Safety thongs in stunt

[Neal Thompson]

This a personal pet peeve. Why do we need a safety thong in stunt? I have been flying for almost 60 years and in all that time, I have never seen a competitor drop the handle of a stunt ship. And I am talking youngsters as young as 8 and geriatrics such as myself. Combat, sure. Speed, fencing is good idea. If it was a requirement for beginner, I would say OK, fine. Then, when a safety thong gets pull tested, it frosts my shorts. I understand that if you drop the handle, it is going to take force, but since it is on down line, in theory, the plane will crash in short order. Another peeve, what happens if you drop the handle and you are inverted? When does the plane crash? Does safety thong actually serve its purpose? I KNOW this has been through all sorts of committees, lawyers and insurance company meetings, but I think it is silly. If you really want to make it safe, devise a thong that binds handle to pilot's hand so he can't let go...

[Russell Bond]

I've seen it happen.
A guy tripped and fell over letting go of the handle as he landed. The plane flew quite a distance before it hit the ground.
What if it hit someone in doing so? Could easily kill someone.
Just get used to it and after a while it will be second nature to use the safety strap. (Same as seat belts in a car)

BTW, The older we get the more unsteady we become so the more likely it will happen. (The joys of age!)

[katana]

The likelihood of a dropped handle is remote but consider one that slips from the pilot using the lightest of fingertip grip or a hand contaminated with sweat / oil residue? What about a line breakage that jerks the handle free? All unlikely scenarios but no doubt have occurred some time. some where.

I choose to wear a crash helmet on my bike not because the Govt. says I have to, but because I value my melon still being functional whenever I have an immovable object / asphalt interface situation! Not if but when!

[Brett Buck]

This a personal pet peeve. Why do we need a safety thong in stunt? I have been flying for almost 60 years and in all that time, I have never seen a competitor drop the handle of a stunt ship. And I am talking youngsters as young as 8 and geriatrics such as myself. Combat, sure. Speed, fencing is good idea. If it was a requirement for beginner, I would say OK, fine. Then, when a safety thong gets pull tested, it frosts my shorts. I understand that if you drop the handle, it is going to take force, but since it is on down line, in theory, the plane will crash in short order. Another peeve, what happens if you drop the handle and you are inverted? When does the plane crash? Does safety thong actually serve its purpose? I KNOW this has been through all sorts of committees, lawyers and insurance company meetings, but I think it is silly. If you really want to make it safe, devise a thong that binds handle to pilot's hand so he can't let go...

    I have seen it multiple times, and also done it (once) myself a long time ago.  It's not common, but when the result is so significant and the mitigation essentially free, why take the chance?  If you have not seen a 35-sized stunt plane orbiting in the air swinging around, with the lines available to whipsaw anyone at random, or crash into someone, I can assure you it is not a comfortable moment.

    I have also seen the thong fail the pull test, usually at *far below* the rated pull or the pull test. Leather boot thongs are fine when brand new, after about 6 months- year, you can break it very easily.

     As far as I can tell, we have never had any lawyers or committees discuss it. I and most long-time pilots very strongly support the use of a safety thong, and I have yet to hear any real counter-argument. Most people who don't want to use one talk about "don't save me from myself". I actually fully agree with that sort of argument in general, and have opposed some things of that nature. I actually don't care whether someone's airplane crashes on the circle as long as it stays on the circle and away from everyone else. But, of course, this is not about saving someone from oneself, it's saving everyone else from your mistake.

 That's why we have a rule about restraining an electric when it is armed, but not about unassisted electric takeoffs. We know that once armed, the airplane can start on it's own, I got about 10 example cases in one evening when I asked about it, and have seen very similar things in other similar logic circuits for 36 years in other venues (all far more critical than a model airplane). The former can result in airplanes running amok at full power in the pits or off the side of the circle. The latter can easily result in the airplane turning in on you before it starts up, flying across the circle, hitting the pilot, or any number of other problems, all catastrophic to the airplane at least and maybe to the pilot. But no one is making a rule about that, because it really is "saving someone (or their airplane) from themselves".

   Your own reasoning is more-or-less null - you don't think it happens, swell, but the rest of us know it does. You offer no reason why it is difficult, costly, or dangerous to use a thong, because you know it isn't. Even if we had no examples at all, I would still want to do it, because it's an obvious failure mode (to the point even completely uninitiated spectators frequently ask "what happens if you let go....).  So aside from "frosting" you for reasons unexplained, what is the real objection?  I think people would be happy to listen, if it in some way impedes or obstructs something, or imposes undue burden in some way, it can go away again.

    Brett

p..s. I would also note that you mention combat- they were the last to have to use a thong, because they actually *did* have a valid counter-argument - that they have to sometime switch handles to get out of line tangles. Same with racing. But, eventually, people decided that it was a better idea to use a thong and take the chance on unresolvable tangles than to live with flyaways.

[Brent Williams]

It's pure negligence and ignorant complacency to operate these planes without a safety strap on the handle.

To illustrate, I watched my dad, 73 years old at the time, stumble on a sprinkler head at the park, fall over backwards and let go of the handle(sans strap...), thus releasing my neat norvel 061 stunter to fly off into the trees.  This could have been a catastrophic event if the plane had flown into the faces of my very young children who were standing outside the circle watching grandpa.  I shudder to think about the what-ifs. 

(Unfortunately, my dad has not and will not accept my continual invitations to fly, as this event rattled him badly.  I would dearly love for him to finally fly a modern stuntship, as he flew only sterling ringmasters, yak9, crap, ect.  He'll never know how nice a good plane feels in the air.  This was his first flight from 20+ years of inactivity...and his last)

[john e. holliday]

I have witnesses to why a safety thong is great to be used.  I always prided my self for having a good grip on a handle.  Fly rat racer and navy carrier planes ay full tilt.  I tried to fly my Nobler at a Tulsa meet in the first round my engine that had been so reliable gave me fits.   So I spent time trying to figure out what was wrong.   Second round engine started easily and sounded good.   Pulled into the reverse wingover and was good until I turned to go over the top to level flight,  except it didn't go up.   It turned me about head high and I pulled my arm knowing what might happen when it got to the end of the lines.   Yes I relaxed my arm but tensed up my grip, I thought.   When the Nobler hit the end of the lines the on board wing was destroyed.  The lines did not break and bell crank mount held, but the handle was snatched from my grip.   Yes the wrist was sore for several days, but no one got hurt except my pride.   Pulled the engine and left the plane with De Hill to do what ever he wanted to do to it.   

Now an exception is when I training a new flyer/pilot.   As they will not be doing any thing but level laps after take off and landing I don't use a thong so I can take control when the individual gets dizzy.    Once they learn to take off, level laps and with out help then I make them use the safety thong.   That is when I start having them do climbs and dive.   I am sold on the safety thong even though I thought it would be disastrous in the multi plane events.   

[Dan Berry]

Sooooo…… the safety thong is a terrible nuisance and deal-breaker?
Huh.

[EddyR]

Common in the 1950’s. Most did not crash but flew up in s large circle until the motor stopped. Then they spiraled down. Most didn’t do much damage to the plane.
Ed

[Brett Buck]

Common in the 1950’s. Most did not crash but flew up in s large circle until the motor stopped. Then they spiraled down. Most didn’t do much damage to the plane.
Ed

  Right, it sort of orbits around the CG with the airplane going in a tight circle and the handle swinging around in a large circle, and it can stay up a while. I am more concerned about the lines whipping around than getting hit with the airplane.  I have seen the results of having the lines saw through skin. The only thing that stops it is bone, it very easily slices through soft tissue like a cheese cutter. The airplane is a lot easier to dodge, too.

     Brett

[Tony Drago]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=436&v=T0c80FJrj3w


Skip ahead to 7:05

Right on.
  Also it would not be a laughing matter if that RingMaster was to hit someone.
 One should not act irresponsible. But think of safety for them selves as well as others.. Fly Safely.....

[Ken Culbertson]

I can find fault with a lot of rules but certainly not this one.  I use the thing when it is just me and my stooge and there is no one even close.  I have seen two stunters and about a half dozen combat ships go free flight.  I have lost the handle twice.  In both cases the plane crashed immediately so no one was hurt and in one case it could  have saved the plane.  I got hit by static electricity using an old hot rock.  No storms in the area either.  I was overhead and I might have been able to regain control if I had a thong. 

I prefer to call it a safety lanyard.  I imagine the ladies coming into the sport find it insulting when they are first told they have to use a thong when they fly.

Ken

[Brett Buck]

I prefer to call it a safety lanyard.  I imagine the ladies coming into the sport find it insulting when they are first told they have to use a thong when they fly.

   I volunteer to randomly check compliance on that one.

    Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

When the "Safety Thong" rule was first legislated into "Stunt" I also thought it was "Stupid" and often continued to fly with out one, except in competition. 

Since I seem to have a strong tendency toward always winding up being the "poster boy" for "Stupid" whenever I adopt an attitude like that, it didn't take me very long to wind up with a handle that slipped out of my hand during a flight on a very large stunter with an ST60 roaring along in the front of the fuselage! 

Fortunately the only thing destroyed was the prop, the lines that drug across the grass and hooked on the bumper of a friends car, and my ego!

Needless to say...I went home and immediately made a lot of "safety thongs" and put one on each of my handles and several in my pit box.

I may, at times, be stupid but I can learn! 

Randy Cuberly

[Steve Thompson]

With no wrist strap:

A guy I know had his Twister with a Fox 40 cut out in the overhead 8.  Engine came back full power and when the slack was taken up, it ripped the handle out of his hand.  It did a beautiful knife edge arc trailing 60' of 015 lines with handle and hit in the middle of the adjacent river, maybe 300 yards away.  Fishermen brought it back with the lines all wrapped around the wings.  The plane and engine went on to fly again.

If the plane went the other direction, it would have crashed in downtown.

He never flew without a strap after that.

[peabody]

Neal...are you related to Frank Williams? Every rules cycle after thongs were required for Stunt, Frank would write a Rules Change Proposal asking that the rule be rescinded.

The bottom line is that the Academy is highly unlikely to take a step BACKWARDS concerning safety.

Have fun

[WR Crane aka MrClean]

When I was a kid it was mid 60s before we owned a car with seat belts.  SEAT BELTS!!!  HA, they were in there, tucked under the cushion somewhere.  And that's where they were all the way up till 1983 when I took my first Sailplane ride.  oh they strap you in real good there and you need to be.  On the way home with my buddy we made it about 10-15 minutes and finally pulled over.  Something ain't right we agreed, then realized the problem, dug the belts out of the seats and I've worn them ever since.

Do you NEED them?  Do you NEED a fire extinguisher?  Not until you need them.  Then it's too late.

[Paul Walker]

   I volunteer to randomly check compliance on that one.

    Brett

RANDOMLY.....really Brett.  Where is your concern for safety.
You should check EVERY ONE of those ladies!!

[frank williams]

2019-2020 CL General   “…strong enough to prevent accidental release of the model, shall be worn during all flights of Control Line events except all Racing events.”

No, Rich, I don’t think Neal is a long lost relation, though we both apparently share misgivings about the safety thong rule. 

I’ve seen it happen!  It could be a problem!

At the time the “safety thong rule for all” was initially proposed, there were no infamous incidences of stunt planes in contests being released and causing harm.  Sure we’ve all heard of the flyaway combat ship, or the sport flyer “letgo”, but stuntships in a contest situation being released?  None that I knew of.  Was this something that came down from AMA HQ?, I don’t think so, or something from the Controlline Contest Board?, maybe.  There was nothing in the news, AMA or PAMPA about handle release problems.  Maybe at that time there was a Nats racing incident where one flyer tripped and fell (not sure if he let go of the handle).  However, a rule proposal was submitted for safety thongs for all Controlline events. 

We had read about in past times of the stunt contestant who had heroically stuffed his plane when a child wandered into the circle at the Nats.  Some of my relatives came to see the Nats one year and unknowingly walked through the pits, tangling the 5 and 7 year olds tennis shoes into Bob Gieske’s lines.  It really wasn’t their fault so much, they had never seen a controlline contest before. 
Lines? Lions? There was no marker or barrier or roped off pit area.  How were they to know? 

Or the Indiana Nats where the circles drooped about five feet off the pavement into the grass and people walking from one circle to the other had to know to look or be beheaded.

When the Nats were at airbases, it always seemed that with just a little bit of planning could have resulted in a safer and more controlled event.  My gosh, our local contests, with far fewer people involved as spectators, organizers, and contestants were better prepared for potentially dangerous contingencies.

What does that have to do with safety thongs, you ask?  I agree that it is kind of a “left handed” argument to blame AMA for short comings in the area of safety against a ”safety rule” imposed on contest stunt flyers.  But if we are going to make the contest environment totally safe, then there are a bunch of things that should be done first.  If there is such a need to guard against the possibility of a contestant releasing the handle of his plane, then there are a lot of places where public safety could be addressed that I feel are more obvious and blatant.

At any rate, the proposal was submitted.  At the time I thought it was improperly submitted, but that’s another story and I was wrong.  There was no mention of it in Stunt News that I saw.  I thought that it had not been seen by any PAMPA officers.  I was wrong about that too.  It had been seen by PAMPA and on the face of it PAMPA approved of it’s submittal.  I’m sure the PAMPA district directors knew of the proposal, but at least in my district the word didn’t get out.  As I found out it had been submitted to a vote of the district directors and I don’t think was a unanimous yea, most didn't vote.  But, like I said, word of it didn’t necessarily get to the masses.

A cross proposal was submitted to provide relief for racing.  I blame myself for not standing up at the time and calling for a public airing of the case “for and against” safety thongs in stunt, because by that time I did know something was happening.  I wish I had, I sort of blame myself for the thong rule getting through.  I’ve many times felt that we (PAMPA) need do a better job of getting important issues out for public review.  But, as Rich said, I did try (and failed) to get it removed from stunt.

The safety thong rule did precipitate a couple of other rule changes.  Come to find out, it takes time to put the safety thong on the wrist.  At the time we had a “bonus 5 points” for starting and takeoff within one minute.  Well this was a problem now.  A couple of prominent flyers incurred some “hand in the prop” accidents, purportedly due to rushing to get the engine started and to the handle in time.  This required an emergency proposal, as I recall, in order to deal with this unintended consequence.

I’m sure that if I wore a football helmet when I drove, that I’d be safer and less likely to incur a head injury in case of an accident.  There’s nothing stopping me from doing that, but that’s like the seat belt argument, I’m protecting myself.  True the safety thong is protecting other people from me.  But I just don’t think we had a problem, racing lobbyists were effective and stunt and combat didn’t even try to avoid the rule change.

Shall we safetywire the motor to the bellcrank?  I’ve seen it happen!  I threw a brand new $200 Plettenberg right out of the plane and onto the edge of the circle, by gosh, if anyone had been standing there it could have put their eye out.

[Brett Buck]

RANDOMLY.....really Brett.  Where is your concern for safety.
You should check EVERY ONE of those ladies!!

  Uh, I think I would prefer to check only selected individuals. I watch the TLC channel occasionally...

   Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

RANDOMLY.....really Brett.  Where is your concern for safety.
You should check EVERY ONE of those ladies!!

While I can see and appreciate your concern for safety Paul, there is the simple fact that there are some that you are NOT going to want to inspect.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[bob whitney]

the ONE good thing I have seen with the THONG is that it gives the E flyers time to remember Not to put their handle down until someone has a hold of their plane and dis arms it

[TigreST]

This
Was lifted from the “Amazing Stories” thread. Copy and paste follows.

Paste start


Chuck finally finished the Skylark and brought it out to the school yard. I remember being amazed at how large it was with only a Fox -35 in the nose. It was finished in all black in keeping with Chucks semi-quick build and finish techniques.  It filled the back of his Plymouth Volare station wagon. (Chuck was married and had a couple young ones too).  Normal was for the adult members to simply drive right out onto/into the school yard and pull up and park 10 or 20 feet from the pit area.  So on this particular afternoon that is exactly the way things were, cars all lined up in a row.  Chuck fired the engine on the Skylark and I let it go at the drop of his hand.  The model seemed to labor as it slowly rolled along the rough grass before finally getting airborne.  Chuck, I'd have to say, was the best pilot (other than the Capt) that I'd ever seen, because he could do inside and outside loops and fly inverted (something I could not do yet).  So with the new bird airborne and making very slow laps Chuck went into his normal stunt routine, seemingly undaunted by the rather lack luster airspeed of the Skylark.  I forget if it was at the top of a wing-over or the top of a inside loop or the recovery from inverted where it happened but...at some point the lines went totally slack and the Skylark was making tracks across the circle with the lines basically dragging on the ground.  Chuck did his best to simply run in the opposite direction in a lame attempt to get the slack out of the lines. The Skylark may have been about 25 feet off the ground as it cut the circle in two,..they , the plane and Chuck, passed each other near the mid point of the circle.   He held the handle behind his right shoulder (as you might when running to get a kite airborne) and ran full tilt for the other side of the circle never once looking at the plane.  So at one point they are both getting closer to each other , pilot and plane, and the next moment they are moving away from each other in opposite directions.  I remember the beginning of a cringe as I was thinking on what was about to happen. Visions of the control system being torn out of the plane as the lines suddenly went tight.  Well nope, the controls never got ripped out of the plane, nope, far from it.  The handle got ripped out of Chucks hand instead!  Because he had full "up" dialed in as he ran, when the lines went tight, the Skylark actually pulled out of it's diving arch and aimed skyward. It was at this critical juncture that the handle was snatched from Chucks grip (no lanyard in use, "what the heck is that?").  When he lost the handle Chuck turned and stared as the Skylark began a beautiful climb out back to altitude tracking the normal flight circle again, the handle bouncing along the ground and then airborne at five or six feet high, then another bounce off the ground and another six feet into the air would go the handle.  In the pits we all watched and then ran as the Skylark tracked towards the pits and our other planes on the ground and the cars parked behind us.  What to save?..the cars or the planes?  Well the Skylark gracefully arch over the pits and the cars at about 20 feet high with the handle and lines bouncing now and again off the ground.  It did approximately a complete lap of the circle and then just about landed with only a slight bump which killed the motor and broke a prop.  Nice airplanes them Skylarks.!  I never saw the plane again after that.  Not sure what happened to these guys we flew with.   

Paste ends

When I returned to c/l all my own self made handles had lanyards installed.

[Paul Walker]

  Uh, I think I would prefer to check only selected individuals. I watch the TLC channel occasionally...

   Brett

TLC.....ugh....

[TigreST]

What’s not to like about a stunt safety thong?

[Steve Thompson]

I don't understand.  Which part attaches to the handle?

[TigreST]

Steve,
If you were to look closely at the rear of the thong you would have noticed a small metallic clasp or two that ….?.....wait a minute?  Sorry, I've confused the safety throng with the stunt safety chest harness.

[Neal Thompson]

There has certainly been a strong response to my remarks and I do appreciate the thoughtful remarks. I have been using a thong since the rule was first initiated and continue to do so in competition and in practice. Having said that, I will say that I have had brand new thong snapped by a pull test. So that set me thinking. I will also say that I have never had any of the experiences described here. Yes, I have been around the circle. I have my war stories as well. I have dodged a few combat ships, not to mention R.C. airplanes and done my share of adjusting a needle valve through a spinning prop. But I have never had a plane jerked from my hand. I even had a line snag on an especially tall weed to the point that the plane took a left turn and crossed the middle of the circle. I held the handle when it reached the far side and managed to save both plane and myself. I still think that the better solution is a thong that would prevent the pilot from letting go. But maybe that is not possible.

[Dan McEntee]

    The only thing I would offer to the discussion is the length of the said thong or lanyard. I see lots of guys with them fairly short, where it's kind of hard to slip your hand in and then grab the handle. Over the years i have settled in on using some good, strong nylon boot laces for my handles thongs, and recently discovered parachute chord. I make them up long enough for some slack to hang below my wrist, and encourage others to make them long enough to easily slip over their wrist and hand, in the case that you need some one to take over control of the airplane! I have heard stories of side cutters being used to cut thongs off while in flight, but that can take considerable steady hands and good aim at a moving target. I had to try and take over control of a speed model from a club member once when he suddenly got dizzy and it didn't seem like the tank was going to run dry any time soon, and his thing was pretty short and snug. We tried for a lap or two to slip it over his wrist and handle but there wasn't enough slack and we both went down pretty hard. The model crashed but was repairable, and we were both a bit sore. Leaving a bit of slack in the chord will make sure it doesn't hinder your wrist movement while flying either. Just my two pennies worth.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[TigreST]

All kidding aside.  The material pictured above attached to my handle is a braided  nylon or polycord dog-leash choker which is attached to the handle via a large nylon tie-wrap strap.  The metal rings offer a very robust connection and I think the tie-wrap is up to the task.  Very easy on and off with the choker slip ring system. I'll assume that when the handle is let loose the choker would tighten as per normal and there you are..model restrained from a fly-a-way.  I never want to put it to that test mind you.  Comfortable too, for the most part.  I never put one to the pull test though, so perhaps some testing is in order. I found these at Pet Smart for a couple bucks each...seems to be the ticket for my sport flier needs. 

T.

[Steve Helmick]

Have seen a bunch of folks show up at contests with "safety thongs" that did NOT have a slipping loop (aka "noose") to grip the wrist if handle was to escape from the hand. Some with a simple loop tied to the handle, that they want to just wrap around the wrist. I 'splain that it must have a slip loop to be legal, and suggest that they read the rule book. Some argue, which doesn't help their situation at all. BS is BS.     Steve

[bob whitney]

weed eater starter pull cord from home depot or ace hardware works good. thin and very strong also cheap, by the ft