Score of the century

[RC Storick]

At the broken arrow contest I scored a brand new ST.60 at a steal price. $100.00. So my intention is to see what power is really the best. Come next season I will have a PA.75 , E-flight 25 and a ST.60 plane of all around the same caliber. so the test really begins. I have my suspicions. I am in need of 13X6 EW rev-ups so PM me if you have them and you would let go of them.

I am starting on my ST.60 plane today and would like to have the first flight sometime next month. I'm off work so I have time.I will post some pic's as I go.

[MarcusCordeiro]

The ST 60 has been an everybody's favorite for years, including myself, but I'd keep an eye on that eletric...

Marcus

[Gene O'Keefe]

If it hasn't been done, send it to Tom Lay for his ( and I mean it ) "magic" touch and it'll be  better than stock new. I've run both (new stock & Tom's touch) and the difference is quite noticable. Consistant one flip starts and "much" more power/torque.

[RC Storick]

I have had many stock ones that work just fine.

[Dan Bregar]

Robert

You might also consider the E Flite Pwr 32 mtr if you are going to compare it to a 60 or some other brand of a somewhat larger E mtr.. Just saying. 

[Gerald Schamp]

I'll check Bob, I may have some props you are looking for.

Gerald

[Dan McEntee]

  No, I got the score of the century. At one of the local swap meets several years ago, I was looking for ST.60s and .46s. Came across a table with a box full of parts for the light case .60s. At a glance I could tell that there were a lot of parts, and would be nice to have just for those if I needed them. Asked the guy home much for the box and he said, "Two." And I asked, "Two hundred?" and he laughed and said, "No, two bucks." I gave a couple of bucks and when I went home I inventoried the contents and there was enough parts to build two engines. Might have needed a screw or two, but I sent them to Tom Lay and they are now in my inventory. I have messed with these, the newer ST.51, and four strokes and each is a different kind of power and I find that kind of interesting and emjoy them all. Just got to figger out how yo use the type of power you are using.
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[wwwarbird]

 Very cool Sparky. I've never run an ST.60 for C/L, but years ago I had a blue head one on an R/C plane. It was a super reliable easy to run stump puller. It was on multiple planes during it's life and it still ran great after countless flights. By memory, it is still one of my favorite engines ever.

 I would also agree with your comment about having a stock one work and run just fine with no mods. Nothing against those who like to try and "tweak" their C/L engines, but I feel a lot of the time it's just more overthinking than really necessary.

 Looking forward to CONSTRUCTION PICS!!!

[Derek Barry]

I am sure the 75 be the winner. If you really want to put them to the test, tie the tails together and fire them up.

Derek

[RC Storick]

I guess I just miss the 2-4 stunt grunt run.

[Doug Moon]

Wouldnt you need to build the same plane to accept all 3 motors to really get a good comprison?

I had a smallish Bear with an ST60 in it and it was pretty awesome.

I flew the St 60 plane one day and the pipe 65 the very next day, two different planes.  The pipe was superior.  BUT the St 60 was a alot of fun to fly and listen too as it would just grind around the circle and break so clean everywhere.  It was like magic.  Like a light switch.  AND it did fly good, VERY good, but it wasn't the same thing. 

[Steve Fitton]

Don't forget to add the 40 VF to the test pool.

[Derek Barry]

Don't forget to add the 40 VF to the test pool.

 

[Garf]

The best deal I found recently was a box containing a Fox Combat Special taken completely apart for $5.00. Turned out to be a MK-6, brand new.

[Dave_Trible]

Very nice find Robert!  I'd like to find a new .46 somewhere.  I DID just latch onto two McCoy .19 Red Heads and two Wen Mac .049's- NONE ever had a drop of fuel in them nor been screwed down.  I have two grandkids and a third on the way so........

Dave

[steven yampolsky]

I am in need of 13X6 EW rev-ups so PM me if you have them and you would let go of them.
work so I have time.I will post some pic's as I go.

Stock ST60 works very well with Bolly 13x5 or 6. Launch at 9500RPM and pitch for comfortable lap speed. I would not bother with Tom Lay re-work purely because this is an experiment, not an investment in a power plant system. Stock is enough to get the idea of what ST60 are all about.

I've been flying 40VFs and RoJets for the past 5 years and to be honest, I miss the sound, the feel of a perfectly tuned ST60. ST60 may not be the "IT" motor of this season but ST60 is THE motor for the soul.

[Chris McMillin]

I use a Bolly fibreglass 13x5 and set it off at 8800 on 68 footers on a 75 oz model. It picks up in flight a bit after launch, I use a plastic clunk tank.
The venturi and spray bar are stock (I like them that way), the ring is whatever Tom Lay used, if stock had a good gap he retained them at that time. Same bearings since I got it in 1990. I replaced the rod with a double bushed type after the unbushed one galled inflight.
I use straight castor and 50/50 castor and synthetic, seems to like either. Nitro is 5 to 10%, but have used 25% at hot contests.
Mine uses 7 1/4 oz per flight. Always has. I hear guys talking about much less fuel consumption, and smaller props, but mine takes big props and burns a lot of fuel.
Chris...

[Andrew Borgogna]

That's what I love about electric, no magic people with magic touch, they just work.  You aren't beholding to anybody.
Andy

[Allen Brickhaus]

I ran Rev Up 12 X 5W's on all my .60's.

Allen

[Will Davis]

I would send the engine to Tom Lay, to have him check it out and perform the necessary mods . I have been using one from him since 1996. Kinda like riding a Harley, others might be better, more powerful, but sound and power of the engine is different than all others , not better , just different


Prop of choice is bolly 12 to 12.75 diameter. 6 pitch

[steven yampolsky]

That's what I love about electric, no magic people with magic touch, they just work.  You aren't beholding to anybody.

Riiiiiiight. One of the most used motors in the history of Stunt and it's woodoo magic that makes it work.
Sheesh, it's 4-stroke wave of mid 2000's all over again. Same claims of only this time it's the electronuts.

[Randy Powell]

Robert,

You might think about the Thundertiger 12.5 x 5.5. I used this on an ST 60 and it's awesome.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

I would send the engine to Tom Lay, to have him check it out and perform the necessary mods . I have been using one from him since 1996. Kinda like riding a Harley, others might be better, more powerful, but sound and power of the engine is different than all others , not better , just different


Prop of choice is bolly 12 to 12.75 diameter. 6 pitch

No offense, but I would check with Tom Lay before sending him anything right now.  I sent 2 SuperTigre engines and several hundred dollars for parts and mods back in February - 7 months ago - and haven't heard anything from him since early August, when I received this note:

To my long time T&L customers.
The time finally came when immediate lower back surgery is a must , to release some  pinched nerves that are causing some extremely intense pain in my right leg, and right shoulder. I have not been able to work on T&L motors very much lately. The surgery is on July 19th. They tell me the recovery period shouldn’t be too long, but they won’t make a recovery time  estimate, for me to pass on.
Because I used your payment to purchase parts to rework your motors, I cannot offer to refund anyone’s  funds.  But if you can wait a little longer for your motor, I think you will see that it was worth waiting for. My motors usually give many, many years of trouble free flying, so I hope you can be understanding, and have patience?
I have already made a special, vertical back chair, and hope to resume reworks within a couple of weeks?
To those of you who have supported me and my services for 40 years, MANY THANKS for your understanding, and patience.
Sincerely,
Tom Lay, T&L Specialties

To make it more frustrating, Tom had earlier written:

Dennis. Your 46 would not come apart, and I ruined it trying to get it disassembled. I found and bought another 46 for you, at my own expense. I should get the motor this weekend at our Stunt Contest. Sorry again for the delay. i'm still working 80 hour weeks, and still always behind.
Tired Tom

Tom has a great reputation and I'm eagerly waiting, but back problems can put a guy in dire pain for quite awhile.  Keep that in mind before sending anything to Tom ...


Dennis

[Bill Morell]

Actually this is nothing new when sending a engine to Tom. It is always a long wait. He normally waits until he has several engines to do that are the same ie 46 or 60.

[Steve Fitton]

For the Sparkster's purposes, I imagine running the ST-60 stock would be just fine.  If it absolutely has to have rework, I imagine Randy Smith can still do one of his ST-60 reworks.  Dennis's comment makes it clear that Tom Lay is probably going to be recovering for awhile.

[Bill Little]

HI Sparky,

$100 NIB is a great find.  About 20 years ago I found two light case ST .60s still in the shipping crate.  $100 each.  I was very happy at the time.  One left here in a model I sold, the other is still untouched in the box.  (for those wondering, no it's not for sale)

With Richie K.'s World Championships win in 2010, it shows that whatever works for you is what to use.  Igor has now won with electric, but it might not be a twenty year run just yet where everyone wins with electric.  There have been 7 WC's in the 2000's and 4 strokes, pipes, ST .60, and Electric have won.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[RC Storick]

To everyone. Before I started running PA's I ran stock Supertigers. Everyone needs to know what I do for a living, Engines. So this is a easy deal for me. The stock ones worked just fine.

[Dan McEntee]

  In absence of the un-obtanium Rev-Up 13-6, I tried a Vess 13-6 and it woke up my 72 ounce Cardinal with a T&L .60 in it. It made the engine sound like it should also and I knew right from the minute I started it that this prop would do the trick. They are about 9 or 10 bucks but at least you can buy them from most hobby shops. I gotta try that Thunder Tiger prop also. I've had success with the other sizes I've tried, but I dopn't think I have that one in my stash.
  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Doug Moon]

The power point prop from Top Flight is a good one as well. 13-6 pitch worked very good.

[steven yampolsky]

It is amazing how obsessed we are as a community on reworking every motor we get our hands on. We continue to perpetrate two myths:

• The motor is the cause of poor or inconsistent performance.
• Every motor is incapable of having a good, persistent performance out of the box

Both of these myths are wrong and what's worse, it gives newcomers the wrong impression. I should know, I'm a relative newcomer(flew first full pattern in 2003) and I have gone through the "rework" phase. Here's what I found:

As a community we've know the motor universe of what I would call Stunt-friendly motors. There are the purpose designed product lines such as  PA, RoJett, Stalker or Brodak. Then there are RC motors that work extremely well as stunt motors. These are the ST46/60, OS 40/46VF, Saito 56/62/72, OS46LA, etc. All these motors can run consistently with few(if any) modifications. What separates purpose designed motors from from RC motors is the operating range. A PA 61 can run consistently with an amazing range of props, RPM's and exhaust options(mufflers or pipes). A 40VF will only run on a pipe with low pitch props and high RPM's. No amount of rework will make a 40VF spin a 12x6 prop at 6500 RPMS on a header muffler. That said, EVERY one of the stunt-friendly motors has a well know configuration that are very easy to follow.

The point I am trying to make is that reworked stunt-friendly motors rarely improve performance more than a properly setup fuel system, balance prop, clean fuel and good plug.

[Eric Viglione]

Steve Y. - I agree with you for the most part... about not needing any mod's, and in Sparky's case, he's a HD mechanic so probably can handle a small 2 cycle without any help... BUT... in the case of a 30+ year old ringed engine, even if it's new in box, I would suggest to the average user to have it professionally "CLA" (Clean Lube & Adjusted as the saying goes) by someone like Randy Smith, not necessarily modified by anyone. My guess is that Randy would clean the engine, put in new bearings, maybe a ring if it's damaged from dry flipping, then reassemble it, and not "modify" a dern thing. (Randy, help me here!)

I can say with some authority that these old motors very possibly can have the ring and or the con rod stuck from sitting. So, what? Well, the first time you go to run it, the ring breaks and may or may not score the sleeve, or if it doesn't break but stays stuck, will egg out your sleeve, just like an improper ring gap would, and if the rod is stuck, it may run what seems "fine" for a while, maybe seem a bit down on power, as it eggs out your nice lower rod end because the upper rod end is not moving freely on the rod up inside the piston, which is also egging out the rod hole in the piston. (ask me how I know) The bearings may or may not be stuck, and will flat spot the balls in the race on you in short order if not cleaned before running also, and if the bearings are rusty, the rust breaks loose and runs through your sleeve and ring to get out the exhaust port, and if the plastic bearing seals are old dried out and cracked, the front end of your new stunter will be oil soaked in short order. Nice huh?

I guess it boils down to if you want your nice "new in box" 30 + year old engine to last 50 flights or 500 flights. Up to y'all. Ya pays your money, you takes your chances.

EricV

[steven yampolsky]

I would suggest to the average user to have it professionally "CLA" (Clean Lube & Adjusted as the saying goes)

100% agree!!!
That's not a "rework" though.

[RC Storick]

Well I have the engine and I have inspected it. I have flipped it and it has great compression. I would be willing to bet that it will be just fine as is. Thanks all for the concern but its not needed. If it needs a new ring or bearings, I think I have the expertise to gap and fit it or install the bearings. Machinery is not a new endeavor to me.

[Bill Little]

100% agree!!!
That's not a "rework" though.

HI Steven,

Don't sell "ALL" reworks short.  Certain people can make a different for the better to an engine.  Even if it is only a "Balance and Blueprint" job.  I have experienced the difference between certain engines "stock" then the same engine reworked.  It is true that an engine can be ruined in the wrong hands, but if it is handled by the best engine guys it will be better.  No question.  Then it is simply s matter of following their instructions on running it.  One example is the ST G.51.  I have run them stock and also reworked by Tom Lay and Randy Smith.  The "reworks" just have a better, easier to achieve, stunt run.

Bill

[RC Storick]

By the way thanks to my old Eugine prop buster flying buddy Gerald Shamp I have the props I wanted. Yes I use to fly in Oregon.

[bob whitney]

i have been making and using a bolly 14/6 carbon  copy's  cut to either 12.5/6 or 12/6 set at 8,600  on my ST 60's one a T/L and the other done by me  they pull my Big job around like a champ .

[EddyR]

Listen to what Eric said. Brand new 30 year old ST motors will almost every time have the wrist pin stuck to the piston. The motor will flip over great and even run quite well but it will be down in power. It will use more fuel and wear out the rod rather quickly.
Sparky can take the motor apart and make shure the wrist pin will drop in. When I was reworking the ST/46's the tight pin was the most common problem I saw. Long ago Eric gave me a new in the Box ST/40. He said it would not run. I took it apart and it had rusted bearings,broken ring and the wrist pin frozen to the piston. He left it with me and years later I rebuilt the motor with replacement parts.That was Eric's first exposure to mint condition junk motors.
I still have the motor and it is one of my favorites.
Ed

[Chris McMillin]

That's what I love about electric, no magic people with magic touch, they just work.  You aren't beholding to anybody.
Andy

Mr. Not Beholden,
Where'd you get your timer?
Chris...

[Crist Rigotti]

Bob,
How about a build thread on your ST 60 powered ship?

[Leo Mehl]

Isn't steal spelled STEAL?. A great buy at that price.

[RC Storick]

I cant spell. Did you know what I meant?