10....

It might be considered an "honorarium" if those finishing in the top 5 in Open were seeded......but there can be no scientific or even justifiable reason for seeding throughout the field.

I don't know if it can do any harm.  I doubt it.  Maybe seeding could be done voluntarily: if you want to be seeded, you get seeded. 

I ran the program again to see the effect at the break between the last seed and the best nonseed.  There was no jump in fortune between the two. I posted results on SSW.  For the 2008 Nats four-group format with 12 seeds, seeding helps both the (seeded) 12th-best and (unseeded) 13th-best flyers a little, and hurts both the 20th-best and 21st-best flyers a wee bit. 
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2007, 01:13:04 PM »
Howard,

I pulled this quote (attributed to you by the author of the post, Dick Fowler) that, as I understand it, describes the underlying assumptions of your seeding analysis.  If Dick's quote is incorrect (or if I misinterpreted its source), forget all that follows.

The quote: "I did a simulation. I assumed 40 contestants. They were assigned at random to four circles in the 2003 Nats Wednesday-Thursday format. I ranked the contestants and assumed that a higher-ranked contestant would always place higher than a lower-ranked contestant. I did 10,000 runs with and without seeding the top eight to see how many times the 20th-ranked contestant would make the top 20 and how many times the 21st-ranked contestant would make the top 20. Here is the upchuck:"

My concerns are based on the sentence that states: "I ranked the contestants and assumed that a higher ranked contestant would always place higher than a lower ranked contestant".

In my opinion, that assumption is so completely foreign to what we are doing as to render the results of the simulation meaningless.  My experience tells me that our normal spread of nats competitors is very competitive within several sub groupings with increasing overlap of the groups as you descend the historical record of achievment. 

To wit: We probably have between two and five or so competitors that will "always" place better than at least 95% of the total group.  (and, just to short circuit Brad, this is an historical assumption, not a prediction) Within that tiny group, any could (and has) win an event in which they are all entered.  Thus, an assumption that David will always beat Paul who will always beat Billy who will always beat Brett is fundamentally flawed.

Just below that historical performance level you've got perhaps eight to a dozen excellent flyers who historically will usually (but not always) get beaten by the first group but who also will, historically, have beaten about 80% of all the other flyers not in that highest group. (Please note that these % are WAGs based solely on my memory of past performances)

Just below that is a large cohort of very good flyers with track records that indicate they will "likely" beat most of the unknown cohort that might show up in a given year.  They might also put in a particularly strong performance one year and beat out one or many in the second group (but very unlikely to do so to the first group)

The final group will be those that are, for the most part, unknown on a comparative historical basis.  Flyers about which little is known.  The might be very, very good; very, very bad or fit neatly into a predictable peak of the Bell Curve.  That this group cannot be easily catalouged as "also rans" you need go no farther than Doug Moon, Rich Oliver and Konstantin Bajaikin (Sp?).  Certainly unseeded prior to the start of their respective Nats, all three of these guys proved themselves competitive with those seeded at the very highest level.  They did so at their very first attempt flying in Open at the Nats (I may be in error with Konstantin re "first Open".  However, the Rich and Doug instances make my point; even this lowest cohort can't be catalogued as "A will always beat B").

My point in all the above is that your initial assumptions simply don't match the reality of the group you're attempting to simulate.  By " ... ranking the contestants ..." and "... assuming a higher ranked contestant would always place higher than a lower ranked contestant ... " you've essentially determined the outcome before the simulation even begins.

The reality is more like I've described above where within narrow and overlapping groups of flyers a wide ranging number of outcomes between any two is quite likely.  More likely as you descend farther down the historically more predictable outcomes.  In other words, the top rankings are very impervious to any effects of seeding or not while the intermediate ranks are very susceptible to variations that might transpire.  This is true simply because it is not a valid assumption that flyer A will always score higher than flyer B.

I believe this is a good description of why it is valid and meaningful to seed (based on historical performance to the greatest degree possible) as many flyers as possible down to the point that the number to be selected based on performance will encompass those seeded to the extent possible.  Doing so will provide the greatest possible "appearance" of balanced talent in the circles assuming that the administrators have roughly the same knowledge of historical performance as do the competitors who will evaluate the seeds.

If this is incorrect Howard, tell me what I'm missing.

Thanks

Ted

Offline phil c

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2007, 03:14:20 PM »
I think Ted has hit the nail on the head on this one.  Not seeding, and going ahead with the contest when 5-10 of the historically very best flyers all land in the same qualifying circle, is exceeding unfair to them.  Seeding a dozen or so of the historically best flyers, especially using some sort of points system based on recent history suggested elsewhere, is a much better proposition.  The seeding may switch the finish order of a few flyers around the 20th spot for qualifying, but that at best is unfair to one flyer, not 4 or 5, or even possibly more.
phil Cartier

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2007, 04:51:55 PM »
I think Ted has hit the nail on the head on this one.  Not seeding, and going ahead with the contest when 5-10 of the historically very best flyers all land in the same qualifying circle, is exceeding unfair to them.  Seeding a dozen or so of the historically best flyers, especially using some sort of points system based on recent history suggested elsewhere, is a much better proposition.  The seeding may switch the finish order of a few flyers around the 20th spot for qualifying, but that at best is unfair to one flyer, not 4 or 5, or even possibly more.

Balderdash.  Ted is saying, using red letters as the hammer with which to hit the nail, that my analysis is wrong because, although the contestant assignment to groups is random, I assumed deterministic contestant placing.  I take it that he thinks that randomizing the placing sequence enhances the effect of seeding.

There is the case of good flyers piling up on one circle.  Intuitively, you'd think that the effect would be greatest to the 20th-best flyer.  Seeding actually hurts his chances, although very slightly.  Seeding does have an effect a little farther up the ladder.  It helps ensure that a flyer at my level (10th to 13th) makes the top 20, but, curiously, it doesn't seem to matter whether or not such a flyer is among the seeds.

So let's see some math.  I know you got it in you.
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #105 on: December 03, 2007, 05:50:12 AM »
Hi Howard.  After thinking about your analysis, I think your assumption would be valid for your method. I considered that the ranking would have to be based on some sort of statistical analysis. This ranking then servers to  "predict"  the relative placement of the contestant at the end of the contest. So if a contestant is ranked in the 50th percentile then statistically (assuming a large enough number of data points were used) it would be expected that within some reasonable range, that guy would land on his midpoint most of the time with a bellcurve distribution around his respective finishing position. So if all participants have sufficient data points (contest finishes, NATS placement,competition against the field, etc.) then it should be reasonable to statistically predict the final postion of each contestant... they finish where they are ranked with a normal distribution about their own "ranked" position. I think your analysis  shows this... I don't  know if it really speaks to seeding though.

So in my mind, this analysis works better if all the contestants have  flown against each other and the more times they fly against the field the better the "ranking becomes". Ranking is based on the guys skill level against the field. If he hasn't flown against this group then the errors start to creep in.

Using random circle selection with good ranking would have the 20th guy finishing on average, 20th most of the time, but... statistically he will also finish 1st and also last sometimes with these finishes following the usual bell curve. As I see it, seeding causes a narrowing the curve and increasing the height of this curve. So  with seeding, the number 20 guy will now finish 20th a a much greater frequency than with random selection. Every split of the field increases the chances of random selection stacking some given circle to the point that the flyers ranked lower than the number chosen to advance (seems like five has been the magic number) will never finish according to their ranking.  I think all that happens is that the make up of a seeded circle more reasonably reflects the normal skill levels of the entire field even though it has been split. One circle is the ideal situation and the addition of more circles starts to introduce this error that random selection "can" create. I haven't modeled this... and even if I figure it out, I'm not really driven to do it! JMHO.
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Offline SteveMoon

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #106 on: December 03, 2007, 07:54:39 AM »
I think Paul's ideas for a mild revamping of the Nats are great. Of course,
it is entirely possible, and most likely probable that some tweaking will
be needed over the next couple of years, but I think this is a great
start. Attempting to eliminate even the *possible appearance* of *any
impropriety* is a positive step. I think having the contestants and judges
draw for their circle assignments and flying order each day is a great idea.

I also agree with Frank Williams' ideas for seeding the first round. It should be
a simple, mathematical, historical system that is easy to understand. It should
not be based on personal, subjective decisions.

Overall, I am excited about the changes to the Nats, and am really looking
forward to another pleasant summer week in Muncie, IN. Texas Roadhouse,
here we come!!

Later, Steve

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #107 on: December 03, 2007, 10:35:00 AM »
Balderdash.  Ted is saying, using red letters as the hammer with which to hit the nail, that my analysis is wrong because, although the contestant assignment to groups is random, I assumed deterministic contestant placing.  I take it that he thinks that randomizing the placing sequence enhances the effect of seeding.

There is the case of good flyers piling up on one circle.  Intuitively, you'd think that the effect would be greatest to the 20th-best flyer.  Seeding actually hurts his chances, although very slightly.  Seeding does have an effect a little farther up the ladder.  It helps ensure that a flyer at my level (10th to 13th) makes the top 20, but, curiously, it doesn't seem to matter whether or not such a flyer is among the seeds.

So let's see some math.  I know you got it in you.

No need, Howard.

You've stated (highlighted in my post for ease of sourcing) that one of the principles of your analysis is that you know going in who will beat who: A beats B who Beats C all the way through to poor Mr Z. 

I don't think you need much math to determine that A will always place in front of everybody and Z in front of nobody when you've stated as much entering the exercise. 

In the real world A doesn't always beat B and M might beat N as many times as N beats M and even Z will rarely but occasionally beat Y.

Why doesn't that reality have an impact (I hate to keep using the word) on the the validity of your results?

Just asking.  I don't know squat about the math involved, only the apparent disconnect in logic of the assumptions you've taken into the task.

Ted

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #108 on: December 03, 2007, 12:09:49 PM »
I don't know if it has an effect.  I suspect that a statistical whiz could show that randomness in performance and seeding effects are independent. With the Monte Carlo brute-force method, I think randomizing performance would fuzz up the outcome, making the variances larger, and obscuring the seeding effect more.  One could do the experiment by first randomly distributing guys among the four groups as I did previously, then assigning a probability distribution to each guy's placing, narrow at the top where Brett is and wide in the middle where I am, as you suggest, then resorting them for each trial. That's a bunch of work, though.   

One might do the same sort of exercise to see if the benefit in weather and judging uniformity brought by the four-group format warrants the increased tendency for good fliers to get bumped in tough circles.  We are assuming that seeding fixes the tough-circle problem, but maybe it doesn't.  That exercise would be a heck of a lot of work.
The Jive Combat Team
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #109 on: December 03, 2007, 12:15:39 PM »
Hi Howard.  After thinking about your analysis, I think your assumption would be valid for your method. I considered that the ranking would have to be based on some sort of statistical analysis. This ranking then servers to  "predict"  the relative placement of the contestant at the end of the contest. So if a contestant is ranked in the 50th percentile then statistically (assuming a large enough number of data points were used) it would be expected that within some reasonable range, that guy would land on his midpoint most of the time with a bellcurve distribution around his respective finishing position. So if all participants have sufficient data points (contest finishes, NATS placement,competition against the field, etc.) then it should be reasonable to statistically predict the final postion of each contestant... they finish where they are ranked with a normal distribution about their own "ranked" position. I think your analysis  shows this... I don't  know if it really speaks to seeding though.

So in my mind, this analysis works better if all the contestants have  flown against each other and the more times they fly against the field the better the "ranking becomes". Ranking is based on the guys skill level against the field. If he hasn't flown against this group then the errors start to creep in.

Using random circle selection with good ranking would have the 20th guy finishing on average, 20th most of the time, but... statistically he will also finish 1st and also last sometimes with these finishes following the usual bell curve. As I see it, seeding causes a narrowing the curve and increasing the height of this curve. So  with seeding, the number 20 guy will now finish 20th a a much greater frequency than with random selection. Every split of the field increases the chances of random selection stacking some given circle to the point that the flyers ranked lower than the number chosen to advance (seems like five has been the magic number) will never finish according to their ranking.  I think all that happens is that the make up of a seeded circle more reasonably reflects the normal skill levels of the entire field even though it has been split. One circle is the ideal situation and the addition of more circles starts to introduce this error that random selection "can" create. I haven't modeled this... and even if I figure it out, I'm not really driven to do it! JMHO.

The analysis I did may be a lot cruder than you give me credit for.  I'll send the program to anybody who's interested.  It's in Excel, with one macro tacked on. 
The Jive Combat Team
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Online Paul Walker

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #110 on: December 03, 2007, 01:12:01 PM »
Ted said:

  "You need no better example than Paul's decision to eliminate judge selection in response to the complaints of a small but vocal minority of individuals who don't even compete in the Nats on a regular basis. "

This appears to be the crux of the problem here. I didn't consider this because of the group you described, but for the judges. I have been working to get enough judges for the next NATs, and one of the common threads is that if I have NO chance to judge the finals, then I won't come. That led me to what criteria would be applied to selecting judges. This has been in my head for a number of years.  That being trying to define a criteria that I could plug into a computer so that it reviews the data, and then selects the best judges. I can't come up with that, and so far, no one else has either. The criteria I have heard are subjective.

Suppose that a certain judge (judge A) always judges flier A 3% higher on average than all the others.  Should that judge be eliminated if flier A makes the finals?  That's the difference between a 566 and a 550. Is this because the judge is biased? Or, is the judge seeing something in that fliers pattern that fits their perception of what a pattern should look like.  Part of the reason to have multiple judges is to get their different perspectives.  I'm not sure that 3% difference is enough to eliminate that judge. However, if that judge scores the flier 10% higher, 605 vs. 550, then that might be bias. Exactly where do you draw the line. In this case, there is a formula that could be derived and programmen into the computer that could point this out.

How about the judge that scores higher on some fliers and lower on others. These judges have been eliminated as well. The same criteria that I described above applies here as well. I suggest that the amount that difference is significant. Now, suppose that we up front tell the judges the mathematical  formulas in the computer that will "screen" them from the finals. Don't you think they would minimize their scoring ranges to keep from being eliminated. Is this a benefit to the fliers?  Many already complain of the narrow scoring range in the semi and final rounds now.

There are other reasons judges have not been allowed to judge the finals. Proximity to the flier is a frequent one. I know for a fact that there is a certain very qualified judge who was not allowed to judge the finals because this judge lived close to one of the contestants. This judge didn't fly with the finalist, this judge didn't even watch him fly much, other than judge him at local contests, yet this judge was not allowed to judge. Further, he was told that he wasn't judging because he didn't score close enough to the average norm. This wasn't the real reason. I know that Ted has brought this issue forward. Again, I think that if Ted (or anyone else) who is judging feels uncomfortable with this, they can opt out. I personally think that Ted would do his absolute best to be as objective as possible, and I certainly wouldn't question it even if I was flying against Brett or David while he was judging.  I fully believe that the judges are trying to do their absolute best. Period.

One factor that DOES affect this objectivity, is the heat and getting tired. I plan on instituting more breaks for the judges and for longer times as well. I want them as fresh as possible to allow them to do their best job.

The bottom line here is that I set about this path for the judges benefit. My plan will bring back existing qualified judges. It has already! Continuing on the path we have been on will lead us to not having any qualified judges left in the not to distant future.

Paul Walker

Online Paul Walker

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #111 on: December 03, 2007, 01:15:51 PM »
Ted said:
"Why doesn't that reality have an impact (I hate to keep using the word) "

That's OK, it's a good word!

Offline frank carlisle

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #112 on: December 03, 2007, 05:00:21 PM »
I've just finished reading this entire thread, which is no small feat. I haven't anything to add to the conversation. I am however very impressed with the depth and width of your discussion.
It's a good thing that there are people that care enough and are involved enough to go to such great lengths to work out the details in judging and seeding. Keep it up.
Frank Carlisle

Offline Trostle

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #113 on: December 03, 2007, 08:44:28 PM »

(clip)

This has been in my head for a number of years.  That being trying to define a criteria that I could plug into a computer so that it reviews the data, and then selects the best judges. I can't come up with that, and so far, no one else has either.

(clip)

Paul Walker

Paul,

There really is a quite sophisticated statistical process that has been developed to do the very thing I think you are looking for.  I have described this before on several previous threads.  Charles Buffalano, a longtime PAMPA member, developed a normalization process for our CL Aerobatic contests that accomplishes a number of things.  It is based on the same system that the full scale aerobatic competitions use, at least at the international and I believe our National level competition.  Not only does it use normalized scores to determine the ranking of individual competitors, but it can also be used to measure judges' performance in terms of accuracy and bias.  Buffalano has also analyzed performance of individual judges for the FAI CIAM organizers after a number of World CL Championships.  Bob Baron championed this process while he was still active and was campaigning hard for change.  Charles wrote a fairly elaborate explanation of the process in the Mar/Apr 96 issue of Stunt News, pages 81-82.  Again, that was during the time that Bob Baron was really stirring the pot for change.  I wrote an introduction to that article.  As I recall, there was absolutely no, like zero, nothing, that appeared in response to that article.  In the several times I have brought this up in these forums, there has been absolutely no response to using any kind of a sophisticated normalization process to determine scores or judge performance.   In my opinion, and based on the zero response of that article and my explanation of it several times since, our CLPA event has not been ready for such a process to be used.

Buffalano's tool could be used in real time at the Nats to measure judge performance.  Regardless of what is said on these forums, some judges do not perform very well.  There have been extreme examples of individual judges ballooning in the later rounds or late in the day of those long days in the sun.  There are numerous examples of judges who do not even come close to placing the fliers they see in the same order as the average scores that we accept as the official placings - either after various rounds of qualifications, or semi finals or the finals.  With your experiment to randomly select judges for the various segments of competition, you are inviting a random selection of various judging  capabilities, and quite possibly end up with  a finals that are satisfying ONLY to the 1 or 2 or 3 fliers on top that the entire field recognize as undeserving.

However, you have, by that time, at least bowed to the vocal malcontents who subscribe to various conspiracies of how inappropriate the Nats are run and claims of improprieties.  According to these people, and now your acceptance of adopting some random process for judge selection, a shadow is officially cast on every Nats and Team Trials for the past 30 plus years.  Do we now need to put an asterisk behind the name of every National Stunt Champion because of some yet to be defined inappropriate operations or out-and-out improprieties occurred?  What makes this so frustrating is that many of those vocal malcontents and most who subscribe to the myths and conspiracy theories do not even bother to compete at the Nats or Team Trials level.= and choose to absolutely not accept that the Nats are run so that each individual has an equal opportunity to demonstrate his skills and to be as fairly judged as possible.

You might want to contact Buffalano to develop his process for use at the Nats to grade judges and to even consider employing a normalized process to determine the placings of each individual competitor, unless you are completely locked in to your random judge selection process.

One thing about the normalized determinination of placings, it requires a computer program, input of scores from each judge of each maneuver, and is not run until all of the scores are in to determine final placings.  In other words, there is no indication of how the competition is going until each segment of the competition (qualifications, semifinals and finals) is completed.  However, the program could be used to analyze individual judge performance at the end of each day or round of competition.

Keith Trostle

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #114 on: December 03, 2007, 10:59:45 PM »
Keith,

Can you explain something in your post please. 

It is obvious you read PW's post.  Due to the fact you gave some very good information about a normalization process that has been discussed in the past.

Then you went on to totally discount PW's actions for running the nats the way he has decided to do so by saying he is just bowing to the wishes of some malcontents who dont even go to the nats.  You didnt even give PW's reason for running the nats this way any merit what so ever for why he might be doing so.  Even after he fully explained the one running theme he has received from many of the judges he has talked with whle putting together the next judging corps.   

Why did you dismiss that reason and then tell us a different reason PW is running the nats this way?  Did he tell you he wanted to quiet down some internet fodder from some people who dont even compete?

I dont really see the point in trying to do that.  Do you?

I for one surely dont see a shadow or a cloud cast over the past 30 years of nats.  Making a change to a future event has nothing to do with the past events.  I have flown in the nats 8 times, 7 of them in row.  I surely felt I got a fair shake at the ones I attended.  To say PW is placing a cloud or shadow over those events is not fair to him or his efforts to run the nats.  He is volunteering his time and vacation to do such a task as are many others.  I for one appreciate the work they do even when I dont go to the nats I still appreciate because it keeps the event alive.

Doug Moon
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #115 on: December 04, 2007, 01:31:22 AM »
Keith,

Can you explain something in your post please. 

(clip)

I for one surely dont see a shadow or a cloud cast over the past 30 years of nats.  Making a change to a future event has nothing to do with the past events.  I have flown in the nats 8 times, 7 of them in row.  I surely felt I got a fair shake at the ones I attended.  To say PW is placing a cloud or shadow over those events is not fair to him or his efforts to run the nats.  He is volunteering his time and vacation to do such a task as are many others.  I for one appreciate the work they do even when I dont go to the nats I still appreciate because it keeps the event alive.


Doug,

I do not doubt for a minute that you do not "see a shadow or a cloud cast over" how the Nats have been run for a long period of time.  However, there are the myth makers and the conspiracy seekers that have been carrying their perceived misconceptions and they have been carping on these for so long, they and many who do not bother to even try to learn the facts nor have ever participated in our major events start to believe that something is wrong with the way the Nats are run.  For example, in post #106 above, the writer stated "Attempting to eliminate even the possible appearance of any impropriety is a positive step."  To me, the writer is suggesting that there have been improprieties in the way our Nats are run.  If the writer did not say that, then he used a poor choice of words.  If that writer did not directly so state, the innuendo is there and others have more directly implied so.  To me, to adopt a totally random selection of judges for the various sessions at our Nats is courting disaster simply because there needs to be a system to minimize skewed regionalism represented among the combinations of judges as well as minimizing the known close affiliations between individual judges and fliers plus the simple fact that by the time the semi-finals and finals are reached, there can be and has been some comparatively poor performance demonstrated by individual judges (as in ballooning and definite bias or even less than competent scoring).  The poorer performing judges should not be judging the final rounds in either the Open or Advanced categories.  To randomly assign judges even prior to the competition can, and I admit, not necessarily result in a combination of judges that may not be able to accurately assess the flying abilities of our top 20 pilots and particularly our to 5 pilots as well as a group of judges whose performance during the Nats is reviewed prior to the semi-finals and finals.  Again, I can foresee a situation developing where only the top 2 or 3 placed individuals at the Nats would be satisfied by the results when the rest of the people there (including competitors and observers) will believe that they have witnessed a travesty. 

How can a random assignment of judges minimize regionalism which is one of the problems seen by the myth makers?  Those myth makers are always anxious to point out the West Coast pattern that they claim is emphasized at the Nats when in reality, the Rulebook Pattern is what is emphasized at the Nats.  Those same myth makers try to rationalize that judges favor certain fliers to ensure certain fliers win and more specifically, to ensure that certain fliers or even a certain flier does not win.  Those same myth makers/conspiracy seekers have stated that it is statistically impossible for the National Stunt Champion title (the Walker Cup) to have been won by only an handfull of individuals over the past 15 or so years.  They are implying that somehow the system is rigged and for some reason, they cannot accept that demonstrated skill/ability has something to do with selecting the National Stunt Champion, not some statistical process.  And now, there has been a clamor to support this "random assignment of judges" as if this somehow will resolve the conspiracies and improprieties that have evidently been prevalent over all of these years.  So Paul comes along and in a sweeping change is going to adopt a system that is being hailed as a brilliant ray of sunshine that eliminates these conspiracies and improprieties.  He is giving credence to the myth makers and the conspiracy seekers and has essentially acknowledged what the myth makers hve been saying about how our Nats have been run for the past 30 plus years.

Yes, Paul is to be commended that he has volunteered his time and energy to run the Nats.  I will even applaud that he is willing to venture into different ways of running the Nats.    Unfortunately, I do not doubt that there will be complaints on the results of his efforts, no matter what the results are or what he does or how well he pulls it off.  Experience only shows that there will be some undertone about the quality of the judges, or something was done by or through the ED that some malcontent feels was somehow not to his understanding or comprehension and resulted in somebody not winning that should have.

Paul is not casting a shadow over the way previous Nats have been run.  That shadow has been cast for many years by a handful of people who generate myths and subscribe to conspiracies.  To adopt a random judge selection process, to me, gives credence to those myth makers and conspiracy seekers and can possibly result in less than optimal assignment of judges which will be grounds for more open complaints about how the Nats are run.

I will agree that in the past, some judges are not satisfied by the way they are assigned to the different circles throughout the Nats event.  Not everybody is going to get to judge the Open Finals, though I think most individuals realize that when they volunteer for the Nats.  The reality of not judging the finals is just not pleasant.  However, I wonder if any random selection of judges for the different venues at this Nats will be any more satisfying to each individual judge in whatever group of judges that do volunteer this year.  In short, a random assignment of judges will likely prove to be no panacea to the judges or to those who study the results of the competition.

Keith Trostle 

Offline SteveMoon

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #116 on: December 04, 2007, 06:36:46 AM »
Keith: As usual, I manage to find your latest response rather offensive. I did not say that there have been any improprieties in past Nats. I was saying that there may have been an appearance that an impropriety could occur. Of course, you have to read more into this than is there. I firmly believe that having the contestants and judges assigned to their circles by random drawing and in public is the better way to do this. You can continue to tell me I'm wrong for the rest of your life, and it will not change what I believe in this matter.

I am also wondering why you keep refering to those of us who have wanted to see a change in the way the Nats are conducted as "vocal malcontents"? And why we are assumed to be the minority? If somebody doesn't agree with you, does that automatically make them a malcontent or minority? I tend to doubt that.

As far as being a "malcontent" I, like Doug, have been generally satisfied with my results at the Nats. I have competed in the last 12 Nats and feel that for the most part I have been judged quite fairly and finished about where I expected to. I thought that I flew the best I have ever flown at a Nats this past year, and I had my highest finish ever. I am quite satisfied with that. I also hope to improve on that this year. If I was such a "malcontent" would I spend a boat load of money to go to Muncie flippin' IN every summer to compete in the Nats?

Now to the question of being the "vocal minority". I don't really know the feelings within your circle of friends concerning this subject. So, I will not make a comment about that. But, within my circle of friends (this includes some Nats contestants and judges) we are applauding heartily Paul's ideas for changes to the Nats. Are there more of us that are happy about this, than not? I don't know. Do you? Personally, I feel that the "vocal minority" has been miscast, and may actually be the majority. I have no concrete proof of that, It's just what I think may be true.

As I've said before I applaud Paul's efforts and am really looking forward to this years Nats.

Steve Moon

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #117 on: December 04, 2007, 09:00:40 AM »
Keith, could you explain the process used in previous years to select judges for the finals. Was it free from personal bias by those who did the selection?

I would think random selection has significant merit and would preclude any sort of "conspiracy nonsense". To those who express discontent you simply say..."Hey, that's the luck of the draw!" A rather simple yet elegant solution.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #118 on: December 04, 2007, 11:04:23 AM »
Keith, could you explain the process used in previous years to select judges for the finals. Was it free from personal bias by those who did the selection?

I would think random selection has significant merit and would preclude any sort of "conspiracy nonsense". To those who express discontent you simply say..."Hey, that's the luck of the draw!" A rather simple yet elegant solution.

Dick,

There is an Event Director's Guide that has been developed by the Event Directors over the years.  There are basically three topics that are used to assign judges.  One of those is to remove the appearance of any particular region being overly represented by any set of judges assigned to a specific circle.   In other words, having a preponderance of judges from any particular region in a group is to be avoided.  This is not always easy to do because sometimes a significant portion of the judges come from the midwest (or more specifically, they come from an area "convenient to the Nats site") though this is not always the case.  At some Nats, there have been a fair number of judges from the West Coast.  As far as I know, for the Nats that I judged for Warren Tiahrt, there has never been more than one West Coast judge used in the finals or the semifinals rounds of the Nats.  In spite of the extraordinary effort by Warren to eliminate even the appearance of regionalism in the judge assignments, there have been accusations, always unwarranted, to the contrary.  Is the elimination of regionalism a good thing?  Maybe not, because when this procedure is followed, sometimes the most competent group of judges is not selected.  (From my own personal experience, I have not been selected to judge the Open semifinals and finals because there was another West Coast judge for each semifinals circle as well as for the finals circle.  I did not mind judging the Advanced Finals as that was part of what was volunteered for.

Another factor considered in judge assignments is to reduce/eliminate the assignment of any judge that has a standing relationship with one or several of the fliers in those semifinals and finals rounds.  This is not to say that the judges cannot know any of the individual competitors.  It would be impossible to assign any group of judges at the Nats where no judge knew any of those being judged.  However, where known personal relationships, where individual judges often fly with the competitors or even have coached any of the competitors, these combinations are reduced to some practical limit.  Here again, Warren has gone to great lengths to minimize the appearance of allowing personal friends/coaches of individual competitors to be assigned to those groups of judges who will be judging the semifinals and finals.

Even during the qualification rounds, efforts are made to make sure that each judge grouping is not overly represented by any single region and to separate those judges who are know to have particular affiliations with any individual or group of competitors.

The third area is (horrors) the rating of individual judge performance as the Nationals proceeds from day to day.  Ballooning has been a problem and probably always will be.  Some judges appear to be more prone to this.  Ballooning is fairly easy to detect when all of the scores are compiled at the end of the round.  Those judges who show ballooning tendencies are simply not assigned to judge during the semifinals and finals rounds.  There is another process that has been used over the years to evaluate judge performance.  It is probably not a statically sound as what a normalization process would provide.  The process is based on the assumption that the average score for each competitor for each of his flights determined by the combination of each judge evaluating that flight is a valid indication of how well that individual flew.  This assumption essentially needs to be made and apperas to be valid as it is those average scores that eventually determine the placing of each individual after the completion of the Nats, the placings are recorded and most seem content to accept those placings.  Now, after a round is completed,  the individual competitors are ranked from the best average score to the lowest average score.  Compared to that "waterfall" chart that shows the highest to lowest average scores, individual judges scores are also plotted.  There is normally some variance in the ranking of individual competitors by each judge.  But using the assumption that the average score is a fair assessment of the individual's flight, there will be judges who are way off of the scale of even being close to assessing individual flight scores and/or individual placings.  Ballooning will show it ugly head here also because it can be shown what time of day (or portion of the round) higher scores that appear out of sync start to appear.  There have been cases where there have been 5 or more judges on a circle.  Most judges will generally have a similar order of how the competitors are placed.  Yet, in one situation, one judge had the order completely reversed.  Now, do you want to have already randomly assigned that judge with that kind of performance to judge the finals?  Or to have already assigned a judge who is prone to ballooning?  I think not.

This evaluation process is probably against any pure statistician's thinking.  (Obviously, I am not a statistician.)  Generally, by the time the semifinals and finals are reached, several of the corps of judge volunteers are not needed and some will not be assigned to the finals round.  The process used over the years is a tool, in my opinion as accurate as the scoring system we use to determine placings of competitors, to help assign a group of judges that will yield the best possible assessment of each individual competitor.

I do not think selection of our National Stunt Champion and the placing at our Nats should be written off as simply the luck of the draw.  Yes, weather can play a part and that can become a significant fact involving the luck of the draw.  However, the weather is something the ED cannot control.  The ED can control various aspects of the competition that does minimize to some extent how the luck of the draw might impact the final results.  Of those things the ED can control is the seeding process and how the judges are assigned to various circles.  Warren Tiahart and those preceding him should all be applauded for trying to make the competition field as level as possible while minimizing the luck of the draw to some acceptable level.  (Let the naysayers howl, but they are the ones who chose either not to understand or are incapable of understanding the efforts taken over long periods of time to make the Nats as fair as possible for every individual competitor.)

I have judged at 11 Nats and Team Trials.  Based on my knowledge of our stunt event and experience with being the ED at previous Nats and Team Trials as well as being a judge at 3 World Championships, I have had the privilege to be asked by Warren to be involved with sorting through the judge assignment process.  Admittedly, it is not a perfect process, but I can say that there is no doubt in my mind that the process used to select and assign the judges thoughout each entire Nats and Team Trials program is absolutely free from any personal bias that could in any way be a negative impact on the placing of any individual competitor.  Contrary to statements from the myth makers, the people involved with these processes are well above the actions of those myth makers.  Many understand that the myth makers have no credibility.  Unfortunately, there those who do not have the experience or knowledge to doubt the subterfuge that is generated by the continued harangue that comes from that small but destructive group.

This has all been explained before.  But, thanks for asking.

Keith Trostle

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #119 on: December 04, 2007, 11:28:10 AM »
Keith, thanks for the explaination. I appreciate you taking the time to cover the subject again.

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Online Paul Walker

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #120 on: December 04, 2007, 01:05:18 PM »
Keith said:  "However, you have, by that time, at least bowed to the vocal malcontents who subscribe to various conspiracies of how inappropriate the Nats are run and claims of improprieties.  According to these people, and now your acceptance of adopting some random process for judge selection, a shadow is officially cast on every Nats and Team Trials for the past 30 plus years.  Do we now need to put an asterisk behind the name of every National Stunt Champion because of some yet to be defined inappropriate operations or out-and-out improprieties occurred?  What makes this so frustrating is that many of those vocal malcontents and most who subscribe to the myths and conspiracy theories do not even bother to compete at the Nats or Team Trials level.= and choose to absolutely not accept that the Nats are run so that each individual has an equal opportunity to demonstrate his skills and to be as fairly judged as possible."

Maybe in your eyes I have bowed. That is not the reason for what I have done. In trying to get judges to volunteer for this NATs, I found that "some" were not interested because they have not been allowed to judge in the finals. I have reviewed the provided information to them, and in one case it was for what I considered a subjective assessment, that I didn't see the same way. The other case was really due to proximity, and that person was told their score didn't measure up to the rest.  Another wanted a guarantee that they would judge in the finals (which I couldn't provide either way) due to the cost in getting there.

I will be working with Shareen to develop a plan for quantifying the process to be put on a computer. The judges will know up front what the criteria is that potentially weeds them out. From the ones that are left, there will be a draw.  Yes, this is slightly different than what I had described earlier. There will be some consideration of the issues you described, but the filter will be a bit coarse to start off with. Maybe we learn that the criteria used is too coarse, and if so, it will be modified accordingly for the next year. As I mentioned earlier, there will be more breaks for the judges, and longer oner as well, to do what we can to avoid the burnout and then ballooning that comes from that. The worse day for this is going to be the semifinals day. More breaks should help this. The finals will only be 15 flights, with long breaks between rounds. Then different judges will be used for the Walker Cup. No burnout as a result of this!

The one issue that does concern me is the proximity issue. Guys, it's hard to get judges to do this for a week. You are going to get "groups" of regions represented in the judging as a result.  However, I don't see this as any different than the World Champs. If we were to carry the same criteria that is being used at our NAT's, the US would never see a US judge at the World Champs. In fact, who WOULD judge there. Your criteria would consider any judge from country A "too close" to any flier from country A.  In fact, Gary McClellan judged the last WC's and he saw me fly in Seattle only a month prior to being in Spain.  Maybe I should surrender my medal as a result!!! We have gone past this issue at the WC's. Why does it have to create so many problems here in the US? As I discussed in a previous post, I intend to filter out an obvious bias in a judge. If some are concerned that someone from a nearby region will judge their nearby flier higher, this bias filter will find that obvious bias, before the finals. I know that TED is concerned about judging Brett, and that is for appearances only, however, I believe Ted will do a fine job no matter. As I also said before, I would give that judge a chance to opt out if they felt uncomfortable doing that. Again, I know there is a perception issue, but if they are randomly drawn, I don't see the issue (as they were not placed there on purpose).


You might want to contact Buffalano to develop his process for use at the Nats to grade judges and to even consider employing a normalized process to determine the placings of each individual competitor, unless you are completely locked in to your random judge selection process.

I will contact Charles. 

Paul W


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #121 on: December 05, 2007, 10:12:40 AM »
This is getting to be ridiculous,  I have been fortunate enough to go compete in some meets outside of my area.  It seems the judges were more leniant than the local judges I have flown in front of.  If someone can prove that our NATS judges aren't doing the best job possible then that judge should be pointed out.  I myself have not judged that many contests because of the people I know.  But, when I did judge I could care less about who was in the circle except to see I had the right score sheet.  The pilot and plane are supposed to be doing the pattern the way I think the book says it should be done.  As stated some judges are afraid to give low scores for a bad maneuver and sometimes when an exceptional maneuver is done does not get the proper score.  Anyway this coming year is Pauls show lets give him some support.  DOC Holliday
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2007, 10:19:44 AM »
Thanks, Doc.  A point most should remember is that CLPA is not a mandatory activity!  No one is forced to ever compete, much less attend a NATS as a competitor!   The process is spelled out, and it is the same for all.  If an individual does not agree with the process, then they can opt to exercise their personal right of not participating!  There will, in all probability, still be a NATS where CLPA is flown and a NATS Champ is crowned.  Harsh?  not in any way.  A true competitor accepts the rules/procedures in place at the time and participates to the best of their abilities.  Or they choose another endeavor to participate in!
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Re: Seeding
« Reply #123 on: December 05, 2007, 11:45:38 AM »
A point most should remember is that CLPA is not a mandatory activity!  No one is forced to ever compete, much less attend a NATS as a competitor!   The process is spelled out, and it is the same for all.  If an individual does not agree with the process, then they can opt to exercise their personal right of not participating!

HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLD ON A MINUTE!!!
I am usually wrong...but somewhere in my demented memory banks...when one PLUNKS DOWN PRETTY USELESS $$$ FOR THEIR LITTLE AMA CARD...I thought that came with VOTING RIGHTS WITH THE ABILITY TO IMPROVE AND CHANGE THINGS.
OK! EZ....I know pretty much how much our insurance program covers...and yes, a pretty good magazine comes with it...and most importantly....allows the worthy, to compete in toy airplane competitons.

Still I am under the impression that the membership that is saddled with all this AMA extra $$$ spent making a Castle in the sky to themselves...IT SHOULD RIGHTFULLY BE THE MEMBERSHIPS DUTY TO USE THAT SAME VOTING RIGHT...IN ORDER TO IMPROVE ITSELF for the masses of folks who just wanna fly toy airplanes and have a great time doin it?
After reading my crap....I would like to make an apolo.....for those who do their HECKITY DARNEST OF TIRELESS GIVING OF THEIR TIME, TALENT, EFFORT AND YES....DOWN RIGHT LOVE OF THE "SPORT!"
I have NO RIGHT TO EVEN RESPOND TO THIS THREAD...since I am NOT AN AMA MEMBER so deservingly so...
I SHOULD AND HAVE NO VOICE!  n1
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 01:39:31 PM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Offline Bill Little

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2007, 12:06:11 PM »
Brother Shultzie,

I am not in any way saying that the process of voting should not be used.  BUT, we are talking about a NATS event that is handed over to the SIG (in this case PAMPA) for administration at the NATS.  PAMPA has basically worked out the procedures for administration of the CLPA event at the NATS. So, I am not talking about changing things now.  That (AMA Rules Change) would take a two year process and the cycle is over for now.  I am not even sure that the AMA sets the procedure, but instead leaves that up to the ED/CD in charge with their  (AMA) approval.

So just HOW would someone go about changing this procedure?? AND, can they even change it?  ???
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Offline Shultzie

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2007, 01:41:14 PM »
My apologies to you...Bill for "runnin' off at the lip again!
Dumb-n' dumber don (no wonder I am exiled here in Gig Haaaba?) ~> VD~
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Offline Paul Smith

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Seeding Frenzy
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2007, 01:50:16 PM »
This is quite the HOT topic, radioactive to say the least !!!

167 comments and 2071 viewing on two forums. If all these people flew, they'd need eight circles and 24 judges.

It seems like Mr. Walker's seeding plan has been accepted without much argument and the discussion has morphed into some questions about the selection and performance of the judges......
« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 04:09:51 PM by ama21835 »
Paul Smith

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2007, 02:35:29 PM »
The selection of judges and circle appointments was also a part of the initial post.
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Offline Marvin Denny

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Re: Seeding Frenzy
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2007, 05:34:25 PM »


167 comments and 2071 viewing on two forums. If all these people flew, they'd need eight circles and 24 judges.

    HMMM  How so ?  Out of viewings and postings, I fine only 40  individuals  posting, and of that number some are not even AMA members and others do not attend the nationals I would say four judges and two circles could handle everything and still have time for several breaks.  The viewers is even more skewed as most viewers have viewed MANY MANY times, ans most of those are the posters themselves.

  Bigiron
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Offline Dennis Adamisin

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #129 on: December 05, 2007, 07:59:34 PM »
Ya know, while I've been away, I have watched my kids particiapate in Dance competitons, Cheerleading, Poms, Marching Band, Jazz band, & Concert band competitions - all with PROFESSIONAL judges.  My observation is that by comparison our volunteer judges do a pretty good job!  Doesn't mean it could not be better, but I wonder if we are using all the tools in the arsenal to train and evaluate our judges?  To wit:

I am sure we have all experienced the frustration of a judge(s) that seem to fall in love with a number and write it down for every manuver.  Looking at the scoresheets you cannot see any differential between something you did well and something you did poorly.  Yet we seem to want judges that "see the same thing".  I think by seeking and "rewarding" that behavior we run the risk of handcuffing judges - after all those who got too high or too low will either have their scores thrown out or they won't "make the cut" at the next round's judge selections.  By the time we get to the finals we got judges "trained" not to stray...

Put a different way; I have always learned more from judges that use as much of the point spread as they (and my flying errors) can stand: If I made four mistakes they'll catch them all with a big fat downgrade, if I did four things right they'll reward that too!  Unfortunately these are the judges who will tend to sway from the mean, and who might be weeded out for doing so.  Instead, somehow I wish there was a way to instead weed out the judges who are stuck on a number and not comfortable using a broader range of scores.

I find that I really care less about whether the judges are only 10 points apart instead of 70 points apart.  What I REALLY hope is that when I compare their scores on a manuver to manuver basis, it looks like they are mapping the same flight!

At the sailplane NATs we "normalized" scores for each flight group.  This overcame the "luck of the draw" with respect to groups flying in high lift versus high sink conditions - Its tough to fly a 12 minute task in 5 minute air!  Of course the TD sailplane task is dirt simple: timed duration and spot landing.  Still, it begs the question of HOW to use some kind of normalization scheme in something as intricate as CLPA judging.

Keith mentioned Charles Buffalano's system: is this that silver bullet we're looking for?
* Could it find a judge who was sitting on a score?
* If it can document when a judge is ballooning, is their a method to adjust that out of the scores?
* What else can it do?

Denny Adamisin
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #130 on: December 05, 2007, 09:46:41 PM »
My apologies to you...Bill for "runnin' off at the lip again!
Dumb-n' dumber don (no wonder I am exiled here in Gig Haaaba?) ~> VD~

Brother Donaldo,

No apologies here, my friend.  I didn't really mean what it sounded like (I think!).  What I was saying is, how DO we go about changing any of this?  it appears to be up to the ED/CD and committee to decide how things go.  I am not sure myself.  Just observing what has been written!  Paul has pointed out how HE is going to do it. (not that I have the slightest problem with that!)  Just that I don't know that it is done any other way.  It seems that the majority of the decisions are left up to the ED, with guidance from the Guidelines in place.

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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2007, 06:40:56 AM »

Keith mentioned Charles Buffalano's system: is this that silver bullet we're looking for?
* Could it find a judge who was sitting on a score?
* If it can document when a judge is ballooning, is their a method to adjust that out of the scores?
* What else can it do?


Some years ago, when I presented my ideas for using Minitab (statistical analysis software) to study judge's scores in a Nats type environment, Brett Buck said on SSW that *no* statistical method could be used to pinpoint bias in judging.  Brett is pretty smart, so I figured that was the end of it. 

If statistical methods (no matter how elementary) cannot be used to find *bad* judges, it cannot be used to find *good* judges.

From what I have seen, the methods used in the past to find "good" judges has never stood up to direct "academic" scrutiny.  The method used by Gary McClellan that he presented at a DMAA club meeting in 2002 was was a simple line graph in Excel.  It was certainly not complex.  It was also completely not conclusive in any way, and was completely open to personal interpretation (which is where the problem lies---a "good" judge to you may not be a "good" judge to me depending on what fliers' scores we are looking at on this little line graph).  All this being said it was being promoted  it as a method to "graduate" judges at the Nats.

I would rather see a coin toss, at least it is in God's hands.  At least if you had a gripe, you could take it up with God.

If "analytical" methods are to be used, at a minimum, whatever method one uses, a detailed description should be made available to the judges and pilots.  The only problem is that once published the method will be open to criticism and scrutiny.  So, it is better to just stick to the coin toss...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2007, 06:38:23 PM »
Please show me your Minitab idea.  Some of us were discussing judge-picking programs earlier this year, but it was close to the Nats, and nobody had time to work on a program.

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Making combat and stunt great again

Offline phil c

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #133 on: December 07, 2007, 12:57:05 PM »
here is  a web site that is set up to do the basic ANOVA needed to assess a batch of stunt scores.
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/stats/anova.html
phil Cartier

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #134 on: December 07, 2007, 02:20:49 PM »
here is  a web site that is set up to do the basic ANOVA needed to assess a batch of stunt scores.
http://www.physics.csbsju.edu/stats/anova.html

Yah, Phil and I have talked a lot about statistical methods to study scores both online and on the phone. 

Phil knows more about statistic study of variation and bias than anyone I have ever spoken too.  Though there are some pretty sharp Master Black Belts in Six Sigma here at Textron.

I do not get the double standard.  One guy's statistical analysis is bull and another guy's is unquestionable.  Phil was there for the online lynching on SSW, when I suggested using Minitab to study scores.  Now we can't live without analysis?  What gives?


"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Seeding
« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2007, 07:27:55 PM »
I looked at the Web site.  Can you elaborate on how you would apply this to stunt? 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again


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