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Author Topic: Glow Plug Measurements  (Read 8301 times)

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2019, 10:34:52 AM »
Beautiful work, Lauri!
Have you try to mount on this cylinderhead in different positions? If yes, which one was better?
Istvan

Hi Istvan,

If you mean rotating the head in cylinder, then yes. Both by accident and from curiosity.
The wide squish band is supposed to be in rear of cylinder, meaning on exhaust side.
Anything else gives inferior results.
Or do you mean rotating the whole engine around shaft axis? Yes too, 40..45 degrees down from horizontal (cylinder) gives best result; perfect running symmetry. L
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 10:54:15 AM by Lauri Malila »

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2019, 03:28:25 PM »
Well,
The (outwards) laying engine gives an unbeatable advantage: the hole on the spraybar (or end of the carburettor nozzle) is at least 1/2 inch outer position than normal inverted, or standing arrangements. By my engines this is more: ca. 20 millimeters (4/5 inches).
Who is ready to make 2 x 1/2 or 2 x 4/5 inches wider fuselage to achieve this???  :)

Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2019, 03:32:45 PM »
Dear Lauri,
Sorry fo that my question was not clear enough: I asked only the cylinderhead position in the cylinder, but you answered already, thanks!

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2019, 05:29:34 PM »
Seeing stainless steel , theres heat resistant grades . some are useless for exhausts , See some info here , https://www.maperformance.com/blogs/maperformance-blog/77005123-409-and-304-stainless-steel-bet-you-didnt-know-these-details

Likely ' sucking eggs ' for these blokes , but w t h .

also , the spark plug bit , ' Protrudeing nose ' are anti fouling , bit like the four stroke glow plugs . But unsuitable for W F O use , as the nose melts , along with pistons & other bits .

The Lew Woolard Fox 40 set up , has a max. plug to piston dimension . Someone mentioned somesuch earlier .

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2019, 02:16:25 AM »
I believe I have related this story before...but some may find it relevant here.

We were testing a .15 powered Goodyear. A local flyer, who is a hard-core stunt guy came over to look. We were kicking around performance ideas and he suggested we try one of his "modified" glow plugs. He described rebuilding the plug with two separate elements to it. Only one was connected to the terminals for starting. The other was more of a flat GlowBee coil (or possibly a grid?) right at the face of the plug, if I recall correctly. My racing partner and mechanic was gung ho to try it out. Why not, it was my engine, not his!  So we connected the battery and it fired right up. After only a few seconds of running, there was a horrible, much lower pitched exhaust noise and we tried to shut it down immediately.

As best as I can figure, once the engine got going the combustion process activated the more exposed element. Since it was further into the combustion chamber--and was adding more heat-- it must have advanced the timing. The engine was already running at near peak and it was suddenly subjected to a radical amount of pre-ignition.

There are several things to learn here, but the one takeaway I won't forget is don't do experiments on your best engine. Even if your mechanic is elbowing you out of the way to get his hands on it. Always try it out on a mule first....  And preferably, his mule.

Divot McSlow

Offline John Mechura

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2019, 07:53:07 AM »
Greetings, Salutations and all that Rot,

My first post here, so here goes...   H^^

Platinum, rhodium and other dis-similar metals made me think that a glow plug may have characteristics of a thermo-couple.  So I got out my Fluke(R) multimeter that has thermocouple reading capability.  I was pleasantly surprised to see that the temperature readings of several assorted glow plugs was around 69*F at room temperature.  Heating it up with a match increased the temperature displayed, and letting it cool off decreased it back to room temperature. 

Unfortunately it was not a "perfect" thermocouple.  When heated up to be uncomfortable to hold in the fingers it registered around 80-82*F. 

Later this week I may fire up a nasty .35 Stunt on a test stand.  At such time I will repeat my test and report my observations on the running engine. 

The pros are that across several different makes of plugs the room temperature was fairly consistent. 

The con is that I have not tested it in a running engine and there may also be something that I have overlooked such as the composition of my test probes may be affecting the tiny voltage reading. 

I shall report back later this week.  I may be "full of it" on this issue but it seems possible so far. 

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2019, 11:07:58 AM »
Well,
The (outwards) laying engine gives an unbeatable advantage: the hole on the spraybar (or end of the carburettor nozzle) is at least 1/2 inch outer position than normal inverted, or standing arrangements. By my engines this is more: ca. 20 millimeters (4/5 inches).
Who is ready to make 2 x 1/2 or 2 x 4/5 inches wider fuselage to achieve this???  :)

   And why would you bother, when the problem is effectively solved (to the degree necessary) with completely conventional means and inverted mount?

    Don't get me wrong, I am impressed and fascinated with with your efforts, results,  and your machine shop capabilities, and what you and Lauri are doing is very interesting. You don't have appearance points to worry about, either.  But we haven't had these sorts of run asymmetry issues for a long time now, 15+ years in my case, and to be honest, it worked well enough in 1990 with a $200 production engine straight off an assembly line, if you set it up correctly. And I am particularly picky about it.


I see two differences - you (apparently) run at extremely low RPM, and don't use nitro. We use no plug shields, micron-fit piston rings, heat reservoirs, etc. We have completely conventional squish band/semi-hemi heads, glow plugs that used to cost 79 cents.  As far as I can tell, there are three relevant issues:
 
   proper carburetion/mixing (solved by spigot venturi and diffusers, perhaps by Belko's (effectively) plenum, too)
   reduced fuel system flow resistance
   internal gas dynamics around the ports and bypasses

   I would note that I didn't discover #1 and #3 (which were at least first described in print by Frank Williams), and # 2 used to be mentioned in the Fox 35 instruction sheet! I just call up and order them from the manufacturer, anyone else could get the same thing. The only real cost I see is the heroic fuel consumption (6.7 ounces of 10% for the little 61, and 8.5+ for the 75), you definitely have that beat.

   Note that I didn't mention pipe regulation, it resolves *other* issues like allowing you to run a superior prop as a more beneficial RPM, but I don't think it matters to this particular problem. I don't know for sure why anyone wants to run it at 8000 rpm with 6" of pitch, that is a different albatross. Maybe trying to run 60s-91s (10-15CC) engines, capable of maybe 7-8 HP in ideal conditions, at 1/2 horse, is a problem. It's not a problem for me, I am probably running 3/4 horse or so, 50% more, but still nothing compared to what it could do if pushed.

    I would note that we had these sorts of problems, and they drove us absolutely crazy, about 20 years ago, so I get the motivation  - it makes it much harder to fly stunt when the engine is changing all over the place. David, Ted, and I (and to a lesser extent, Paul Walker, I think) got on several engine manufacturer's semi-permanent poo-poo lists over the topic, and I got a particularly histrionic rant about it in person at the 2002 NATs, from someone whose engine screeched into a squeaky lean 2-stroke in every outside turn.

    So please don't interpret this as a criticism, I get why you want to solve it. But I just don't quite get the elaborate lengths and highly unconventional solutions to what we managed a long time ago with pretty ordinary (by comparison) approaches.

     Brett

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2019, 12:19:07 PM »
Brett,

There is so many ways to spend time with this hobby, you know :)
I know you don’t give negative criticism, and even if somebody does, I don’t really care. I do this (but I think I’ll fail to explain it fully) because: (not in any particular order)
-I’m obsessed with noise. Unfortunately your piped engines are too noisy for european scene, especially when we have to fly against electrics. I see the best potential in 7000...7500rpm range, it’s acoustically straightforward to handle and still does not require too big props that cause trimming issues.
-I find this mechanically and thermodynamically fascinating, and feel that I have something to prove. I’m quite lazy, and have found the best way to deal with it is to do every detail as well and correctly as possible. That way there is less surprises and waste of time. And I have nice tools and skills to use them, so why wouldn’t I?
I also have propably worlds best and most innovative engine people behind me, they find my ponderings equally interesting and help with things I can’t figure out by myself.
And I can guarantee that I don’t do things differently just for the sake of being different. I do it because I know that it’s a better way. I mean my sub-micron rings, integral AAC’s, diamond coatings etc. They all give a solid and super-stable foundation that makes it easier to focus on making the engine work as I want it to.
I think structurally our engine is as good as it can get, I can start focusing on scavenging now. But it takes some time as I’m quite slow.
And as I must drive nearly 200km/direction to practise, I have more time to think and make chips that fly. And if I compare my minimal practise with contest results, twice in row in top 20 of world champs, most of the credit goes to the engine. I’m especially happy with its performance in difficult conditions of France, where the technology that you represent was in trouble. And with no nitro!
I don’t understand your argument about appearance points. Are the models supposed to look like real airplanes or are they looking at workmanship only? L


Offline Istvan Travnik

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2019, 03:41:24 PM »
Dear Brett,
I am a little bit confused: your anwser seemed to be addressed either me, or Lauri.
Well, Lauri has absolute superior workshop, precisity and comrades (maybe he tell the names), while I have not.
I want to simply enjoy my sport/hobby, as I do it for right half a century.
Sometimes I faced with problems, and that moment I think to myself: "Why I follow the conventional way? Who pays to me to be a goodboy, instead of being a thinking, innovative engineer, as I am? ".
To solve vibration tragedies I worked out my "bluefoam model", to solve engine asimmetries came the laying/slope engine, to keep the model's nose somehow goodlooking, came the the "backwards spinning" silencer below the engine, etc. etc. 
If somebody grants me some personal attention, that is my special bonus :)   
Istvan

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2019, 08:58:18 PM »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2019, 09:01:42 PM »
No offence intended . Just a a slight typo . Nevertheless . . . .

Quote
And as I must drive nearly 200km/direction to practise, I have more time to think and make chips that fly.



Deadly Serial now folks .

Quote
Fireball  HOT plugs are  good  IF you can find ones with good seal, They are mostly BAD on sealing plugs, and  most I have tried Still leak

By the way , the ' FIREBALL ' Plug Seal , back in the 70's , the trick was on NEW Fireballs - to use Aryldite about the post / seal ,
applied with a toothpick . to anchor the post & support the ceramic insulator . on ' B ' team racers .
With the Plug Wire connection fitted , they were pron to blown / broken seals . This seemed to resolve that problem .
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 06:42:24 PM by Matt Spencer »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #61 on: January 08, 2019, 09:06:37 PM »
I don’t understand your argument about appearance points. Are the models supposed to look like real airplanes or are they looking at workmanship only? L

  You will generally get more points if the engine is neatly cowled in, and using rear-exhaust engines with inverted mounts is a very neat way to do it, and engines hanging out the side are not as neat.

    Again, I am not taking pot-shots at what you are doing, but you will have a heck of a time competing with electric if you are running 7000 rpm and the associated 7.5" of pitch, almost no matter how you go about it. That will require something extraordinary, engines that predict the future...

   I am very impressed with your skills and what you are doing, but as you say, you can certainly partake of stunt however you want, far be it for me to say otherwise. If it's fun, please proceed!  I am trying to inquire so I learn something.

   I am still mystified at how you corrode stainless steel in a model engine.

     Brett

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #62 on: January 08, 2019, 09:12:45 PM »
Quote
To evaluate the effect of heat treatment on the cavitation erosion resistance of stainless steel, an experimental investigation is carried out using a cavitating jet test apparatus complying with the ASTM G134 standard. The jet pressure is 30 MPa and the cavitation number is 0.014. Specimens made of stainless steel SUS630 are aged at different temperatures. Prior to cavitation erosion experiment, the mechanical properties of the specimens are obtained through an inverse analysis method in conjunction with the indentation test. The material's cavitation erosion resistance is represented by the reciprocal of the maximum cumulative mass loss rate. The correlation between cavitation erosion resistance and mechanical parameters is pursued. The variation of cumulative mass loss with the exposure time under cavitating jet impact demonstrates that the rise of aging temperature impairs the cavitation erosion resistance of SUS630. The overall cumulative mass loss rate of SUS630 is lower than that of SUS316L. The correlations between cavitation erosion resistance and mechanical parameters are evident. The parameter of microhardness exhibits the most explicit relevance with respect to the cavitation erosion resistance.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2019, 04:45:57 PM »
Plug elements have variously been reported as platinum, or tungsten that is plated, or contain some rhodium, or..... 

Unless rhodium, even in small alloying amounts, would significantly improve the plug performance, I really doubt anyone is using it. It is about 3 times the cost of platinum currently, and about twice the cost of gold. (Strange, I thought platinum was more expensive than gold...?)

Twenty inches of .008" platinum wire is going for about $110, retail, today.  (Sigma-Aldrich: medical grade)  The wire in a dissected OS A3 plug was 0.2 mm (~.0078") and as a guess about 0.7" to 0.8" long. It was also very ductile and "soft."  I doubt it had a tungsten core.

Does anyone know what is being used? I assume most plug makers would declare it proprietary to avoid discussions of whose plug is "better."

They almost certainly are buying the wire from a supplier--and possibly they are all using the same supplier.

Dave

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2019, 05:27:28 PM »
    Does anyone remember Iskandar Taib? He was living in this country while going to school years ago and used to frequent the forums years ago. I hope I have his name right. he moved back home to the far east after completing his education and still posted on Stuka Stunt at least. he put out a call for people to donate glow plugs of any age and manufacture so he could analyze them for content and such, as they had the lab equipment where he was working to do that.. This was probably longer ago than I think, but I don't remember him ever posting that he got very far with it, but if he did, any results would sure add to this discussion. Just wondering out loud so to speak.
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Offline qaz049

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2019, 09:13:53 PM »

Iskandar moved  to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia I believe. I exchanged messages with him last in 2014 or 15. He was still flying combat locally then. Occasionally posts in other forums, last one was May 2017.  Probably just inactive. I do have a contact channel.

Offline qaz049

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2019, 09:32:02 PM »
    Does anyone remember Iskandar Taib? He was living in this country while going to school years ago and used to frequent the forums years ago. I hope I have his name right. he moved back home to the far east after completing his education and still posted on Stuka Stunt at least. he put out a call for people to donate glow plugs of any age and manufacture so he could analyze them for content and such, as they had the lab equipment where he was working to do that.. This was probably longer ago than I think, but I don't remember him ever posting that he got very far with it, but if he did, any results would sure add to this discussion. Just wondering out loud so to speak.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

He did, but on another forum. The details are buried in this discussion.


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/glow-engines-114/10626380-glow-plug-patents-design-2.html
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 11:41:32 PM by qaz049 »

Offline Garf

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2019, 03:59:20 PM »
Garf
Very interesting ..... all a bit different .... Thanks for the pictures ..... how many thumbs did you grind off getting these sectioned?
Frank
I did not do the butchering. I stole the picture.

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2019, 12:46:28 PM »
I cannot LOG into my Yahoo account...but I still get Combat Group E-mails...Iskandar Taib is still member and still active as of last week

I already deleted the thread so can not provide a back channel e-mail to Iskandar Taib


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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2019, 04:03:09 PM »
Back in the '60's, there was a sudden drop in the price of glowplugs, from nearly $2 down to 49 cents or so. I recall some speculation that they were just using iron wire instead of platinum/rhodium/iridium alloy.

My thought was to contact Ohlsson Corporation and ask for any information they are willing to share. It's too bad the guy at Merlin died, because he apparently manufactured his own glowplugs. I don't know about McCoy glowplugs, but Ohlsson Corp. makes so many brands (K&B and Thunderbolt for sure), that it would seem possible they make at least some of the other brands. No? Si? Anybody really know who makes their own and whose are made by somebody else? The only ones I'm against (now that Fox has folded) are Fireballs...bad seals way back in the '60's, but I don't know about current designs. Maybe they're ok now? I am a fanboy of Thunderbolts, for sure.  D>K Steve
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Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2019, 04:28:45 PM »
Early Enya's #1 and #2 used nichrome coils but switched to platinum alloy with the #3.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #71 on: January 11, 2019, 06:19:24 PM »
Early Enya's #1 and #2 used nichrome coils but switched to platinum alloy with the #3.

     I'm no chemist, but I do not believe that nickle/chromium wire would react with the alcohol in fuel? I have never heard nor read that anywhere before.

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Offline qaz049

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #72 on: January 11, 2019, 06:36:54 PM »
     I'm no chemist, but I do not believe that nickle/chromium wire would react with the alcohol in fuel? I have never heard nor read that anywhere before.

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

The Enya plugs were possibly Nichrome coated with Platinum. Both Nichrome and Copper will work as Catalysts with Methanol but are inferior to Platinum alloys. Plenty of evidence in the Chemical Literature.

It seems that Isky's work with the Spectroscope indicates that there are only a few different Platinum alloys used in commercial glowplugs, and that the composition of the former does (in some way) effect the degree of "hotness" or "coldness" of the plug.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #73 on: January 11, 2019, 06:50:38 PM »
Netzeband, in his seminal September 1960 article, listed two early OS plug elements as "iron?".  He obviously suspected, but did not know that an iron element was being used. If we had one, just break off an element and give it the magnetic test.

I've never heard that iron was a catalyst for methanol, so I'm not sure how well it would work. It would depend completely on the heat from combustion and the mixture compression.

Dave


PS--Follow-up on resistance measurement discussion--

For it to behave like a thermocouple, you need a dissimilar metal junction. Using multiple junctions in reverse order might serve to cancel out the induced voltage? I never tried this; I always wanted the best calibrated single junction performance.

Offline qaz049

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #74 on: January 11, 2019, 07:03:23 PM »
Netzeband, in his seminal September 1960 article, listed two early OS plug elements as "iron?".  He obviously suspected, but did not know that an iron element was being used. If we had one, just break off an element and give it the magnetic test.

I've never heard that iron was a catalyst for methanol, so I'm not sure how well it would work. It would depend completely on the heat from combustion and the mixture compression.

Dave

It may have been Ferrite, from the low carbon phase of the Iron/Carbon system (Fe with .008%C). It can be alloyed with Nickel and has Catalytic properties. It's mentioned in the chemical literature and I suspect that it's not magnetic.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2019, 10:04:05 PM »
Qaz,

The use of ferrites/ferrocene looks like a fairly new use as a methanol catalyst. Probably not from pre-1960. Of course, more research might prove otherwise.

In the attached source, they do claim that the effectiveness of platinum, which is the highest of any single element, is improved by alloying with other elements. Hence, the platinum-iridium listed in the original Wild Bill article, and presumably the more recent use of rhodium, as well. I could not find anything that described quantitatively how much more effective, or if it was more effective at lower temperatures, which might help us--but not too low, I'd rather not have spontaneously starting engines.

Dave

From the abstract of the paper on catalysts for sensing applications by Donglin Zhang and Yijun Tang,

The key component in chemical sensing is the sensor which often relies on catalysts to oxidize methanol. The most effective catalyst is platinum [8-10], although non-platinum catalysts have also been reported [11-13]. The addition of some other transition metals such as gold, ruthenium, etc. enhances the catalytic ability of platinum [14-18]. The supporting materials for the catalysts are also important in designing new chemical sensors. Various materials have been reported for this purpose including newly-emerging materials such as conductive polymer and nanoscale materials [19,20]. Poly (vinylferrocene) or PVF, a conductive polymer, conducts electrons through successive redox processes or electron "hopping".

Offline Brian Hampton

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #76 on: January 13, 2019, 04:08:09 PM »
From Bob Allan's Enya Compendium

Glow Plugs
The earliest Enya glow plugs that we know of, appeared around the early to mid 1950’s, and were named “CAM-GLO”. These were the familiar Enya shape, and each individual plug came in a small box stating that – “A good engine requires & deserves a good glow plug”. It is not known if these plugs were made by, or for the Enya Company but also written on the plug box was “An “Enya” product “ and underneath, “The Camco Corporation”. These plugs were 2 volt maximum, as were the following (now simply branded as “The ENYA” ) No. 1 and 2.
These later plugs were manufactured by Enya in at least six different types, the very early No. 1 & 2 plugs had a nickel-chromium element (ni-chrome) for use with 2 volt wet cells, and identified by a black body with gold top. These plugs were sold in boxes of 10, the boxes being either red/white or red/yellow.

Offline qaz049

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Re: Glow Plug Measurements
« Reply #77 on: January 13, 2019, 07:34:25 PM »
From Bob Allan's Enya Compendium

Glow Plugs
The earliest Enya glow plugs that we know of, appeared around the early to mid 1950’s, and were named “CAM-GLO”. These were the familiar Enya shape, and each individual plug came in a small box stating that – “A good engine requires & deserves a good glow plug”. It is not known if these plugs were made by, or for the Enya Company but also written on the plug box was “An “Enya” product “ and underneath, “The Camco Corporation”. These plugs were 2 volt maximum, as were the following (now simply branded as “The ENYA” ) No. 1 and 2.
These later plugs were manufactured by Enya in at least six different types, the very early No. 1 & 2 plugs had a nickel-chromium element (ni-chrome) for use with 2 volt wet cells, and identified by a black body with gold top. These plugs were sold in boxes of 10, the boxes being either red/white or red/yellow.


Brian, sounds reasonable.


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