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Author Topic: NATS Format suggestion  (Read 5265 times)

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2018, 07:38:34 AM »
   This change eliminates that.

    Brett

Hello,

How does the change eliminate it?  Guys who normally fly adv and int use borrowed or bought planes.  Sometimes they come to the Nats with those planes.  With the change and everyone flying together again we are all in 322 flying for the Walker Trophy correct?  So BOM applies to everyone.

Am I correct?
Doug Moon
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Online Dennis Adamisin

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2018, 07:50:56 AM »
NATs format has evolved and improved to what it is today because we have been willing to "tweak" it - this is a timely conversation:

* 4 circles of qualifiers for Open came about as a means of handling the number of contestants.  If that number goes down then there is nothing wrong with changing it to 3 circles.

* Similarly, the Top 20 semifinalists was viewed as a manageable and fair number.  However, selecting 20 out of say 50 entries makes more sense then selecting 20 out of 28 contestants.  Advanced finalists are a sliding scale based on the number of entries - its possible to do that for Open also. 

* If we were doing three circles it would be tempting to do 3 days of qualifying and toss out the semifinals completely.  Give everyone one more day of qualifying, blow off the Semis, pick a top 6 from Open and Advanced and go to Saturday Finals.

* One of the hardest things for the NATs ED to do is recruit Judges.  We also try to separate the Open and Advanced flyers into groups within the flight order.  If we bring in Intermediate then I think we should also look at flying the 3 groups completely separately, AND drawing judges from one group to judge another group.

* The L-Pad is a wonderful place to fly.  Our current format is designed to reduce judges fatigue, and we are successful to the point that most of the day the L-Pad is empty of official flying.  Flying separate groups at separate times of the day might be a good way to keep the flying space active while still preventing judges fatigue?

* Intermediate is an "unofficial" event that draws 10-15 entries.  One upside is that Intermediate flyers do not have to pay full NATs entry.  However, at the end of the event AMA counts the official entry, and AMA forwards some of the entry fee to us to help pay our expenses (like reimbursement for the judges)  They collect nothing and forward nothing from the unofficial events.  Unlike the Classic & OTS events, Intermediate is a rule book event and thus could be made "Official".

* Because Intermediate is a one day event, someone can fly this event, then fly other events the rest of the week without scheduling conflicts.  This year our Intermediate champion flew Combat the rest of the week.  If Intermediate had been a week long event it is probable he would not have flown it.  I do not know if other Intermediate flyers were in a similar situation.

* Because Intermediate is a one day event, it is easier to attend, but because it is a one day event I think we essentially attract a mostly "local" entry.  Question is, would we draw more if it was a multi-day event?

* My preference would be to continue to allow ARFs & 2nd-hand airplanes in Intermediate - because I have not seen a compelling reason to exclude them.

* Personally I think we missing an opportunity by not offering the Profile event as another unofficial event - but WHERE to put it in the schedule?

Denny Adamisin
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2018, 09:13:31 AM »
Hello,

How does the change eliminate it?  Guys who normally fly adv and int use borrowed or bought planes.  Sometimes they come to the Nats with those planes.  With the change and everyone flying together again we are all in 322 flying for the Walker Trophy correct?  So BOM applies to everyone.

Am I correct?

  Yes. BOM applies,  ARFs and OPPS would not be allowed.

    Not that many people fly OPPs in NATS intermediate already, and removing the BOM has long proven not to solve the "participation" issue in general, so not permitting ARFs doesn't seem to hurt anything in the long run.

     I know how this is shaping up - but to date, there is virtually no evidence that not having the BOM or appearance points "increases participation" (if anything, the opposite) so there's no reason to continue to flog that horse at the NATs. What seems to enhance participation is a legitimate challenge in all areas, and a better contest for everyone, which this provides for guys at the back of the pack. It doesn't change anything much for the likely winners.

       Brett

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2018, 09:41:16 AM »
NATs format has evolved and improved to what it is today because we have been willing to "tweak" it - this is a timely conversation:

* My preference would be to continue to allow ARFs & 2nd-hand airplanes in Intermediate - because I have not seen a compelling reason to exclude them.

* Personally I think we missing an opportunity by not offering the Profile event as another unofficial event - but WHERE to put it in the schedule?
These two points are important to this discussion.  Perhaps we should leave intermediate alone.  I think the whole point of any change should be to make the NATS function at both levels for everybody.  You have the dedicated core who are after that coveted Walker Trophy and you have the rest that want to attend and particate in  what should be the "Greatest Show on Earth" to a model builder/flier.

I have no problem erasing the Advanced/Expert distinction and letting the results make that cut.  In fact I think it is a good idea.  Adding Profile is also a great idea.  Especially if it is flown on a day other than Classic, and, if you can find a really good Classic Profile, you have a one plane in the back of the car for three events which makes the trip make more sense.

From what I have read (since I was in the wilderness while all of the current formats evolved) Classic in it's various forms and profile were intended to some degree to be warmup events for the Big Show yet I don't see that happening.  I attribute that to the differences in how the smaller planes fly compared to the current state of the art PA machine.  For a lot of serious fliers, it is not a good idea to be jumping back and forth at the NATS.  This is not that much of a problem in Intermediate and it might entice a lot of us "old farts" that still remember how to fly those tiny light weight 35 powered Nobler clones to attend.  Hell, we might even have a "Senior" event someday.  Lots of sports have that and with the boomers retiring there are going to be a lot of older, once very good fliers who will be taking it up again.   They have Grandchildren and Grandpa has time...but that is another thread.

Ken
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2018, 10:29:53 AM »
Myself I think there are too many classes of stunt.  I know beginner was added to encourage guys/gals to come to the NATS and fly.  I think the same was for intermediate also.   I have flown intermediate several times  just to do something before the big show.   Then there was added Old time before all this Beg, Int. and Classic.  I know the format for Open was set to give guys/gals a better chance at making the top 20.  What few Juniors and Seniors there are get to fly the other events until Saturday when they fly against each other and top 5 is flown.   I know it makes for a long week.  I myself would not support a Profile class.  Of course I have not been to a NATS for several years now. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #55 on: August 06, 2018, 03:08:59 PM »
  Yes. BOM applies,  ARFs and OPPS would not be allowed.

    Not that many people fly OPPs in NATS intermediate already, and removing the BOM has long proven not to solve the "participation" issue in general, so not permitting ARFs doesn't seem to hurt anything in the long run.

     I know how this is shaping up - but to date, there is virtually no evidence that not having the BOM or appearance points "increases participation" (if anything, the opposite) so there's no reason to continue to flog that horse at the NATs. What seems to enhance participation is a legitimate challenge in all areas, and a better contest for everyone, which this provides for guys at the back of the pack. It doesn't change anything much for the likely winners.

       Brett

Not flogging a dead horse by any means.  This is not about BOM/Non BOM increasing participation and all of that blah blah blah noise I am so over that nonsense and don't really give a you know what about it anymore.  This is about coming up with a viable solution to the nats format should the participation consistently dwindle.  You have come up with a workable solution.  If I read what you wrote correctly then you are talking about actually removing an official event and unofficial event from the entry form.  While I think that is fine at the same time others might not feel the same.  I have heard over the years that competitors like to come and compete in their class and have a chance to win.  Throw everyone in the pile like years ago and you will most likely see those who want to compete at the top of their level vs others at the top that same level stay away.  Then you end up with even less competitors in the end.

I like Dennis's idea of three days qualifiers and take the top 6 from 3 circles.  Everyone is flying 3 days, not just 2 for some, and everyone is competing for the Top6 from day one.  Not just competing for the Top20. 

The other viable option is to slide the Friday qualifiers number based on entry.  It's seems to me to be the easiest thing to do.  If participation is low enough to have a top 16 vs a top 20 making either will take about the same amount of skill and flying ability since the field is smaller.

Either way it goes I feel very confident that those who make the decisions will be able to do this in a very complimentary way to our nats entrants. 
Doug Moon
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Online Howard Rush

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #56 on: August 06, 2018, 04:55:34 PM »
* 4 circles of qualifiers for Open came about as a means of handling the number of contestants.  If that number goes down then there is nothing wrong with changing it to 3 circles.

And it's in the tabulation program now.

* Similarly, the Top 20 semifinalists was viewed as a manageable and fair number.  However, selecting 20 out of say 50 entries makes more sense then selecting 20 out of 28 contestants.  Advanced finalists are a sliding scale based on the number of entries - its possible to do that for Open also. 

And it's in the tabulation program now, as people discovered Thursday afternoon at this year's Nats.

* If we were doing three circles it would be tempting to do 3 days of qualifying and toss out the semifinals completely.  Give everyone one more day of qualifying, blow off the Semis, pick a top 6 from Open and Advanced and go to Saturday Finals.

For Advanced, that would add one more day of qualifications.  How would that work for judge assignment?  Why 6?  For 17 or 18 contestants, the current scheme takes 9 to the finals, for 19 through 24, it takes 12.  Didn't you review and approve that as stunt event director?   

* One of the hardest things for the NATs ED to do is recruit Judges.  We also try to separate the Open and Advanced flyers into groups within the flight order.  If we bring in Intermediate then I think we should also look at flying the 3 groups completely separately, AND drawing judges from one group to judge another group.

We do separate the Open and Advanced flyers into groups within the flight order. That gives the least variation of weather and judging attention over each group.  We'd do the same for Intermediate.

* The L-Pad is a wonderful place to fly.  Our current format is designed to reduce judges fatigue, and we are successful to the point that most of the day the L-Pad is empty of official flying.  Flying separate groups at separate times of the day might be a good way to keep the flying space active while still preventing judges fatigue?

Is judge fatigue a problem now? One problem is that thermals get more intense in mid-day, throwing some chance into the outcome.  Another is that it gets hotter as the day goes on, which fatigues everybody.  You could have evening rounds-- fine with me, but others prefer to go to the Roadhouse. 

I don't think keeping the flying space active is a problem.  Whenever the weather is flyable, guys are practicing.  In most years, flying on the L-pad is sufficiently busy that overflow goes to the grass circles.

* Because Intermediate is a one day event, someone can fly this event, then fly other events the rest of the week without scheduling conflicts.  This year our Intermediate champion flew Combat the rest of the week.  If Intermediate had been a week long event it is probable he would not have flown it.  I do not know if other Intermediate flyers were in a similar situation.

Could be.  Of course, if an Intermediate flier wants a week-long event, he can enter Advanced. 

* Because Intermediate is a one day event, it is easier to attend, but because it is a one day event I think we essentially attract a mostly "local" entry.  Question is, would we draw more if it was a multi-day event?

We'd lose those guys who can only stay one day.

* My preference would be to continue to allow ARFs & 2nd-hand airplanes in Intermediate - because I have not seen a compelling reason to exclude them.

Making Intermediate an official event wouldn't change that.  Brett's more radical "classless" proposal would.

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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #57 on: August 06, 2018, 05:00:17 PM »
Attendance at NATs is down. When I first attended ten plus years ago there were I believe 40 in Advanced. Not now. The AMA charge for flying a main event is way less than the accumulated costs of going to Muncie, room and board. ARFs and OPP comply with PAMPA Advanced and Intermediate. No appearance points. No Appearance points on the East Coast. Except for Brodak. Huntersvile does well. Philly Fliers contest is growing. People fly ARFs, OPP and genuine 10 point appearance point (if you are lucky) entries at the NATS.


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Online Howard Rush

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #58 on: August 06, 2018, 05:17:38 PM »
I like Dennis's idea of three days qualifiers and take the top 6 from 3 circles.  Everyone is flying 3 days, not just 2 for some, and everyone is competing for the Top6 from day one.  Not just competing for the Top20. 
 
If Advanced is on three circles, the current program takes either 9 or 12 to the finals, not 20.  Seeding isn't as reliable in Advanced as in Expert, and circles might be less balanced in flying quality.  Wouldn't that make taking 2 from each circle a problem? 

The other viable option is to slide the Friday qualifiers number based on entry.  It's seems to me to be the easiest thing to do.  If participation is low enough to have a top 16 vs a top 20 making either will take about the same amount of skill and flying ability since the field is smaller.

It's the easiest thing to do because it's already done.  Yup, I agree about skill and flying ability.  For up to 40 or so contestants, we'd send about 54% to the Friday round.  I'll send you (and anybody who wants them) the details, and you can critique them.

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Online Howard Rush

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #59 on: August 06, 2018, 05:22:29 PM »
Attendance at NATs is down. When I first attended ten plus years ago there were I believe 40 in Advanced. Not now.

Here are data from the last time I collected it.  The high numbers were from when hordes of Brazilians were coming.
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Offline Derek Barry

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #60 on: August 06, 2018, 06:43:40 PM »
If we were to adopt Brett's "classless" format, an Intermediate event could continue to go on as usual. Since advanced would no longer be an official Nat's event, it could be added to the grass circles as well. Someone could compete in a one day event for their skill class, and in the Nat's too, if they were so inclined.

I am not advocating for any of this, just putting it out there.

I do have one problem with the format. As I read it, we no longer have top 20 day. I find this unacceptable, because it truly is the most difficult day in stunt, and I love it!

Derek

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2018, 10:59:34 PM »
Howard’s diagram does not appear to track Advanced entries.


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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #62 on: August 07, 2018, 07:07:09 AM »
Attendance at NATs is down. When I first attended ten plus years ago there were I believe 40 in Advanced.
Has there been any serious attempt to find out why serious fliers do not attend the NATS?  It appears to me that a lot of the things that I see on this and other threads are coming from those that DO attend (or don't for reasons outside their control) speculating as to why attendance is down.  Why don't we ask those that don't attend why and what changes would get them to attend?  It might be that nothing we do will increase attendance.  If that is the case then focus on how to keep what we have happy. 
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #63 on: August 07, 2018, 07:42:54 AM »
Has there been any serious attempt to find out why serious fliers do not attend the NATS?  It appears to me that a lot of the things that I see on this and other threads are coming from those that DO attend (or don't for reasons outside their control) speculating as to why attendance is down.  Why don't we ask those that don't attend why and what changes would get them to attend?  It might be that nothing we do will increase attendance.  If that is the case then focus on how to keep what we have happy.
Exactly.  Our main attendance problem is age and ‘retirement ‘.  For most who wish to come it is likely easier now than ever to do so in terms of time, family and finances.  It’s just our numbers aren’t growing as fast as our retirements.  Manipulating the format isn’t really going to change that.  We might need to make some adjustments to compensate for the shrinkage but it’s unrealistic to think we can create a new wave of participation.  The bodies just aren’t out there-or they would come.

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #64 on: August 07, 2018, 09:35:39 AM »
Has there been any serious attempt to find out why serious fliers do not attend the NATS?  It appears to me that a lot of the things that I see on this and other threads are coming from those that DO attend (or don't for reasons outside their control) speculating as to why attendance is down.  Why don't we ask those that don't attend why and what changes would get them to attend?  It might be that nothing we do will increase attendance.  If that is the case then focus on how to keep what we have happy.

   See the other thread, but we used to have people from all across the country come to it, now, it's mostly just the people within a day's drive. We have gone to Muncie every year since 1996, at some point, it has to stop being "special". The West has the biggest number of likely candidates but attendance from CA/AZ/OR/WA has dropped off to nearly nothing.

    We have had higher turnout at local contests than was had at the NATs this year. We have plenty of people who might want to go, if it wasn't such an ordeal. Only the real die-hards go anymore.

     Brett

Offline Mike Palko

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #65 on: August 07, 2018, 10:58:15 AM »
One has to ask. Is Nat’s participation down because of location or because there are fewer “serious” stunt fliers. A large majority of the east coast fliers have retired from competition or all together. Hunt, Windy, Giacabone, Drindak, Adamusko, Lampione, Rogers, Weider... I could list half a dozen more and this is only those who used to attend the Nat’s and retired in recent years. Based on this Nat’s participation has remained strong.


Mike

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #66 on: August 07, 2018, 11:15:19 AM »
   See the other thread, but we used to have people from all across the country come to it, now, it's mostly just the people within a day's drive. We have gone to Muncie every year since 1996, at some point, it has to stop being "special". The West has the biggest number of likely candidates but attendance from CA/AZ/OR/WA has dropped off to nearly nothing.

    We have had higher turnout at local contests than was had at the NATs this year. We have plenty of people who might want to go, if it wasn't such an ordeal. Only the real die-hards go anymore.

     Brett

Personally I'm one of those fairly serious local expert fliers that stopped attending the NATS after they moved Muncie.  While I was still working it was just about impossible for me to take the time to travel that far and be gone for a whole week or more!  Vacation...what vacation?

After I retired it simply became too much of a financial burden to travel that far and hire people to look after our animals etc. 

Now that we're older it is too much of a burden both financially and physically, especially for my wife, to consider driving 3000 miles.

Regardless of the "wonderfulness" of the Muncie location it makes it nearly impossible for older guys like me and a bunch of my serious flier friends to make that trip!

Although I know it will never happen, in my opinion the best thing for the NATS attendance, at least as far as CL is concerned would be to rotate it at least from East to West!

Randy (It's a long way from Tucson to Muncie) Cuberly

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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #67 on: August 07, 2018, 11:54:20 AM »
In a similar conversation I had I suggested there is nothing preventing someone from holding a US Championships or Open or whatever anyplace they wish.  True the Nats are an AMA function (for which Muncie was purchased) and not a PAMPA function so they aren’t going anywhere.  One of the drawbacks though is that it may peel off from otherwise-Nats entries, judges etc.  and ruin the actual Nats.  People can only do so much and to complicate it,  next year and every other year is Nats AND the Team Trials. That’s two big trips for everyone.  I doubt three would be tenable.  I sure understand the desire for those on the coasts to want one closer.  The Navy moved it around mostly to ‘market’ different areas for recruitment but those became a little more regional contests because of the distances.  For that reason the old rule for the Nats before the Navy was that the Nats were to be held within 600 miles of KC.  I presume that was considered when the AMA moved from the east to Indiana.  Even with the Navy they held two in Olathe,Kansas and two at Glenview, Ill., etc.  Lincoln and Vincennes right after the Navy left us.  Can’t help but think we started to dwindle when the Nats got split up so you couldn’t enter multiple events and go spectate other things you hadn’t seen before.....and the work hanger......:-))

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #68 on: August 07, 2018, 12:54:56 PM »
Well I'm going to tell one of several reasons I don't attend the NATS any more.   When I retired I was how do you say fixed income.  In over a decade I have seen only a couple of small increases in social security.  In the mean time Utilities have increased,  gas for vehicles has increased,  groceries,  taxes and a few other things have gone up also.  Then with age the physical portion of me started going starting with a bad hip infection that led to the knees going bad even after going through the injections that helped a little.   Insurance did not cover all of it.   The wife is still working which is keeping us a float at times.   I can't thank Melvin and Brenda for the years they transported me to the NATS and the motel room.   It hurt to tell Melvin I could not go help him any more as I have newer problems of old age that the doctor is looking at.   You ever have muscles start hurting while just sitting and watching TV or playing on the computer.   I guess what I'm saying is that if every thing had stayed like it was when I retired I would be living great and would have never missed a NATS let alone local contests.  Yes, I have missed a few of those too.

Maybe PAMPA could come up with a National Precision Aerobatics meet that could move around the country.   It would take a lot of planning in getting a reasonable site and officials for each location.   But that would not fix the AMA NATS as such or would it. ???
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: NATS Format suggestion
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2018, 09:45:41 AM »
 
If Advanced is on three circles, the current program takes either 9 or 12 to the finals, not 20.  Seeding isn't as reliable in Advanced as in Expert, and circles might be less balanced in flying quality.  Wouldn't that make taking 2 from each circle a problem? 

It's the easiest thing to do because it's already done.  Yup, I agree about skill and flying ability.  For up to 40 or so contestants, we'd send about 54% to the Friday round.  I'll send you (and anybody who wants them) the details, and you can critique them.

Howard,
I got your email but I havent had a chance to go through it yet.
I will asap.
Thank you for taking the time to send it.
Doug
Doug Moon
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