Sand Bagging

[Paul Taylor]

Reading the thread:     
"If you could add a new maneuver to the schedule" got me to thinking.

I am not here to start a fire, just some open dialog on what I feel is a problem.
Before I get started I will say this... I was accused of Sand Bagging at Brodaks this year because I entered Beginner. I had planned on flying Intermediate with my son Ryan. But I got very little handle time before the contest and I did not know how to do 5 or 6 of the stunts. So if I could not fly the full pattern, I had no choice but to stay in Beginner.

One thing that is very discouraging is that the Intermediate class seems to be the largest in size of any other class. Anyway that does not do someone like me "a up and coming pilot" have to fly with guys putting up 450+ scores. I could be way out in left field, but I think 450+ should be in advance.

I think it should be like Drag racing. If your time is faster then your qualified time, then you break out of your class and you get DQ'ed.  That would force people to move up to the class where they belong.

How many (put your class here) First or Second place trophy's does someone need? Unless you are in the Top Class. Expert, World Champ, Bass Masters.

I know someone will say... well I am just doing this for fun. Heck we all are. But if you just want to have fun, fly in Expert and have fun doing it. Give someone else a chance.
Maybe we all fly at the same time and then drop the scores into the correct classes. That way it is what it is.

Me thinking out loud...

 

[Randy Powell]

Paul,

It's an interesting point. Around here at least, we don't get much of that. Anyone that tried to drop down and sandbag would, no doubt, be ruthlessly teased into flying where they belong. I've kidded about dropping down to Advanced (usually after a really poor performance - all too often for me), but I wouldn't do it. I'm forever resigned to being an Expert class bottom dweller. And that's OK.

Just had another thought. How about everyone flies and the scores are posted. If you fly a 300-400 flight, you are placed in Intermediate. 400-500 Advanced and so on. Then, after your score is placed in the bracket (Beginner, Intermediate, Advance or Expert), you are placed within the class. Not sure it would work, but it's an interesting idea.

[Clint Ormosen]

Around here, Advanced is always the bigest class. I fly there too. The scores usually range from 450-500 without pattern points. Intermediate usually runs scores from 400-460 or so.
The problem with automatic advancement is that the judging is subjective. One judges' 450 is another's 525. This can cause a pilot to advance classes before he's really ready to move. Western Associated Modelers had this type of advancement- Beginner to 400, Advanced 400-500, Expert 500 & up.(no intermediate class).  Worked ok, but judges had to be careful about giving high scores.
Paul, don't be afraid to get into that Intermediate class as soon as you can do all the tricks. Flying with guys better than you will make you up your game. However, if you have flown Intermediate in the past and then stepped down to Beginner again, I can see a few people crying about it. Once you're up in class, better stay there.

[Norm Faith Jr.]

Gee Paul! When I flew in Intermediate I thought it had the most fliers. After moving up to Advanced I'm convinced it has the most fliers.  Flying PA is like playing the game of golf...Sometimes you play a great round and more often you don't. About the time you become so frustrated; you are ready to quit; you hit that one ball...that one great shot...the one that makes you stay for more. Norm 

[Dennis Moritz]

Don't sweat it, Paul. Congrats. You got a ribbing. High compliment. Intermediate folks aren't that tough. Actually, knowing most of those Intermediate pretenders at Brodak and elsewhere, having seen many of them fly for a few years, they REALLY aren't that good, or they're young, gaining experience. Besides a few of the Intermediate fliers will be outta there next year. At Brodak judges (and others) police the classes in a funny good natured way. Maybe there are one or two shy folks in Intermediate needing a shove (they'll get it), but, for the most part, doubt that's the case.

[Bill Little]

I moved up simply because my son moved up to the class I was flying in............... 

There is NO real way to ascertain who should move up or when.  It has been duly noted that judges *scores* are not a true criteria.  Some judges are higher and some lower.  As long as the final order is pretty close to correct, there is no beef about it.  I have flown much better patterns at different places and received a lower score, and the reverse is also true.  I remember flying a 500 when I first moved to Advanced, it wasn't a *500 point* flight, but I finished second and the guy who beat me did just that.  He beat me, so the scores were irrelevant.

Until there is some Universal manner to determine points (remember it is all subjective being done by humans, regardless), going by scores is not a true indication of advancement.  A pilot has stopped coming to at least one contest because he was *booted* (at two separate contests for two consecutive years) and everyone knew he should be!

How about the guy who has flown in Advanced (or any class above beginner) and then doesn't fly for over a year or two?  He can't drop, so all that is left is flying for fun.  A certain NATS winner dropped out for YEARS (decades?) and was forced to fly Expert upon his first return to the contest trail.......

Mongo

[peabody]

Hi Paul...
Actually, Beginner is the ONLY skill class where "move up" is clearly defined.
Beginner is a class for "those that cannot perform the full (regular) pattern"......if you can fly the entire pattern in the correct order, no manner how poorly, the rule book states that you may not fly Beginner.
I wish that it was this easy do define the "move up" points for the other skill classes.
Have fun!

[Alan Resinger]

It's really very easy.  Except for Expert Class, if you fly markedly better than the others in the class you are flying with that day, you need to move up.  A $15 trophy isn't worth any ill feelings.  Hey this is a hobby and is supposed to be fun for everyone involved.  I feel like the only person I'm really competing with, is myself.

[ray copeland]

Paul, I just saw this topic. Strange but i have been having similar discussions, mine are based around the jump from beginner to intermediate. With one meeting a month and 100 miles to travel to practice with a skilled flier i find it hard to learn some of the maneuvers needed to move up. So i opted this time to learn the ots pattern by myself. Bad thing is i was doing the vertical eights straight in front of me and nearly crashing my plane every time. So i did not compete in OTS this time, just watched and learned a lot, bad thing was when it came time for my beginner pattern in Pampa i did the ots eights the first round.    Anyway, my suggestion would be not for a new maneuver but for a new class. Maybe Beginner 1 and 2 or Intermediate 1 and 2. Beginner 2 could have a couple more of the full pattern maneuvers added or Intermediate 1 could have a few less. I know this would be difficult to pull off at some of the contests, but maybe at some of the larger ones such as Brodaks. Just a thought, anyway i am still loving flying and learning.  Ray Copeland

[john e. holliday]

In away we have that now in our area for beginner.  It is basic flight and beginner.  But, most places don't have that.

Basic flight is just that.  You take off,  fly level,  do a climb or wingover your choice and then landing.  I put the grand kids in beginner because most places do not have basic flight.  Those that have flown basic flight do not get to fly it again in my group of grand kids. 

Now I coached a fellow pilot that was doing most of the maneuvers and flying the beginner pattern.  We had a contest coming up and he wanted to fly beginner and I asked him why.  I pointed out to him he was doing most of the pattern.  He did not think he could do the vertical eight and clover.  When I described how I do it he tried it with very little effort and made it look easy.  First contest he enters Int and takes first.  Since lthat contest he either placed first or second that year and the next.  He moved to Adv and proceded to be in the top three most of the time.  Now I can't even get him out to fly with me as I think it got boring for him. 

By the way Rootbeard, how did you do without me going and looking?  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

PS:I know of a flyer that usually messes up the pattern so his score will keep him from winning or even making the top three.   jeh

[Alan Hahn]

We have a friend here who refused to learn one of the advanced maneuvers (I think the hourglass) because he wanted to stay in beginner and win it at the NATS. Unfortunately for him, life intervened (a severe illness), and he never got his chance to go to the NATS, and actually dropped out of CL. However he went into another modeling activity and is now a NATS champ (multiple years) in another (not CL) event.

So was he a sandbagger. Yes he was, but he was also a determined competitor who carefully judged his own abilities, and moved on when he realized that he wasn't going to make the grade --in the national sense! He is also a great guy too.

I don't have that killer competitive instinct myself.

At some point when I was flying beginner (at the same time as my friend), I decided I was going to learn the full pattern. So that year I still flew beginner---with my beginner "steed" (a Brodak Lightning Streak with LA25--a great setup for beginner), and with a couple of sacrificial planes (a Sig Acromaster with FP10 and a Ukey 35 with another LA25, and a lot of 5 minute epoxy) I learned the pattern and went into Intermediate. I claim my major motivations was to stop getting beat by the young kids coming into beginner (and then later, Intermediate), but now (in Advanced)  I have given up trying to avoid that  ! I've maxed out.

[Phil Coopy]

Dunno about that sandbagging thing, because for me I'd rather have a third in advanced than a first in intermediate. My goal right now is to be able to enter advanced.

Phil

[David Shad]

I have flown twice in Intermediate now...but am thinking about just flying with
the Advanced guys...I am getting scores in the 395 range but at least here
in the Southeast most of the flyers are in Advanced or Expert.   I can do the
whole pattern comfortably now and I need to be challenged which in turn makes
me practice more and fly better.  I know it's not written but the traditional rule
down here is three wins in a class and they "boot" you up to the next level.

[John Ashford]

Hey Paul.

You've raised and interesting  point which has been discussed from time to time.  There really is no answer because, as a lot of people have pointed out, the judging isn't the same nation wide.  Scores (as in numbers) don't mean a thing.  They only count for that contest on that day with those judges.

I have flown Intermediate ever since I got back into this in '99.  I don't have any desire to be a NATs champion or the "fire in my belly" that I did when I was thirty years old.  I do have a love and fire for building and designing and that is where I spend my time.

Last year here in D-8 I entered 6-8 contests as a PA-I pilot. I believe the most entries were eight at any one contest. I won one, a couple of seconds and thirds and placed out of the money in the rest of them.  This year I went to Brodaks with 40+ entrants in PA-I and pretty well dominated that class.  First in PA, Classic, and had the single highest score in P-40. I finished at the bottom because of combined scores for two rounds and I blew a plug on my first flight in P-40.  I've only entered one other contest this year but I moved up and flew advanced because I felt it was time for me.  I may be a bottom feeder from now on but trophies are not why I go to contests.  I go to fly my best, drink a beer or two with the guys, lie a lot, flirt with the women and have a good time.

As far as "sandbagging", I only know of one or two guys who (in my opinion) are guilty of this.  That's their problem not mine.  It is a very personal choice as to the class you fly and there are many factors and circumstances which go into making that decision. If you are happy or comfortable with where you are then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

Later, John

[Jim Thomerson]

I got second in Beginner at my first stunt contest in 1978.  In those days Beginners flew the full pattern.  I have no recollection of when I moved up to Intermediate or Advanced.  But now I am mid-level Advanced flier and doing mostly OTS.  So no problem. 

[Randy Powell]

>>I feel like the only person I'm really competing with, is myself.<<

Alan,

Well, that's really it. At local contest there are the high rollers like Paul and Howard (and Ted and Brett, et al in others) that are really in a class by themselves even if it is Expert. The rest of us really compete against ourselves and others in the lower end. If I place well against guys that are of similar skill, I feel pretty good. When we go to the Regionals with some of the best pilots there are, I have felt pretty good when I've managed to make the top 12 or so (has happened all of twice). I won one contest as an Expert (over the past 10 years) and that was only because it was a low turnout, I had a really great day and Paul and Howard were judging, not flying. But that's OK with me. I fly against myself. If I feel I am getting better and put in the best performance I could, I'm pretty happy regardless of the placing.

[Curtis Shipp]

Hey Root. I have never won a contest. I moved myself up to advanced to fly with the guys that are a lot better then me. Do not worry about moving up. Just worry about learning the pattern. Look at the book for pattern shape and do the shape up high. After you can do the shape you can start to bring it down. When you are watching tv or driving, fly the pattern in your head and you can do the hand movements at a slow pace. That is how I learned. When you do inverted put your thumb on top of the handle and push your thumb in emergencies like a panic button.

 
 

[Matt Colan]

Hi Paul,

Up here in the Northeast, typically it is 3 first places and then you get booted up.  In beginner, I won twice and was booted up, well I was going to start learning the full pattern after that contest, but I was astounded I got booted up.  In intermediate I won once and moved myself up after deciding not to fly against myself.  I've been in advanced since Brodak and am enjoying the competition since I now actually have to fly in order to get a high score and a higher placing.  Next year, I gotta beat Neal Beekman who came from behind twice and got me twice.  Wait until next year Neal!!!!

and typically, the crowd will tell you when to move up, the louder the screams are to move up, then the more likely you should move up.  See you at Brodak paul

[Brian Massey]

I recently flew Intermediate at the Golden State Championships. Out of 9 contestants, I placed 7th. I have just relearned the pattern, and was surprised that I lost what I figured was a "lock" on last place. I heard grumblings about some pilots who should move up to advanced; that did not bother me. I will probably fly only one or two more contests before the next GSC, but I'm already looking forward to moving up to advanced if my skills warrant the move. At that level I will have to push myself, and that's OK. If I stay in intermediate, my goal will be to beat the "sandbaggers; if I don't, then I need to practice more (or build better airplanes  )

As for the issue of "real" sandbaggers, I think a CD should have the ability to boot someone up a level if they have consistently won or placed in a given level. Over the years I've been to and chaired a lot of car shows, and for major shows I always had a "protest" period prior . If someone was in your class that you didn't think belonged there, you could notify the head judge in writing; the HJ then had the authority to evaluate and do what he or she decided was proper. (There was one guy with a restored pickup that always entered "under-construction". The truck was beautiful, just left in a pink primer so it "wasn't done". After a few years, shows started refusing to accept his entry, it made him mad, but a lot of others happy.) I know that would upset some, as "some" want the placing and trophy. At the same time, it's not fair, and somewhat discouraging to someone who moves up to a new class and finds they are competing against pilots who should themselves move to the next higher level.

Brian

[Bill Little]

Since I started flying in contests and Skill Classes came along, I have wanted to fly Expert.  I feel I was on the way a while back, but a job change forced about a 4 year lay-off from doing much flying, and no contests.  Since then, health issues among other things, have kept me from doing the practice I know is necessary.  So as time has passed, i have gotten worse at the pattern.  You either move up, or backwards, you never stand still.  Since the best I have done is a second and a third in Advanced, and now have fallen back, I am not on target to fly Expert.  That is somewhat discouraging when I see a couple guys who are very capable of flying Expert and not being embarrassed, refusing to leave Advanced.

Flying CLPA is a part of life I really love.  I have a 34 year old son who flies (and was improving very well), but is back in school working on another degree, and his Masters.  Add two small children, and his flying time is virtually nil, and there is no one else who flies with in a 2 hour radius.  Flying with him is a real joy, a family thing we can do.  But, I have decided to get some things done this coming year, so maybe I will make it after all.  Winning?  It is nice, but not the real reason I fly CLPA.  I had a lot of success and fulfillment in the competitive arena through playing and coaching athletics for close to 50 years.   Flying CLPA is about doing the best I personally can and having a good time with some of the greatest people on the planet! 

As to the *sandbagging*, I really do feel that it is the personal problem of that pilot.  Most all of them DO know that they should move up.

Mongo

[Paul Taylor]

 Flying CLPA is about doing the best I personally can and having a good time with some of the greatest people on the planet! 



Mongo

Big Bill,
You hit the nail right on the head. It is about doing our best with some of the greatest folks.

It is just the sandbaggers suck some of the fun out of it for others.
When I see score boards for a class with scores like 380's, 390's low 400's and then see a 470's on the same sheet then something is wrong.

[Steve Helmick]

Part of the equation is how good is your health, and how good is your plane? Are you having health problems that are limiting your progress? Do you fly two events with the same plane?  Is your current plane holding you back, and is it likely that you'll be able to come up with a better one for next year?

I've been sufferin' with neck problems since early June, and finally found out why. Arthritis and bone spurs. Neither is likely to improve anytime soon, but I did move up to Advanced at the last contest for the year. In both contests and practise, often my first flight is my best flight, whether the Judges see it that way or not. I really wanted to hang back a little longer, so other club members and I could move up together, but Pete wasn't quite ready (having had engine run problems all Spring and Summer), and Dane flew too many different planes, IMO. I think one thing I had going in my favor was flying the same plane (a profile) in two events, on two successive days. Flying a Classic in both Classic and PA would have been an equally beneficial plot. Flying in front of judges is highly relevant, IMO.

Two observations I've made after many years of flying other events. Often, two buddies will compete with eachother. They'll typically place close together, but won't be at the top of the event. Their goal is too low. They need to try to win, not beat their buddy. Been there!  The other tendency is for a guy getting out of his area for the first time (or two), sometimes will fly "over his head"...much better than you'd expect....over achieving. It's the new challenge...and a bit of showing off...going for broke. Been there, too.   Luckily, I've overcome both these tendencies!  Steve 

[john e. holliday]

I can under stand about the back/neck pains.  Especially when it involves the legs/knees/hips.  I flew one flight at Neosho and I didn't get in what I thought was the groove until the square eights.  One of my better scores.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday

[Patrick Rowan]

Rootbeard,

Practice hard & leave the sandbaggers behind you.

[Larry Fulwider]

. . . When I see score boards for a class with scores like 380's, 390's low 400's and then see a 470's on the same sheet then something is wrong.

I believe I know the event, situation, and individual to which you are referring. That was an anamoly that "somewhat cleared itself up" later. Very, very, unusual!    I have not seen or heard of that sort of point spread (with a reasonable number of entries) at other contests. I doubt if you have either.

The more common situation is the individual who has too much pride to move down due to age,  physical limitations, or time constraints. My observation is that the most common flaw in dealing with classes is believing a "move up" is a permanent change in ability.

In our area, losing any of the Intermediates to Advanced would have to involve a trade for a couple of over-the-hill "Advanced" flyers for the Intermediate class to remain a viable class!

Larry Fulwider

[phil c]

One thing that is very discouraging is that the Intermediate class seems to be the largest in size of any other class. Anyway that does not do someone like me "a up and coming pilot" have to fly with guys putting up 450+ scores. I could be way out in left field, but I think 450+ should be in advance.

.....  That would force people to move up to the class where they belong........

How many (put your class here) First or Second place trophy's does someone need? Unless you are in the Top Class. Expert, World Champ, Bass Masters......
 

The rules about classes in the rulebook is pretty straight forward.  When you start you can pick your class.  When your scores for the previous season average up near the top of the class or higher(Intermediate 300-399, Advanced 400-499, Expert 500+) you move up.  It's interesting that the rules say nothing about placings in any contests.  Placing in a few contests should not be used as an excuse to require someone to fly in a higher class.

If someone loses some edge as they get older, the rules allow them to move down if they can convince the CD's they have a problem 

The "boot" happened to me and it aggravated me.  Given the amount of practice I do and the scores I was getting, I just opted to register in expert.  That way the real competitive experts can feel put upon if I score ahead of them.  I just fly for fun against myself, it's pretty easy to see all the mistakes from inside the circle.