Rules Proposals

[john e. holliday]

Just got my notice from AMA about the rules proposals and preliminary votes.  Looks like almost every thing has passed the preliminary vote, but short time or final vote to be in.    I put this here as it pertains to most f our control line flying.   Do not remember seeing any of this in the separate catagories.    

Go to modelaircraft.org .

[Carl Cisneros]

Doc

voted this evening while at work.

Carl

[Dennis Toth]

Doc,
What is the proposed rule change you speak of?

Best,   DennisT

[john e. holliday]

Go to the AMA site and look.   

[Will Davis]

I see where a rules proposal was voted on and passed , the initial date was 2017. Is this the one voted on this week , 

 The new AMA web site is nice , but I have not navigated around on it much.

[Scott Richlen]

synthetic lines

[mike londke]

For Combat there was a proposal to officially retire "slow combat" and replace it with Speed Limit as an official event.

[Ken Culbertson]

synthetic lines

Looks like it paassed by a thread and it only took me 15 min to find it on the AMA website!

Ken

[dale gleason]

Removed my post.  I thought I had something to offer, but, now I'm not sure.  Just wait and see.

dg

[Brett Buck]

It may not be final yet.  I put in a rules proposal years ago and it was voted 6 to 5 FOR my proposal, but, it failed. It required at least 7 for votes to pass. Next cycle it passed, but, by then, it was someone else's proposal received the needed amount of votes.
So far, I'm unable to find the voting rules, maybe someone else can give it a shot.(Brett)\

   I really wouldn't know where to begin, I would ask Keith Trostle...


    Brett

[dale gleason]

This is a Keith required answer, true.

dg

[Brent Williams]

https://modelaircraft.org/control-line-aerobatics

Spectra Lines:  2019-20 Proposals
A: https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/files/CLA19-01.pdf
B: https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/files/CLA19-02.pdf

Initial Voting results:  https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Comp/2018%20CL%20Aerobatics%20Initial%20Vote.pdf
                     

[Trostle]

https://modelaircraft.org/control-line-aerobatics

Spectra Lines:  2019-20 Proposals
A: https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/files/CLA19-01.pdf
B: https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/files/CLA19-02.pdf

Initial Voting results:  https://modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/Comp/2018%20CL%20Aerobatics%20Initial%20Vote.pdf
                   

There is one proposal during this cycle to change our CLPA rules.  CLA19-02 modified the basic proposal CLA19-01 to allow the use of Spectra lines in our CLPA event.  CLA19-02 passed the initial vote by the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board (CLACB) which was completed on May 1, 2018.  The final vote for this proposal is ongoing at this time, to be completed by the CLACB by September 15.  For a proposal to pass the final vote, it must receive 60% of those Board members who indicate a preference.  So stand by for the final vote results which will be posted on the AMA site after September 15.

Keith Trostle
Chairman
Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board

[Brett Buck]

There is one proposal during this cycle to change our CLPA rules.  CLA19-02 modified the basic proposal CLA19-01 to allow the use of Spectra lines in our CLPA event.  CLA19-02 passed the initial vote by the Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board (CLACB) which was completed on May 1, 2018.  The final vote for this proposal is ongoing at this time, to be completed by the CLACB by September 15.  For a proposal to pass the final vote, it must receive 60% of those Board members who indicate a preference.  So stand by for the final vote results which will be posted on the AMA site after September 15.

Keith Trostle
Chairman
Control Line Aerobatics Contest Board

   So, not to be negative, but how are we going to distinguish between the "real" acceptable brands and the many copycat products? They are getting very good at counterfeiting stuff like this, and anyone can copy a label and box.

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

   So, not to be negative, but how are we going to distinguish between the "real" acceptable brands and the many copycat products? They are getting very good at counterfeiting stuff like this, and anyone can copy a label and box.

     Brett

Short answer - you can't.  If these lines are truly that much better then why the 6-5 vote?  Should have been 11-0.

Ken

[Brent Williams]

Isn't this line material proposal basically akin to the recent line diameter and material arguments?  ie, 4-strand Russian vs 7,9,19-stand stainless vs solid.  After dropping the engine size association, isn't the basic consensus to pull test them.  If they pass at the prescribed weight limit, then happy day, use what you like.

The spectra lines seem to be a up against a wall of mystery and pre-conceived notions and in my view, some prejudice. 
Seems like all of the line materials, including spectra, have the potential for failure from use, misuse, kinks, snags and poor terminations. 

The issue of spectra line termination knots and/or hard points are one area of concern.

Regarding counterfeit lines, that's going to have to be an ongoing issue of educating the consumer on the risks associated with unbranded or fake materials.  Buy only from reputable sources.

Any thoughts?

[dale gleason]

Thank you, Keith, we appreciate you help.

dale g

[mike londke]

Short answer - you can't.  If these lines are truly that much better then why the 6-5 vote?  Should have been 11-0.

Ken

I cannot speak to them being better for Stunt but I can tell you, without a doubt they are better for Combat. I've used them for years and like many others will never go back to steel lines. There is no reason not to allow them. Some guys just have it in their head that "plastic" lines are bad and won't give them a fair shake. There are still hold-outs in the Combat world but I promise you, every guy who has tried them is still using them today. As far as not buying knock-offs, just use a US based retailer. Cabela's and Bass Pro carry every iteration of Spectra line. Steer clear of Ebay "deals".

[Brett Buck]

Isn't this line material proposal basically akin to the recent line diameter and material arguments?  ie, 4-strand Russian vs 7,9,19-stand stainless vs solid.  After dropping the engine size association, isn't the basic consensus to pull test them.  If they pass at the prescribed weight limit, then happy day, use what you like.

The spectra lines seem to be a up against a wall of mystery and pre-conceived notions and in my view, some prejudice. 
Seems like all of the line materials, including spectra, have the potential for failure from use, misuse, kinks, snags and poor terminations. 

The issue of spectra line termination knots and/or hard points are one area of concern.

Regarding counterfeit lines, that's going to have to be an ongoing issue of educating the consumer on the risks associated with unbranded or fake materials.  Buy only from reputable sources.

Any thoughts?

    I am just a bit concerned that we are caring about the manufacturer and are willing to disallow them based on purchasing records. I think as before, if it passes the pull test, it's OK, and it doesn't matter whether it is real or counterfeit. Tom Hampshire submitted this one, and he usually has a good reason do as he does, so I would like to hear the reasoning. But this sounds like more like something more like something the combat guys would write, which just makes it a really complicated mess. If someone loses their receipt, are they disallowed? You get 3000 feet of the stuff, are you going to carry your Amazon.com receipt around for the next 30 years?

   Buying from reputable sources doesn't really help. We buy electronic components from reliable sources, and still have to do a bunch of screening to get rid of the counterfeit products.

    I don't really care about allowing them or not, I think it's premature since not many people and as far as I know, none of the acknowledged engineering experts have even looked at them from a stunt perspective and I am unaware of any engineering work at all on this material by anyone. I could have missed it, of course. It will be interesting to see if the drag and compliance is acceptable. The one person I know who tried flying with them on a stunt plane found them to be far too compliant, but I don't know the conditions or situation.

     Brett

[mike londke]

Good or bad, there is nothing in the Combat rules that require you to maintain the original packaging and receipt. The CD could at any time measure lines though. I've never seen it done, not once at a contest.

[Brett Buck]

Good or bad, there is nothing in the Combat rules that require you to maintain the original packaging and receipt. The CD could at any time measure lines though. I've never seen it done, not once at a contest.

   So what is the point of having a rule about it? I am not trying to be a wise guy, but normally you want rules to be of some value. If no one is checking, there's no point in making a rule about it, it's just noise that is best left out. Or is it to play "gotcha" after it breaks or fails, or the wrong person loses?  Nor do we check that the solids are from Jersey Strand and Cable.

   We check SS line diameters fairly frequently. But we do not require ASTM spring steel wire - because if nothing else, it's not possible to test it or check it.

    Brett

[Paul Walker]

   So what is the point of having a rule about it? I am not trying to be a wise guy, but normally you want rules to be of some value. If no one is checking, there's no point in making a rule about it, it's just noise that is best left out. Or is it to play "gotcha" after it breaks or fails, or the wrong person loses?  Nor do we check that the solids are from Jersey Strand and Cable.

   We check SS line diameters fairly frequently. But we do not require ASTM spring steel wire - because if nothing else, it's not possible to test it or check it.

    Brett

Brett, you are a bad man!!!!!

This is exactly my position. A rule needs to be enforcable. This one is NOT. Somehow, it still got this far.

Why the AMA would even allow it to go this far is beyond me.


My gripe is not against synthetic lines. It is about how to write a rule!!

[john e. holliday]

What really perturbs me is that I did not know of any of rule proposals until the notice from the AMA.  I know I don't compete like I used to but have tried to stay on top of things.  That is why I was a member of the aerobatic rules board I had a list of people I would send E-Mails too and also making posts on the different forums.  Usually got responses from people from out side my district at the time.  No matter how I felt about a proposal I would vote according to the responses I got.  But, that was me.

[mike londke]

   So what is the point of having a rule about it? I am not trying to be a wise guy, but normally you want rules to be of some value. If no one is checking, there's no point in making a rule about it, it's just noise that is best left out. Or is it to play "gotcha" after it breaks or fails, or the wrong person loses?  Nor do we check that the solids are from Jersey Strand and Cable.

   We check SS line diameters fairly frequently. But we do not require ASTM spring steel wire - because if nothing else, it's not possible to test it or check it.

    Brett

Brett I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, or that I agree with how the rules are written and enforced. I’m only sharing my experience with Spectra line and it’s use in combat events. I thought maybe you Stunt guys would like to hear from people that actually use the stuff. Peace out.

[Brett Buck]

This is exactly my position. A rule needs to be enforcable. This one is NOT. Somehow, it still got this far.

Why the AMA would even allow it to go this far is beyond me.


My gripe is not against synthetic lines. It is about how to write a rule!!

   I have no complaint with these lines, either (having only recently acquired some - possibly legal and possibly not, by the pseudo-standards of the proposal) but I certainly would never tie a rule to a particular set of manufacturers and treat that like traceability to some "standard", when there are no real records or tracing possible, and no testing to speak of to generate our own standard. People hanging on to a receipt  and/or the original packaging certainly doesn't constitute a record.

   How are we supposed to use the original packaging or receipt  - does the CD look at it and decree it real or fake? And in any case, do we also want to trace batch numbers or production runs? They change the materials and processes *all the time* depending on what the cost is. What triggers an inspection of the "records" - a protest? A failure, and after a failure, you find the original box top has fallen off, is your insurance invalidated or are you DQ'ed?

   Traceability and establishment of standards is a non-trivial process, it's why you get $400 hammers and $900 toilet seats - the product costs $15, and the establishment of maintenance of records cost $885 dollars.

   If you actually want standards, you have to generate them yourself, like the NAR. Engine performance is critical to rocketry competition, and the NAR does not take the manufacturer's word for it on the performance, they test each and every engine, multiple examples, to establish the performance, and maintain the records. It's called NAR Standards and Testing, people are out testing engines in test stands.

  It's long past time we just remove anything about materials or dimensions and accept the pull test as sufficient.

   As noted,  Tom Hampshire is a pretty sharp guy and I presume that he has good reasoning behind this, but just looking at it, is is not obvious what it might be.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

Brett I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, or that I agree with how the rules are written and enforced. I’m only sharing my experience with Spectra line and it’s use in combat events. I thought maybe you Stunt guys would like to hear from people that actually use the stuff. Peace out.

  I am not upset about it, so no issue, information is better than not - but we definitely do check things like this already, pretty often, as spot-checks. I am just curious what we propose to do with this information, and why it matters to the results.

    Brett

[Bob Hunt]

Quote from Brett: "It's long past time we just remove anything about materials or dimensions and accept the pull test as sufficient."

Whoo boy, do I agree with this! The General rules allow the Spectra lines, the combat guys have been using them for, what, 6 years now? It's time to allow them in Stunt... But, it probably won't happen in this rules cycle; I'll bet a bunch that we didn't get the necessary 60%. I voted to allow them...

Bob Hunt 

[Ken Culbertson]

   I have no complaint with these lines, either (having only recently acquired some - possibly legal and possibly not, by the pseudo-standards of the proposal).....
     Brett

I am very interested in any feedback from expert stunt fliers trying these lines.  Sounds like they may be similar to the brass in effect overhead.  When you try things you actually observe what happens so I value your opinion.

 If you want to know why the "manufacturer" requirement just follow the money....AMA Insurance.  One of these heavy .75 powered behemoths snap the lines and kill a judge.  Turns out to be counterfeit lines and the AMA Insurance says - You're NOT Covered!  So what if the Spectra lines are stronger than steel and it passed the pull test, if they don't have the right petagree, You're NOT Covered.

[Brett Buck]

Quote from Brett: "It's long past time we just remove anything about materials or dimensions and accept the pull test as sufficient."

Whoo boy, do I agree with this! The General rules allow the Spectra lines, the combat guys have been using them for, what, 6 years now? It's time to allow them in Stunt... But, it probably won't happen in this rules cycle; I'll bet a bunch that we didn't get the necessary 60%. I voted to allow them...

  Whether not to allow Spectra lines is one issue, whether this bit about requiring specific manufacturers and "documentation" is another. The latter is where the issue hangs up. I would not vote for it, if I was a voting member, just because of that.

     Brett

[peabody]

Seems folly to me that there is push back on these....
But the whole line size rule seems folly....
We apparently have widespread acceptance of lines that are, by the manufacturers admission, undersized

[Brett Buck]

Seems folly to me that there is push back on these....
But the whole line size rule seems folly....
We apparently have widespread acceptance of lines that are, by the manufacturers admission, undersized

  What the heck are you talking about now? I measure my lines, they are the specified size to the degree of accuracy of the device used to measure them.

   Brett