Roast me! Pattern video critique request

[Brent Williams]

I am going to have to try one.  I used to fly using the large red EZ-Just.  Everybody told me I needed one of those fancy new fully adjustable ones.   Not sure I don't like the EZ-Just better.  Fancher's handle seems to have enough adjustment to allow for minor line length differences and I assume somebody makes the different size clips. I think I will give that a try before I get too used to the wire ones.

Thanks - Ken

At Ted's behest, I have uploaded the info pack from his handle.  This info and that from Paul Walker's trim chart should be used to get your handle set correctly.

Lots of good ways to go about ditching the cable.  My handle offering (ie, Ted Fancher's) is one among several good choices.  The Fancher Handle basically mirrors the exterior dimensions of the Hot Rock(s).  So if you're comfortable with that shape, you'll be right at home.  I do offer separately an optional full set of clips that gives 5/8 of adjustment in 1/16 increments.  One should invest in a line clip bender, though.

Paul's feather weight carbon handle was used successfully by Dave Fitzgerald to win the Walker Cup this year and to carry Paul and Chris to top 5 finishes as well.  If Howard used the same handle that I saw at the NWR, then at least one Fancher handle was used by a top 5'er.  I think Derek uses a Kaz MNT hardpoint handle.   I do know several of my Fancher handles are being used this year at the FAI Worlds in Landres, as I have shipped them all over the globe. 

(Please pardon my shameless infomercial and thread drift.  Hopefully I plugged everyone elses product equally well)

[Ted Fancher]

    This is about as far from science as it gets - it's computer science, which is a science in the same sense that a refrigerator is a species of dinosaur.

   Below is a snip of the code it takes to generate your post, everything you see in between the <> brackets is a "tag". They are instructions to the computer to make the things appear. There seems to be a lot of it, but the entire thing (thousands of lines) is very compact in internet terms, so easy to download. Your web browser knows how to read the instructions, and does most of the work of making it show as it does. This approach minimizes the amount of data that has to be transmitted. The language itself is called HyperText Markup Language, or HTML.

     Essentially, you are downloading not a "web page" as you see it, but a relatively compact computer script/program that your browser knows how to execute that generates the web page locally on your machine.

   Sparky's software knows how to generate new source code based on your inputs (note that only a tiny fraction of it is things you type), and creates links and updates the page source. When you click a link, the page source text file is downloaded, your browser "renders" it as you see using your processing power.

     The problem was that when you posted your response, you inadvertently used one of the tags (the strikethrough tag) as part of your text. Being a computer, it was stupid and just did what you (accidentally) told it to do.

      Brett

Uh. OK. Thanks 

p.s.  You do understand, my friend, that me reading the attachment to your message was like trying to digest the Kama Sutra written in Sanskrit, don't you?

[Ted Fancher]

I just wanted to note that it was at my request that Brent posted the material included in the hard point handles he has made available to others.

The sole reason I suggested it was to get the information starting about 2/3 of the way down the first page through to the end where there is a fairly comprehensive discussion of what I felt at the time and still subscribe to are the advantages of a hard point handle and how to best take advantage of them.  I encourage readers serious about improving their entry into the sport to read it carefully.  (The first two thirds of the first page are primarily construction tips)

As always when I discuss "my" handle I feel it appropriate that I share how I came to "develop" it.

At the World Championships in Shanghai in 1994 I was on the team and Paul was flying as defending World Champion and, as team mates I frequently caddied him on and off the circle for practice and official flights.  Constantly aware of different stunt "gadgets" I was struck by Paul's rudimentary hard point handle...all parts fixed with multiple up and down line attach points to permit sensitivity adjustments.  He varied "neutral" as needed by utilizing line clips of different lengths (such as are still available from Brent and others).

Knowing full well that Paul never does "anything" for no reason I mentally stole his ideas and the "Fancher" handle is based on the "hard point" attachment supplemented by a handfull of ideas I felt would retain the advantages of the hard point plus allow additional fine tuning features such as the overhang adjustment and limited neutral adjustments achieved by adjustable length line attach point "arms" (I stressed "limited" as gross differences...more than, say, an 1/8" or so, should never be utilized since large changes will make the "feel" of inside versus outside maneuvers different...the opposite of what we're after to fly well).

In other words, I only steal from the best...or, this year anyhow...the second oooops...third best.  Sorry Derek!

If anyone wants more details on the information in Brent's post just ask.

Ted

[dale gleason]

Like most pilots, I don't read Sanskrit, only look at the pictures....

dg

[Ted Fancher]

Like most pilots, I don't read Sanskrit, only look at the pictures....

dg

Cute, Dale!

[Brett Buck]

Uh. OK. Thanks 

p.s.  You do understand, my friend, that me reading the attachment to your message was like trying to digest the Kama Sutra written in Sanskrit, don't you?

    It was offered to give you some idea what is going on behind the scenes, that makes all this stuff go, and how fundamentally simple the it is (details notwithstanding). When you write a response, all those icon buttons at the top are there to give you easy access to the tags without having to know the syntax. You use them all the time, you used the {color = green} tag in your original post, and use the {quote} tag all the time.

   Brett

   

[Ken Culbertson]

Immediate response. 
No dullness of feeling.
No induced spring action from the cable. 
No cable to fail.
Less overhang for less effort. (generally)

Ok - your shameless marketing and convincing logic has beat me into submission and I have ordered a one of your "Hard Point" handles.  You should have a PM by now.  Does the certificate guarantying a 100 point increase in scores come with the handle or will that be by Email?

Ken 

[Dane Martin]

Ok - your shameless marketing and convincing logic has beat me into submission and I have ordered a one of your "Hard Point" handles.  You should have a PM by now.  Does the certificate guarantying a 100 point increase in scores come with the handle or will that be by Email?

Ken

Mine did. Lol. Even my dumb @$$ felt an immediate change. I need to order more also.

[Ted Fancher]

Just a general comment for Dane but pertinent for all.

When building/assembling a stunt ship always aim for more deflection than you think you'll need.  I always insure I have ~45 degrees of flap and elevator "accessible" before it leaves the shop.

The reason is simple: if you have it and don't need it you've lost nothing.  If you need it and can't get it you're in a world of hurt!

Ted

[Ken Culbertson]

Immediate response. 
No dullness of feeling.
No induced spring action from the cable. 
No cable to fail.
Less overhang for less effort. (generally)

PayPal for the clips is on the way.  Enjoyed talking with you today.  The "I" flew on a Fox35. I am 17 in that pix.  "II" and "III" were a bit smaller and went through several McCoy 35's.  The profile in the Pix is what I am flying now.  It is a slightly smaller profile of the "IV" which will host the OS46FX and be my PA machine ( If it survives the new handle!)

Ken

Sometimes putting things side by side tells you something.  I like the "I" better than the "IV".  "I" has a bad stab/elevator ratio which I should not alter for Classic  but maybe I make IV look like I and just fix the stab and airfoil...

[Dane Martin]

Ok, as Ken suggested, this has kinda turned into an online clinic for my plane and getting it to fly through the pattern a little better for me. So here's the tweaks so far....
1) Pitch control correction. Minor building error. Up and down are equal now, flap to elevator rates seem equal also.
2) Engine run inconsistencies - tank issue. Vent was at the top of the tank. Inverted flight meant the vent was immersed, upright flight the vent was open to atmosphere. That can't be good. Plumbed tank for uniflow.
3) Bringing Paul Walkers trim article to the field with me. Hopefully a test flight tomorrow.
4) Go-pro and tripod ready for next test flight.

[Ken Culbertson]

Ok, as Ken suggested, this has kinda turned into an online clinic for my plane and getting it to fly through the pattern a little better for me. So here's the tweaks so far....
1) Pitch control correction. Minor building error. Up and down are equal now, flap to elevator rates seem equal also.
2) Engine run inconsistencies - tank issue. Attached pic of how it was. Vent was at the top of the tank. Inverted flight meant the vent was immersed, upright flight the vent was open to atmosphere. That can't be good. Plumbed tank for uniflow.
3) Bringing Paul Walkers trim article to the field with me. Hopefully a test flight tomorrow.
4) Go-pro and tripod ready for next test flight.

Sorry I hijacked your thread over my handle issues.  Can't wait to see what it flies like now.  Having a ship capable is step #1.  On the tank issue - you hit the cause on the head but, there are two acceptable solutions and one will probably work better than the other.  Plan "A" is uniflow.  Probably best if you can make it work. Personally I have never had much success with Uniflow on a clunk.  Probably me.  If they just made a uniflow pickup fitting!  You can add muffler pressure to unifow if propwash doesn't give you the desired fix. Plan "B" is simple muffler pressure with the pickup in the upper forward inside corner of a tank that is at least 1oz larger than the amount of fuel you plan to use.   Try this only if the Uniflow doesn't work out. Either way you might consider adding a vent tube to the inside front corner that you cap off after filling to keep your engine from filling up with fuel. 

GOOD LUCK!

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

2) Engine run inconsistencies - tank issue. Attached pic of how it was. Vent was at the top of the tank. Inverted flight meant the vent was immersed, upright flight the vent was open to atmosphere. That can't be good. Plumbed tank for uniflow.

I run non-uniflow clunks with muffler pressure on most of my profiles.  If the uniflow tank doesn't give satisfaction, try muffler pressure.  For that matter, take some fuel tube with you, and try muffler pressure to the uniflow.  Note that it will change your needle setting, dramatically.

Is the tank height adjustable in a consistent and repeatable manner?  If it's located in the up/down direction by the tank hooks, consider opening up the distance by at least 1/8" and then holding the tank in place with balsa shims.  I've gone to carrying my tanks on a tray (plywood or thin aluminum with lots of holes) with slotted screw-holes.

[Dane Martin]

I run non-uniflow clunks with muffler pressure on most of my profiles.  If the uniflow tank doesn't give satisfaction, try muffler pressure.  For that matter, take some fuel tube with you, and try muffler pressure to the uniflow.  Note that it will change your needle setting, dramatically.

Is the tank height adjustable in a consistent and repeatable manner?  If it's located in the up/down direction by the tank hooks, consider opening up the distance by at least 1/8" and then holding the tank in place with balsa shims.  I've gone to carrying my tanks on a tray (plywood or thin aluminum with lots of holes) with slotted screw-holes.

Well you see the thing is this. I built this before I ever considered giving stunt a real shake. So there's some things that are half @$$-ed at best. Not the build quality, but for example, the tank. Not adjustable at all. So! I made the vent line in the middle have the ability to adjust up and down.
Second, well maybe more important.... the engine is border line not enough. I hate to admit that because I love small engines. But that might be the case. Let's see if I get the run better how true that is.

Ken, hijack away. These things wander all over the place. It's all been great discussion and a lot of fun anyway. Where are you in Texas? I got family I see regularly out there often. Dallas area and Houston area.

[Brett Buck]

Second, well maybe more important.... the engine is border line not enough. I hate to admit that because I love small engines. But that might be the case. Let's see if I get the run better how true that is.

   What engine is that, an iron-liner 25SF (with what appear to be a huge venturi)?   Based on the video, you aren't coming close to running out of power, the engine is 4-stroking for most of the flight. You can get much better performance by reducing the pitch and running the engine faster and in a 2-stroke. That will also smooth it out. You might have to adjust the venturi size (smaller) to keep it from going "over the top".

   You are getting a lot of advice, with a lot of changes. Make them *incrementally*. You fixed the control travel issue, test that, with no other changes, then work carefully towards the other changes, testing and optimizing each one over multiple flights. If you try to do multiple changes at once, you could easily wind up with multiple issues and have no way to fix them or even know which one was the problem or which ones are interacting with each other. Those with lots of experience can make multiple changes and know which changes affect the other changes, but lacking that, you could just create a confusing mess.

      BTW, the first thing mentioned is the last one you are going to be able to fix. Reducing the sizes is something you do over a season, or multiple seasons, before you are comfortable and consistent with it. Be aware of it, but that clock in your head will not easily be altered and will demand much more of the airplane performance than what you are doing.

     Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

I've gone to carrying my tanks on a tray (plywood or thin aluminum with lots of holes) with slotted screw-holes.

Every time I think I have come up with a new Idea I find out that somebody did it first!  I use balsa wedges to get the height on my tray then I MonoKote them in. Your way is probably better.  Forgive the finish, this plane is 100% MonoKote.

The last pix is for Dane.  This is what I was talking about in my last post looks like.  Simple muffler pressure.  6oz tank and a pattern run is 3.5 to 3.75oz depending on the weather.

[Ken Culbertson]

Well you see the thing is this. I built this before I ever considered giving stunt a real shake. So there's some things that are half @$$-ed at best. Not the build quality, but for example, the tank. Not adjustable at all. So! I made the vent line in the middle have the ability to adjust up and down.
Second, well maybe more important.... the engine is border line not enough. I hate to admit that because I love small engines. But that might be the case. Let's see if I get the run better how true that is.

Ken, hijack away. These things wander all over the place. It's all been great discussion and a lot of fun anyway. Where are you in Texas? I got family I see regularly out there often. Dallas area and Houston area.

Dallas - We fly at Hobby Park in Garland mostly Sat & Sun AM this time of year.  Ever in town shoot me an EMail and I will see if there will be any of us out there.  Summers here give us a 3 hour window in the AM before your wheels melt.  Well maybe 4 hours.

Ken

[Dane Martin]

   What engine is that, an iron-liner 25SF (with what appear to be a huge venturi)?   Based on the video, you aren't coming close to running out of power, the engine is 4-stroking for most of the flight. You can get much better performance by reducing the pitch and running the engine faster and in a 2-stroke. That will also smooth it out. You might have to adjust the venturi size (smaller) to keep it from going "over the top".

     Brett

That is a pic before VSC. Jim Lee and Chris McMillan got my venturi "right-er". I've always felt the tank was an issue. So, that was a wishlist item. The control and the tank is the only change right now. I will not alter the way I fly (I'll keep them big) so I can see what's the difference.
Thanks!

[Brett Buck]

That is a pic before VSC. Jim Lee and Chris McMillan got my venturi "right-er". I've always felt the tank was an issue. So, that was a wishlist item. The control and the tank is the only change right now. I will not alter the way I fly (I'll keep them big) so I can see what's the difference.
Thanks!

    In the video, it still sounded  too large for the RPM you are running. Running it faster (by using less pitch) or making the venturi smaller are the two directions I would look into. The former will yield more performance, probably.

    But, as above, this is essentially a learning process, and not a race. This is why you should look with extreme skepticism on anyone who claims to evaluate 6 engines in an afternoon or similar (and one fairly infamous reviewer has definitely done that). With a lot of experience you can sort through "promising" vs "unpromising" in a few flying sessions, but evaluating one workable system VS another could take several seasons.

   Excellence is a journey, not a destination.

   Brett

[Dane Martin]

Oh sorry, I missed the engine part, it's a magnum 28 pro. The ball bearing engine. Running a 9x4 on 20% excaliber fuel.
In the effort to follow your advice of not doing too many things at once, I'm going to leave that alone and see what changes the improved controls yields. I think we can comfortably say it can get through the pattern with this much power. Does that sound like a reasonable approach?

[Tim Wescott]

Oh sorry, I missed the engine part, it's a magnum 28 pro. The ball bearing engine. Running a 9x4 on 20% excaliber fuel.

That should be a reasonable engine.  I'm not sure if Brett was hearing too fast or too slow (I should watch the video with sound on...).

[Brent Williams]

Oh sorry, I missed the engine part, it's a magnum 28 pro. The ball bearing engine. Running a 9x4 on 20% excaliber fuel.
In the effort to follow your advice of not doing too many things at once, I'm going to leave that alone and see what changes the improved controls yields. I think we can comfortably say it can get through the pattern with this much power. Does that sound like a reasonable approach?

Do you have a tach?  What RPM are you launching at? 

[Ken Culbertson]

That should be a reasonable engine.  I'm not sure if Brett was hearing too fast or too slow (I should watch the video with sound on...).

I just listened to it for the 1st time with the volume up enough.  Sounds just like a bearing engine running a bit rich and it is making noises that it doesn't like the prop you gave it.  The only time I heard it break into it's power envelope was at the end of the tank.  I also think that some of what we hear on the video is Doppler.  Lower pitch prop and let it run faster.  BB's want to run fast.

Something I forgot to follow up on earlier.  Don't do anything about it now but, are you using full control to make your corners?  Don't mis-understand, your corners are more than tight enough for now but you don't want to get used to giving it more control than it needs which is very easy to do on corners.  You can tell by watching the bow in your lines in a corner.  If one line bows more than the other you are probably using full control.

Enough, go fly!

Ken

[Dane Martin]

Do you have a tach?  What RPM are you launching at?

Just enough to get it off the ground, not enough to make it run hot. 

[Brent Williams]

Just enough to get it off the ground, not enough to make it run hot. 

Do you have an APC 9x4 you could try?  They are one of those magic props that just work. 

When you say 20% fuel, does that mean 20% oil or 20% nitro?

That venturi looks awfully big on that engine.  Do you know what size it is?  What needle valve assembly is it?

[Dane Martin]

I only run APC 9x4, and that's not the venturi I run. That's an old pic just to show how the tank was.
Here's from right now, at the completely empty airfield.
I came out to test / practice and can not. Maybe next time.

I erased that other pic. It didn't serve the purpose I intended.

[Steve Helmick]

For future engine/prop tuning...Mike Haverly has run his Magnum .28 quite a bit in a Barnstormer, and used a 10-4 APC. They also make a 9.5 x 4.5 that might work, and a 10-3. I tried the 10-3 on my Magnum .25, but couldn't get enough speed out of it. Might work on a .28, tho.

Also, I truly despise spinners with plastic backplates. Too much chance of throwing the prop on a slight backfire, etc. The Great Planes plastic spinner with the aluminum backplate is excellent, especially if you retap the screw holes 4-40 and use socket head cap screws. Most aluminum spinners are useable, but some are cast and I had one (Chinese) that had the backplate crack...junk. Randy Aero's are the best, IMO. Tru-Turn and Dave Brown's are fine.

While we're talking about Randy Aero...I despise those OS NV Assy's, and wouldn't consider using one. Randy's are THE best. I don't like the clicker, don't like assembling them, and they have a failure mode where they can look fine, but not work worth a darn. I want stuff that looks broken when it's broken! Easier to throw out, which is a plus.  Steve 

[Tim Wescott]

I only run APC 9x4, and that's not the venturi I run. That's an old pic just to show how the tank was.
Here's from right now, at the completely empty airfield.
I came out to test / practice and can not. Maybe next time.

I erased that other pic. It didn't serve the purpose I intended.

You may want to reconsider the 9x4 even if it's normally all you run. 

Even if it's a sprinkler type, that venturi looks like it's way too small (so on the good side, you have the problem bracketed!)

If APC made it, I'd say try a 10x3.5.  But they don't.  They make a 9.something x 3.75 that may be worthwhile to try, though.

Why no practice -- no stooge?

[Dane Martin]

You may want to reconsider the 9x4 even if it's normally all you run. 

Even if it's a sprinkler type, that venturi looks like it's way too small (so on the good side, you have the problem bracketed!)

If APC made it, I'd say try a 10x3.5.  But they don't.  They make a 9.something x 3.75 that may be worthwhile to try, though.

Why no practice -- no stooge?

Correct sir. Nothing to help launch today. Usually I have my wife, or kids, or just lucky enough for someone to be at the airfield. I guess the 115 degree weather scared everyone off. Lol.
I'm not saying my prop selection is correct or any of that stuff. Just giving the most current information about my set up. I figure if I'm asking for help, I better help with full disclosure!

[Tim Wescott]

Correct sir. Nothing to help launch today. Usually I have my wife, or kids, or just lucky enough for someone to be at the airfield. I guess the 115 degree weather scared everyone off. Lol.
I'm not saying my prop selection is correct or any of that stuff. Just giving the most current information about my set up. I figure if I'm asking for help, I better help with full disclosure!

Get a stooge!  You're a piece of plywood and some metal bits away from being independent!

[john e. holliday]

Get the stooge from Brodak MFG.  Expensive but worth every penny when flying tike gear multi engine planes.  I still have my stooge Bobby Hunt sold at one time.

[Ken Culbertson]

Get the stooge from Brodak MFG.  Expensive but worth every penny when flying tike gear multi engine planes.  I still have my stooge Bobby Hunt sold at one time.

Four "L" brackets, two rubber bands, a piece of piano wire, a 10 x 12" piece of plywood and a 10lb barbell weight or tent peg for grass and you have a stooge that will impress all that see it - namely you.  Or get one from Brodak, they are better looking. Every serious stunt flier has one in their trunk.  One thing you need to perfect before you start "stooging" is landings.  You need to land where the stooge is not where the plane wants to.  If you can't pull that off, put a stake in the ground you can hook your safety lanyard on to walk the plane back to the stooge without hosing your lines.  Use a wire tent peg that you can pull out and stick in on each flight.  You don't want it sticking up while you are flying!

The fact that you want to fly and can't is a sign that you have the Stunt Bug.  There is no known cure.

Ken 

[Dane Martin]

Ok. So we all went out and flew today. There's was 4 of us.  From 0800 to 1230. I don't really count flights, but I got about 8 full patterns in today, plus some warm up, engine tune flights. I had a pretty nice camera set up, and tried to record the last pattern. I thought it was a decent flight, but the camera shut off after only 1 min. Ugh.

I like the new tank set up. Much better quality run I think.
And on the controls, The up and down are equal now. That made an enormous difference. I just wanted to fly all day! I'm down to one gallon of 20% now!

[Tim Wescott]

I'm glad we could be of help.  Post your tank setup -- the more ideas there are floating around out there, the more there are to choose from when I need something new.

[Dane Martin]

I'm not sure that I would recommend this to anyone. I'm posting a pic because Tim is a cool dude and asked me to do so. *Disclaimer *I don't advocate emulating my set ups, unless you're using the definition as to surpass my set up.

[Dane Martin]

Every time I think I have come up with a new Idea I find out that somebody did it first!  I use balsa wedges to get the height on my tray then I MonoKote them in. Your way is probably better.  Forgive the finish, this plane is 100% MonoKote.

The last pix is for Dane.  This is what I was talking about in my last post looks like.  Simple muffler pressure.  6oz tank and a pattern run is 3.5 to 3.75oz depending on the weather.

The more I look at your set up on that tank, the more I want to take my tank off and build a little slider table like Tim mentioned. That's really neat! If my current tank works out, I'll leave it. But there's always options.

What engine is that pictured that you say you run about 3.75 oz fuel for the pattern?

[Ken Culbertson]

The more I look at your set up on that tank, the more I want to take my tank off and build a little slider table like Tim mentioned. That's really neat! If my current tank works out, I'll leave it. But there's always options.

What engine is that pictured that you say you run about 3.75 oz fuel for the pattern?

Dane:

That one is an OS46LA.  They are famous for their miserly fuel consumption.  There are probably a lot of people who have dropped them into old 35 size ships simply because they didn't have to put in a bigger tank!  They are up there with the OS35s and Fox 35 as one of the best non-piped stunt engines ever made.  I actually had an overrun at a contest recently with only 3.25 on board -weather & a bit lean.  FYI, I use the big OS Muffler for nose weight.

Glad you are getting better engine runs and the plane is flying better!

Ken

[Tim Wescott]

I'm not sure that I would recommend this to anyone. I'm posting a pic because Tim is a cool dude and asked me to do so. *Disclaimer *I don't advocate emulating my set ups, unless you're using the definition as to surpass my set up.

AFAIK that's the right way to do a uniflow on a clunk tank.  To the point where the next time someone asks I'll look for that drawing.

The more I look at your set up on that tank, the more I want to take my tank off and build a little slider table like Tim mentioned. That's really neat! If my current tank works out, I'll leave it. But there's always options.

This is the best picture I could find on short notice.  Note that the tank is on the inboard side, which I've really come to like -- but you can do the same thing on the outboard side behind the engine:

[Dane Martin]

Dane:

That one is an OS46LA.  They are famous for their miserly fuel consumption.  There are probably a lot of people who have dropped them into old 35 size ships simply because they didn't have to put in a bigger tank!  They are up there with the OS35s and Fox 35 as one of the best non-piped stunt engines ever made.  I actually had an overrun at a contest recently with only 3.25 on board -weather & a bit lean.  FYI, I use the big OS Muffler for nose weight.

Glad you are getting better engine runs and the plane is flying better!

Ken

Oh my. That's great fuel economy. I'm running 3.75 oz fuel through my little 28 for the pattern.
This has been a great thread for me. I feel like I'm nailing down some important things on this plane. I want to use this to learn trimming stuff for when I build my Stuka.

[Ken Culbertson]

Oh my. That's great fuel economy. I'm running 3.75 oz fuel through my little 28 for the pattern.
This has been a great thread for me. I feel like I'm nailing down some important things on this plane. I want to use this to learn trimming stuff for when I build my Stuka.

Not unusual for that engine.  There are a bunch of them around here and they all that economical.

Don Still's Stuka?  Incredible plane.  It is on my "Bucket List"

Ken

[Dane Martin]

I have a hand me down Still's Stuka. Yet to be flown. I gotta stick an engine in it. But I was going to measure the tank with a syringe. That'll tell me me if there's enough fuel to fly the pattern with my engine choice.

The Stuka I'm building is the Hi Johnson Stuka. 59" gull wing and all. It'll be electric powered and classic legal. Hopefully done for next VSC.

[Ken Culbertson]

I have a hand me down Still's Stuka. Yet to be flown. I gotta stick an engine in it. But I was going to measure the tank with a syringe. That'll tell me me if there's enough fuel to fly the pattern with my engine choice.

The Stuka I'm building is the Hi Johnson Stuka. 59" gull wing and all. It'll be electric powered and classic legal. Hopefully done for next VSC.

Beautiful ship but I still love the Still Stuka.  When you drop in an engine let me know what it is.  I don't have anything under a .35 right now and the modern engines around .25 are way too powerful for that tinny plane. I saw Still flying one in 1964 with a Fox 25.  Serious corners.

Ken

[Brett Buck]

ignore, duped somehow during editing

[Brett Buck]

I have a hand me down Still's Stuka. Yet to be flown. I gotta stick an engine in it. But I was going to measure the tank with a syringe. That'll tell me me if there's enough fuel to fly the pattern with my engine choice.

  Figure 1.75-2.0 ounces, I think, since the 20FP might have condensed spontaneously out of the ether just to go in a Don Still Stuka. 2.5 for margin.

   Brett

[Tim Wescott]

That one is an OS46LA.  They are famous for their miserly fuel consumption.  There are probably a lot of people who have dropped them into old 35 size ships simply because they didn't have to put in a bigger tank!  They are up there with the OS35s and Fox 35 as one of the best non-piped stunt engines ever made.  I actually had an overrun at a contest recently with only 3.25 on board -weather & a bit lean.  FYI, I use the big OS Muffler for nose weight.

The 46LA will burn fuel commensurate to what's needed by the plane.  My 54 ounce Twister needs 4 oz for the pattern, my hand-me-down Walker Atlantis needs 6.  I'm sure that a reasonable-weight Twister would use more like 3 1/2 or 3 1/4.

[Dane Martin]

Well I'll just put this out there because I took the time to record something. Today was a joke. In the sense that this video is kinda funny. Apparently I need more wind practice. However, it was windy at VSC. And I did ok-ish. I got blown out several times today. It was really wierd. Everytime I bail out in the video, it's because the lines went really slack for some bizarre reason. Anyway, just a video test. I'll need to reposition the camera.

[Ken Culbertson]

Dane:
Engine sounds a whole lot better.  Plane shouldn't be coming in at you where it did unless you have a warp, weak flap or you are placing the maneuvers too far into the wind.  Excellent judgement to abort when you did and how you did it.  The most important step in learing stunt is knowing how to take your airplane home in the same condition it was when you arrived at the field.

Ken

Follow Up:  I had a chance to watch this in slow motion.  What appears to be happening is an immediate loss of line tension when you give it rapid down control near the 45.  This is a symptom of a weak inboard flap.  It should show up in both inside and outside turns as a lessening of tension when you give it control but for some reason it is always worse outside.  I have had this happen to me several times in the past on profiles with the flap horn mounted on the flap.  I don't do that anymore.  All of the handle force is directed to the outboard flap and the plane will roll in if the connecting horn is at all weak.  That is one of the reasons I always put my controls on the inboard side.   Hold your outboard flap firm and see if you can move the inboard without using too much pressure.  If it moves, this could be your tension problem....or not.

One more thing - it appears that you are still concerned that you do not have enough down to an outside corner.  Perfectly natural had healthy.  Part of trimming is to adjust the turning speeds but it is also to learn it's limits.  I test my outboard turning limits initially from inverted flight so I am not turning towards the ground until I know how tight it will turn and what it does.  Others may have better methods, that is just mine.

Good Luck

[Dane Martin]

You may be on to something there with that flap horn situation. Maybe that's why it shows up in the wind more than anything? Also, you said something a few days ago about you thought I was moving my hand a lot to make a corner. I really do. It's like everything I can do to get it to turn. I'm gonna move my elevator down a hole and see if that's gooder.

[john e. holliday]

Good advice from Ken.   I watched the video and now that I have stopped laughing you are smart to bail out when things don't go right.  I have had 3 planes that didn't go home because of tricky air at our field.   Mainly engine quiting in a bad spot and not enough wind to keep lines tight.   I flew my DOC Special Tuesday evening in a light breeze and discovered that it flies better with a richer engine setting.  Using a Fancher handle it was turning when I wanted it to.    Have you checked to see if your loops are the same inside and outside from level flight?  Any way it was fun watching you on that video.   Let us know about the flaps and hopefully you have better air next time out.

[Dane Martin]

Doc, since I don't get to fly with you guys on here, I like to post my videos good or bad. That way you can see what shenanigans I'm up to! There's one part where I showed you I can still run!