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Author Topic: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.  (Read 5954 times)

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« on: January 26, 2014, 10:04:39 PM »
Below are the results of Stunt at the South West Regional Control Line Championahips conducted this weekend in Tucson, AZ.

Weather was very good both days with clear skies and light winds.  Temperatures were mid 50's in early morning quickly warming to low 70's by 10:00 AM.

The contest was very well run and went very smoothly both days.  A comment was heard that it was so well organized and run that it seemed that it wasn't being run at all just happening.
Truly enjoyable!

Randy Cuberly

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Tucson, AZ

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2014, 10:57:20 PM »
Looks like the California boys came down and kicked butt!
Way to go Brett and Uncle Jimby!

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2014, 11:57:23 PM »
Looks like the California boys came down and kicked butt!
Way to go Brett and Uncle Jimby!

Well they're a really good bunch of guys, so we felt sorry for them... LL~ LL~ LL~
Just wait till next year!

Seriously...we all had a great time and Brett put in some really fine flights...

Chip Hyde is coming along very well...his scores and my scores were without any appearance points...flying OP's.

Randy C.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2014, 07:10:24 AM »
Do you guys use the same scoring system as everyone else? Never saw NATS scores that high. As for local meets on the East Coast. Never in the wildest dreams.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2014, 08:30:55 AM »
Dennis, you forget most of these guys are past NATS champions and are not afraid to help the other guys do better.   Thanks for the scores and the time to post them. 
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2014, 11:11:13 AM »
Do you guys use the same scoring system as everyone else? Never saw NATS scores that high. As for local meets on the East Coast. Never in the wildest dreams.

Did you ever hear about the ranking being the important thing?  See Paul Walker's post above...he didn't seem to have a problem with the scores.  Perhaps you should come to the west coast & show us how it is done.
Bill Byles
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So. Cal.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2014, 12:35:45 PM »
Last I checked many of the same names fly at the NATs. Where their scores are not as gaudy.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2014, 12:39:02 PM »
Please. Almost everyone I know who flies CL is helpful.  ;D Oh wait. Maybe Doc is referring to helpful judges.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2014, 12:51:25 PM »
I never saw a 598 at the NATs. I think Paul Walker won this past year with a 589. Something like that. Top five spread somewhere in the 580s. I guess nine points actually means less than a point a maneuver. Brett flies well. No doubt on any given NATs he could be in top 5. But. Like I said. I never saw a 598 at the NATs. No biggie.

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2014, 05:11:57 PM »
Dennis,
One of my Walker Cup flights at the '13 Nat's would have been over 600 points if appearance points were counted there. Those results are in Stunt News.

Those size scores happen.

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2014, 05:38:33 PM »
As mentioned above, the actual numbers are immaterial.  What's important is the final rankings.  In this case, as with many others, they got it right.
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline Bill Morell

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2014, 06:53:35 PM »
I never saw a 598 at the NATs. I think Paul Walker won this past year with a 589. Something like that. Top five spread somewhere in the 580s. I guess nine points actually means less than a point a maneuver. Brett flies well. No doubt on any given NATs he could be in top 5. But. Like I said. I never saw a 598 at the NATs. No biggie.



Seems like a simple "congratulations" would have been more in line.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 02:16:53 AM by Bill Morell »
Bill Morell
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Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2014, 07:08:28 PM »
Seems like a simple "congratulations" would have been more in line.
====================================================

Well said, Bill.
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Offline Norm Faith Jr.

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2014, 09:22:30 PM »
My two cents? Good judges; know good flying, there-fore...score justly. One of the highest scored flights I ever flew; was flying intermediate in front of "Big Art." It was one of those flights that felt good and the judging proved that it was.  H^^
Norm
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 09:31:07 PM »
Dennis,
One of my Walker Cup flights at the '13 Nat's would have been over 600 points if appearance points were counted there. Those results are in Stunt News.

Those size scores happen.

  Heck, I just got done getting a 595.5 - and losing the contest. That's actually the second time I lost with that same score, both times to the same person - annoying little guy, truth be told.

    My personal high is 618 points, and I would guess my Top 10 would all be in the 600s. Some of those were very close contests, and I didn't win all of them. This is the fundamental flaw with trying to use the raw scores for anything, and why all the NATs procedures use only relative rankings and never compare raw scores directly from one group of judges to another. There's absolutely nothing wrong with scoring the same flight as a 495, as long as they are in the right order.

      If anyone doesn't like the scores- too bad, we didn't ask you.  Stunt is inherently subjective, and it will never be otherwise. Scale them all down by multiplying by .878 and it would not draw a comment. I won't debate the ranking - they didn't ask me, either.

     I thought the real story was Uncle Jimby, he flew a clear NATS Flyoff-quality flight with absolutely *outstanding* sizes, and I mean, laser accurate 45 on every maneuver, in conditions that couldn't have been more unfavorable for his airplane - 2200 feet density altitude, nearly dead calm, and mostly into the Sun. I thought, while I was watching it, that the outcome was in serious doubt. Not bad for 585 square inches and 71 ounces.

     Brett

    

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 11:15:55 PM »
While everybody is giving their "congradulations" (sic), I'll merely offer my congratulations to all.

Scores don't mean a lot, either, but a high one does kinda make the fliers feel better...for awhile.  #^ Steve
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 11:26:05 PM »
As fo the scores being high...maybe they seem that way to some folks.
The competition was intense the conditions were good most of the day and there were no beginners flying in the expert class.
Some of the best flight I've seen to date were flown there...one of those times when most of the folks are on and worked hard.
The judges are very experienced and they definitely called it the way they saw it.
Most of the folks flying in that class on that day have 30+years playing at this and most have been experts longer than that.
Chip Hyde is about the only exception, and he is no ordinary guy that just started doing this.  His physical skills and hand eye coordination are right with the very best at anything...He's coming...

Mostly it was a great fun day...frankly I never thought dog eat dog competition could be so friendly and fun!

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 11:28:34 PM »
I thought the real story was Uncle Jimby, he flew a clear NATS Flyoff-quality flight with absolutely *outstanding* sizes, and I mean, laser accurate 45 on every maneuver, in conditions that couldn't have been more unfavorable for his airplane - 2200 feet density altitude, nearly dead calm, and mostly into the Sun. I thought, while I was watching it, that the outcome was in serious doubt. Not bad for 585 square inches and 71 ounces.

That's those vortex generators working.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 11:38:14 PM »
That's those vortex generators working.

Maybe...personally I think it was the NITRO Working!  LL~ LL~ LL~

I can't seem to keep all the vortex generators on for a complete flight...they have a habit of leaving in a RUSH!... y1 y1

Randy Cuberly
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Tucson, AZ

Offline Brian Massey

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2014, 09:57:45 AM »
Points over 580 only cost $10.00 each.  LL~ LL~ LL~ Actually, there are so many Nats & WC winners living on the West Coast, the competition is merciless. If you're a 550-575 flyer, you will fly many contests and never get on the podium.

I've never flown on the East Coast, so I can't comment. But this Summer my wife and I are going to NH to see her old family farm (now a B&B). Maybe on the trip I can catch some of you flying somewhere.

Brian
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Offline 55chevr

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2014, 09:59:51 AM »
Pictures?
Joe Daly

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2014, 10:10:46 AM »
Points over 580 only cost $10.00 each.  LL~ LL~ LL~ Actually, there are so many Nats & WC winners living on the West Coast, the competition is merciless. If you're a 550-575 flyer, you will fly many contests and never get on the podium.

Brian

Tell me about it!!!!  Story of my life.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2014, 10:13:32 AM »
Pictures?

Well...I'm sorry but I left my camera at home.  I did see several folks taking pictures, maybe one of them will post some.

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2014, 10:20:02 AM »
That's those vortex generators working.

    That likely did not hurt anything, but the big improvement appeared to be associated with converting it to electric from IC.

      Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2014, 10:47:45 AM »
Maybe...personally I think it was the NITRO Working!

   Jim of course has nitro straight from the Hoover Dam. I, on the other hand, was indeed running YS 20/20 in my RO-Jett 61 (with no compression changes, for the "head gasket patrol") and that really woke up the engine compared to the 15% Powermaster RC Sport fuel I used in the past. It was only in the 70's, the density altitude ranged from 1950 to 2200 feet over the weekend, and I made almost no compensation for the conditions when flying.

   For people interested, comparing to similar temp at sea level, I changed from a 12.5-3.75 Eather Flat-back (green dye) to a 4.1" version of the same thing, with the tips around 4.25, went to YS 20/20, and moved the "up" line out one notch on my Ted handle. Launch revs went from about 10,100 to 97-9800 and my lap times slowed to about 5.45-5.5 from about 5.25. I got slightly better mileage, maybe running 30 seconds longer than I would normally. That suggests that I could have gone up some more on the nitro. I asked Jim to bring along some 45% "Wildcat" for mixing purposes but it flew so well as it was I never tried that.

    The YS 20/20 ran very well in flight. It ran a lot like the way the RC sport fuel works, with more tendency to boost and even more so, brake on downlines. YS 20/20 and the RC Sport fuel tends to cause the engine to put on the brakes much more in places like the wingover and the descending leg of the hourglass compared to the RO-Jett fuel, which runs at a more constant speed and is not significantly affected by the back-driving. This cause one of my rather large mistakes on both official flights (and all the practice flights), specifically, pulling out high on the hourglass. The engine backs off just about the time I start the corner, so it decellerates, which makes the corner tighter than intended and the overall pullout height at 8-10 feet instead of 5 or so. I can overcome that with a lot of practice but that's why I run the RO-Jett fuel when I can. In the normal case this is a non-issue, but I have the same problem when running the Sport fuel (because they don't make 15% RO-Jett - yet...).
 Next time I need 20%, I will definitely try adding about 3% castor to make it close to the RO-Jett fuel.

    I flew with much less compensation for altitude than I had in the past, almost none in fact.  It actually felt pretty sprightly and I didn't notice a huge difference. That (and Jim's experience) shows that getting the engine/motor working makes far more difference than fiddling with aerodynamics. Mine does not have vortex generators, by the way -  I would just knock them all off every time putting it in the car.

    I had considered switching to an alternate head button with .005 or .010 less head clearance, but didn't try it. Based on previous experience, it was more-or-less impossible to get over the top compression with any of the series of head buttons I have (from nominal, to "squish band hits the [iston") in any normal range of nitro. Note that this is NOT adding or subtracting head gaskets, these buttons were made with the shoulders and plug depth in different spots to maintain the same geometry at different compression ratios.

     If I flew there in the heat of summer, I would have to do something different, because I could see getting in the 35% nitro range with my current system.

       Brett
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 11:07:01 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2014, 11:54:06 AM »
I never saw a 598 at the NATs. I think Paul Walker won this past year with a 589. Something like that. Top five spread somewhere in the 580s. I guess nine points actually means less than a point a maneuver. Brett flies well. No doubt on any given NATs he could be in top 5. But. Like I said. I never saw a 598 at the NATs. No biggie.

   As a matter of fact, I have gotten over 600 on a few score sheets at the NATs, and I am sure others have as well. I have had a 425 (on a complete, competent flight). It depends on who is doing the judging.  I have also had something like a 125 point range from the high to the low judge on the same flight. The way to interpret this is - a waste of time. There's is no way - repeat, no way at all - to make any conclusions about the judge or the flight from looking at the raw magnitude, or the range of scores on a particular flight. I will say it again, you cannot tell anything at all by looking at the scores in this sort of vacuum. Judges can run "high" or "low", and neither one is wrong or right. Get two that run "high" and you get what you see here, get some that run low, and you get the same flight with a score of 500.

    The one and only relevant conclusion you can draw from examining scores is to determine if a particular judge matches the others, and that they get the ranking the same. Even then it may or may not be "right" to everyone's eye, but - we don't ask everyone.

    Trying to get the scores in a particular peak range tends to lead to a far worse problems - limited scoring range and bracket scoring. In the first, the judge knows that if he gives a lot of 38s it will come out really high, and if he gives a lot of 24s it will come out really low. So he wants to stick with 27 to 33 - which means he is intentionally deviating from what he sees as the real merit of each individual maneuver, to make it come out "reasonable". It's a very short trip from that, to "bracket" scoring, where you know the main "hotshot" is going to be more in the 33 end than the 27 end, and that the supposed lesser pilots are going to be in the lower end of the range. So when you see a blown maneuver by the hotshot, the tendency is to only go down a little bit instead of really whacking it like you would an Intermediate flier. Both of these issues are rampant (although it is getting better, as far as I can tell) at local contests and has gotten much better at the NATs over the years.

  The most stupid and destructive things in stunt come from trying to analyze this beyond this point. I have many documented examples of both the stupid and destructive.

    There are NO facts in stunt scores. If you don't get that or can't accept that, my advice is to get out of it because it will be very frustrating.

    The bottom line is that you ask a few people to stand out on the hot blacktop for a few hours and give their opinions based on their experience. There's no point in arguing about it afterwards

    Brett
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 10:06:19 AM by Brett Buck »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2014, 12:55:48 PM »
Why did you let the up line out a notch?
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2014, 01:16:11 PM »
Why did you let the up line out a notch?

  Because I wanted more overall gain, but a notch on both sides was too much. It was already one notch closer to center on the up line for some unknown reason, so I just evened it up.

    Brett

p.s. as time has worn on (past 15 years or so), I have been speeding up my control gain in general. I guess as I have gotten better at getting engines to work right in the corners, I am more willing to enter corners more abruptly.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2014, 02:38:26 PM »
Points over 580 only cost $10.00 each.  LL~ LL~ LL~ Actually, there are so many Nats & WC winners living on the West Coast, the competition is merciless. If you're a 550-575 flyer, you will fly many contests and never get on the podium.

'Struth.  I'm practicing my heart out so I can get pushed out of Advanced and into Expert, where I will probably never win a trophy again.  No one said I'm sensible.
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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2014, 03:12:50 PM »
Not to change the subject here but I'm sort of surprized that there were only 4 entries in Classic/Super 70's. Guess everyone is waiting for VSC 26 in March. 8)
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2014, 03:42:45 PM »
Not to change the subject here but I'm sort of surprized that there were only 4 entries in Classic/Super 70's. Guess everyone is waiting for VSC 26 in March. 8)

  I was a little surprised about that one, but some of the regulars (Trostle and Whitely) didn't participate, and Jim didn't bring his Classic plane, either. I was more surprised about Advanced. Usually there are a lot of advanced fliers at local contests.

    Brett

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Results of Southwest Regional Control Line Championships.
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2014, 03:52:05 PM »

Mostly it was a great fun day...frankly I never thought dog eat dog competition could be so friendly and fun!

  That's pretty much what it always is, in my experience, and not just at the SWR. It doesn't get any more tense and taut that it did at the 2013 Golden State meet, and we all had fun. That's why we do it!

 The endless moronic arguing about anything and everything is almost exclusively an internet phenomenon. If you went by what you read here, you would expect every contest to end up in a fistfight or worse. In real life, we all shake hands and everybody moves on. The rare exceptions ar well known and probably the end result of a total of 4-5 individuals, uh, "efforts" over the ~30 years I have been seriously competing.

   I love going down to the SWR, the weather has always been pretty good, and everyone there makes you seem like just one of the boys. They couldn't be better hosts. I was the one who said it was run so well, it's like no one was running it at all. That's the highest praise possible in my book. Tremendous credit to Lou, the ladies at the tabulation desk, and the Cholla Choppers.

  
    Brett
« Last Edit: January 28, 2014, 08:37:35 PM by Brett Buck »


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