stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dick Pacini on December 14, 2015, 09:36:30 AM
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http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19856
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And CL too.
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And CL too.
No. We are not users of the national airspace because we never lose contact with the ground. However, I expect almost no one to know this and not draw that distinction. So expect problems.
Brett
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I don't see how this could possibly be enforceable.
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I don't see how this could possibly be enforceable.
I am sure that it isn't. Most people don't realize this, but from the mid-30's to sometime in the late 70's/early 80's, any gas model was supposed to be registered with the FAA (or CAA). All RC operators on anything other than the "garbage band" were supposed to have a radio operators license. I am sure that we all got right on that yearly fee, right?
The topper is the actual law (not a regulation) that prevents the FAA from regulating model aircraft. I would *hope*, if not expect, the AMA to challenge the new rule in court, and I cannot see how the FAA has a leg to stand on. In fact, I would hope (but not expect) the AMA to pursue a restraining order ASAP. It appears to be black-letter law. When someone gets hauled into court over this, I would certainly expect existing law to be the first argument.
What actually happens will reveal exactly how the AMA views their function.
Brett
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http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/
According to the Q/A listed here, both tethered and non tethered UAS must be registered.
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No. We are not users of the national airspace because we never lose contact with the ground. However, I expect almost no one to know this and not draw that distinction. So expect problems.
Brett
From the Q&A on the website:
Q. What about tethered drones?
A. Both tethered and untethered UAS must be registered.
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So if we register before the deadline the $5 charge is refunded and it covers our entire fleet. The number has to be visible on "close inspection" and can be inside a hatch. For a government agency this appears to be quite user friendly. I really can't blame people for being concerned what with all the negative publicity about idiots and their drones. Did anyone else see the utube by the young man who had the 9mm pistol on his drone? Now he has a flame thrower roasting a turkey.
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Russell, do you think that guy will register his 9 mm non drone? When he does something stupid with it, all of the local registered people will immediately be added to the list of suspects. No thanks!
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Perhaps the AMA could forward a list of AMA members and their respective AMA license numbers to the regulatory agency for assignment of FAA numbers. Subsequently, any new AMA members would be issued dual registration numbers.
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Russell, do you think that guy will register his 9 mm non drone? When he does something stupid with it, all of the local registered people will immediately be added to the list of suspects. No thanks!
When he does something stupid he can be hit with $27,500-$250,000 in fines and 3 years in jail for not being registered.
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I am sure that it isn't. Most people don't realize this, but from the mid-30's to sometime in the late 70's/early 80's, any gas model was supposed to be registered with the FAA (or CAA). All RC operators on anything other than the "garbage band" were supposed to have a radio operators license. I am sure that we all got right on that yearly fee, right?
The topper is the actual law (not a regulation) that prevents the FAA from regulating model aircraft. I would *hope*, if not expect, the AMA to challenge the new rule in court, and I cannot see how the FAA has a leg to stand on. In fact, I would hope (but not expect) the AMA to pursue a restraining order ASAP. It appears to be black-letter law. When someone gets hauled into court over this, I would certainly expect existing law to be the first argument.
What actually happens will reveal exactly how the AMA views their function.
Brett
It only took 12 years for rocketry to defeat the BATF in their lawsuit. Any takers on how long it would take AMA litigation to win vs the FAA?
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Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.
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Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.
I need to find a job like that! Getting paid with no productivity or accountability sounds appealing. VD~
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Perhaps the AMA could forward a list of AMA members and their respective AMA license numbers to the regulatory agency for assignment of FAA numbers. Subsequently, any new AMA members would be issued dual registration numbers.
Great idea. And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.
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Great idea. And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.
Howard, you mean like the FAI accepted our existing AMA numbers instead of issuing something totally different?
I've got a secret for you: bureaucracies don 't work that way!
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I hope someone has actdually passed this suggestion on to the AMA.
Great idea. And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.
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I agree that this is unnecessary and ridiculous and all that, but, having looked up the details on this, it appears that it's not a particularly burdensome requirement for us.
We will have to go to a website, register, pay a $5 fee (refunded if you do it before Jan. 20), and get a number that you put somewhere on your airplanes.
And then forget about it.
I don't like it, but I could live with it.
... or, like Brett says, you could ignore the whole thing and most likely the issue would never come up.
I probably will go along with it because I fly on three publicly owned sites, two at airports and one at a county park, and some bureaucrat could find out about the requirement and raise the question. I can just point at the number and make the problem go away.
--jt
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Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.
Jim,
I was a gubm't employee for 22 years.......... You couldn't have hit the nail more squarely on the head if you had a microscope! (Or some kind of scope)
IMO, (the people that I worked with) they were the lamest bunch of lazy idiots on this planet. Couldn't survive in the real world even if HELL froze over! And YES, I was the outcast trying to buck the system. Didn't get anywhere and I finally went into business for myself. (Land Surveying)
Tight lines, Jerry
PS: I'm NOT saying ALL gubm't employees are lazy, just the ones I worked with/for.
PPS: Seemed like the higher up you went the worse it got. And talking with a friend of mine who was on my survey crew says its 10 times worse now because of all the political CRAP that is in play. I think it is time to kick political correctness in the butt and go back to the way it was.....
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Within the like by the OP is a link to the entire FAA rule
http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf
I highly recommend several here who are much smarter than I to read all of it as I just did
They think they can withstand a legal argument and so state
And to be clear: as I read it, the $5 registration (to be renewed every three years) is PER EACH UAS we own and operate in the NAS
OK, say I go on line to register; I need to get one unique registration number to affix to each of my 17 airplanes =$85...or because they do not have any way to know I get one number and place it on my plane before flight....?? hummm
Come on fellows someone else read it and let me know if I missed something
Edited in as I just read the FAQs and they say one time $5 to be put on one or more UAS....but that contradicts what is in their IFR in several places they clearly say:
"48.30 Fees.
(a) The fee for issuing or renewing a Certificate of Aircraft Registration for aircraft
registered in accordance with § 48.100(a) is $5.00 per aircraft.
(b) The fee for issuing or renewing a Certificate of Aircraft Registration for aircraft
registered in accordance with § 48.100(b) is $5.00 per certificate. "
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What's next our guns?
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It only took 12 years for rocketry to defeat the BATF in their lawsuit. Any takers on how long it would take AMA litigation to win vs the FAA?
A better question is whether they even *want* to oppose it.
Brett
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It appears that AMA has endorsed accepting drones into model aviation even though 90% of the users or better are not interested in joining AMA and following our safety/guidelines.....................
John
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A big question is enforcement. Will there be FAA agents out looking for model airplanes? Could a bunch of them descend on the NATS or other major contests to check compliance and to issue violation paperwork? Will FAA registration be required by AMA to participate in a sanctioned contest?
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All of you guys who are so pissed at the AMA all the time for Drone ads and worthless content in MA should be hoppin' mad over this nonsense!
I may as well have the one who lobbied for us on this one. Would have had the same outcome and cost alot less. Sheesh, just goes to show you who really swings the bat and it isnt the AMA.
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The $5 per UAV is for commercial users. Hobbyists get their entire fleet for $5. I'll sign up and put the number under the wing and forget about it. The fines may keep some of the crazier idiots in line - after a few huge fines the word should get around.
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I like this question that was not answered honestly
Q: Someone intent on harm will not register a drone, so doesn't this requirement just penalize responsible people who are excited about UAS?
A: Although no system or requirement is 100 percent effective against people intent on doing harm, registration heightens public awareness about what safe UAS operations look like. In addition, registration establishes a shared understanding that operating this type of aircraft for business or pleasure comes with certain responsibilities and expectations and that the public will be watching for and reporting bad actors, just as they do today for other safety and security-related concerns. Registration also enables us to educate UAS owners on safe operations.
This is a money grab and will offer no protection.
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I'm not paying for anything. I'm an AMA member already and that should be enough. The FAA can bite me for all I care. Operating an aircraft that is tethered to the ground is not an aircraft operating in the NAS.
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I'm not paying for anything. I'm an AMA member already and that should be enough. The FAA can bite me for all I care. Operating an aircraft that is tethered to the ground is not an aircraft operating in the NAS.
You might not have a choice Matt .... if contest directors and flying clubs adopt policies to include your FAA registration. This is a very real possibility now .... we just haven't got that far.
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Guess I'll just go ahead and pony up. I can work the new number into the new airplane I'm painting now. I've been known to dabble with my free flight stuff and even a little OTFF R/C assist once in a while. Doubt I can duck those. I've put my New Ruler up as a speck over my head a few times then glided down. I know it shows on the radar at the airport a few miles away. I can count on a chopper or small plane to come over and check me out when I do.
Dave
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You might not have a choice Matt .... if contest directors and flying clubs adopt policies to include your FAA registration. This is a very real possibility now .... we just haven't got that far.
The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that
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Today in Fort Worth it was about 70 degrees, sunny, and the wind finally calmed down to a light breeze. I went to the field to get in a few flights this afternoon. We have a circle at an RC site. Several of the RC guys were talking about this registration scheme and nobody is happy.
The question most have is: What is the purpose of this registration? What is it to accomplish? Of course, with the government behind this, I do not expect logic to prevail.
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The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that
One AMA number and "Per airplane??"
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What's next our guns?
They have been trying to do that for quite a while now. The next step is that we have to tattoo the registration number on our arm.
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OK--- I try not to let too many know my IQ is NOT way up there, or my political leanings, or other social views on these forums but---
I was deeply involved with this crap (government rule/law making) as a licensed Amateur radio operator a few years ago when FCC desired to drop some testing requirements. I learned how to read the proposal, present rational comments, and then read their assessment of the comments followed by their accepting the public comment or rejecting same and why.....Then the convoluted way of making it all conform to Federal and Constitutional law
In this case I don't personally give tinkers damn about non compliant terrorists...no law will stop the non compliant or brain dead scoff laws in our society. The AMA did not start or promote this government intrusion and cost.... neither did terrorists... me first selfish ass holes did----- such is the cost of bad parenting and too much government intrusion into what used to be functional families----lost during post Viet Nam non –news reporting and our invasive PC correct culture
I read all of our forum bull about shooting down drones for sport, or some perceived idea that they were spying on our daughters and wives naked in the back yard…. Real bad ideas for obvious reasons. Then we have the "don't want the police spying on MY CASTLE" and there is some merit to that paranoia.
Fact is selfish citizens with no critical thinking skills have been using the new technology to potentially or actually causing loss of life, property damage, and hindering first responders to do what we pay them to do. Does not matter if a Channel 9 News crew is trying to get a first on the scene video, or some you tube wanna be...the fact is, these brain dead unthinking ass holes have screwed all of us law abiding folk by their actions...NOT THE AMA..... AMA and money chasing are entirely different set of arguments we the Control line community (and other disciplines) have.
Since 1947 with Jim Walker RTF/ARF--- to present, there have always been folks who just want to have fun be it designing and building then flying ---OR, the 8 year old who's dad bought a Cox PT-19 that lasted one short flight
The argument that DRONES are not areo modeling is BS (IMO)
In front of me right now is a 6" long CH47 (Chinook) micro helicopter that I can charge, take off, hover, and fly around my 16x24 shop without crashing. This toy cost me $24 and uses micro surface mount Tx/RX, accelerometers, gyro, and RF/IR technology to fly stably for my enjoyment....a lot of this technology is born from the desires of the Remote control of MODELS community we are all part of
Two years ago I bought a $129 Blade MCX2 that used this capability to let me play with a helicopter without the deep expense of learning to fly real model helicopters….
Go ask Tim Westcott if the TUT is not striving to exploit advanced electronic miniaturized components and software capable of using the data…Point is we all have something to gain by a lot of this technology
I personally think the FAA just spent a few hundred million we don’t have for very little real impact on the potential hazard of UAS in the NAS…. Like most laws, they only impact is to those of us who already are good law abiding citizens (basically) and making us even more and more disgusted with our government
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The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that
Yup, I just saw that email as well .... one could hope that the AMA and FAA could streamline something for us abiding modelers.
I was also thinking of next month's KOI which I'm sure your attending.. as I am... its on a military installation. I'm sure Gene may have an addendum to his waiver form.
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We all know there is no common sense in government. And, the quick bucks being made in the hobby industry and Model Aviation magazine are hurting everyone of us.
Typically the Gov't's answer is another law that does nothing.
Store and hobby shop owners are interested in sales only. Today I was in a hobby shop and a "drone" was being sold. They discussed being able to add a camera to the drone. There was absolutely no mention of getting a license, AMA or other wise.
The question regarding tethered aircraft is associated specifically with drones:
Q. What about tethered drones?
A. Both tethered and untethered UAS must be registered
Hopefully AMA can get approval for using out AMA numbers, but I have doubts that AMA has CL on their priority list.
Next thing the gov't will require is a tattoo number on our wrists
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If the AMA is trying to get AMA numbers accepted by the feds, will the AMA accept the fed numbers at contests?
I think I all ready know the answer!
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This is a money grab and will offer no protection.
At the very best, it will in some way permit them to go after someone who had an innocent accident. But of course not those intent on harm. It's not really even a money grab - it's a "look, we are doing something about drones" (even if it is useless) PR stunt.
Brett
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Next issue - when you "register" your airplane, what will you put in the "serial number" slot? The AMA number tells them who, but not which of your half-dozen models you are registering.
Brett
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NOTE I see that while I was typing, Jim Svitko was thinking as I am.
Next question: Will CDs be required to police this under penalty of the law??
There is no way that this will be rescinded before the end of February.
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Any body for tether cars or boats? Don't let'em bounce into the air though.
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Anyone else read how this registration number is to be displayed? If I read it correctly, if your plane has an inner area accessible thru a hatch that can be removed without tools you can put the number in that compartment. So, I guess this means that if I have an accessible area under the stab to make elevator clevis adjustments and the hatch can be removed without tools I can put the number on the inside of the fuselage. Looks like those small magnets will come in handy.
On other planes I suppose I can print the number using a fairly small font and tape it to the bottom of the stab.
If the AMA is unsuccessful in getting rid of this registration scheme, I would expect that any model entered in a sanctioned contest will be required to display the number.
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This is ludicrous, these drone things are being sold literally everywhere. I have seen them in 7/11's, gas stations, Staples office supply to name a few. So does this mean that after December 21st someone who purchases one must be registered with the government prior to purchase? What about one bought as a gift? Who is supposed to register? The buyer? The recipient? The FAA link states the reason for this is that 1.5 million drones are supposed to be sold in 2015, most in the 4th quarter. Well if 1,500,000 drones are opened on Christmas day, on December 26th 1,499,000 will be in pieces and the new pilots will move on to other interests. This is a money grab and a power grab. Any lawyers in the crowd looking for some pro bono work?
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I just sent this short note to AMA:
The FAA guidelines talk about "Tethered Drones". Are CL models considered "Tethered Drones"?
Will Contest Directors be required to police FAA registration numbers under penalty of law?
Tom Niebuhr
CD 7544
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I'm with Matt. I will not comply with this absolutely ridiculous rule. I currently have 9 airplanes under construction. Am I supposed to register them one at a time when they are finished or all at once.
Also I read the stupid rule and I could not find any exclusion for CL aircraft. Further as I read it, it is per aircraft for both types of ownership.
Randy Cuberly!
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I'm with Matt. I will not comply with this absolutely ridiculous rule. I currently have 9 airplanes under construction. Am I supposed to register them one at a time when they are finished or all at once.
Also I read the stupid rule and I could not find any exclusion for CL aircraft. Further as I read it, it is per aircraft for both types of ownership.
Randy Cuberly!
Just register an airplane ..... the FAA number will cover all your planes.
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Q. Do I have to provide any information on my UAS?
A. Individual recreational users do not have to enter the make, model, and serial number. All non-recreational users will be required to provide the make, model, and serial number when the website is available to all other user
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Full FAQ can be found here .....
https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/#cov
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Assanine Government overreach trying to control every aspect of your life. I will not comply either and it will be impossible to enforce.
Mike
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So if you are a non citizen terrorist you don't have to/can't register your UAV
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This makes me sick. The lawmakers have honorable intentions but the reg is just full of stupid. CL falling into this bracket is ludicrous. I suppose the next reg will be the model air frame and control lines have to be inspected by an official FAA DAR to get the certificate...then we will have to get licenses to fly them. Better get ready to see model flying at airports and pubic areas outlawed too. AMA seemed to be very mum on this new law until now...must be some profit in this for them and using the AMA number will keep them in the $$$ loop. They have no power on this one and in my opinion are joining in to support the law and maintain a pc status with the lawmakers. The talk about creating another organization to support the hobby is beginning to make more sense today than it did yesterday.
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The list I saw of "advisors" on the committee was about 20 or so organizations, AMA was just one of them including Google. A lot more people with more juice than our august representative organization.
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It seems to me that it would be easy to overract to this.
What they are asking us to do is register, get a number and stick it on our airplanes.
You could refuse, save $5 over three years -- and get kicked out of a flying session because an official with the park or airport where you fly finds out you're not registered.
Or you could get the number, stick it on your plane, and go flying like always.
Seems like not a big deal to me.
--jt
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I just don't see our models being affected by these rules. We are not even capable of operating our models in the N.A.S. This a lot of conflicting statements about control of the models. The AMA says "Like a transmitter".
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Has anyone else read: "Small UAS Notice of Proposal Rule Making" (faa(dot)gov/uas/nprm)? Second paragraph begins "New rule would not apply to model aircraft". Does this mean the FAA in an unexpected moment of clarity actually differentiates between model aircraft and drones? Could control line models not be considered drones after all? Probably too good to hope for however a clarification is needed here. ???
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AMA and the FAA Registration Process
Today the FAA announced plans for a model aircraft registration process to begin next week. AMA was a member of the task force that helped develop recommendations for this registration rule and argued throughout the process that registration makes sense at some level but only for those operating outside the guidance of a community-based organization or flying for commercial purposes.
Unfortunately, the new FAA registration rule does not include our advice. The rule is counter to Congress's intent in the Special Rule for Model Aircraft and makes the registration process an unnecessary burden for all of our members who have been operating safely for decades.
While we are disappointed with the new registration rule and still maintain that AMA members should be exempt from registration, the rule is being implemented over AMA objections. Therefore, we want to provide you with important information about the registration rule and how AMA members can comply with the new federal requirements:
All aircraft that are flown using a ground control system, such as a transmitter, are required to participate. This includes fixed-wing aircraft, not just multirotors or drones.
Any pilot flying models weighing between .55 pounds (or 250 grams) and 55 lbs is required to register.
You will not be required to register every aircraft individually. You only need to register yourself and can affix one registration number to all your aircraft.
You must mark all aircraft with your registration number. The number can be inside the aircraft, such as a battery hatch - but should not require tools to access.
The FAA plans to launch the online registration website on Monday, December 21.
There is a $5 fee to register, which is waived if you register within the first 30 days.
You only need to register once every 3 years.
We are still working out the logistics for this process. Some details are still being discussed, including:
We are seriously discussing with the FAA a system where your AMA number could be used as your federal registration number as well. At this point, this is only a proposal and details are not yet finalized.
At this time, AMA members will not automatically be registered when the registration website launches next week. However, we are in conversations with the FAA about the best way to streamline the registration process for AMA members going forward.
This is an ongoing process and we will continue to provide updates on the registration rule. Stay tuned to modelaircraft.org/gov, social media and your email for the latest news on the registration process.
Thank you,
AMA Government Relations and Advocacy Team
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Just think of the money this will generate in the first day. 1500000 drones x $5.00 is $7,500,000 and you think it's not a money grab?
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You might notice it says the first 30 days will be FREE. Rather that 1.5 million will sign up- more likely 1500. Not much of a hair-on-fire thing......
Dave
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I'm going to go ahead and sign up now while it's free. That way if the law is still in place three years from now I can start saving towards the $5 re-up. I'm sure I can cut back somewhere and have the funds in place when the time comes.
Jim
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The easiest way that the FAA could put some meaning into enforcement would be to show up at contests....
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What's to prevent some non-law abiding no-gooder from stealing my number, putting it on his drone and doing some bad things? If all they find is the drone, I'm in trouble!
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I sent an Email to the AMA and this is the response:
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Great idea. And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.
No it would NOT!!
The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also.. before a lot worse thing happened.. This is only a difference in degree.. boiling the frog one degree at a time..
American people (hopefully NOT Sheeple..) need to wake up..
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I sent an Email to the ASMA and this is the response:
Does the regulation actually say that somewhere?
Brett
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No it would NOT!!
The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also.. before a lot worse thing happened.. This is only a difference in degree.. boiling the frog one degree at a time..
American people (hopefully NOT Sheeple..) need to wake up..
Actually it would be nothing at all like that. It would be like registering your car, which is not the same as making an entire race register because those in power fear the perceived influence of said race.
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Guys, i was just over on RC GROUPS reading the threads on that forum. There are some upset people over there and some really good posts on this.
Mike
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things that require registration and things that don't
Birds Birds! Birds damage airplanes and are not registered.
google bird strike some time
then google drone strike.
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No it would NOT!!
The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also.. before a lot worse thing happened.. This is only a difference in degree.. boiling the frog one degree at a time..
OH, good Lord! It's irritating, it's certainly governmental overreach, and in general should be opposed. But registering a model airplane is a far cry from *planning the genocide of an entire race/religion* using the most fundamentally idiotic, evil, and racist supposed justifications imaginable. It absolutely IS NOT a matter of degree, it is fundamentally different.
Brett
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The easiest way that the FAA could put some meaning into enforcement would be to show up at contests....
Let's see if a couple of field reps show up at Joe Nall and try to make an example out of someone.
Mike
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Maybe if the FAA does show up, we could make an example of THEM!
I for one am getting sick of government retardation.
We need to start drug testing the government officials. They are clearly smoking something thinking that this new regulation is going to make the NAS safer from the "drone problem".
Just as with gun control, the problem children will continue, and the others will pay the price.
This is SO RETARDED.
And the AMA is weak for not taking a less PC stance. Instead, they wanted to suck up to the Multi Rotor pilots, cause they are their future.
WEAK!
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Maybe if they do show up, we could make an example of THEM!
Yes, that will certainly show us to be a mature and responsible group, qualified to police ourselves.
I think we need to step off the ledge. It's one thing to challenge the ruling and there are some pretty clear avenues on which to challenge it - including black-letter law exempting us entirely for FAA regulation. Assaulting, verbally or electronically harassing, or otherwise confronting individual agents in the field is *absolutely the worst possible thing you could do*. If for no other reason is that it justifies any future arguments about reining us in.
This is not the Stamp Act, this isn't even the Boston Tea Party (where, I might add, no one was assaulted), and the FAI isn't King George. You have abundant means of redress, you just have to avail yourself of them.
This *is* a classic example of leftist/liberal approach to government, where laws are passed that pass the responsibility for regulation to unelected, and unaccountable bureaucrats. It is rampant and shouldn't happen. But you can't put a halt to that by shouting at FAA field reps.
Brett
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I fly CL on my own land. Don't fly competitive, so the AMA and FAA can just kid my a..
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What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats? I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?
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Yeah Dave. My grandson fly's pipelines and had a bird strike bad enough to have to replace the wing on his plane. That was three or four weeks ago. Then saturday after thanksgiving he blew a cyl. and had to make an emergency landing. All went well. He still loves his job.
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What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats? I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?
That is a perfect example of how ridiculous this whole thing is. Its never going to be enforced, in my opinion, and I will be willing to bet that eventually C/L is exempt as it should be.
The fact that it made it this far shows how much trouble we are in with our elected government today.
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Yes, that will certainly show us to be a mature and responsible group, qualified to police ourselves.
I think we need to step off the ledge. It's one thing to challenge the ruling and there are some pretty clear avenues on which to challenge it - including black-letter law exempting us entirely for FAA regulation. Assaulting, verbally or electronically harassing, or otherwise confronting individual agents in the field is *absolutely the worst possible thing you could do*. If for no other reason is that it justifies any future arguments about reining us in.
This is not the Stamp Act, this isn't even the Boston Tea Party (where, I might add, no one was assaulted), and the FAI isn't King George. You have abundant means of redress, you just have to avail yourself of them.
This *is* a classic example of leftist/liberal approach to government, where laws are passed that pass the responsibility for regulation to unelected, and unaccountable bureaucrats. It is rampant and shouldn't happen. But you can't put a halt to that by shouting at FAA field reps.
Brett
Yes, Brett, of course I would never act on these thoughts, however, I'm not promising that a sharp tongued comment wouldn't be heard from me.
This whole thing is ridiculous for the RC side of things (in MY opinion), but its just plain stupid for C/L.
I'll bet they rescind the C/L plane requirements, but they should have never included them in the first place.
Rant almost off.
;-)
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Actually it would be nothing at all like that. It would be like registering your car, which is not the same as making an entire race register because those in power fear the perceived influence of said race.
Are you kidding ME!!! a $25,000.00 fine if you don't register your kids toy!...
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Are you kidding ME!!! a $25,000.00 fine if you don't register your kids toy!...
No, I'm not kidding you. An estimated 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust. A $25,000 dollar fine, while admittedly harsh, pales in comparison.
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OH, good Lord! It's irritating, it's certainly governmental overreach, and in general should be opposed. But registering a model airplane is a far cry from *planning the genocide of an entire race/religion* using the most fundamentally idiotic, evil, and racist supposed justifications imaginable. It absolutely IS NOT a matter of degree, it is fundamentally different.
Brett
IT IS NOT fundamentally different.. . its FREEDOM and PROPERTY RIGHTS!
The point is, the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this.. and YOU are acting as an apologist for it.. Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM? SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!! You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next..
This will kill model aviation as we know it.. I guess I am about to get out of model aviation..
As a processional pilot (airline Captain for a major carrier), I have over 20,000 hours of military and civilian flying.. I have too much to lose in this.. now that the FAA has jurisdiction over model aircraft.. its just too much of a risk.. I can't have a hobby that can endanger my livelihood through a certificate action against my Pilots license from a model airplane incident.. Or a PAPERWORK ERROR, OR SUSPICION of a 'violation'.. I have EXTENSIVE experience with the FAA.. and I can tell you they are ANYTHING but reasonable...
Just google the Bob Hoover incident.. ( I was peripherally involved with that!.. so I am aware of a lot of inside information)
What going to happen now is there will be a huge number of people who are non-compliant.. that's when the FAA will SEVERELY enforce a couple of example cases to scare the sheep back into the pasture..
Bhaaa! Bhaa! I think I hear sheep!
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What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats? I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?
I fly in the US contests 4 or 5 times a year, both C/L and R/C.
From what I have read it is not possible for me to get a registration number.
So does that mean I can no longer fly in th US, or even if I can will the guy at the border know this and let me cross with my "drones"?
It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out for you guys,I just hope it doesn't stop me from competing in the US >:(
Pat MacKenzie
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IT IS NOT fundamentally different.. . its FREEDOM and PROPERTY RIGHTS!
The point is, the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this.. and YOU are acting as an apologist for it.. Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM? SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!! You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next
I do not think this regulation is at all reasonable, it is ridiculous. But even if they came around and confiscated all modeling supplies and burned them in a heap on the national mall, it's a huge leap in both principle and in result to *attempting to exterminate people on an industrial scale* because of some little twit's delusions of racial purity.
Even you don't believe that the two are equivalent, or at least, I desperately hope you don't.
And don't get on your high horse about how serious you are about conservative principles *with me*, of all people. If you really understand what the founders wanted, you should be able to see several built-in legal approaches to seek redress. One hint - having an internet hissy fit isn't among them.
Brett
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Sounds like everyone needs to go back and reread the E-Mail several more times. It mentions air craft within the weight range that are controlled by radio signals. Just like the guns that kill people by themselves, only the honest people will register them. Now look at what they do when they do catch a person who has guns not registered, they slap their hands, take the guns and let them go. I guess my RC planes will stay in the rafters. So if some pilot flying a full size plane gets in the path of my CL plane that is attached by a strap and 65 foot flying lines, who is at fault. Too bad these so called educated idiots don't get out in the real world and see what is going on.
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In the Interim Final Rule published 12/13/2015
http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf
In Section B "Definitions" on page 39 the term "Unmanned Aircraft" is defined with the following discussion:
(Quoted without the footnotes)
In the sUAS Operation and Certification NPRM, the FAA proposed to define “unmanned aircraft” as “an aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft.” This proposed definition would codify the statutory definition of “unmanned aircraft” specified in Public Law 112-95.
The Management Association for Private Photogrammetric Surveyors (MAPPS) stated that the definition of “unmanned aircraft” needs to be clarified because the current definition leaves open the possibility that paper airplanes, model airplanes, model rockets, and toys could be considered unmanned aircraft. The Aviators Model Code of Conduct Initiative stated that this definition and the definition of small unmanned aircraft may permit infant passengers and asked
the FAA to amend the definition to categorically prohibit the carriage of passengers on an unmanned aircraft.
Lastly, an individual said that because 14 CFR 1.1 defines aircraft as “a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air,” only a “whole” or “complete” aircraft can meet this definition for registration purposes.
The definition of unmanned aircraft as “an aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft” is a statutory definition, and as such, this rule will finalize that definition as proposed.
(End of Quote)
It strikes me that even though the discussion envisions an "unmanned aircraft" as an aircraft that does not have a human on or in the aircraft physically moving the controls, we do control the aircraft through direct human intervention with hand motions via physical cables connected to the control surfaces of the aircraft. Just like moving the stick in the cockpit of an airplane. If fact with the AMA's definition of a control line model there is no other way to control the flight path of a control line model.
I don't believe the registration requirement applies to control line aircraft.
Dave
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I do not think this regulation is at all reasonable, it is ridiculous. But even if they came around and confiscated all modeling supplies and burned them in a heap on the national mall, it's a huge leap in both principle and in result to *attempting to exterminate people on an industrial scale* because of some little twit's delusions of racial purity.
Even you don't believe that the two are equivalent, or at least, I desperately hope you don't.
And don't get on your high horse about how serious you are about conservative principles *with me*, of all people. If you really understand what the founders wanted, you should be able to see several built-in legal approaches to seek redress. One hint - having an internet hissy fit isn't among them.
Brett
Brett,
'With me' what that's supposed to mean..
Get SERIOUS... THINK... You and EVERYBODY else knows I NEVER suggest this ONE rule is going to result in genocide.. I simply was using a severe example of how the loss of freedom gradually becomes accepted and therefore worse.. much more
I am NOT a conservative.. don't insult me..
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But Doc, it's right there plain and simple in the FAQ's page. Both tethered and untethered vehicles are included in this regulation. The way it is written, if your CL model exceeds 250 grams, then it must be registered.
On the following link, scroll to the "what's covered" section
https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/
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In the Interim Final Rule published 12/13/2015
http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf
I don't believe the registration requirement applies to control line aircraft.
Dave
Dave thanks for the interesting post.. the only problem is do you have the resources to defend it in court? I don't!.. The FAA is like the IRS.. 'guilty until proven innocent'..
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I just returned from a meeting of my model club...the Woodland/Davis Aeromodelers. Mainly R/C of course. One member is a full time (as in works for) FAA safety officer and maintenance inspector. He also flies R/C planes, helicopters and at one time, control line. He received a briefing from Washington last week prior to the official announcement.
His understanding is that the FAA is not including Control Line models in this program because they are not radio controlled and are tethered. Hope he is right on this. Unfortunately all R/C models that fall into the weight guidelines, drones or not, are included. Also, the current proposal was pushed through in order to have something in effect in anticipation to the post X-mas drone population boom. There are on-going talks to refine the directive. One topic being discussed is the allowing of AMA numbers to serve as FAA registration numbers. 8)
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Brett,
'With me' what that's supposed to mean..
Get SERIOUS... THINK... You and EVERYBODY else knows I NEVER suggest this ONE rule is going to result in genocide.. I simply was using a severe example of how the loss of freedom gradually becomes accepted and therefore worse.. much more
I am NOT a conservative.. don't insult me..
OK, then please say what you actually mean, because you certainly did equate the two above.
Note also that conservatives are the only people even claiming to fight this sort of facist overreach. Certainly not the Democrats, who *love* endless regulation. FDR more-or-less invented the idea.
And to be clear, what you should be ranting about is the fact that is it supposed to be very difficult to create new laws, and that the lawmakers are supposed to be accountable. However it dawned on someone that it would be a super-great idea to create non-legislative regulatory bodies via legislation, which permitted the legislators to delegate the responsibility for writing the regulations (and ostensibly, not have to be experts) to others. These others would not be elected nor would they be directly accountable to the voters. The had the authorization to raise revenue, as well. This deflects liability for the results of the regulations from the elected officials so they do not get the backlash. The agencies *always* grow endlessly, they never end. For example, the Rural Electrification Authority was created in 1936 to help bring electricity to farms. That goal has long been accomplished, however, the agency still exists (as the Rural Utilities Service) bit still has a budget, employees, an org chart, etc.).
This approach has led to exactly the same bureaucracy overhead as is found in other countries, like Great Britain, as the "civil servant" class. So now you have endless agencies churning out endless regulation, with absolutely no accountability, and no politician or elected official to punish for the results. And as used in recent years, accountable to "executive orders" where an individual not charged with *any* legislative authority can influence the agencies and essentially dictate their actions - again with no accountability.
This is what you should be on about. The completely unjustified, and fundamentally illegal, nature of this arrangement is anathema to liberty. NONE of it should exist, NO law/regulation should be outside the direct accountability of elected officials, and they should not be able to defer responsibility for the actions of nameless and faceless organizations.
In a properly running US government, it would be nearly impossible for Congress to enact the endless stream of regulations directly. That was *intentional* and part of the underlying principle of the formation of the government from its inception. It was intended to preclude exactly this.
The *only* people fighting this, even with lip service, are what are now considered "right-wing extremists". The lousy ex-hippies are now the inmates running the asylum, and as with any "liberal" philosophy, it *must always descend into totalitarianism*. It cannot exist without totalitarian forces involved, and *will always tend to totalitarianism". This is just a minor/trivial example of that.
I expect this to be challenged legally on the basis that it violates US Code.
Brett
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Thank you Pete, I am sure we will receive specific instructions from AMA as soon as all this is clarified. Unfortunately there are some idiots that
have caused this, I know of several model fields that were lost due to RC planes "buzzing etc real aircraft" I also know of cl fields that are lost because
of people with no common sense. We need to be respectful of people and institutions even the gov. (I worked for 30 years for the US Govt.)
Yes lots of thing are stupid, however we need to be careful and not cause any more commotion as what is have is hard to come by.
By that I mean places to fly etc. By the way I and numerous of my fellow Govt workers did work very hard every day!!! Right up until the day I retired.
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"Note also that conservatives are the only people even claiming to fight this sort of facist overreach. Certainly not the Democrats, who *love* endless regulation. FDR more-or-less invented the idea."
As you probably guessed the last time this came up, I don't agree with you on this and would appreciate not having foreign beliefs attributed to me (and many others of like philosophy) and words put in my mouth by others. I am so truly conservative that you might even consider me radically left, but I am not THAT either. All this talk of "isms" to which we seem to owe our souls and allegiances just pigeonholes people and makes real communication on real issues practically impossible. So I wish you wouldn't do it. I understand that this AMA/FAA topic might reek of politics, but it does not have to be simplistic nor to be insulting to others here on the forum. You can make it objective without accusing others here of doing unrelated things that they have not done. I'm (almost) sure you can.
PS. The only regulations *I* "love" are regulations that keep people from violating Constitutional rights. There has been, unfortunately, a lgreat need for that recently. The "he did it first" of that can be argued far away from a model airplane forum - even when griping about fascist (note the spelling) governments, which we all seem to hate equally.
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CL is probably exempt. Tethered. Definitely distinguished from RC and free flight. Our home field, for instance, is in a state park where we are permitted to fly CL planes because they fit the definition of tethered models. Folks here got themselves in an amusing snit about drones. A previous call to arms. Putting this thread next to that threat makes for amusing and confusing non logic. We are fully registered by the govt every which way. Private corps can just about trace our every move. Already. If the Repub front runner gets elected internment camps for a religious minority in the US could happen. At least he and the like minded in his party have expressed sympathy for the idea. This would be an internment of American citizens. Freedom to practice ones religion another constitutional right. Why the Pilgrims and many others came here in the first place. A right that underpins our way of life. I guess if it isn't a right to bare mass shoot killing machines so what.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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While not a fan of the government, the AMA OR the FAA.
The midea and news is really the guilty ones here.
With all the pressure drummed up by non participants, did the FAA have any choice but register?
Think about it about every third night there is something on TV about it.
Hollywood script writers have embraced drones to be used for bad things over and over.
Look at the headlines on national news.
The message that 100000 people fly RC airplanes safely are not news
The message is all are nuts job and fly near airports and/or peaks in windows is titillating and exciting and not factual, therefore popular news.
Some third rate college without and aviation or engineering school pushed out s study and it gets national news?
NEW YORK — Hundreds of drones fly dangerously close to manned aircraft in U.S. airspace, forcing pilots to take evasive action sometimes, a new study shows.
Experts reviewed 921 cases involving drones and manned aircraft between December 2013 and September this year.
Of those, 327 incidents fall under the definition of close encounters, according to Bard College’s Center for the Study of the Drone.
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Do we have a clear answer from AMA as to whether CL is actually involved or not? I get the "tethered UAS" mention, but also wonder about Brett's comment early in this thread about the CL model being a system which doesn't actually leave the ground.
I do hope this goes to court, since the language regarding regulation of model aircraft is crystal clear. I will write my congressman as well, since the language is clear enough that even the lowliest staffer will be able to understand and be able to convey my thoughts to her boss.
It is possible to win-Rocketry defeated the BATF after a long legal fight, over an issue I thought they had no chance of winning even though they were right. This is MUCH simpler and clear cut. And, if model aircraft are considered separate from drones at the end of the process, maybe AMA will finally give up on the drones.
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I've seen golf balls fly as high as our CL planes do.
Shug
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Great idea. And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.
Terrible idea: I will raise a stink if the AMA provides the FAA any of my personal information. I also don't want the NRA giving my info to the FBI, the ATF, etc .....
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Do we have a clear answer from AMA as to whether CL is actually involved or not? I get the "tethered UAS" mention, but also wonder about Brett's comment early in this thread about the CL model being a system which doesn't actually leave the ground.
I do hope this goes to court, since the language regarding regulation of model aircraft is crystal clear. I will write my congressman as well, since the language is clear enough that even the lowliest staffer will be able to understand and be able to convey my thoughts to her boss.
It is possible to win-Rocketry defeated the BATF after a long legal fight, over an issue I thought they had no chance of winning even though they were right. This is MUCH simpler and clear cut. And, if model aircraft are considered separate from drones at the end of the process, maybe AMA will finally give up on the drones.
Steve, why did the BATF get involved with the model rocket issue? Was it due to the rocket motors being considered an explosive?
I see no reason for CL aircraft to be included in this registration but remember that we are dealing with bureaucrats. They are not Vulcans and the word "logic" is not in their vocabulary. It is so much easier to put everyone in one category.
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The point is, the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this.. and YOU are acting as an apologist for it.. Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM? SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!! You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next..
I agree with the principle of this argument. Simply put, our run-away government is constantly over-reaching its authority, and the above explanation so very aptly puts it into a language and arena we can all understand. Our government has decided what light bulbs are "okay" for us, what toilets are "okay" for us, what types of refrigerants in our automotive AC systems are "okay" for us, and... need I go on? It is unfathomable how intrusive this government has become. It IS indeed ridiculous. WAY too much governmental interference.
However, unlike the poster of the above quote, I am a conservative.
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I fly in the US contests 4 or 5 times a year, both C/L and R/C.
From what I have read it is not possible for me to get a registration number.
So does that mean I can no longer fly in th US, or even if I can will the guy at the border know this and let me cross with my "drones"?
It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out for you guys,I just hope it doesn't stop me from competing in the US >:(
Pat MacKenzie
Terrorists and foreigners (both legal and illegal) do not have to register.
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Just curious, but what is the serial number of an Ares or Nobler or Firebaby??? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
I am going to enter the serial number of my plane as NCC-1701
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I really think that this does not apply....it clearly says "such as a transmitter" please read carefully. Definitions define the rule!!
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We have folks on this forum with different political leanings. Personally, I am just to the right of Attila The Hun, but we ALL better come together in some sort of common goal to fight overreach and ridiculous regulations such as this if we want to preserve and continue to enjoy flying models regardless if they are tethered or not. Even if CL is not included we need to partner with the RC guys and fight this because if we don't, eventually they will come for us also.
Mike
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IF CL (and FF) is not covered by this FAA regulation, the AMA should have made that point clear. What I read (briefly) was that if a flying machine was controlled by a hand held object (such as a transmitter), that could be interpreted to include a control handle.
One day, we had a spectator hanging on the fence down at Auburn Muni. He watched several flights, with us carrying the models and handle to the circle to/from the pits for each flight. After several flights, he snapped to the notion that these were not R/C planes. He was appropriately disgusted and left immediately. I would expect no less brilliance from the FAA. D>K Steve
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Mike I think you are right that we need to stand with our R/C and FF brothers, especially as our fate both within and outside of the AMA is tied direct to them. They support most of the general hobby so we need them. I have expressed my displeasure with where the leadership at AMA has taken us with regard to the drone issue and only elections- not bitching- will change that. These chickens are now coming home to roost. It's likely too late to reverse this as it's been indirectly drawn into the security arena. At least the FAA has shown some interest and concern over the drone issue and is willing to take at least a baby step towards trying to get out ahead of it. To me this is not a big deal and I'm not into conspiracy theories or vast government plots. I'm not one to sit in the basement with a shotgun on my lap waiting for black helicopters and doom. Sure wish it didn't come to this but it is what it is. I hope facts and reason prevail- not hype and hysteria. Also that we keep in mind most of us are in the middle with small leanings right or left based on a few issues. We aren't enemies despite those voices who try to make us so. Ignore them- turn it off.
Dave
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I fly my electric at a soccer field about three quarters of a mile from the end of Ellington Field (formerly AFB), I have already had a well meaning city park ranger stop my flying one day because she knew that model airplanes were not allowed in the park.
I now carry a copy of the park rules that say that model aircraft may be flown, just “not within 200 feet of a park building”. No big deal, but it stopped me that day, and I went home.
With this in the news, I’m sure the park rangers are just as confused as we are.
What a great chance to just say, “no you can’t do that here, period”.
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Here's a puzzlement for some of us. I only fly CL. However, 5 of my 20 some odd planes uses 2.4 R/C to control the throttle on my Navy Carrier planes. With that can I fly CL planes without 2.4 throttle, and not fly my CLK planes that use 2.4?
Joe Just
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I fly CL on my own land. Don't fly competitive, so the AMA and FAA can just kid my a..
Larry,
This is my exact point.. Let just say something occurred while you were flying your models , on YOUR property, that got law enforcement involved. It does not really matter what the reason the police arrived... as soon as they see your 'unregistered weapons of mass destruction' .. you could end up fighting a $25,000.00 fine from the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.. and knowing what I know about the FAA, they will likely fine you $25,000.00 for each infraction.. so if you have three models.. 3 x $25,000.00
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L.O.L.!! ;D No big deal!! ;D No big deal!! ;D If we as modelers participate en' masse', it'll flood their computerized sign-in system (like the National Healthcare registration), then it will become unmanageable, too costly and unprofitable as did the requirement to register for CB radios! And within 3 - 5 years the ACLU will partner with the REPUBLICANS calling it "big government" and an intrusion on civil liberties, call for budget cuts, eliminate funding for the program and it too will end up as a wild and weird memory! R.O.T.F.L.M.B.O.!! LL~ LL~ LL~
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As much as I don't like it, I'll register so I can fly in a contest. Waiting to see the clarification on control line flying.
I might have to build a carrier ship with a transmitter now....
Ken
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R%%%% Just think of the Job Opportunities, ( I may come out of retirement) your $5.00 will provide!! And those fines will really add up fast!
There will be thousands of Inspectors driving gov. cars all around the country, inspecting everyone who is out there flying. Of course this will be a good paying job with all the Gov. benefits. Think about it, payed vacation, holidays, even the best Medical. You'll be working in the finest of Gov. buildings, your own office! With a Secretary to answer the phone. You'll be working with Senators & Congressmen!! I 'll bet they will issue a uniform complete with a Shiny New BADGE! May even carry a Gov. Issue Pistol, for the times it get a little rough. Free shooting lessons! All the Ammo you need! They will be asking questions about your friends & neighbors, "that guy "down the street, with a HOT LINE to call in violations, (a good desk job). You'll be there when they knock down doors to find hidden model drones & airplanes! Confiscate all the latest models! Track down those terrible "Scratch Builders".
Your wife will love your new paycheck, all the men in your neighborhood will envy you when you drive home in that shiny new car, all the women will love that new uniform! A Shiny badge gets get them every time!
If we cant beat them, Join them and be the first person on your block to apply!
RK Flyer
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You might notice it says the first 30 days will be FREE. Rather that 1.5 million will sign up- more likely 1500. Not much of a hair-on-fire thing......
Dave
Actually this thing should be ignored by control-line fliers. They can't lock us all up. This tyranical, ironfisted government is determined to control every aspect of our lives. Who would have ever thought that the federal government would try to control our hobby in this way? THere is no aspect of our lives that is out of bounds for this government to take control of. If the people do not stand up and resist this power grab, we deserve the worst..........a tyranical, ironfisted governmental control over every thing that we do, everything that we have and everything that we think. In fact, this issue is much bigger than model airplanes ! mw~
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So, I go online and register, for free. One registration number is good for all my planes. My handle is attached to any plane I happen to be flying.
I write my registration number on each of my handles and I am compliant.
I usually get angry at my government for stuff like this, but, what the heck?
It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal
If someone comes from another country to compete, your give him a piece of tape with your number on it, he sticks it to his handle and life goes on
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Who is going to tell the new guy that has just bought a drone or RC plane that he now has to have it registered. My local hobby shop doesn't even know where the flying fields are at let alone the rules. I hate to think how many of these RC aircraft purchasers are even aware of what the AMA is other than the American Medical Association.
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Lets just hope this all goes away when the drones are not the popular toy for Christmas. Honestly my displeasure with the US government is growing.. Even my little local govt job that started with good intentions and good solid work almost 16 years ago has turned into a paperwork is more important than the people nightmare.
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I learned something about this from my flying buddy today. He is an FAA accident investigator(Ret.), and says we fly in Class G airspace, which is free uncontrolled air. It's not regulated at all.
Scroll gown to Class G (Gulf)
http://www.vatusa.net/training/tiki-index.php?page=the_national_airspace_system
it says,"Class golf airspace is uncontrolled airspace. We as air traffic controllers are unable to control an aircraft while they are inside the confines of the Class Golf airspace. You may think of Class Golf airspace as "government free" or "go anywhere." The Class Golf airspace begins at surface level and extends up to the Echo above it (700AGL or 1200AGL). In some locations the Class Golf airspace extends as high as 14,500 ft MSL."
There is an illustration to accompany the explanation.
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/16/76/00/59/captur11.jpg)
It looks to me like control line can not reach regulated airspace. What are y'alls opinions on that?
Rusty
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Phoowee, the pressure relief valve is working overtime here.
I hope all of you have actually read the complete FAA Interm Final Rule for yourselves. It is just that, interm, not final yet. You have 30 days to submit comments to the FAA before it is declared final. From pages 1 & 2:
The Department will consider all comments received before the closing date and make any necessary amendments as appropriate.
DATES: This rule is effective December 21, 2015. Comments must be received on or before
[INSERT DATE 30 DAYS AFTER DATE OF PUBLICATION IN THE FEDERAL REGISTER].
From page 20:
In addition, consistent with the Regulatory Policies and Procedures of the Department of Transportation (DOT) (44 FR 11034; Feb. 26, 1979), which provide that to the maximum extent
possible, operating administrations for the DOT should provide an opportunity for public comment on regulations issued without prior notice, the Department requests comment on this
IFR. The Department encourages persons to participate in this rulemaking by submitting comments containing relevant information, data, or views. The Department will consider
comments received on or before the closing date for comments. The Department will consider late filed comments to the extent practicable. This IFR may be amended based on comments
received.
Page 46:
The NextGen Air Transportation Program at North Carolina State University and one individual commenter recommended FAA specifically state that tethered powered small UAS are
considered small UAS under proposed part 107. In response to these comments, the FAA notes that the definition of small UAS in this rule includes tethered powered small UAS.
Page 58:
aircraft that are control-line operated (i.e., tethered flight),
My guess is control line models are definitely included in this rule. Why ask the AMA? They didn't write the rule. Submitt your comments to the FAA and see if you can convince them otherwise. Our aircraft are not tethered to a fixed point, they are tethered directly to the human operator. The tether in this case is for control purposes only. Good Luck.
Paul
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After some more research...
Q. What about tethered drones?
A. Both tethered and untethered UAS must be registered.
A tethered UAS was an approach where RC models, most often some kind of multi rotor vehicle, were tethered to the ground to get around the non-commercial usage limitations associated with RC model aircraft. The loophole in the Federal Aviation Regulations that allowed for this approach was explicitly removed in 2014. Tethered drones were never about control line models.
Ok here is the core problem. Was is a Unmanned Aircraft System (UAS)?
In the FAA's "Integration of Civil Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) in the National Airspace System (NAS) Roadmap" published in 2013, they defined a UAS on page 8 as consisting of three elements:
• Unmanned Aircraft;
• Control Station;
• And Data Link
Plus they provided an illustration to further clarify their definition.
https://www.faa.gov/uas/legislative_programs/uas_roadmap/media/UAS_Roadmap_2013.pdf
Control line models use direct physical connection between the operator/pilot and the model to control the flight path of the model not a data link. If there is a data link used, such as a 2.4 ghz RC unit, to control the throttle or other function it does not control the flight path of the model.
Control line models do not fit the FAA's definition of a UAS.
Control line models do not need to be registered.
Dave
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We should have at least 6 months to get this registration business done, assuming that it'll be the same crackerjack company building the website as did the one for the last registration fiasco. ;) y1 #^ S?P Steve
Edit: What about those who don't have a computer (don't want a computer)? Can we register by USPS? What if we miss the end of the free registration period...will they accept PayPal? LL~
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Might as well make it my first post. I'm satisfied with reading that the CL side of my hobby is outside this FAA fatwa as stated on the 2nd page and the AMA letter, "All aircraft that are flown using a ground control system, such as a transmitter, are required to participate. "
That being said I still need to register as the majority of my flying is done RC. It would be nice if we could use the same number but being treated like a child molester and forced to register myself does grate me. Especially as we all know this is punishing everyone save the ones causing the problems.
What might be fun is to print out the FAA requirement and tape them on as many boxes of the larger quads that are everywhere, the auto parts store, hardware store, my grocery store has them. Don't know if any of them is up to half a pound.
To any forum admin that is reading this, I think I have a duplicate registration here. My full name on the registration page came back as used but I didn't have a clue for the password and didn't have a question to answer and I've moved and lost my old email address AND though I registered and reset it at least twice, because I haven't done much but play grandpa for 7 years I just haven't posted or read much, well, my apologies for making whomever work.
I see Shug is here. I met him on Hammockforums. Whoooo Buddy!!!
Grousing about this new rule needs to come to an end. Seeing if the AMA or anyone is going to get an injunction against this over-reach which had been spelled out by congress is probably next. If there is a gofundme account in support of an injunction I'd be interested in contribution. Sam Graves is my Representative in Congress and a modeler BUT he's also a politician and as such spends his time trying to stay elected. I doubt model planes has anything to do with his radar, but I suppose sending him a message couldn't hurt.
And you cons and libs, don't yell at each other here. We're just about all we got.
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I really don't think that the FAA will include CL planes, after they get the various parts of their definitions more consistent. Having read everything on this forum and what was sent to me, I do not believe that the FAA means to call CL aircraft "drones" even now. When we fly, we're probably mechanically connected to our control surfaces closer that many commercial pilots anyway. I doubt though that FAA will back down on RC, since someone can actually use RC models to inflict pretty heavy damage. I haven't seen that AMA is dragging its feet. I'd be interested in the specifics of that - or is it just expectations based on earlier issues?
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Steve, why did the BATF get involved with the model rocket issue? Was it due to the rocket motors being considered an explosive?
In a word, yes. The court case was over the arbitrary and capricious (to use the legalese in the suit) action of the ATF to change the classification of ammonium perchlorate from "flammable solid" to explosive. This sudden change was aimed at stopping hobby use of ammonium perchlorate based solid propellant and largely came about because of the monumental stupidity of some people in the hobby rocket industry who thought that if they couldn't beat their competition on the free market, they would beat them by loosing the Feds (DOT and ATF) on them. This backfired on a massive scale.
The crux of the lawsuit was that after the ATF reclassification, Morton Thiokol and many other industrial users understandably screamed that AP being classified as an explosive would kill their businesses; after all, they bought AP by the train load for things like the Shuttle SRBs, etc. My understanding was that the BATF then suspended the classification change for industrial users, but kept it in place for hobby use of AP. The two rocketry groups, NAR and Tripoli, joined in a lawsuit to seek relief from the unfair classification change. What followed were years of outrageous behavior from the ATF, including instructing the Air Force Arnold Engineering Center to rig/falsify tests, as well as stalling proceedings by massive document dumps (12-20,000 pages) right before court dates that resulted in months of postponements every time. It went on so long the lead attorney for rocketry died of old age and it took almost another year to get a new legal team up to speed.
Rocketry finally won because the BATF pissed off the federal judge presiding over the case with all the document dumps. Once the ATF could not delay the proceedings any longer the case was resolved pretty swiftly in rocketry's favor.
I fly stunt because I didn't feel like waiting forever for legal relief from not being able to fly high power rocketry. I had flown a ringmaster as a kid and in my late 20s decided to build planes and fly again. On the plus side, I remembered you can fly a stunt plane *a lot* more than a J powered model rocket.
All that said, if the FAA ruling is indeed in contravention of law, I suspect Congress can sort it out MUCH faster than the courts. In court, FAA will stall just because it seems to be SOP for the Federal govt. (as an aside, any lawyers here? Do they teach stalling as a standard practice in law school?)
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CL included or not
I think the DOT/FAA had their lawyers give them enough wiggle room to survive a challenge based on the section 336 of Public Law 112-95 where Congress told the FAA they could not promulgate new rules on the Model Airplane Hobbyists.
Please open the entire PDF and read page 152 through 155
http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf
1. Comments addressing Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of
2012
The FAA response is quoted here:
"The FAA disagrees with the comments asserting that the registration of model aircraft is prohibited by section 336 of Public Law 112-95. While section 336 bars the FAA from promulgating new rules or regulations that apply only to model aircraft, the prohibition against future rulemaking is not a complete bar on rulemaking and does not exempt model aircraft from complying with existing statutory and regulatory requirements. As previously addressed, Public Law 112-95 identifies model aircraft as aircraft and as such, the existing statutory aircraft registration requirements implemented by part 47 apply.
This action simply provides a burden-relieving alternative that sUAS owners may use for aircraft registration. Model aircraft operated under section 336 as well as other small unmanned aircraft are not required to use the provisions of part 48. Owners of such aircraft have the option to comply with the existing requirements in part 47 that govern aircraft registration or may opt to use the new streamlined, web-based system in part 48"
Back in October, during the original comment period for the Notice of proposed Rule Making, the FAA asserted that they had always been charged with regulating all Aircraft and that traditionally they had used their discretion to ignore model aircraft. The DOT/FAA stated that they had decided to no longer use that discretion. They believe they are not "promulgating new rules" on the hobby community
My take is most courts (generally liberal district courts) would uphold this rule and the Supreme Court may never accept it to review or decide
The only way we can change any of this is to get our sitting congress to notice their intent was ignored and they need to write new law to confirm their intent....
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(as an aside, any lawyers here? Do they teach stalling as a standard practice in law school?)
Speaking of lawyers: I am sure there are some very dedicated members of the law profession. Of course, we have the ambulance chasers as well.
Since we could all use a laugh once in a while, maybe I can contribute some comic relief. During the years I have been studying Spanish I have a new appreciation for the culture and also have come to realize that we are all about the same, all over the world. That is, we all like and dislike pretty much the same things.
One of my teachers was from Mexico City. The law profession in Mexico must be taking notes about what is happening here regarding the law profession. This teacher told me that in Mexico lawyers are sometimes called "plátano" (banana). I asked her why she said because you can't find a straight one.
To help me learn Spanish I found a web site with jokes in Spanish, from all over the Spanish speaking world. It is here I found one of my favorite lawyer jokes, translated from Spanish:
A caretaker in a cemetery was cutting the grass when he came across a tombstone that read: 'Here lies a lawyer, an honest man, an honorable man.' The caretaker, upon seeing this tombstone, fell to his knees, made the sign of the cross, and said--"Holy Virgin Mary, they buried three men in the same grave!"
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I just signed this petition regarding the regulation the FAA is trying to pull. I'll leave the link here for anyone who wishes to sign it:
https://www.change.org/p/federal-aviation-adminitration-stop-the-faa-act-requiring-drone-model-aircraft-pilot-registration?recruiter=449680930&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=autopublish&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-reason_msg
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Rocketry finally won because the BATF pissed off the federal judge presiding over the case with all the document dumps. Once the ATF could not delay the proceedings any longer the case was resolved pretty swiftly in rocketry's favor.
I fly stunt because I didn't feel like waiting forever for legal relief from not being able to fly high power rocketry. I had flown a ringmaster as a kid and in my late 20s decided to build planes and fly again. On the plus side, I remembered you can fly a stunt plane *a lot* more than a J powered model rocket.
All that said, if the FAA ruling is indeed in contravention of law, I suspect Congress can sort it out MUCH faster than the courts. In court, FAA will stall just because it seems to be SOP for the Federal govt. (as an aside, any lawyers here? Do they teach stalling as a standard practice in law school?)
The BATF case seems to be a good example. But I would not expect swift congressional action from a body that hasn't passed a budget for 7-8 straight years. And it is far from clear that the AMA even wants to fight this.
Nothing will be resolved on this topic for many years, if ever.
Brett
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I just mailed hand written letters to both my republican Senators of Texas, John Cornyn (an original Yea vote on the 112th congress public Law 112-95) and Senator Ted Cruz a presidential primary contender
Senator Kay Baily Hutchison was the other Texas Yea vote for the 112-95 public law that in section 336 restricted the FAA from promulgating rules on the Hobbyist model airplane community
what I sent
To:
The Honorable Mr. John Cornyn
United States Senate
Washington D.C 20510
From:
Frederick C von Gortler IV
US Army Retied First Sergeant
305 CR 4330
Lampasas Texas 76550
December 16 2015
Subject: DOT/FAA Interim Rule making adversely impacting US citizens
Honorable Mr. Cornyn
Sir the DOT/FAA has created an Interim rule to register model aircraft operators that I believe does not comply with the INTENT of the 112Th Congress.
My representatives at the time, yourself, and the Honorable Mrs. Hutchison, voted to preserve the hobby of Model aviation and restrict the FAA from creating (new) rules applying to model aircraft for hobby use.
Below is an excerpt of that public law.
I would like your staff to look into this and brief you.
This new rule imposes a level of more government and control that you seem to generally object to, as I do. I fail to see how expending several hundred million dollars registering EVERY Hobbyist Model Airplane Operator can attain the stated objective of the DOT/FAA.
In my opinion this is another example of punishing law abiding citizens with fees (taxes) and threats of fines and imprisonment with little or no effectiveness to the stated goal of making the National Air-Space (NAS) safer.
I contend that my legal, safe use of my kit or scratch built hobby model airplanes poses ZERO risk to any users of the NAS.
While I agree that $5.00 to be registered for 3 years is of little or no real consequence, I object to the Federal government threatening me with fines and imprisonment for non-compliance as I seek to constitutionally pursue my happiness (building and flying small model airplanes).
V/R
Your voting constituent
Frederick C von Gortler IV
US Army Retired First Sergeant
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And it is far from clear that the AMA even wants to fight this.
I was a NAR member with high-power certification when the BATFE crap hit the fan.
Both NAR & TRA are much smaller organizations than the AMA, yet they were able to
mount a court challenge, stuck with it for the long haul, and ultimately won.
If the AMA with its greater membership & resources sits back and does not fight this,
they are utterly useless.
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I must agree in principle (and. in large measure, in detail) with Brett's remarks on constitutional and legal redress.
I hope that to be a last resort, and that a bombardment of Congress with emails, letters and phone calls might bring relief.
As has been noted, re-election is top priority for elected officials.
Fred's letter is an outstanding example of what can be done.
I agree that there is a 'slippery slope" inherent here:
For those who say "$5 for all my planes? - no big deal", be aware that in the future it's a simple matter of regulatory fiat to make it any amount for each of our models.
I wholeheartedly agree that, as modellers, "we hang together or we hang separately".
Divisions on issues not relevant are best set aside.
Unfortunately, while any level of logic must conclude that our c/l planes are assuredly not "unmanned" (ignoring the occasional combat plane LL~), is there a constitutional or statutory requirement that logic, or even common sense, be exhibited in the promulgation of law or regulation?
I do find hope in the examples of CB radio and model rocketry, though the resolution was long in coming
On a lighter note, considering the massive bureaucratic infrastructure required to implement, oversee and enforce the proposal, could this possibly be merely an attempt to decrease unemployment and improve the economy by moving a bunch of money around? ;D n~
Terry
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I just mailed hand written letters to both my republican Senators of Texas, John Cornyn (an original Yea vote on the 112th congress public Law 112-95) and Senator Ted Cruz a presidential primary contender
Senator Kay Baily Hutchison was the other Texas Yea vote for the 112-95 public law that in section 336 restricted the FAA from promulgating rules on the Hobbyist model airplane community
what I sent
To:
The Honorable Mr. John Cornyn
United States Senate
Washington D.C 20510
From:
Frederick C von Gortler IV
US Army Retied First Sergeant
305 CR 4330
Lampasas Texas 76550
December 16 2015
Subject: DOT/FAA Interim Rule making adversely impacting US citizens
Honorable Mr. Cornyn
Sir the DOT/FAA has created an Interim rule to register model aircraft operators that I believe does not comply with the INTENT of the 112Th Congress.
My representatives at the time, yourself, and the Honorable Mrs. Hutchison, voted to preserve the hobby of Model aviation and restrict the FAA from creating (new) rules applying to model aircraft for hobby use.
Below is an excerpt of that public law.
I would like your staff to look into this and brief you.
This new rule imposes a level of more government and control that you seem to generally object to, as I do. I fail to see how expending several hundred million dollars registering EVERY Hobbyist Model Airplane Operator can attain the stated objective of the DOT/FAA.
In my opinion this is another example of punishing law abiding citizens with fees (taxes) and threats of fines and imprisonment with little or no effectiveness to the stated goal of making the National Air-Space (NAS) safer.
I contend that my legal, safe use of my kit or scratch built hobby model airplanes poses ZERO risk to any users of the NAS.
While I agree that $5.00 to be registered for 3 years is of little or no real consequence, I object to the Federal government threatening me with fines and imprisonment for non-compliance as I seek to constitutionally pursue my happiness (building and flying small model airplanes).
V/R
Your voting constituent
Frederick C von Gortler IV
US Army Retired First Sergeant
Very well written Fred. I hope everyone on here will follow suit and not lay down on this.
Mike
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I found this in one of the wonderful government documents under definitions;
1.Unmanned Aircraft
“An aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on.”
Dam it. I’ve 2 steel cables in my hand directly connected to my aircraft. If that isn’t “direct human intervention”, I don’t know what is.
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I learned something about this from my flying buddy today. He is an FAA accident investigator(Ret.), and says we fly in Class G airspace, which is free uncontrolled air. It's not regulated at all.
Scroll gown to Class G (Gulf)
http://www.vatusa.net/training/tiki-index.php?page=the_national_airspace_system
it says,"Class golf airspace is uncontrolled airspace. We as air traffic controllers are unable to control an aircraft while they are inside the confines of the Class Golf airspace. You may think of Class Golf airspace as "government free" or "go anywhere." The Class Golf airspace begins at surface level and extends up to the Echo above it (700AGL or 1200AGL). In some locations the Class Golf airspace extends as high as 14,500 ft MSL."
There is an illustration to accompany the explanation.
(http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/16/76/00/59/captur11.jpg)
It looks to me like control line can not reach regulated airspace. What are y'alls opinions on that?
Rusty
My thoughts...don't confuse "controlled airspace" with "regulated airspace". Class G is not really "government free" and the AOPA was probably intending the reader to interpret it as compared to controlled airspace. FAA regulates what a plane (equipment, registration, pilot license, etc) does in Class G but doesn't control flight paths though it. Buzz a court house at 200' AGL in class G and see how fast the FAA is revoking your pilot's license. Its hard to believe they would go after CL planes but they are the govt and they don't talk with smiles on their faces. There are too many ways to interpret the new law at this time...the posting I saw of AMA's opinion that CL is not included isn't backed up with a credible FAA written exclusion. Maybe I missed that part.
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Here is what the AMA responded to my inquiry :
Rich,
Yes, you will need to register. All pilots flying aircraft that are flown using a ground-control system, such as a transmitter or control line, are required to register. This includes pilots who fly fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, not just multirotors or drones. Any pilot flying models weighing between .55 pounds (or 250 grams) and 55 pounds is required to register.
You will get one registration number once you register with your name, address, and email address. This number should be applied to all aircraft. This is a win for the AMA. Originally the FAA wanted all aircraft registered. The AMA said this is unrealistic because members have many aircraft. The FAA agreed to register only the pilot.
The FAA registration process begins on Monday, December 21, 2015. Registration will be online only. The FAA requires every current pilot to register within 60 days. There is a $5 registration fee; however, if you register within 30 days ending, Wednesday, January 20, the fee is waived.
Thank you for inquiring and for flying safely and responsibly.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Best,
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There is one other piece of information they want from you - your credit card number. Big Brother is watching.
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Here is what the AMA responded to my inquiry :
Rich,
Yes, you will need to register. All pilots flying aircraft that are flown using a ground-control system, such as a transmitter or control line, are required to register. This includes pilots who fly fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters, not just multirotors or drones. Any pilot flying models weighing between .55 pounds (or 250 grams) and 55 pounds is required to register.
You will get one registration number once you register with your name, address, and email address. This number should be applied to all aircraft. This is a win for the AMA. Originally the FAA wanted all aircraft registered. The AMA said this is unrealistic because members have many aircraft. The FAA agreed to register only the pilot.
The FAA registration process begins on Monday, December 21, 2015. Registration will be online only. The FAA requires every current pilot to register within 60 days. There is a $5 registration fee; however, if you register within 30 days ending, Wednesday, January 20, the fee is waived.
Thank you for inquiring and for flying safely and responsibly.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Best,
I guess I am through flying model airplanes..... 50 years plus of building and flying models... Thanks to our overlords in the federal government..
This would almost be laughable if it wasn't so sad...
I guess I can sell everything on ebay..
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Kind of makes me sorry I re-upped for two years (just to watch them implode). Final time, to be sure.
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Kind of makes me sorry I re-upped for two years (just to watch them implode). Final time, to be sure.
I'm glad I didn't Mike.
Mike
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So, here's our S--T sandwich folks, a two-hundred and eleven page document created to supposedly regulate model aviation. Not one word of which will pertain even 1/1000th of a percent to anyone who may intend harm or damage with their flying machine. What this new document will do is give them a never ending supply of loopholes to eventually screw us all into the ground. As I sit here I can't even begin to come to terms with just how completely ridiculous this result is, there is no sense to it whatsoever. Our Government and our AMA at their finest, a complete nightmare.
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This new document will give the them a never ending supply of loopholes to eventually screw us all into the ground. As I sit here I can't even begin to come to terms with just how completely ridiculous this result is, there is no sense to it whatsoever. Our Government and our AMA at their finest, a complete nightmare.
An unfortunately... its just beginning.. It WILL get worse..
An NO I am NOT a pessimist.. I consider myself a realist.. after 15 years in the US Military, and 27 years as a professional airline pilot, dealing closely with the FAA, I know how incompetent, obstructionist, power hungry, and bureaucratic they can be..
The system is broken ..
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Kind of makes me sorry I re-upped for two years (just to watch them implode). Final time, to be sure.
You need to stick around so you can participate in the upcoming recall vote for Bob Brown, at least.
Brett
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Maybe MR Brown should be impeached?
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With a PM message exchange I have been having I got to thinking this might be OK after all. The feds trump the AMA so we register for $5.00 and let the AMA membership drop. Homeowners insurance pays before AMA so what is the need to have them aside from contests.
They did not think this through at all and neither did the FAA who is going to read the number affixed to the aircraft that is 1/2 tall passing by at 300 MPH near miss? BS and totally stupid. It's a money grab so AMAZON can use them for delivery. Registration will not stop anything. Every modeler needs to write a letter to the FAA and the US Senate all at once.
Mr Brown:
I am writing this letter to ask a question. If the FAA and the US government rules are far greater than the AMA and if we register with the federal government for the $5.00 fee to remain legal what is the reason to keep my $75.00 per year AMA membership? If you say insurance please don't as I know that each persons home owners insurance is the first to be tasked. So that leaves a magazine that is devoted to multi rotor ARFs of which I don't fly and have no plan to fly. So the question I ask is what will the AMA's benefit be?
Kind of makes me sorry I re-upped for two years (just to watch them implode). Final time, to be sure.
I jumped the gun too and fell the 2 year registration and if you think about it they knew before hand. If you like your doctor ,you can keep your doctor?
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Do kites have to register? I have kitesurfing kites tbat weigh more tban 9 ounces and can fly longer than a cl model. Plus they fly higher than cl models. Im quite upset with the us govt.
A friend of mi e said he has a pair of "jack boots" for world war 2 reenactments. He said I can borrow them and crush any model without the registration number on it.
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Spark....try telling a flying site owner that "homeowner's" insurance will cover anything....
Not going to happen
Mostly, it the guys and gals flying people like cattle that have caused this situation, fueled by the media and misunderstanding the law.
If we hope to fly in organized events, FAA registration will be required, and so will, I wager, AMA membership.
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You need to stick around so you can participate in the upcoming recall vote for Bob Brown, at least.
Brett
======================================================
That's not a bad idea. Let's git-er-done!!!
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The AMA just emailed me that Federal Registration must be completed by 20 February, 2016 to be in compliance with the law.
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Do kites have to register? I have kitesurfing kites tbat weigh more tban 9 ounces and can fly longer than a cl model. Plus they fly higher than cl models. Im quite upset with the us govt.
A friend of mi e said he has a pair of "jack boots" for world war 2 reenactments. He said I can borrow them and crush any model without the registration number on it.
I'm wondering the same thing. We have a lot of kite surfers around here...and an air force base located directly on the water that they sail past. Where will it end? Elementary school kid flying kites, emergency flare guns for boats...a registration number tattooed on our body? But lets make sure we don't hurt the feelings of possible terrorists who get to fast track their visa into the USA. The whole thing is beyond stupid. I guess we shouldn't be surprised when considering who the FAA reports to and gets directions from. The only thing the AMA is concerned about is following the money. For now its drones, which will eventually be outlawed (under national security) because of the stupid operators. I've vented and feel better now!
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Do we need to consider the tradition and benefit of AMA sanctioned clubs and AMA club sanctioned flying sites? Then, AMA’s intervention to secure flying sites?
What would our hobby be without NATS at Muncie and AMA Museum?
Multirotor technology can be used for recreation, practical application, or dark activity. FAA is the bureaucracy here. AMA has done their best to protect our recreation all considered.
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Random thoughts on the subject of safety in the NAS; born from concerns about reported "DRONE" near misses or interference with emergency operations where aircraft were grounded from "DRONE" operations, or neighbors shooting down a drone and the obvious problem discharging a fire arm in a neighbor hood might be.
And I do agree that these reports are serious and should be a concern
Seems to me most of the incidents were caused by IGNORANT citizens. Perhaps a small amount by some "me first" butt head who knows better, but decided his desire came first. Like the guy at Joe Nall flying over folks so he can get YOU TUBE video
One thought.... Where are any DOT / FAA Public Service Announcements (PSA) ? Here in Texas I have not heard one radio or TV station do a decent news story/report on the problem and how theses "DRONES" should be used safely. Just the sensational crap we have all seen.
And NO PSA at all that I have read, heard, or seen.
Contrast:
Apparently there are not enough citizens and non citizens on welfare, food stamps, or have a smart phone. In the major markets of Texas; Dallas, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio the PSA for these programs are run fairly frequently on English and Spanish speaking radio stations
Funny, as I type this, the radio station I listen to has a get a free DRONE contest running. Also there are/have been many ads for hobby shops claiming to have the best selection, and their DRONES are better than the "Toys" at WalMart .... not one of these ads mentions the need to register to use the RTF TOY with FPV and a camera.
Other thought...I am a FCC Licensed Amateur Radio Operator and always knew that for some RC car/aircraft transmitter frequencies (54Mhz) a FCC License was required. I just learned yesterday that most of the First Person View (FPV) video links transmit higher RF levels that are above Part 15 limits and the operator must have a FCC Technician license
So a multi rotor operator with FPV must now be registered or licensed with 2 federal agencies....
For some reason I bet if I log on to the ARRL web site and search, I won't find any reports of DRONE FPV system that are causing any interference or enforcement actions....perhaps I am wrong and I just don't know about it yet
Just random thoughts, move along, nothing earth shattering here
The butt head in me plans to mess with (in a very small way) the FAA free sign up registration period by registering all my family members over 13 years old
This is the federal government that spent three years trying to get the Obama Care web site coded before they went live and it crashed every 5 minuets for months
The FAA has only had 6 months to get ready for this (I seriously think they already planned to do this registration long before they went through the notice and comment dance)
I am planning to help crash it in every legal way I can.... hoping the national media has a few stories about yet again another example of government incompetence
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It just totally Tee's Me off that they raised the AMA due's and gave a 2 year inducement to get you to pay up front all along knowing (you can't tell me different) this was in the works and how many people would not renew. What are we really paying for? Free airfare for the staff,wages,, a magazine and place some of use use once a year? 90% of the membership has never been there. I'm afraid the AMA just sank it's own ship. End R%%%%
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The butt head in me plans to mess with (in a very small way) the FAA free sign up registration period by registering all my family members over 13 years old
Maybe we should also register our pets! I have a 13 year old Weimaraner!..
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Glad I only signed up for one year. Vacating my post on the contest board as soon as Keith gets relocated.
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I've flown real aircraft for nearly 40 years (civilian, military and airlines) and, having thus been exposed to the FAA, here is my $.02 on the subject. It's a warning, really.
It is estimated that one million drones will be sold in the USA this year alone. Some of these will be purchased by idiots, by reckless individuals, and by others who have sinister motives (such as those who shoot lasers at airline cockpits, which, by the way, I have personally experienced). With these numbers it is almost inevitable that there will be a serious incident or accident involving a drone and a real aircraft. There have already been many close calls.
This registration process is just baby step 1 for the FAA. When such a serious incident or accident occurs in the future, the wrath of the FAA will descend upon ALL of the registered individuals. The next step is certification and licensing. Certification and licensing means training, examinations, evaluations, and inspections. More and more regulations will follow. I am not joking. This is already happening to commercial drone operators, and the FAA will come to see us in the same light.
I hope I'm wrong, but we may come to think of the pre-drone era as the good-old-days of model aviation.
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Actually, I am very surprised it has taken the FAA this long to regulate model aircraft. Many are claiming they are going to ignore the registration. Although not required by the AMA "yet", as a CD, I intend to CYA and not allow anyone to enter a competition without the registration certificate. Would hate for the FAA to come in shut down an event because we were not in compliance. Will have markers available for everyone to place their number anywhere on the model they wish before competition begins. All it takes is for one A-hole FAA inspector to show up at a contest and ruin everyone's day. It will happen!
Now, if the mandate is rescinded, then business as usual. But as it stands, it is a common sense standard for CDs to adopt for events and contests. Does it suck? Well, yes; however, so do most the rules we fly under anyway. Also, you can expect that chartered AMA clubs and flying sites will require the certification before you may fly at their fields. And, if you do not have a current certificate, don't expect the AMA insurance to cover you in case of an accident. Your homeowners insurance either. They will find any loophole they can to not pay out.
So, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Don't put your toys away in defiance. Go ahead and register and lets continue to have fun with our toys. You don't have to like or agree with it; however, it is now a requirement, so comply and move on.
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This just came from AMA:
Well, just thought I should jump back on here and give everyone some updated info.
The AMA Executive Council meet last night and gave us some direction. Note that there have been some changes on what AMA’s position is and how it effects our members.
1. The AMA has been assured by FAA that registration only applies to RC aircraft. Traditional CL aircraft are exempt. However, if you use RC in any of your CL aircraft (some do) then you would have to register.
2. AMA is now recommending that AMA members hold off on registration while AMA pursues legal action. AMA will be putting out another e-mail concerning this later today or tomorrow with more details on how this position came about.
So, the bottom line here is that this situation is fluid and there are almost daily changes. Please, PLEASE make sure you are getting the latest e-mails from AMA and check the website DAILY to make sure you have all the current info.
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I also got an E-mail from Tony Stillman confirming what John said above. I was asking if registration was required for CL models then would CD's be required to anything at a contest.
I am going to register since I use 2.4 Ghz RC controls in my CL scale models and if I ever fly Radio control then I am also covered.
this is the reply I got from Tony Stillman....
1. It was determined today the CL models are EXEMPT from registration. So if you only fly CL and have no RC models, then you do not need to register.
2. Registration is a personal issue. It is not up to the club, CD or AMA to require anyone to register, or require to see anyone’s registration. Therefore, there is no requirement for clubs or AMA officials to question anyone about registration.
Tony Stillman
Flying Site Assistance Coordinator/Competitions-Technical Director
Academy of Model Aeronautics
www.modelaircraft.org
800-435-9262 Ext. 230
All good news for CL pilots!
Fred
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I just received the same letter from Tony Stillman
Will wait to see what happens over the next few day............... D>K D>K
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I have read every comment in this thread and I respect everyone of them for their content and thoughtful input by the members of this forum on this issue. I guess I will also chime in and voice my opinion since this does directly relate to our hobby and the future of it.
Those of us who saw this coming when AMA first embraced these things, did voice our displeasure to the AMA and on here about what the eventual outcome was going to be and how this was going to be nothing but detrimental to the hobby and lo and behold, look what has happened.
Personally, for what it is worth, my days of participating in flying models may be coming to and end in the very near future. Not because I want to because i still enjoy building for myself and other people and after having the weight loss surgery, have finally gotten myself back to where I was beginning to fly again and had thought of releasing a new line of kits. However, my life is not model airplanes, it was/is a hobby I enjoy very much.
But as some point I have to say enough of this government overreach and inept rulings on everything from what we eat to where we buy health insurance. I am sick and tired of the people in government telling me how I must run my life and ramming their agendas down my throat and I am not going to stand for it anymore. Those of you who still compete and feel you must comply with the asinine situation, i certainly respect your decision to do so and that certainly is your choice.
I can assure you this will not stop at just simply getting you into a government data base and collecting your private information, rest assured there will be more and more and more bureaucratic crap that they will try and force upon us, this simply does not stop here.
Anybody remember the statement "its the principle of the thing". I could care less about the $5.00, it is not about the money, it is about an intrusive government that has no idea what they are talking about and are going to punish everyone because of a few bad eggs that want to do bad things with a quadcopter. Hell, they don't even know the difference between fully automatic and semi automatic weapons and they want to take away our second amendment rights? I don't think so....
Anyway, those are my thoughts and what I personally choose to do...everyone has the right to approach this the way they see fit. I honestly don't think the AMA will be around in the future....I think they have gotten in bed with the wrong people.
Regards
Mike
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This just came from AMA:
Well, just thought I should jump back on here and give everyone some updated info.
The AMA Executive Council meet last night and gave us some direction. Note that there have been some changes on what AMA’s position is and how it effects our members.
1. The AMA has been assured by FAA that registration only applies to RC aircraft. Traditional CL aircraft are exempt. However, if you use RC in any of your CL aircraft (some do) then you would have to register.
2. AMA is now recommending that AMA members hold off on registration while AMA pursues legal action. AMA will be putting out another e-mail concerning this later today or tomorrow with more details on how this position came about.
Among the possible reason, I know that I and several other people told them the very obvious- that the members expect the AMA to seek a restraining order *immediately*, regardless of the likelihood of success. And that "we are weighing our options" is not an acceptable response, given that they knew about this for certain for at least a month.
Others (not me) also noted that this might be the only way they remain AMA officers beyond the next month or so - because the members will first call for their resignations, and failing that, recall them, particularly Bob "Drones are the future" Brown. Not that they didn't manage to persuade the FAA, but because they failed to take even token actions to fight it.
Brett
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I've flown real aircraft for nearly 40 years (civilian, military and airlines) and, having thus been exposed to the FAA, here is my $.02 on the subject. It's a warning, really.
It is estimated that one million drones will be sold in the USA this year alone. Some of these will be purchased by idiots, by reckless individuals, and by others who have sinister motives (such as those who shoot lasers at airline cockpits, which, by the way, I have personally experienced). With these numbers it is almost inevitable that there will be a serious incident or accident involving a drone and a real aircraft. There have already been many close calls.
This registration process is just baby step 1 for the FAA. When such a serious incident or accident occurs in the future, the wrath of the FAA will descend upon ALL of the registered individuals. The next step is certification and licensing. Certification and licensing means training, examinations, evaluations, and inspections. More and more regulations will follow. I am not joking. This is already happening to commercial drone operators, and the FAA will come to see us in the same light.
I hope I'm wrong, but we may come to think of the pre-drone era as the good-old-days of model aviation.
Chad.... I TOTALLY AGREE!!
And here is the fact that chaps my a@@... this new registration plan will do NOTHING to stop either the idiots or the bad guys..
Idiots will ALWAYS find a way to screw it up.. remember the fool flying his beach chair attached to WX balloons at 17,000 near LAX?
Bad guys will simply bypass the rules.. just as they always do.. I am sure the FAA is incompetent enough to believe the threat of a $25,000.00 fine will deter these people..
I can ALMOST agree with commercial drone regulation.. but there is nothing to be gained by the registration of toy drones and model aircraft..
I was USAF.. I flew F-4's, F-16's, F-15's and KC-135's What did you fly in the USN?
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So, don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Don't put your toys away in defiance. Go ahead and register and lets continue to have fun with our toys. You don't have to like or agree with it; however, it is now a requirement, so comply and move on.
I disagree.. I REFUSE to participate in this registration.. If you are not part of the solution.. you are part of the problem..
All this is going to do is kill model aviation.. and it will NOT stop any 'threat' from the personal toy drones..
Why aren't all laser registered? Lasers are a big threat to aviation.. I personally have been lased six times on airline trips.. ..
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I've flown real aircraft for nearly 40 years (civilian, military and airlines) and, having thus been exposed to the FAA, here is my $.02 on the subject. It's a warning, really.
It is estimated that one million drones will be sold in the USA this year alone. Some of these will be purchased by idiots, by reckless individuals, and by others who have sinister motives (such as those who shoot lasers at airline cockpits, which, by the way, I have personally experienced). With these numbers it is almost inevitable that there will be a serious incident or accident involving a drone and a real aircraft. There have already been many close calls.
This registration process is just baby step 1 for the FAA. When such a serious incident or accident occurs in the future, the wrath of the FAA will descend upon ALL of the registered individuals. The next step is certification and licensing. Certification and licensing means training, examinations, evaluations, and inspections. More and more regulations will follow. I am not joking. This is already happening to commercial drone operators, and the FAA will come to see us in the same light.
I hope I'm wrong, but we may come to think of the pre-drone era as the good-old-days of model aviation.
Ah yes, the ironfist of tyranical government cometh.................as long as we give in, they will keep coming. I recommend that anyone who doubts this read William L. Shirer's book. "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". D>K
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I just got off the phone with the AMA and they are now registered here and this afternoon will be posting information pertaining to the FAA ruling. I was also to CL does not have told register at this time. But wait for the Memo.
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Personally, for what it is worth, my days of participating in flying models may be coming to and end in the very near future. Not because I want to because i still enjoy building for myself and other people and after having the weight loss surgery, have finally gotten myself back to where I was beginning to fly again and had thought of releasing a new line of kits. However, my life is not model airplanes, it was/is a hobby I enjoy very much.
But as some point I have to say enough of this government overreach and inept rulings on everything from what we eat to where we buy health insurance. I am sick and tired of the people in government telling me how I must run my life and ramming their agendas down my throat and I am not going to stand for it anymore. Those of you who still compete and feel you must comply with the asinine situation, i certainly respect your decision to do so and that certainly is your choice.
I can assure you this will not stop at just simply getting you into a government data base and collecting your private information, rest assured there will be more and more and more bureaucratic crap that they will try and force upon us, this simply does not stop here.
Anybody remember the statement "its the principle of the thing". I could care less about the $5.00, it is not about the money, it is about an intrusive government that has no idea what they are talking about and are going to punish everyone because of a few bad eggs that want to do bad things with a quadcopter. Hell, they don't even know the difference between fully automatic and semi automatic weapons and they want to take away our second amendment rights? I don't think so....
Anyway, those are my thoughts and what I personally choose to do...everyone has the right to approach this the way they see fit. I honestly don't think the AMA will be around in the future....I think they have gotten in bed with the wrong people.
Regards
Mike
God Bless you Mike..!
I will be standing right next to you..
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Hi beercamel,
E2C, C2A, T2C. I've been lasered several times, too. Will they wait until someone buys it before anything is done?
I like your call sign-- from AF days? They tagged me with "Boot" (for Boot Hill).
Best,
Chad
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Hi beercamel,
E2C, C2A, T2C. I've been lasered several times, too. Will they wait until someone buys it before anything is done?
I like your call sign-- from AF days? They tagged me with "Boot" (for Boot Hill).
Best,
Chad
Hey Boot!..
I got the call sign right after Gulf War 1.. we were celebrating with a couple RAF Tornado and Jaguar Squadrons and Just before the Piano was set ablaze I was caring a very large tray of beers and shots.. some RAF bloke called me the 'beercamel'.. The next day the damages in the O club exceeded 6000.00.. and it was claimed it was the fault of the 'beercamel'.. Everybody in mysquadron started calling me that.. and you know how thing like that stick..
The FAA should require the registration of all lasers!.. at 5 bucks a pop of course.. !! What IDIOTS..
BTW, I heard today from one of my inside UPS buddies, as well as a rumor from another non-UPS guy about the Birmingham UPS A300 crash. Rumor has it that the FAA was a significant contributory factor that was not included in the report. Apparently there is evidence it was covered up by the NTSB and the FAA.. We can only hope if this is true that it gets out and a WHOLE LOT of heat is put on the FAA..
BC
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======================================================
That's not a bad idea. Let's git-er-done!!!
Realistically, however, that has no chance of succeeding, since the vast majority of AMA (Academy of Multirotors & ARFs) members are RC flyers -- many being of the "toy-buying" category. True model builders (including the top-tier RC Scale folks) are so small in number as to make any thought of a recall or impeachment impractical.
A good friend of mine often appends a line to his posts which reads: "Evolve or get left behind." The way things are going, I'll elect to get left behind.
'nuff said.....
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"Evolve or get left behind." The way things are going, I'll elect to get left behind.
'nuff said.....
True.. but 'evolve' means Improve, get better, become more efficient... NOT submit to or accept ridiculous, bureaucratic, rules..
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True.. but 'evolve' means Improve, get better, become more efficient... NOT submit to or accept ridiculous, bureaucratic, rules..
Feelings have nothing to do with rules. In the AMA's mind, 'evolve' means going Electric and embracing multirotors.
I won't do either.
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Not real sure in all of this has anybody wondered if This now includes Kites ????
after all a kite can go up any where the wind goes and who's to say where it will end up ???
A model teather by lins less than fifty feet from the pilot is know where its going more off less...
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Let me just throw this in here...I predicted, way back when (among my fellow modelers, some 14 years ago) this would become a big controversy. Post 911...AMA headlines..."Model Airplane flown nonstop across the Atlantic Ocean." (paraphrasing) It drew a ton of attention to the Government, the new HLS and the FAA. I know from first hand discussions with my FAA acquaintances, that licensing, registration and new rules, became topics of interest by upper management. "The chickens have come home to roost." H^^
Norm
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Take a look at this
http://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-warns-it-will-move-drone-research-abroad-1418076981
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Beercamel,
That's a hilarious story! LL~
I ran into a great bunch of British blokes, too. They were mercenaries flying Hawker Hunters for the Sultan of Oman on the island of Al Masirah, off the coast of Oman, in '87 during Operation Earnest Will. We broke down there one night and were royally hosted by the lads. I had been at sea for 3 months and hadn't had a drop to drink (the USN is dry, you know) and wow, did I get pickled.
Anyways, we struck up a great arrangement with the Brits. Every week the air wing on the USS Constellation nominated a hard working enlisted man to be "Sailor of the Week". We got permission from the CAG to fly the fellow on, shall we say, a "training mission" which conveniently included a refueling stop on Al Masirah. There the Brits were waiting for the lucky sailor with a large assortment of adult beverages which he had to quickly consume before the fuel tanks were filled.
Needless to say, not only did this enhance international relations...but it was a great moral booster for the air wing as well.
P.S.-Yes, I've heard some of those UPS rumors, too. Hmmm-
Boot
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The following arrived in my E-mail in box 3:18pm MST today. AMA recommends holding off registering your aircraft (deadline is Feb. 19, 2016) until they get word back from the US Courts on a petition they filed with them back in August. Below is the text of the E-mail:
Academy of Model Aeronautics
Member Communication
Thursday, December 17, 2015
Dear AMA Members,
Yesterday, the AMA Executive Council unanimously approved an action plan to relieve and further protect our members from unnecessary and burdensome regulations. This plan addresses the recently announced interim rule requiring federal registration of all model aircraft and unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) weighing between 0.55 and 55 pounds.
AMA has long used a similar registration system with our members, which we pointed out during the task force deliberations and in private conversations with the FAA. As you are aware, AMA's safety program instructs all members to place his or her AMA number or name and address on or within their model aircraft, effectively accomplishing the safety and accountability objectives of the interim rule. AMA has also argued that the new registration rule runs counter to Congress' intent in Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012, otherwise known as the "Special Rule for Model Aircraft."
The Council is considering all legal and political remedies to address this issue. We believe that resolution to the unnecessary federal registration rule for our members rests with AMA's petition before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia. This petition, filed in August 2014, asks the court to review the FAA's interpretation of the "Special Rule for Model Aircraft." The central issue is whether the FAA has the authority to expand the definition of aircraft to include model aircraft; thus, allowing the agency to establish new standards and operating criteria to which model aircraft operators have never been subject to in the past.
In promulgating its interim rule for registration earlier this week, the FAA repeatedly stated that model aircraft are aircraft, despite the fact that litigation is pending on this very question. The Council believes the FAA's reliance on its interpretation of Section 336 for legal authority to compel our members to register warrants the Court's immediate attention to AMA's petition.
While we continue to believe that registration makes sense at some threshold and for flyers operating outside of a community-based organization or flying for commercial purposes, we also strongly believe our members are not the problem and should not have to bear the burden of additional regulations. Safety has been the cornerstone of our organization for 80 years and AMA's members strive to be a part of the solution.
As we proceed with this process, we suggest AMA members hold off on registering their model aircraft with the FAA until advised by the AMA or until February 19, the FAA's legal deadline for registering existing model aircraft.
Holding off on registration will allow AMA time to fully consider all possible options. On a parallel track, it also allows AMA to complete ongoing conversations with the FAA about how best to streamline the registration process for our members.
In the near future, we will also be asking our members to make their voices heard by submitting comments to the FAA's interim rule on registration. We will follow-up soon with more detailed information on how to do this.
Thank you for your continued support of AMA. We will provide you with more updates as they become available.
Kind regards,
The AMA Executive Council
Bob Brown, AMA President
Gary Fitch, AMA Executive Vice President
Andy Argenio, AMA Vice President, District I
Eric Williams, AMA Vice President, District II
Mark Radcliff, AMA Vice President, District III
Jay Marsh, AMA Vice President, District IV
Kris Dixon, AMA Vice President, District V
Randy Cameron, AMA Vice President, District VI
Tim Jesky, AMA Vice President, District VII
Mark Johnston, AMA Vice President, District VIII
Jim Tiller, AMA Vice President, District IX
Lawrence Tougas, AMA Vice President, District X
Chuck Bower, AMA Vice President, District XI
© 1936-2014 Academy of Model Aeronautics.
5161 E. Memorial Dr., Muncie IN 47302
Tel.: (800) 435-9262; Fax.: (765) 289-4248
All rights reserved.
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My opinion: That email is a play on words and a cya for failure. At this point AMA is doing nothing but trying to work out the registration process with the FAA so AMA numbers can be used. They want to stay in the loop for financial reasons and to grow membership by pushing the "community based organizations" BS. If the FAA says CL has to register the AMA is OK with it. Everything else is fluff for damage control of their large angry rc membership base (the rc guys are major pixxed).
Hope I'm wrong but their blogs and emails don't say much to show CL is even on the table for discussion with the FAA. Everything I've seen about CL registration is from second hand discussions or someone's opinion...and contradictory.
BP
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see attached
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see attached
Yep, unfortunately the current admin believes they SHOULD run our lives because they are superior and know better. Since the FAA reports to the commander in chief it is no surprise model registration (lawful or not) is happening. The FAA has already over regulated general aviation to the point of declining numbers...next in line is the model industry. Even 10 years ago everyone would have laughed hard at anyone who said models are going to be registered with the FAA and the AMA supported it.
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This one is fun... a better slice and dice than a chef at Benihana's...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-xnIMuZBlQ&feature=player_embedded
So where is the equivalent test video of a drone ingestion?
Maybe they already know Metal, CF, Lipo's, & Plastic won't be as cheap of a test as chicken flesh and bone... or they don't want to encourage you know who...
Poor chicken... he could have gone to the Boston Market and met a more dignified demise. Where was PETA? LL~
Joking aside, just like the selfish evil morons with Laser Pointers and no respect for human life who run away when the Police come knocking because they KNOW they are doing something wrong, I somehow don't think people whose intentions are to fly a drone into an airborne jet fan are going to register...
Just like the lock on your front door, some things are only there to keep the honest people honest. Money would have been better spent on a "drone offenders list" than an 'honest persons list".
With a Drone Offenders List, they could keep a much smaller, manageable list to track of those who get caught flying in active controlled NAS space, and fine them on a sliding scale that gets higher with each offense, and kick in some jail time, with longer vacations as it gets more dangerous or a repeat offender, and add them to a No-Fly-List, just like a felon who can't buy a gun legally or void their parole and back to jail.
That MIGHT make some of the smarter and less evil ones think before they do something stupid. And even all that won't stop a terrorist intent on their mission. The registration is beginning to look like just a giant political over-reaction to fear, and letting no crisis go to waste, it's also a data grab, and a potential money grab.
EricV
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And now it appears that FAA plans to make their registration numbers available to the public. Great for thieves shopping for free hobby items.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33487741&postcount=212
Regards, Chris
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If you have an amateur radio license (or commercial) from the FCC, the information
is in a public database. For an amateur license, you can use a P.O. box for the
address.
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And now it appears that FAA plans to make their registration numbers available to the public. Great for thieves shopping for free hobby items.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=33487741&postcount=212
Regards, Chris
easy
Full scale has the same policy, but there has been no sudden increase of thefts of beech bonanzas?
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx)
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see attached
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easy
Full scale has the same policy, but there has been no sudden increase of thefts of beech bonanzas?
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx)
Right. And you have to search by N number. You cannot search by name, address or any other piece of info.
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easy
Full scale has the same policy, but there has been no sudden increase of thefts of beech bonanzas?
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx (http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx)
It's probably a bit trickier to rip off a doctor killer from a hanger at an airport than to break into someone's house when they are gone and grab a few thousand dollars worth of rc gear, don't you think? I do.
R,
Chris
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It's probably a bit trickier to rip off a doctor killer from a hanger at an airport than to break into sometimes house when they are Hon and grab a few thousand dollars worth of rc gear, don't you think? I do.
R,
Chris
No, actually it's quite easy to walk into a general aviation facility, bypass the key system on an airplane you wouldn't use on your shed and steal that airplane.
Too simple as compared to trying to break into someone's house, steal something of very limited value to anyone except the owner.
The thing is, we can "what if" this to death with regard to the consequences of the registration. All's it does is divide us. I think we should just agree that the FAA is reaching well beyond their Congressional mandate and agree to fight that issue.
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Get this...
A fellow C/L club member of mine stopped into the LHS for a few supplies yesterday in Minneapolis. This particular shop is about as large as they get anymore. With it being this close to Christmas the store was very busy, including noticeable lines of people buying drones. While he was there he asked the store manager what he thought of the latest FAA developments with aero-modeling and particularly the drone issue. The manager replied, "Don't worry, it doesn't apply to us."
Really. HB~>
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And people wonder why the LHS is nearly extinct? ::) I have pretty much given up the on the LHS years ago. Little product and no help.
Shawn
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No, actually it's quite easy to walk into a general aviation facility, bypass the key system on an airplane you wouldn't use on your shed and steal that airplane.
Too simple as compared to trying to break into someone's house, steal something of very limited value to anyone except the owner.
The thing is, we can "what if" this to death with regard to the consequences of the registration. All's it does is divide us. I think we should just agree that the FAA is reaching well beyond their Congressional mandate and agree to fight that issue.
I agree they are over reaching.
But I'm certain that it is easier to conceal an RC plane, Tx, parts, than it is to do that with a full scale plane. And the point being that treating sport models the same as full scale is ridiculous with regards to registration.
I sure hope they get this BS figured out, because it is getting old very fast.
I have no problem with a $5 registration, but it isn't necessary, and also isn't going to solve their problem at all, only create them. Oh well. I guess some people are just ready to shrug their shoulders and just give in to these Big Brother tactics. I'm not one of them.
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Interesting interview about the Faa registration.. ...
http://financialsurvivalnetwork.com/2015/12/andrew-amato-beware-of-government-drone-registration/
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In this latest realm of confusion,
I received the following from the AMA:
Hi WES,
Episode 4 of AMA Air is now live. Chris Savage and Erin Dobbs invite members from AMA's Government Relations Team to discuss the FAA UAS registration.They address commonly asked questions and AMA's suggestion that members hold on registration while the AMA pursues legal and political remedies.
Watch the video at http://air.modelaircraft.org/
They state that C/L and FF are exempt from the FAA registration.
'May THE FORCE be with you'!
"Tight Lines!" and MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Wes
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I will not be renewing my AMA. To me they are weak and already defunct. I only fly CL and that in my own farm field anyway.
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Now that it's apparent that CL & FF fliers do not have to register with the FAA, could we PLEASE lock this thread and end the trauma? Pretty Please? H^^ Steve
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Not sure we should just blindly believe this until we see the rule from the FAA. Not that I have any doubts you understand. Men do make mistakes and the AMA is no different. It sounds logical, but when has our government ever been logical. And if we are excluded, who is going to explain it to the authorities that come and shut us down because we have no government number on our plane? They will say a model is a model and not know any difference. Gee, I hope I do not sound skeptical.
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Well, sure...but I wasn't going to register already! And I just got off the phone with my brother (who flies a little R/C HLG) and he's not going to register, either. AMA might be wrong, but if they are, they've set themselves up for a nice lawsuit. H^^ Steve
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So kites, inflatable gorillas, balloons tethered to car dealer lights, free flight planes, etc are all tethered to the ground like a CL model. Are they going to have to register with the FAA also?
When I had corresponded with the FAA during the NPRM I was told that control line planes were not defined a SUAS - because they were tethered to the ground, and did not operate in the National Airspace as defined by the regulations.
As far as people knowing the difference between an AMA number or a FAA issued number, most people who would harass you don't know the difference between "drone" or "multi-rotor" and a control line model. A majority couldn't spell out the full name of either organization.
That doesn't mean they won't cause us trouble, but we stay in one spot and are easy to find. The other group in question - if something happens, they jump in the car and disappear...
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So if we register before the deadline the $5 charge is refunded and it covers our entire fleet. The number has to be visible on "close inspection" and can be inside a hatch. For a government agency this appears to be quite user friendly. I really can't blame people for being concerned what with all the negative publicity about idiots and their drones. Did anyone else see the utube by the young man who had the 9mm pistol on his drone? Now he has a flame thrower roasting a turkey.
Russel,
The charge is to be refunded within 10 days of the request of registration.
So, take $5 and multiply by 700,000 and you get the 3,500,000 of free float that the government gets out of the transaction. Why it didn't have a charge of $ .01 is beyond me, since refunding money costs the economy (and the credit people) a lot more than $ .01.
If I don't ever get my $ 5 back, do I sue the federal government ?
Nowhere does the info I see say that the fed requires name and address on the plane. So, they're running a lookup service to find out who's UAS it is.
I think I'll use the Federal registration decal I made that is shown in my attachment. Also, why do I need to renew it in three years ? What service are they providing for my money ?
Rex
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So kites, inflatable gorillas, balloons tethered to car dealer lights, free flight planes, etc are all tethered to the ground like a CL model. Are they going to have to register with the FAA also?
When I had corresponded with the FAA during the NPRM I was told that control line planes were not defined a SUAS - because they were tethered to the ground, and did not operate in the National Airspace as defined by the regulations.
As far as people knowing the difference between an AMA number or a FAA issued number, most people who would harass you don't know the difference between "drone" or "multi-rotor" and a control line model. A majority couldn't spell out the full name of either organization.
That doesn't mean they won't cause us trouble, but we stay in one spot and are easy to find. The other group in question - if something happens, they jump in the car and disappear...
What kind of "FAA" individual told you that? In reality ALL above ground airspace (outdoor only) in the USA is under FAA jurisdiction and you can get busted for infractions the moment a plane or whatever is flying leaves the ground...school yard, uncle Buck's back 40 acres, anywhere. Also, the regs state "tethered" has to be registered and is specifically noted without regard to the others (drones). But the FAA guy was right...cl planes are not specified as SUAS in the regs. But then again I couldn't find CL mentioned anywhere in the reg. Maybe the FAA's intent (spirit of the law) was not to include cl but all we have to date is the AMA's statements saying so. Is that opinion or fact?
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So if we register before the deadline the $5 charge is refunded and it covers our entire fleet. The number has to be visible on "close inspection" and can be inside a hatch. For a government agency this appears to be quite user friendly. I really can't blame people for being concerned what with all the negative publicity about idiots and their drones. Did anyone else see the utube by the young man who had the 9mm pistol on his drone? Now he has a flame thrower roasting a turkey.
Russell........the real issue is that outlaw, rogue, ironfisted government is shredding ALL of our rights and freedoms. We should not cooperate with this tyranny, but we should fight it in every way possible. While a federal power grab at our control-line models is bad enough, if you look around, you will notice that the feds are into every aspect of your life. They have overlooked nothing. Personally, I am sick of it, having lived 75 years and having had a chance to know firsthand what freedom is.............stand up, fight or go down with the ship....the choice is yours. y1
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Today I went to the Apollo XI field at the Sepulveda Basin park for the weekly stunt lesson (finally the Ringmaster could do loops but I recognize my particular one is too porky...might end up selling it).
Anyway, there was a pilots' meeting for everyone. One FAA rep explained the registration question.
According to the official, all of us are flying aircraft, no longer model airplanes. As a result all of us are to comply with the registration requirement as stated by the FAA. His definition of UAS is anything that flies-CL, RC. Registration applies to those models that exceed certain weight. We were also told that, after the registration deadline, anyone who did not register would be in violation of the law and sanctions would follow.
We were also give examples of how to attach the federal reg number to our planes.
The rep also mentioned that there have been many complaints of unsafe RC flying around the field, including one RC pilot who was performing aerobatics in the path of final approach of the full size jets, and drone pilots who insisted on taking photos of people.
So I guess that it's time to whip up the credit card to pay the Feds....
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I am not surprised about Apolo XI flying field (flown there many times), the full size aircraft that come from or approach Van Nuys Airport fly over the RC/CL flying site. Look at a google maps of Van Nuys Airport and you can see how close the RC/CL flying site is located to a very busy airport. They are probably under the 5 mile limit from the airport.
They are lucky the flying field has not been shut down, they better stay under the altitude limit for the RC models
Fred
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So the AMA has been posting CL doesn't have to register...and an FAA guy on the registration phone line for questions told me CL doesn't have to register...but first he asked if a CL plane was one with lines to a handle. Now another FAA guy in CA says CL has to register because we are flying airplanes and not models. Guess I need to go back to watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and forget about it.
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So the AMA has been posting CL doesn't have to register...and an FAA guy on the registration phone line for questions told me CL doesn't have to register...but first he asked if a CL plane was one with lines to a handle. Now another FAA guy in CA says CL has to register because we are flying airplanes and not models. Guess I need to go back to watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and forget about it.
This is exactly the problem with the AMA advice. They contend that CL is exempt because it is not a UAS, since it doesn't use a "ground control station". But that distinction is listed exactly nowhere in an FAA legal documentation, so it is up to individual FAA representatives to know that, or not.
I am trying to get someone to acknowledge that they are pursuing a clarification *with the FAA* but have not received an answer.
Brett
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So the AMA has been posting CL doesn't have to register...and an FAA guy on the registration phone line for questions told me CL doesn't have to register...but first he asked if a CL plane was one with lines to a handle. Now another FAA guy in CA says CL has to register because we are flying airplanes and not models. Guess I need to go back to watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and forget about it.
Bill, you beat me to it. This would be comical if it wasn't so stupid. This whole thing is a circus. Yes you do, no you don't, yes you do, no you don't. IDIOTS
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Why don't we all just go back to Solid Scale display contests and tell the bureaucrats to go f#uck themselves?
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I talked to Sean Elliott (a Vice President with the EAA, a former Junior National Stunt Champion, and still an active model flyer of several disciplines) and his discussions with the FAA reveal that the FAA told him that C/L and Free Flight models are NOT exempt. The FAA says they regulate the operation of aircraft, no matter what size, and that we fly aircraft. I still think it's a bunch of crap, an illegal and un-enforcable law, and will all fall apart inside of a year. Sean thinks it will take two years. The next hoolla hoop will come along, things will settle down and define commercial users of quads, and sales of the toy versions will take a nose dive .
Wake me up when it's all over!
Dan McEntee
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Why don't we all just go back to Solid Scale display contests and tell the bureaucrats to go f#uck themselves?
Would the BOM rule apply? S?P
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I still don't see why we a looking at the AMA to tell us what is in the FAA rules.
Sure the rules are confusing and stupid.
But the AMA was NOT asked to write them. So why does the AMA have any credibility in this matter?
They don't.
The FAA is the only rule making body here, and with regard to this rule making organization to be looking for toward guidance.
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A baseball and a football can go higher than a CL plane do they need a FAA sticker? ~^
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A baseball and a football can go higher than a CL plane do they need a FAA sticker? ~^
It depends on which FAA person you talk to...the "yes" one or the "no" one. Maybe they flip coins every morning to see who is "yes" or "no" for the day. You know, to be consistent. It's beginning to make me laugh out loud every time I read about registration...hahahahahaaha
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A baseball and a football can go higher than a CL plane do they need a FAA sticker? ~^
I don't think so..........Guess it depends on who's throwing it. ;D
Now a golf ball, that's a different story. Now if our idiot, I, er, uh, mean illustrious president hits one over 400 feet high............ ???
LL~ LL~ LL~
Jerry
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It depends on which FAA person you talk to...the "yes" one or the "no" one. Maybe they flip coins every morning to see who is "yes" or "no" for the day. You know, to be consistent. It's beginning to make me laugh out loud every time I read about registration...hahahahahaaha
In this case the AMA is probably right, and if you ask people at the FAA involved with making the rule, they probably *don't* intend FF and CL to be included. That isn't going to do you do you any good when someone like a local police officer, armed with his FAA Guide for Law enforcment reference card, comes to shut you down., because it says nothing of the sort.
Brett
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I have registered to protect my license. Now that the FAA is involved my modeling activities, I have to conform to the regs, or I'd jeopardize my certificate and that's how I make my living. Because I fly RC. As stupid as it sounds, or actually is, the fact remains that some peple actually stand to lose a lot if they do not comply. Guys like me, and I can't afford to give away pay because of this.
Like Dan says, and Sean Elliot is to have expressed, this will change a lot when commercial operators increase ops. The model thing might go completely away. There were several iterations of specific rules of light airplane visual flight rules after 9-11 until they finally decided, or arrived at the fact through finally reading them, that rules already existed for operating visually and in instrument conditions of all airplanes so the specific after 9/11 rules are now referred to as temporary rules. Same may happen here.
I don't think a vast number of FAA people know what control line actually is, anyway. Or... have the power to answer the question of whether they are exempt or not.
Chris...
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it is going yo get worse. If we are now flying aircraft, not model aircraft. Our homeowners insurance will not cover it in most cases.
Insurance companies would rather not over our activities.
Since the AMA is only supplementary insurance, AMA will have to change a whole lot. Think our rates are high now?
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I don't think a vast number of FAA people know what control line actually is, anyway. Or... have the power to answer the question of whether they are exempt or not.
I am sure you are right about the first. I am pretty sure you are not right on the second - they are tasked with enforcement, as are state/county/local law enforcement. They are armed with a document that amounts to a quick-reference guide for legal professionals. None of that says anything about CL or FF. As far as the guide goes, anything that goes into the air and is over .55 lbs is theirs to do with as they please.
That's why I am trying to get the AMA to point this out to the FAA and try to get the document and FAQs (from the FAA) changed to reflect the intent. However, as noted in one of the threads here, the AMA is apparently unwilling to approach the topic with the FAA for fear of "muddying the waters" with regard to RC, etc.
Brett
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A serious question.....
When I go out to fly my Sig Akromaster with a slant plug Fox 15 this Spring, will the feds just come get me and lock me up? I am 75 years old and have been flying C/L since 1954 (62 years) without a licence and/or FAA approval. I don't intend to stop now because of this insane bureauracy in Washington. What is OBAMA going to do...... send me to AFGANISTAN?
My question is since the law has been in effect since January 1st, is anyone sitting in a jail cell for flying a C/L plane on 60 foot lines? I would bet that there have been a few violations of that law in the United States already and there will be more as the weather warms up. Just wondering if I should expect to get cuffed about the 1st of May or so. D>K H^^
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Terrrence....Sir.... the risk may be small but it is there just the same
I doubt you would ever be "locked up"
but If you go review the Enforcement actions against violators of FCC (amateur radio rules) you will see these agencies have more power than you want to pay the lawyer to fight.... published law wins EVERY time and Could COST you more than you think
I am sure we can all assume INITIALLY the FAA will look for and FIND folks to be made examples of----- and THEY will never ever apply any common sense to that enforcement
I got my Free FAA number....problem eliminated....period
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A serious question.....
When I go out to fly my Sig Akromaster with a slant plug Fox 15 this Spring, will the feds just come get me and lock me up? I am 75 years old and have been flying C/L since 1954 (62 years) without a licence and/or FAA approval. I don't intend to stop now because of this insane bureauracy in Washington. What is OBAMA going to do...... send me to AFGANISTAN?
My question is since the law has been in effect since January 1st, is anyone sitting in a jail cell for flying a C/L plane on 60 foot lines? I would bet that there have been a few violations of that law in the United States already and there will be more as the weather warms up. Just wondering if I should expect to get cuffed about the 1st of May or so. D>K H^^
They will not be enforcing it until February 21st. I doubt you will get hauled off to jail but you could get your stuff confiscated (see also: civil forfeiture) and dragged into court. I don't think the FAA cares but anyone who wants to shut you down will use this as an excuse to take your stuff and make your life difficult.
Brett
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I've been reading the forum for 4 months or so and joined up in November of last year. I'm getting back into this after more than 25 years and I've been following all this stuff on the Faa and I decided to go ahead and register just to avoid any possible problems, even though I haven't flown anything yet and probably won't for another month or more. I don't think anything is going to come of all this. Just my opinion though.
My son is a cop in the St. Louis county area and we've talked about this. He said this is one of the dumbest things he's ever heard. I told him the Faa is depending on the local law to enforce all this. He said good luck. He talked to his superiors about this and they all pretty much agree, they are not going to bother with it as they have more important things to do. A lot of the precincts are shorthanded as it is and unless the Faa comes into their office and forces them to do it, it's not going to happen. Even if the Faa try to force it, the cops will probably say they don't have time and to do it themselves, I don't think the Faa is really thinking about this part. Can you really see a cop coming out and fining people and confiscating planes? It's not going to happen. I'm sure the Faa is going to try, but with little to no help from the police, they don't have the manpower to go out to the fields everyday to try and catch someone. Plus I think a lot of these guys don't like it themselves. Like people have been saying, this will all fall apart over time.
Steve
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Is it still free to register? They did this to Salt Water Fishing a few years ago. I'm sick of paying fees to the government for everything I do. They seem to want to regulate every little thing. We should all just sit at home quietly and watch TV I guess. HB~>
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They will not be enforcing it until February 21st. I doubt you will get hauled off to jail but you could get your stuff confiscated (see also: civil forfeiture) and dragged into court. I don't think the FAA cares but anyone who wants to shut you down will use this as an excuse to take your stuff and make your life difficult.
Brett
More important, what landowner or city is going to allow activity? Flying fields will close. We fly in a park. The cops (right next door) love us, as when we are there, it keeps the teenagers in check, but if we are violating an FAA rule, goodbye to our flying privileges.
Also Bong state park has only tolerated rocket guys and model airplane guys. One of the finest FF sites in the Midwest, is now trees and bird sanctuary. This gives them a reason to shut that activity down.
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If anyone lives in a town where local LEOs have the time and energy to be worrying about guys flying CL planes......the mayor of that town needs to be slapped out of office.
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This Friday I'll be attending the recertification seminar for holders of the FAA Inspection Authorization Certificate. Now these seminars mandatorily last for eight hours. I've been attending them every year for 28 years. Most of them have been very informative and some have been like, "man! Lets get this thing over with." But, one thing I've learned over the years...bring up a controversial subject when the Feds are on the stage and things can get down right lively and I mean lively. Guess what I'm going to do this Friday? S?P
Norm
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So the AMA has been posting CL doesn't have to register...and an FAA guy on the registration phone line for questions told me CL doesn't have to register...but first he asked if a CL plane was one with lines to a handle. Now another FAA guy in CA says CL has to register because we are flying airplanes and not models. Guess I need to go back to watching "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" and forget about it.
You can fly it, but you'll need to have an A&P do your annual inspections and you'll need to comply with all airworthiness directives, and have transponder in some situations. If it's foggy you'll need to file IFR.
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More important, what landowner or city is going to allow activity? Flying fields will close. We fly in a park. The cops (right next door) love us, as when we are there, it keeps the teenagers in check, but if we are violating an FAA rule, goodbye to our flying privileges.
Also Bong state park has only tolerated rocket guys and model airplane guys. One of the finest FF sites in the Midwest, is now trees and bird sanctuary. This gives them a reason to shut that activity down.
Personally, I'm going to go buy a bunch of spray paint and go pi$$ some graffiti on the city hall............. LL~ LL~ LL~
Why not? You never hear about any of these little jackasses getting fined........... And boy does that PI$$ me off!
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Let's be clear about this. The significance of this regulation/law is that the FEDERAL BUREAURACY continues to sqeeze our lives and take away every RIGHT and FREEDOM WE HAVE. If we allow this to continue, we will soon be looking at a rerun of NAZI GERMANY or the old SOVIET UNION. Will we roll over and play dead? This issue goes far beyond our precious control line airplanes. This tyranical Executive Branch of government, through its thousands of UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS is enslaving us and we have no recourse. The non-elected bureaucrats are not responsible to the American People for their actions and decisions which affect our lives and can even carry not only fines, but even jail time. This is just one of thousands of OBAMA ERA REGULATIONS that are being implemented as we speak and will continue to affect our rights and freedoms into the forseeable future. If we lay down on this one, we have just lost another round (small though it may be) in the fight to save this country from MARXIST/COMMUNIST/ISLAMIST TYRANNY which is taking shape in Washington D.C. and across this country. Wake up time is at hand folks. S?P
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F the AMA and FAA. I refuse to comply.
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I will never comply with this idiocy.
MG
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Let's be clear about this. The significance of this regulation/law is that the FEDERAL BUREAURACY continues to sqeeze our lives and take away every RIGHT and FREEDOM WE HAVE. If we allow this to continue, we will soon be looking at a rerun of NAZI GERMANY or the old SOVIET UNION. Will we roll over and play dead? This issue goes far beyond our precious control line airplanes. This tyranical Executive Branch of government, through its thousands of UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS is enslaving us and we have no recourse. The non-elected bureaucrats are not responsible to the American People for their actions and decisions which affect our lives and can even carry not only fines, but even jail time. This is just one of thousands of OBAMA ERA REGULATIONS that are being implemented as we speak and will continue to affect our rights and freedoms into the forseeable future. If we lay down on this one, we have just lost another round (small though it may be) in the fight to save this country from MARXIST/COMMUNIST/ISLAMIST TYRANNY which is taking shape in Washington D.C. and across this country. Wake up time is at hand folks. S?P
Search you tube for Burns Oregon and see that they are under marshal law due to BLM land disputes.
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Search you tube for Burns Oregon and see that they are under marshal law due to BLM land disputes.
Yes, the Oregon situation is one rather good example of Federal Government overreach............will we lie down and wait our fate? We established this government to serve us and now it it turning against those (the American People) who established and authorized its very existence in the Constitution of the United States. The people must maintain control or this Frankenstein monster will eat us alive. Voting is not going to be enough to bring this government back into compliance with Constitutional authority. If you want to know about our best hope for straightening this mess out.....check out the following site: http://www.conventionofstates.com/
I realize that these are political statements, but we have to deal with the reality we live in every day, and in this case that reality is reaching out to control and restrict our beloved hobby. That should be enough to rile up quite a few people on this board. D>K H^^
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Check this out,
https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08/epa-seeks-to-prohibit-conversion-of-vehicles-into-racecars
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The EPA is self governing, It really does not have to answer to no one. They can make a suggestion and or ruling and the powers at be except it as a law.
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The EPA is self governing, It really does not have to answer to no one. They can make a suggestion and or ruling and the powers at be except it as a law.
The answer to this my friends to elect only Republican Conservatives to Congress and the Whitehouse. No they won't be perfect but they will reduce the size and power of the Federal Government. Get out the vote!
Randy Cuberly
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The answer to this my friends to elect only Republican Conservatives to Congress and the Whitehouse. No they won't be perfect but they will reduce the size and power of the Federal Government. Get out the vote!
Randy Cuberly
Randy, I agree with your comments 100%; we must get out the vote, but we must do more........the Convention of States Project will complete the job and must be done if We the People are going to regain control and rein in this runaway, out of control federal government. Be sure to check out the site below....it tells you everything you need to know about this process which is a grassroots movement authorized in Article V of the United States Constituion. This project is already underway in many states across this country as we speak. D>K
http://www.conventionofstates.com/
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Wow, another thread. Ty's right. We just don't have enough to keep us busy. I see too that another couple people can't restrain themselves from talking completely silly and irresponsible politics. The fact is that the FAA has in their pronouncements and responses included the words transmitter and electronically controlled. Sure, the FAA is full of employees who have no idea what a CL plane is. Those guys respond in ignorance and in response to internal directives from as abysmally ignorant people as themselves. That does not negate those missives from people more closely related to the FAA policy makers.
I am 70. While I pass for someone in his 50's, I've lived a long enough life, some of it in challenge of the law enforcers, to not give a rat's ass whether they try to punish me for being better informed then they. CL is not included. (period).
SK
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The thing is, R/C shouldn't be either. Why should the government have control over our hobby when we have done nothing to require it. Power still corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. When the government gets to powerful it becomes oppressive. It is supposed to be there for us, not against us. Political correctness is a farce to justify taking away our freedom. No, all government is not bad, but it becomes bad when it begins to control every little thing we do in one way or another. The requirement to sign up with the FAA is just another shinning example of government out of control.
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The thing is, R/C shouldn't be either. Why should the government have control over our hobby when we have done nothing to require it. Power still corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. When the government gets to powerful it becomes oppressive. It is supposed to be there for us, not against us. Political correctness is a farce to justify taking away our freedom. No, all government is not bad, but it becomes bad when it begins to control every little thing we do in one way or another. The requirement to sign up with the FAA is just another shinning example of government out of control.
Well stated Jim. Your are exactly right. Still, the government will not reform itself..........like it or not, that is up to We the People. D>K
A good place to start is here...... http://www.conventionofstates.com/
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I'm registered with the AMA, that's something, and it should be all that's needed. The faa made a gross mistake in judgment, and yes, they are overstepping their boundaries with ineffective and useless rule making.
Just as gun control laws only hamper law abiding citizens, this regulation will have the same negative effect.
The government appointed people need to take it upon themselves to become educated in this topic before they allow their standard knee jerk reaction to every little thing.
Until we start demanding this to happen, we'll get what we deserve.
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Got an email from the AMA today:
http://cl.exct.net/?qs=7baeece2ee4214807dd0378735505c377cdab1013db80be6208d417410e62d9f
Part of the Aviation Innovation, Reform, and Reauthorization (AIRR) Act is supposed to address the FAA's overstepping of its bounds. More as the story develops.
In the end, I don't really sweat this whole thing at all. Even if the AIRR act falls through, I give this whole registration thing a year--two at the most-- before it falls apart. I've heard from a few sources that are spread throughout the country that local PDs either aren't aware of the registration requirement, or simply don't care. Cops are busy enough busting crackheads and chasing down drunk drivers, and are prepared to tell the FAA that they are pretty much on their own to enforce their regulations. That leaves as good as NOONE to cite offenders.
I asked a FF buddy of mine what the overall consensus in FF Land is, since most outdoor FF models exceed the weight requirement and a lot of them have remote operated dethermalizers and, by definition, must register. He chucked and said that a collective "middle finger" is being given to the FAA. Makes sense. Most FF fields are either on private property and/or located in remote areas so it is highly unlikely that FAA examiners will show up to check registration.
So don't worry about "the 50m target" as we say in the Army. Things will go back to normal in the long run me thinks.
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Yeah....or get worse! These things seldom stay static. When people are hired to do a job in the Government they try to do it whether it makes any sense or not. They don't want lose their cushy job so they continue to invent ways to keep it. Sometimes they don't get away with it but usually they do. If nothing else they just continue to invent more and more complicated regulations so nobody really understands what they have to do to actually comply. As an example supreme I give you the IRS!!
Randy Cuberly!
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Well I just got home from Little Rock, after listening to the "UAV lecture" given by the FAA representative. He just got in from Oklahoma City after attending a UAV discussion there. I even taped the lecture. When it came to taking questions...I asked..."does a model airplane attached to your hand by steel wires, fall into the category of a UAV requiring registration?" His answer was "No!" "That is a tethered model airplane and is not required registration." No ifs, no if it has this, just plain No! But all of those other RC models (drones) weighing over a specific weight, will have to display a registration number, call the control tower or air traffic control and etc. and they are serious about it, however the enforcement issue is being worked out between the FEDS and local law enforcement.
Norm
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Well stated Jim. Your are exactly right. Still, the government will not reform itself..........like it or not, that is up to We the People. D>K
A good place to start is here...... http://www.conventionofstates.com/
And look at what we having to replace what we are trying to get rid of. A few should be behind bars now as well as some that are in office/positions now.