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Author Topic: Rudder Offset  (Read 14093 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Rudder Offset
« on: June 13, 2012, 05:23:52 AM »
I have been reading here for years that very little rudder offset is best.  When I built my ringmasters in the 60's I didn't know that.  Currently, I am flying a Smoothie with a B-40 that I got from someone else.  I have been able to do more with this plane than any other plane.   On Saturday,  I was flying on a ball field in a wooded area.  I took off, using a stooge, and the flight was going well except for a rich engine run.  Then the plane jerked and I heard what sounded like an explosion but it continued to fly well.  I wondered how a motor could bang like that.  Near the end of the flight, I heard another "supposed explosion"  and felt another jerk - only - this time the vertical stabilizer and the rudder broke off.  Bystanders told me that I had nipped a tree limb.   I had taken off on a gravel road where the tree limbs were cut back and had failed to back up far enough to get out from under the branches.  I'm glad to report that only a large tissue paper patch is needed on the outside wing tip and two small patches - already put on with clear.

Now here's the most interesting thing that leaves me in a quandary. 

After the rudder broke off, it started to go faster.  This may have due to the tank just about running out.  The plane also stayed out on the end of the lines better for the last couple of laps.  The rudder on this plane has about an inch offset.   

Question - could this be due to less drag or was it only that the tank was almost empty?   

I'm thinking about trying a flight, half tank of fuel, without the rudder assembly on but I'm afraid to.  I'm looking for that windless day.  Would y'all out there try that?

Is it true that in general, planes fly faster and stay out on the end of the lines better without a lot of offset?

Thanks ahead of time.   I'm having fun with this Smoothie.

Offline Derek Barry

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2012, 05:37:42 AM »
Having that much rudder offset can and will cause the plane to yaw, this could cause line tension problems. Tip weight and leadout position are more than enough to keep the plane on the end of the lines. I would make a new rudder with no offset and use that. The plane should fly better and be easier to trim if you do this.

Derek

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 07:35:45 AM »
I vaguely remember years ago reading an article written by the legendary Bob Palmer about plane set up.  He stated that the rudder actually did little with help of flying our control line planes.  that in actuallity he had a plane that a rudder got knocked off and really flew better.   When rudder was replaced it had no off set.   Monday while setting up my Jerk Line Special for its maiden flight I knocked the rudder off.  Grain running wrong direction, my bad.   It flew great at a very rich setting.  Next fliht a little leaner and I was having fun.  It is not a stunt ship as such.   Will have to check date, but think it would make a very good Old Time plane.  Even with the wind changing directions, it never got light on the lines.   Now the rudder is back on and ready to do it right. H^^   
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Offline Gene O'Keefe

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 07:44:58 AM »
One inch is alot of offset but I rather doubt that losing the rudder increased speed...more likely tank was near empty...
I agree, put a new rudder on it with very little, if any, offset.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 03:15:34 PM »
Fifty years ago I broke the vertical stabilizer with rudder offset off my Ringmaster.  It flew much better without it.  I left it off.
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steven yampolsky

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 03:51:17 PM »
Her's what I've been told about rudder offsets:

Give just enough offset to make sure it's not pointing into the circle. If you build straight and are comfortable that rudder does not point into the circle, by all means, build it with zero offset.

My odd sense of humor got the best of me one day, building a full on competition model, I decided to build it with a tiny, fully adjustable  rudder. It was so tiny, I had zero aerodynamic impact. When I showed up at a contest with that pimple of a "rudder" pointing at 45 degrees out, I had stirred quiet a heated discussion between  "straight", "wiggly" and "fixed offset"   S?P


Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 05:27:19 PM »
I learned years back that landing gear spats can act like bad rudders if they aren't dead parallel to the center-line of the airplane. 
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 08:31:19 PM »
Lots of rudder offset will cause both things.

The offset will "force" the tail in and the nose out and the drag will increase as the airplane flies "sideways" to its direction of flight.

Drag at a "fixed" propulsive force will slow the airplane down.

When a tethered airplane slows down the line tension reduces (swing a rock on the end of a string both fast and slow to demonstrate).

(Edited to point out that the negative effects of excessive rudder offset also forces the inboard wingtip forward, forcing the leadouts to "bend" as they pass through the leadout guide causing two bad things: first, the friction drag requires additional line tension to overcome before applying the control inputs you desire and, second, the aerodynamic "pitch axis"  forces you are able to apply are less by virtue of the reduced airspeed which results from the additional aerodynamic drag due to the yaw.)

These effects viewed in the "reverse" suggest the following:

Reduce (or eliminate) the offset and the "forced sideways" flight reduces; drag reduces; the airplane speeds up; the line tension increases.  Tit for tat as they say at Hugh's mansion.

Ted
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 09:14:01 PM by Ted Fancher »

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2012, 03:12:35 AM »
Thanks for the advice.  I have flattened out the rudder and reinstalled it.  It has a slight offset, perhaps a 32nd to a 16th of an inch offset.  I will give a flight report, once I get in some flights. 

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2012, 10:52:16 AM »
Lots of rudder offset will cause both things.

(swing a rock on the end of a string both fast and slow to demonstrate).



Ted

SINCE THE BEGINNING OF MY LIFE IN CL (waaaay back in the early 1950's) I can not begin to count the times sooo many of my friends, family, n friends...have tried to make a comparison joke of my addiction to flying control line toy airplanes on strings appears to be as Exciting as:
"TWIRRRRRLING & SWINGING AROUND n' AROUND  A "ROCK ON THE END OF A STRING!"
Don Shultz

Offline Les McDonald

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2012, 01:46:43 PM »
I must say Shultzie was twirling some mighty fine rocks "back in the day" but he was younger then.
(He had some great stunt ships too)
I see people my age out there climbing mountains and zip lining and here I am feeling good about myself because I got my leg through my underwear without losing my balance

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2012, 03:15:54 PM »
I must say Shultzie was twirling some mighty fine rocks "back in the day" but he was younger then.
(He had some great stunt ships too)
Thanks Les..
I thought I was pretty good at twirling rocks----THAT IS!!! until I attended my first Nationals waaay back in 1967. WOW! Maybe only  after watching flyers like Bart Klapinski or Dave Geirke.....Uhhh? Daaaa Say????, for a about 3 seconds after watching Bart...for the first time...TALK ABOUT THE NEED OF GOING BACK TO SCHOOL!!!!   BW@ BW@ BW@:o :o :o :o :o :o....

Guess you might know that for some weird reason thoughts  of my first day at kindercare n 1st grade in school in Meade Kansas
%^....
TALK ABOUT A BIG TIME REALITY CHECK!
Guess you can tell by that sheepish look on my face...Who should walk up just a few moments before this first photo was taken of me... and set his amazing CLPA work of art on the table next to where I was standing?  Daaa?
attached photos...
If you look carefully...All three of these designs (except for Bart's AMAZING WINNING DESIGN....show very very little offset...even Bob Gialdini's Sting Ray design I flew that year...and similar design concepts throughout the years had only  rudders with virtually no offset what so ever..but used simply an AIRFOILED RUDDER?  H^^
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 04:49:07 PM by Shultzie »
Don Shultz

Offline philip metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2012, 04:15:49 PM »
In every bunch there has to be someone to descent lol. I do agree that the angle of the lead outs needs to be set to accomplish a desired angle of yaw; however, in order to not work against you during wing overs the rudder should be set to a neutral position to the angle of yaw. In other words if your design says that the plane should fly with 6 degrees of yaw the rudder/ vertical stab should be positioned at neutral for this angle of yaw. Otherwise, the rudder attempts to overcome your angle of attack when flying overhead. This is probably more particular in 1/2 A's but is still relevant to larger planes. I do agree that one can continue to add leadout sweep to overcome a straight rudder but this is another way to handi-cap a plane that is trimmed improperly. 

Offline Shultzie

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2012, 04:56:28 PM »
In every bunch there has to be someone to descent lol.. 
"descent"
An act or an instance of descnding
A downward incline or passage
A family origin ancestsry
A Decline, as in status
A Sudden attack
A Tranference of property inheritance
Bottom line:  n~ HB~>
RUDDER OFFSET WITH FORETHOUGHT AND CARE... H^^
Don Shultz

Offline philip metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2012, 04:59:33 PM »
LOL that is awesome. Dissent was the intended word I am glad that you pointed that out.

Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2012, 05:11:56 PM »
I apologize, I just noticed that I was logged in with my fathers account. The purpose of my post is to incite a discussion about the true dynamic function of the rudder/ vert. stab on a control line plane. General rules do little to increase understanding and are often full of misinformation. This is only my theory of rudder function. I would love to hear some feedback considering this issue in order to properly answer this fellows question.
Nathan, New guy, Newbie, Youngster, Pleeb, So on and so on

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2012, 09:03:39 AM »
Schultzie, were you ever so lucky to know such people back then.   And you guys look so young.

You mention Meade Kansas again.  We drive thru town going to Tuscon almost every year.   Stopped there and had dinner one night when I used to drive straight thru.   Wound up staying in Liberal because of an ice storm that happened that day, but hadn't got to Meade.  Almost turned back the next morning, but the ice was melting, so we continued on.  Quite a little wide spot in the road these days. H^^
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2012, 10:06:51 AM »
I apologize, I just noticed that I was logged in with my fathers account. The purpose of my post is to incite a discussion about the true dynamic function of the rudder/ vert. stab on a control line plane. General rules do little to increase understanding and are often full of misinformation. This is only my theory of rudder function. I would love to hear some feedback considering this issue in order to properly answer this fellows question.

    The original function appears to have been to "hedge the bets" of the kit manufacturers by making sure that no matter what the builder did, or how much misalignment the airplane may have had when built, that it would stay out on the lines. Although it appears that C/L was invented some considerable time before "tip weight" was invented, and all else being equal, with no tip weight, you better have a lot of rudder offset or learn to run really fast.
 
     As Ted mentioned, the effect of rudder offset was/is to force the nose out, tail in, and create some line tension - which it does in some cases.  It creates an aerodynamic yaw torque, and the airplane yaws nose out until the torque created by the offset (which goes down as the angle increases, but very slowly) is balanced by the torque created in the opposite direction by the line tension acting on the leadout guide. In steady level flight this is generally OK, it quickly reached the equilibrium between the two, and then just stays there.

   Unfortunately, during maneuvering, this balance is continually changing - the line tension changes, the speed changes, etc.. What happens then is that the "equilibrium" yaw angle keeps changing, and the airplane starts yawing around trying to move to this new and changing angle, which just exacerbates the line tension and speed changes. So you end up wallowing around, which then excites the lines to start whipping around, which keeps it going until you stop.

    Worse yet, as you yaw around, the airplane also wants to roll. Essentially any stunt plane will roll as the yaw angle changes - towards the "trailing" wing. Once again, this is livable if you never maneuver. Once you do, the above yaw motion starts, which induces a roll motion, so the entire airplane starts into a pretty random motion.

     You might think none of this makes any difference because you are just trying to control pitch. But all this roll/yaw motion makes the line tension vary, too, which definitely does affect the pitch axis. For example, if you hold the handle at a fixed angle, the more line tension there is, the more elevator deflection you get. If it changes 7 times during a corner, the radius of the corner changes 7 times, all without you doing anything intentionally.

  You might think that this doesn't have very big effect, but I have seen extreme examples of this from people who post here regularly. Light, straight, powerful airplanes that were close to unflyable because of rudder offset and the resulting wild oscillations in all three directions.

    Several people have noted that it is at least hypothetically possible to balance the airplane (aerodynamically and mechanically) to fly with a non-zero yaw angle and whatever rudder offset corresponds to that angle. I haven't seen people having a whole lot of luck with that plan, myself.

   That's a brief introduction. This has been rehashed in all the detail any normal human being can stand in threads both here and on SSW, so I would would suggest searching the archives in both spots for the relevant information. If that doesn't answer the question, then there are plenty of people that might help.

     Brett

Offline John Cralley

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 11:17:17 AM »
Got to wonder about the "Al Rabe Rudder!" It must have some effect during maneuvers.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2012, 12:17:27 PM »
Got to wonder about the "Al Rabe Rudder!" It must have some effect during maneuvers.
Al built semi-scale stunters, which means dihedral, which means yet another set of factors affecting how the plane flies.

I suspect that the rudder was there because the dihedral interacted with the flight path in ways that I am not smart enough to figure out at 11:15 in the morning, and that the rudder made things better -- or at least convinced Al that they were better.
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Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2012, 01:08:39 PM »
Brett, I appreciate your reply and I apologize for rehashing a topic that has been discussed before; however, Few new building or design topics can really be introduced to a sport that is as old as CL. I believe that I understand your comment on instability and have a possible solution or at least thought experiment. When an aircraft is over head the angle of attack of the fuselage is acting as an airfoil. The wing and hor. stab/ elevator are acting like a giant rudder. The airplane is also at its most vulnerable in this position. The rudder being at the correct angle will provide stability at this point. A straight rudder will be attempting to lessen yaw and in affect reducing lift. tip weight acts as a centrifugal force to exponentially increase yaw, The lead out angle also provides yaw, as does the engine weight. So in this dynamic view one has two forces providing exponential yaw and the rudder and leadout angle are in effect attempting to limit the yaw to a specific angle. If an airplane is as unstable as the one you suggested there is obviously something amiss I would suggest lessening tip weight or possibly reducing lead-out angle. The fuselage, when it is acting as an airfoil, (over head) requires a specific amount of AOA to produce the correct lift this is the angle that should determine the rudder/ vert stab angle.    
Nathan, New guy, Newbie, Youngster, Pleeb, So on and so on

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2012, 02:09:59 PM »
Got to wonder about the "Al Rabe Rudder!" It must have some effect during maneuvers.

   The purpose of it is to reduce the yaw motion arising from the gyroscopic precession of the propellor. That wasn't mentioned in the discussion above because it was about the aerodynamic effects of rudder offset. The idea is that you move the rudder in a direction that provides a compensating torque to the precession of the propeller. It has to change in flight based on the pitch rate.

   Whether that is the *only* effect it is compensating for is open to debate but it's possible to make it null out yaw torque that would otherwise be uncontrollable. What it is most certainly NOT for is creating intentional yaw offsets.

    This is all swell in theory and works if you are very careful about adjusting it. What happens in 99.9% of the cases I have seen is that it winds up adjusted too often for too many different issues, and creates far bigger problems than the one it was intended to solve. That's not because of some flaw in the concept but because virtually no one can evaluate the performance of the airplane well enough to make the right adjustments. This goes for nearly everyone all the way to the Walker flyoff - the only one that I saw that was even close to right, in recent years, was (not surprisingly) Paul Walker's, on the Mustang. Every other Rabe rudder I have seen used in the last 20 years or so has been *grotequely* out of adjustment. That the pilots managed to get to the flyoff and fly very nicely with them was a tribute to their perseverance more than it was to any merit of the rudder motion. for instance, Windy's airplanes were absolutely notorious for fishtailing through the maneuvers due to grossly excessive rudder adjustment (and a huge null bias, see above), but he certainly flew them nicely most of the time. I think it made it more difficult than it needed to be, however.

   If anyone feels compelled to add one, for goodness sake, bolt it on rigidly straight ahead, trim the airplane absolutely as well as you can, until all you see is the tiny residual yaw motion that you can't resolve, and then and only then add rudder motion and only enough to compensate for the tiny residual yaw *while changing no other trim settings*.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 02:23:17 PM »
Brett, I appreciate your reply and I apologize for rehashing a topic that has been discussed before; however, Few new building or design topics can really be introduced to a sport that is as old as CL. I believe that I understand your comment on instability and have a possible solution or at least thought experiment. When an aircraft is over head the angle of attack of the fuselage is acting as an airfoil. The wing and hor. stab/ elevator are acting like a giant rudder. The airplane is also at its most vulnerable in this position. The rudder being at the correct angle will provide stability at this point. A straight rudder will be attempting to lessen yaw and in affect reducing lift. tip weight acts as a centrifugal force to exponentially increase yaw, The lead out angle also provides yaw, as does the engine weight. So in this dynamic view one has two forces providing exponential yaw and the rudder and leadout angle are in effect attempting to limit the yaw to a specific angle. If an airplane is as unstable as the one you suggested there is obviously something amiss I would suggest lessening tip weight or possibly reducing lead-out angle. The fuselage, when it is acting as an airfoil, (over head) requires a specific amount of AOA to produce the correct lift this is the angle that should determine the rudder/ vert stab angle.    

   No, that's not right, or at least I think it's a bad idea. Adding rudder offset and yawing the fuselage out (in this case, to provide "sideways" (to the airplane) lift almost always greatly reduces the overhead tension and makes it much more difficult to do overhead maneuvers. The reason is that the reduced line tension as you get to higher elevations permits the rudder to yaw the airplane further "nose-out" which gives you a piddling increase in line tension due to the lift, but it's extremely draggy, which slows the airplane and reduces the centrifugal force - which is not a piddling change. So you end up behind on line tension, not ahead, even ignoring maneuvering. With maneuvering, the large initial yaw angle just exacerbates the dynamic motion described above.

   It's particularly bad in the hourglass - for this reason. When you climb up the first leg of the hourglass, it may or may not help to be yawed out. The yaw angle will get larger and larger as you climb as the line tension goes down. Then you have to pull in some extra tension to do the second corner. That will abruptly yaw the nose of the airplane back towards you, whip the lines back, and make the line tension drop dramatically as you go over the top. Then it's time to do the next corner, and one of two things will happen - either :

    the lines and aerodynamic torque from the rudder will have forced the nose of the airplane back away from you, even more than the first corner, setting you up for a repetiton - you yank the controls, which causes an even higher nose-in rate than you had before and complete loss of tension either during or right after the corner

    OR...

   the airplane has not recovered line tension by the time you need to do the corner, in which case you have to fly past the correct spot waiting for it to come back, or you have to yank your arm back and step back just to get it to turn, all of which is too late for the proper geometry.

  the first case results in the classic "double turn" where the airplane does maybe 90 degrees of the corner, loses tension, flys straight for a while (towards the ground), the recovers in time for the pilot to do a panic recovery. The second case results in the top being too long and then you have to make the corner 150+ degrees to get back to the proper starting point - which usually also generates case 1 again!

   Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 02:28:54 PM »
Al built semi-scale stunters, which means dihedral, which means yet another set of factors affecting how the plane flies.

I suspect that the rudder was there because the dihedral interacted with the flight path in ways that I am not smart enough to figure out at 11:15 in the morning, and that the rudder made things better -- or at least convinced Al that they were better.

  The effects of dihedral are pretty straightforward but definitely do result in roll/yaw coupling. But even straight wings with no dihedral have a dihedral-like effect, i.e. when you yaw it it also rolls.

  Al's reasoning was that the rudder was there to make up for the precession of the prop. I contend there might have been more than *just* the precession going on but the end result was supposed to be to compensate the system to minimize/eliminate the variation of the yaw angle.

   Brett
« Last Edit: June 30, 2012, 03:57:56 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2012, 02:57:23 PM »
Cool, then the airplane is not flying when it is over head, one should be only using centrifugal force to maintain line tension. I don't believe this accounts for the planes ability to stay aloft when flying over head. When the wings are perpendicular to the ground the fuselage in my thinking has to be creating lift... wait a tick I think a neuron is firing lol. Ok so the wing is creating a lift towards the canopy (if flying up-right) this lift and forward momentum is creating a centrifugal type force that in effect is keeping the plane in the air? Does that sound right? I am much more use to actual aircraft aerodynamics that I sometimes discount the effect of being tethered. I still maintain that the rudder should be set at a neutral position to the intended yaw of the plane, if this is done I still think the rudder will act in a dampening fashion due to the decreased effectiveness of the rudder as airspeed slows. I definitely believe that the less amount of yaw that a plane needs to maintain line tension the better but I can still see a need for the correct adjustment of a rudder to provide an stabilizing air surface. 
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Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2012, 03:18:12 PM »
Sometimes I find it difficult to write specifically what I am referring to. The rudder in an overhead manueuver will not provide more yaw than the degrees in which it is set if the rudder has 4 degrees of offset it will attempt to maintain a 4 degree yaw. I also do not see why this creates loose lines. The yaw in effect changes the thrust line of the plane so even if the fuse is not providing lift the direction of thrust is attempting to pull the plane higher. Now if all this is outta whack then you will have a mess on your hands but if it is trimmed correctly the plane should have all equal forces in a wind neutral situation.
Nathan, New guy, Newbie, Youngster, Pleeb, So on and so on

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2012, 03:22:31 PM »
I don't believe this (centrifugal force -- Tim) accounts for the planes ability to stay aloft when flying over head.

A plane flying 6-second laps on 60 foot lines is going to accelerate at about 1.8 g's toward the center of the circle.  So when you're at the top of the circle with the Earth pulling down one g worth, you still have to provide 80% of the plane's weight in pull on the lines.

With 5.5 second laps, the acceleration goes up 20%.  With slower laps, it goes down -- which is why you shouldn't do an overhead maneuver when you've got a bad engine run.

If the plane is managing to generate no lift along the length of the lines and is managing to stay at a constant speed, then the centripetal effect is the same no matter how tight the radius of the turn (but -- the tighter the turn, the more likely it is to get squirrelly, or slow down).

So the plane can, indeed, stay up at the top of the circle by centripetal effect alone.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2012, 03:24:50 PM »
Sometimes I find it difficult to write specifically what I am referring to. The rudder in an overhead manueuver will not provide more yaw than the degrees in which it is set if the rudder has 4 degrees of offset it will attempt to maintain a 4 degree yaw. I also do not see why this creates loose lines.

The story I heard is that the excess yaw slows the plane down, and cuts down on the amount of centripetal acceleration available to keep the plane on the end of the lines.  How real?  I dunno.  Why should it be more overhead?  I dunno.
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Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2012, 03:29:42 PM »
Thanks Time, I think this is the breakdown In communication, Excessive rudder or yaw is bad for sure but what about the right amount of yaw. The original poster had 1" of offset that is obviously way to much; however, putting the rudder on straight is not right either. Every plane is going to require a certain amount of yaw to maintain its lines, this is why adjustable leadouts have become so popular. My point is that once you have found this position the rudder should match the proper yaw angle of the plane. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2012, 03:44:17 PM »
Thanks Time, I think this is the breakdown In communication, Excessive rudder or yaw is bad for sure but what about the right amount of yaw. The original poster had 1" of offset that is obviously way to much; however, putting the rudder on straight is not right either. Every plane is going to require a certain amount of yaw to maintain its lines, this is why adjustable leadouts have become so popular. My point is that once you have found this position the rudder should match the proper yaw angle of the plane. 

The guidance that I get is consistent: put on the vertical fin in such a way that it has no offset, or build in just enough so that you can be sure that any offset is the 'right' way.

You adjust the leadout position so that the plane isn't yawed appreciably: this requires setting them back a bit from the center of gravity, because the lines tend to bow from air resistance.
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Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #30 on: June 15, 2012, 04:04:22 PM »
I am probably wrong about this lol but I am of the assumption that the lead-out angle should set the yaw angle not limit it. Or at least that is how my pea brain works. Not having enough leadout angle makes the thing rock about its vertical axis while maintaining level flight. Too much leadout angle would slow the plane down and drag the lines. All of these adjustments should be made together in order to have a balanced plane. The leadouts, weight box, rudder, tail weight, engine thrust and weight, all need to work for ya. Taking any one of these adjustments to the extreme should cause a mishandling plane. 
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Offline Ed Prohaska

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2012, 05:02:28 PM »
To experiment, you could add an adjustable and (if you like) a removable rudder to the model's fin, as I did to the ARF Score. I like vertical stabilizers (fixed fins) and rudders (the part you steer with like a boat rudder), partly for esthetic reasons. Most full scale aircraft have them. There are exceptions, but to me most models look incomplete without a fin and rudder.

When the Score was new I flew it with offset that varied from 1/4" down to zero. It was measured at the lowest point of the rudder trailing edge, as deviation from an imaginary straight line that passes horizontally through the fin, from its leading to trailing edge (and beyond). Just saying for example that "I use 3/16" of rudder offset." doesn't tell the whole story. The surface area of the rudder and how you measure the offset is also important.

Anything more than 3/16" caused excessive yaw and was counter productive. After flying several times and adjusting the offset and also removing the rudder completely, I settled on about 1/8" offset. It seems to help in the second half of the reverse wing over and the vertical and overhead maneuvers.

At the same time I was playing with rudder offset, I was also changing the line guide position, tip weight, nose weight, line length and diameter (.018" or .021") and also trying different engines and props. It was a very unsystematic trim procedure, but it was fun!

The overriding issues included leveling the wings with flap tweaks and tip weight, adding the right amount of nose weight, settling on a good line length (.018" X 65 feet) and (most important) having the right kind of power up front (the best engine and prop combination for the plane's size and weight, with some extra power to spare).

It now flies with a really feisty stock ST .60 and Stalker 13 X 6 prop. The combination delivers enough grunt to power through minor trim issues, which the model will probably always have. Due to a rule change that lasted only one season, I had to switch to .021" X 64 ft. lines. The extra weight and drag made power even more important.

This will be its 4th season and I'm pretty comfortable with it, so I could again play with the rudder and should switch back to .018" lines. The problem is, once I get something that flies halfway decent and I get comfortable with it, I just want to fly!  Regards, EWP

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2012, 05:52:58 PM »
I am probably wrong about this lol but I am of the assumption that the lead-out angle should set the yaw angle not limit it. Or at least that is how my pea brain works. Not having enough leadout angle makes the thing rock about its vertical axis while maintaining level flight. Too much leadout angle would slow the plane down and drag the lines. All of these adjustments should be made together in order to have a balanced plane. The leadouts, weight box, rudder, tail weight, engine thrust and weight, all need to work for ya. Taking any one of these adjustments to the extreme should cause a mishandling plane. 

     Of course the latter is the case. But no matter where you put the leadouts, the angle will increase until the torque from the leadouts equals the torque from the rudder. If the fin/rudder is dead straight ahead the leadouts will either put out zero torque, or force the nose in or out until the fin/rudder torque is non-zero. Of course it is asymmetrical because the more the nose comes in, the less the tension, etc.

     What I disagreed with in the above is that yawing outboard is somehow desirable for overhead maneuvering or that it increases the line tension. If you read some of the previous discussion, you will see that I noted that you can't have adjustments fighting each other without some ill effects, and that the leadouts should probably be set to a calculated "sag" angle based on the basic line tension and line drag, an then the rudder adjusted until it is compatible with that angle.

    Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2012, 12:13:46 AM »
Hi Nathan,

FWIW, Brett is a recent National Stunt Champion whose design, the Infinity, has been lauded by many of the best stunt fliers in the country as one of...if not "the"...best flying (and easiest flying) stunt plane they have ever flown.  Brett knows whereof he speaks and makes a pretty good living controlling the flight paths of some of the world's most exotic un-earthbound vehicles.  His expertise in objects in motion and willingness to share it has been a significant factor in the stunt lives of many an already accomplished stunt flier. 

Take it to the bank that whatever he suggests is worthy of any stunt flier's attention and should probably be the first rather than the last step taken when trimming a stunt ship for optimum performance.  At one time I considered my "older" self his mentor...until I came to the realization that the shoe was on the other foot.

Ted

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2012, 06:35:31 AM »
Trying to explain to newer flyers or old timers why adding rudder offset and getting the body of the plane angled out of the circle will not help line tension was always difficult until I explained it this way. Think of the entire body of the plane as a rudder. When the body is angled out of the circle the body of the plane is acting like a rudder and it is trying to turn the plane in to the circle. As the plane loses speed in a turn the body swings left and we get less line tension. Telling some of them to move there leadouts forward is taking my life in my hands. They look at me like I have lost it. Some times it is better to walk away and let them continue doing what they have done since the 50's.   ~^
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2012, 09:40:52 AM »
Those following this thread should be sure to monitor the "yaw in level and overhead flight" thread started by Peter Germann.  Peter and Rene had a great idea for illustrating the yaw on a stunt ship in flight that, with a little trim manipulation and additional photo opportunities, could turn out to be very educational with respect to the discussion in this thread.

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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2012, 10:31:22 AM »
Take it to the bank that whatever he (Brett Buck) suggests is worthy of any stunt flier's attention and should probably be the first rather than the last step taken when trimming a stunt ship for optimum performance.

He's certainly one of my "must listen to" guys on this forum, and has been even before I realized that he's a top competitor.
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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2012, 11:12:45 AM »
When either Ted or Brett provide information it's like the old "EF Hutton" commercials, we lean over toward the computer screen and read, as many times as necessary, to comprehend what is being said.

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Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2012, 06:16:58 PM »
Awesome I think this has increased my understanding of the dynamic load of the plane. I hope it helps the original poster. I definitely appreciate the input of the experienced flyer. Without you guys people like me would never get past doing simple loops. Trimming or setting up a control line profile is definitely a complex operation with differences between planes engines and flyers. Thanks again for your input.  H^^
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2012, 08:38:02 PM »
Verdict is in:

I flew the plane three times tonight in more wind than I usually fly.  The plane flew the best that it has ever flown.  It stayed on the end of the line for the overhead eights and a few sick attempts at an hour glass.  Of course, I did the stunts down wind.   I was really having fun.   I've finally been convinced to build with no rudder offset or very little offset.     Thanks for the good advice.

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #40 on: June 18, 2012, 08:47:48 PM »
I was just reading my post.  Actually they were not overhead eights.  they were vertical eights.

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2012, 04:48:14 PM »
Seeing is Believing - getting rid of rudder offset can be quite helpful.

Today I flew this plane in strong wind - strong enough to make it shake - but it stayed out on the end of the wires despite having very little rudder offset.  In fact it pulled really hard.

I'm thinking of backing off the pitch.  The B-40 has a JZ Zinger 11-6 on it.  It seems to run full bore with no - 4-2 break.  I will have to back off the needle valve. 


I have another plane in mind where I may take off the rudder offset and see if it tracks better.  It is a McCoy 19 powered King Cobra.  That's a project for later.

Offline Larry Cunningham

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2012, 06:46:30 PM »
What convinced me that zero rudder offset was better was an outside loop on my battered Twister (which had the rudder offset shown on the plan). That loop was exciting - the plane hit the ground inverted and recovered - flying completely minus its rudder. IMMEDIATELY I noticed an improvement in line tension and felt more confident.

Next time I brought the Twister out, it had the rudder cut apart and set flat. Subsequently I never built anything but flat rudders, however I did use a very mild airfoil on the left side for awhile before I abandoned that as well.

I admit to needing to try a Rabe "wiggly" rudder sometime.. Considering that we always flight in a circle, I've wondered if we might even consider a little inboard rudder, to right the ship on its path, reduce its yaw.. Is that a nutso notion? ;->

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2012, 09:03:20 PM »
Considering that we always flight in a circle, I've wondered if we might even consider a little inboard rudder, to right the ship on its path, reduce its yaw.. Is that a nutso notion?

I've done it.  It worked OK.  That doesn't mean it's not nutso.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #44 on: June 28, 2012, 04:10:58 PM »
(snip)
Considering that we always flight in a circle, I've wondered if we might even consider a little inboard rudder, to right the ship on its path, reduce its yaw.. Is that a nutso notion? ;->

L.

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Hi Larry (and all),

For about two years Aaron flew his Satona with rudder inset.  This wasn't noticed until Randy saw it one day at a contest.  He said the rudder is pointing "in".  After looking hard I saw it.  We fixed it and he flew it that way until its unfortunate bout with anti gravity, or maybe it was a black hole........... (I have never had it explained as to why a model will simply drop out of flight in a milisecond with nothing broke and no control applied..... ??? )

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2012, 04:54:41 PM »
Hi Larry (and all),

For about two years Aaron flew his Satona with rudder inset.  This wasn't noticed until Randy saw it one day at a contest.  He said the rudder is pointing "in".  After looking hard I saw it.  We fixed it and he flew it that way until its unfortunate bout with anti gravity, or maybe it was a black hole........... (I have never had it explained as to why a model will simply drop out of flight in a milisecond with nothing broke and no control applied..... ??? )

BIG Bear
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One thing that cause that many times every year is flying thru your own wake turbulence , or bad swirling winds

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« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 06:55:45 PM by Bill Little »

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #46 on: June 28, 2012, 06:06:24 PM »
" One thing that cause that many times every year is flying thru your own wake turbulence "

This is almost impossible to overcome with a sudden momentary drop ; the cause is signifigant lack of lift over the wings just for a moment - essentially washing off or away what forward movement of air was present over the wing.

If you control the airflow over the wing you virtually eliminate this as an issue.

Rising thermals
Mini Whirli's
Wake Turbulance
Prop Wash

None of these things are desirable for stable flight - If you can make your ship immune to a certain degree to these effects it will help your consistency.



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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #47 on: June 28, 2012, 06:47:40 PM »
"

...essentially washing off or away what forward movement of air was present over the wing.



PJ, you are disqualified for attempting to impersonate an aerodynamicist.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #48 on: June 28, 2012, 06:54:46 PM »


Hi Randy,

You were there but didn't see the actual mishap.  He had done the first loop of the clover and was at the bottom of the second loop when the plane just dropped 5 feet with no evident problem.  He had flown over the correct distance so that he wasn't overlapping the loops.   I can't see it being wake turbulence.  ???

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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Rudder Offset
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2012, 07:30:30 PM »
I offer that it sounds like a dust devil or 'hole' in the air caused by terrain, trees,  groups of people or anything else interfering with the normal breeze.  The 'old' circle in Topeka Kansas was possessed with such demons when the wind came from the west over a line of trees.  Have seen ukies barrel roll there-including one of mine.  Many airplanes haunt that place.  The new site is entirely open next to a golf course so has no demons.  Circle #1 at Muncie has it's issues at times when the wind climbs the burm on the end.  I'd consider something like this as your cause.
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