Best way to remove old finish and silkspan covering?

[Tom McClain]

Well, I have a Bob Palmer Zero Profile that he started just before he died and it was given to Bill Heyworth and later I bought it from Keith Trostle as Bill's estate was liquidated after Bill died.  I covered it with silkspan that I got from the doctor's office that was not the best and painted it with Sig dark green and Randolph clear.

The covering is very tender and splits any time it is touched.  So that is  why I need to remove the covering on the wing, horizontal tail, elevators, and vertical fin.

Any words of advice?

[john e. holliday]

Tom, Tom, have you not searched through the finishing section.  There are several posts that tell what liquid they are using.  All of them require being out in open air or use a respirator.  Ace tone is the cheapest and the vapors will get to you if in a closed area.

[Motorman]

60 grit Sandpaper works.

[Tom McClain]

In other words there is no easy quick way to do it.

[john e. holliday]

Right.   

[Dan McEntee]

   I would go at it with some of the newer aircraft paint strippers to remove all the colored dope, and it the process will soften what's underneath. Then try gently scraping with one of those plastic putty knives with the corners rounded off so you don't gouge the wood. It will just take time. You'll get the majority of it off that way and then block sand back down to bare wood. I read on here years ago about soaking the airframe down with acetone and then letting it sit in a sealed plastic bag big enough to hold the model, and after 24 hours, just peeled the covering off. Once you get into it I think you will find it's nat as bad as you think. Some models might not be worth the effort, but something like a Palmer personal airplane would be worth the effort.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Dave_Trible]

I’ve done several and the best way I found is the acetone ‘bath’.  Rubber gloves,  several rolls of paper towels and work it off in layers.  Usually you will reach a point where the covering will peel off in large chunks.  After that you’ll have to do some repair work to the wood here and there.  Then just start the finish over.  If it has a plastic canopy just plan to replace it.  I’ve never had much luck protecting it well enough.  Can’t do this with a foam wing!

Dave

[Tom McClain]

Thanks for the advice, all being excellent. Thankfully, the canopy is from a Pepsi bottle and impervious to acetone. Now just get it done as Larry the cable guy would say.

[Dan Berry]

In other words there is no easy quick way to do it.

It takes a lot of beer.

[Tom McClain]

I received this piece of information from Charles:

You have just been sent a personal message by Avaiojet on stunthanger.com.

Quote from: Tom McClain on Today at 04:54:09 PM

Several years ago, Scott Richlen was talking about a replacement for K&S GM Silkspan.  His suggestion was the examining couch paper that is used in Doctor's offices.  I got some from my doctor and used it to my disappointment.  It is not robust enough for our use for model aircraft wings with open bays.  I rectified that by finding some K&S GM silkspan.

With all due respect. Why on earth would anyone use "paper" to cover a model airplane? Looks like Mr. Richlen never used or worked with the product he recommended?

I did ALL THE TESTS including WEIGHT plus coats to cover!

Sure. silk isn't the lightest material, weighs 11 grams more than the other two per sq. yd., but fills with less coats AND, is much easier to apply. You cannot tear silk.

Even easier now because I found a way to apply silk dry using CA. And it's catching on slowly.

Don't let anyone fool you, I've been at this a long long time.

There was a time, still probably but I'm not sure because I don't buy kits, when silkspan came with the kit.

It was "junk" back then 50's 60's, so guys discovered a better product. That would be silk. It's still the best product for covering application.

There is no "Holy Grail."

Do you use nitrate clear or colored dope?

There's misleading comments in this Forum every day.

Charles

[Dan Berry]

I received this piece of information from Charles:

You have just been sent a personal message by Avaiojet on stunthanger.com.

Quote from: Tom McClain on Today at 04:54:09 PM

Several years ago, Scott Richlen was talking about a replacement for K&S GM Silkspan.  His suggestion was the examining couch paper that is used in Doctor's offices.  I got some from my doctor and used it to my disappointment.  It is not robust enough for our use for model aircraft wings with open bays.  I rectified that by finding some K&S GM silkspan.

With all due respect. Why on earth would anyone use "paper" to cover a model airplane? Looks like Mr. Richlen never used or worked with the product he recommended?

I did ALL THE TESTS including WEIGHT plus coats to cover!

Sure. silk isn't the lightest material, weighs 11 grams more than the other two per sq. yd., but fills with less coats AND, is much easier to apply. You cannot tear silk.

Even easier now because I found a way to apply silk dry using CA. And it's catching on slowly.

Don't let anyone fool you, I've been at this a long long time.

There was a time, still probably but I'm not sure because I don't buy kits, when silkspan came with the kit.

It was "junk" back then 50's 60's, so guys discovered a better product. That would be silk. It's still the best product for covering application.

There is no "Holy Grail."

Do you use nitrate clear or colored dope?

There's misleading comments in this Forum every day.

Charles

....Soooooo ...... no help with your current issue?

[Tom McClain]

....Soooooo ...... no help with your current issue?

Interesting!

[Dan McEntee]

Interesting!

   Just think where you would be if you had to deal with all that CA holding the torn silk down!  I don't know where he gets the idea that silk won't tear! It's obviously not from experience!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Tom McClain]

   Just think where you would be if you had to deal with all that CA holding the torn silk down!  I don't know where he gets the idea that silk won't tear! It's obviously not from experience!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I have covered at least one ship, my Westland Wyvern, with silk and I was fortunate I found an excellent article by I believe Laddie Makalusko (Not sure of spelling) on how  to do it well.  It helped. 

[Dan McEntee]

I have covered at least one ship, my Westland Wyvern, with silk and I was fortunate I found an excellent article by I believe Laddie Makalusko (Not sure of spelling) on how  to do it well.  It helped.

   
    Oh, silk has it's place, and when applied properly works just fine. I know the late Jim Thomerson detailed his method on the forums, both here and Stuka Stunt, and the Makalusko article rings a bell and may be similar to what Jim and many others do. But the absolute last thing I would use to hold any covering material down with, no matter if it's toilet paper, canvas, tissue paper or Irish linen, is C/A glue!

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Tom McClain]

   
    Oh, silk has it's place, and when applied properly works just fine. I know the late Jim Thomerson detailed his method on the forums, both here and Stuka Stunt, and the Makalusko article rings a bell and may be similar to what Jim and many others do. But the absolute last thing I would use to hold any covering material down with, no matter if it's toilet paper, canvas, tissue paper or Irish linen, is C/A glue!

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

It would be interesting to read how Charlie does it.  The hardness of thin CA is somewhat of a bother.

[Dan McEntee]

  The hardness of thin CA is somewhat of a bother.

  That's it in a nutshell. You, I'm sure, have used enough C/A to know that there are places where it doesn't belong, and what its physical traits are. It has to be used within it's limitations, and it does have limitations.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Avaiojet]

It would be interesting to read how Charlie does it.  The hardness of thin CA is somewhat of a bother.

 Negative comments from those who have absolutely no idea wow I use CA to cover with silk. Interesting.

First of all, all wood gets coats of clear dope or Deft. Tom Morris applies 3 coats of clear dope on his framed models before covering is applied. I believe Tom uses Polyspan.

There's a "release" agent used to "undo" CA. Doesn't anyone know this? And it works, so removal is a non issue. How do I know? Believe me, the method I use wasn't perfect the first time I tried. Or the second.

So the "little" amount of CA I use is actually NOT touching balsa at all. And I only use it around the edges. PLUS, and I've said this many times, I quickly wipe the CA so there's no buildup.

BTW, I've never Posted negative comments about someone's building or lack of building skills. Think about that.

And I've also said, build, cover and finish your model any way you choose.

FYI, I'll do a wing in minutes! Ready for clear dope if the wing has open bays. I always use clear dope on my open bays. Said this 100 times. I use Deft over sheeted balsa. Although someone said they have used Deft on open bays, I still believe clear dope is the best choice for open bay application. I have not tried filling open bay weave with Deft.

[Tom McClain]

Negative comments from those who have absolutely no idea wow I use CA to cover with silk. Interesting.

First of all, all wood gets coats of clear dope or Deft. Tom Morris applies 3 coats of clear dope on his framed models before covering is applied. I believe Tom uses Polyspan.

There's a "release" agent used to "undo" CA. Doesn't anyone know this? And it works, so removal is a non issue. How do I know? Believe me, the method I use wasn't perfect the first time I tried. Or the second.

So the "little" amount of CA I use is actually NOT touching balsa at all. And I only use it around the edges. PLUS, and I've said this many times, I quickly wipe the CA so there's no buildup.

BTW, I've never Posted negative comments about someone's building or lack of building skills. Think about that.

And I've also said, build, cover and finish your model any way you choose.

FYI, I'll do a wing in minutes! Ready for clear dope if the wing has open bays. I always use clear dope on my open bays. Said this 100 times. I use Deft over sheeted balsa. Although someone said they have used Deft on open bays, I still believe clear dope is the best choice for open bay application. I have not tried filling open bay weave with Deft.

Thank you for explaining how you do it.  Might give it a whirl in the future.

[Avaiojet]

Thank you for explaining how you do it.  Might give it a whirl in the future.

Tom,

That's just enough information to get someone in trouble. There's more to it than that.

Have you seen my GBR-3 build? I explain this a bit more in the build, but difficult with still photos.

I actually removed the silkspan on this model to recover it with silk. Applied dry with CA.

All I removed on the ARGO 2 was the material in the open bays. The Build is over at CFC Graphics vendor's corner.

Here's the model sporting fresh silk.

Charles

Edited, Wrong photo.

[Scott Richlen]

  Several years ago, Scott Richlen was talking about a replacement for K&S GM Silkspan.  His suggestion was the examining couch paper that is used in Doctor's offices.  I got some from my doctor and used it to my disappointment.  It is not robust enough for our use for model aircraft wings with open bays.  I rectified that by finding some K&S GM silkspan.

With all due respect. Why on earth would anyone use "paper" to cover a model airplane? Looks like Mr. Richlen never used or worked with the product he recommended?

I did ALL THE TESTS including WEIGHT plus coats to cover!

Sure. silk isn't the lightest material, weighs 11 grams more than the other two per sq. yd., but fills with less coats AND, is much easier to apply. You cannot tear silk.
 

Dear Charles:

Maybe if you had actually paid attention to my post you would have noticed that I said that one of our club members, Frank, had identified an examination paper very different from typical examination paper and that it worked as well as silkspan.  It was a great surprise to us as normally you'd never try to use the examination paper that is found in most doctor's offices.  Frank was careful to specify the paper exactly because, again, it was very different than typical examination paper.  By ordering that very specific paper, people could use it to cover their planes and not try to cover their airplane with the wax-paper-like stuff you would beg from your doctor.  I'd bet that anyone trying to cover open-bay structure using the typical examination paper that he recovered from his doctor's waste bin would be quite disappointed.  Of course, he'd have only himself to blame for not obtaining the specified paper.

And yes, I did actually use and work with the examination paper that was specified.  And I actually flew the plane that was covered with that examination paper.  And many others have also used that paper successfully.  And it was certainly robust enough to cover open bay construction.  Maybe if you had paid attention in reading my, and many other, posts you would have used the correct paper.  Following instructions always helps.

[Avaiojet]

Dear Charles:

Maybe if you had actually paid attention to my post you would have noticed that I said that one of our club members, Frank, had identified an examination paper very different from typical examination paper and that it worked as well as silkspan.  It was a great surprise to us as normally only an idiot would try to use the examination paper that is found in most doctor's offices.  Frank was careful to specify the paper exactly because, again, it was very different than typical examination paper.  By ordering that very specific paper people could use it to cover their planes and not do something incredibly stupid like try to cover their airplane with the wax-paper-like stuff you would beg from your doctor.  I'd bet that anyone trying to cover open-bay structure using the typical examination paper that he recovered from his doctor's waste bin would be quite disappointed.  Of course, he'd have only himself to blame for not obtaining the specified paper.

And yes, I did actually use and work with the examination paper that was specified.  And I actually flew the plane that was covered with that examination paper.  And many others have also used that paper successfully.  And it was certainly robust enough to cover open bay construction.  Maybe if you had paid attention in reading my, and many other, posts you would have used the correct paper.  Following instructions always helps.

Scott,

You should be talking to Tom, the OP, to find out where the mix up was? Others may have misunderstood also.

I'd like to see a photo of his model in the condition it's in.

Are you still using doctor's paper?

Charles

 

[Dan McEntee]

Scott,

You should be talking to Tom, the OP, to find out where the mix up was? Others may have misunderstood also.

I'd like to see a photo of his model in the condition it's in.

Are you still using doctor's paper?

Charles

   You should be well aware that your reading comprehension skills are at a very low level and that you very, very often misrepresent what you read. You obviously never read anybody else's threads on the subject with any care, because if you did you would have known that the subject of "doc span" has been covered at length several times since Scott's original post. Several of us did the research and purchased samples to make sure that the correct part numbers were out there and available. All exam table paper is not the same. Even amongst the stuff the appears to be like silk span comes in many textures and weights. it comes printed with teddy bears and unicorns if that trips your trigger! I searched out samples of the two different weights, cut them to the same area as the K&S samples that some one else sent me, weighed them, and that they weighed also on a Ohaus triple beam lab scale, and we both came up with the same results. Then I did a wet strength test where I completely wadded up a sheet, soaked it in water, and then unraveled it to hang by it's corners and it did not tear. Even Sparky got some samples, built a wing test section, covered it with the correct stuff and doped it, put up a video of the whole process here on Stunthanger, and declared it pretty dog gone close to K&S stuff. I tell you what. You just get one of your contraptions finished and ready to fly and then put up some flights to show us how well your "system" works. I will tell you that there is almost a 100% chance that there has never been a top ten place at any NATS that used C/A and silk as a covering system.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Avaiojet]

I have covered at least one ship, my Westland Wyvern, with silk and I was fortunate I found an excellent article by I believe Laddie Makalusko (Not sure of spelling) on how  to do it well.  It helped.

Tom,

Do you have a photo of your Westland Wyvern?

Charles

[Tom McClain]

Tom,

Do you have a photo of your Westland Wyvern?

Charles

As requested.

[Avaiojet]

As requested.

Tom,

I passed out!! What day is it?

Amazing!! I have a Thread someplace which is about the same Westland Wyvern, but I could never got my hands on plans or got around to designing my own.

Great aircraft to model.

You know what they say about photos, you are now "the man."   

Wow!!

Charles

[John Carrodus]

Tom - Don't fly it! It's too darn pretty! Simply "Spiffing" - as the Poms would say.

[Tom McClain]

Tom - Don't fly it! It's too darn pretty! Simply "Spiffing" - as the Poms would say.

I flew the Wyvern about 8 times and even with a Ro-Jett rear exhaust .61 and a 3 blade Stalker Medusa 12 x 5 CF propeller, it was underpowered. I looped it and flew inverted, but it was 74 oz and a monster. It now resides at the Glen Martin Aviation Museum with my two Martin B-26s, Bellanca Flash, Vought birdcage Corsair, and RB-104 Starfighter.

I have concentrated on 35 to 40 size stunt ships.

[Ken Culbertson]

I flew the Wyvern about 8 times and even with a Ro-Jett rear exhaust .61 and a 3 blade Stalker Medusa 12 x 5 CF propeller, it was underpowered. I looped it and flew inverted, but it was 74 oz and a monster. It now resides at the Glen Martin Aviation Museum with my two Martin B-26s, Bellanca Flash, Vought birdcage Corsair, and RB-104 Starfighter.

I have concentrated on 35 to 40 size stunt ships.

I did a full design of that plane for a .60 size engine while on alert duty in Korea somewhere around '73-'74.  Between that and the stag films the pilots brought in those 2 weeks went by pretty fast.  I never built the plane.  Lost the plans, 20' of butcher paper, in the fire.

Seeing the picture, I am sorry I never built it.

Ken