Red Baron crash footage

[kevin king]

Its at the 45:30 minute mark.

[Doug Moisuk]

Thanks Kevin. My two RB wings, stabs and Eli actors are done.

[Motorman]

Windy: Don't lose any of that Steve, we're going to put that together over at your house tonight.

[Air Ministry .]

Aw Come on .



" Thanks Kevin. My two RB wings, stabs and Eli actors are done. "

Have you got dimensions / drawings , for these ? . thanks.

Kevin , were there ever any Red Baron ' build tapes ' .   

[kevin king]

Yes! yes, theres a 15 tape set of the Red Baron build. But im only kidding you. There are none.

[Brett Buck]

Its at the 45 minute mark.

  If anyone wants to know what "whip up"/"wind up" sounds like from the outside, this is an excellent example (and probably why it crashed - couldn't turn it any tighter as it got faster and faster).

     Brett

[kevin king]

Doug, Piped Pa 75 right? Looking forward to seeing that!

[Tom Luciano]

Who was flying it? Bobby?

[peabody]

Yup the "Z man"....

Lots of good stuff on that video....including a pic of "Tradition"...the epitome (to me) of an Open PA model. It had around 3000 flights when the back half broke on landing...I believe that Dave has it now. Probably 20 different powerplants.

Flew pretty well after 6 or 7 years when I flew it....still had that terrific Windy pull.

[Dan McEntee]

  If anyone wants to know what "whip up"/"wind up" sounds like from the outside, this is an excellent example (and probably why it crashed - couldn't turn it any tighter as it got faster and faster).

     Brett

      The wing folded. You could just watch Zambelli's handle hand as he was going through the loops and it was going faster and faster.  I think that's why Windy kept the camera on him as there was no way he could track the model in that wind. The airplane was built in '87, was 14 years old, and been repaired several times. It had been an engine test mule and countless people had possession of it through the years and flown it untold numbers of times, and was fuel soaked from nose to tail! Look at the crash damage and all the fuel soaked parts. It's a wonder it lasted as long as it did!

    For more lessons in whip up and wind up, the 2003 NATS are up on the Walt Brownell Channel on YouTube and I think it was Top 20 day that the wind was at hurricane force?? That was quite thrilling to watch! Was that the year Todd Lee lost his Mustang and before anyone could get to the wreckage, the wind had blown all the foam shrapnel that was once the wing off into the corn!!  Nope, I don't like  flying in the wind!!
 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[kevin king]

Bob Zambelli Reflects on The Red Baron Crash

[Brett Buck]

      The wing folded. You could just watch Zambelli's handle hand as he was going through the loops and it was going faster and faster. 

    Yes, and you can hear the engine crank up as a result, adding more and more load.  I note that this could have been mitigated by doing the maneuvers 15-20 degree further to the left - the classic "bias".

   Several of these airplanes had some defect in the spar design, the airplane from the 94 NATs broke the spar but somehow the airplane stayed together during qualifying and, as here, Windy flew it faster and faster as the wind came up. I got 4.65 laps in the flyoff, it's a miracle it stayed together because it had noticeable dihedral even on the ground.

    Brett

[Air Ministry .]

Now , Pay Attention ! 

if you look & listen , youll see Laural & Hardy with the Transmitter for the THROTTLE !

Its a Satio 72 or suchlike in there , with the R. C. carb connected to a servo & reciever .

Unfortunately , having charge of the transmitter seemed just to much for certain peoples sensabilities .     

Discrete ' missinformation ' / changeing the subject appears almost automatically . Practised even . Perhaps theyve found themselves compromised previously . 

    

[Brett Buck]

Now , Pay Attention ! 

if you look & listen , youll see Laural & Hardy with the Transmitter for the THROTTLE !

Its a Satio 72 or suchlike in there , with the R. C. carb connected to a servo & reciever .

Unfortunately , having charge of the transmitter seemed just to much for certain peoples sensabilities .     

Discrete ' missinformation ' / changeing the subject appears almost automatically . Practised even . Perhaps theyve found themselves compromised previously . 

    

  Right, and at the fixed throttle setting, it wound up.

      Brett

[Robert Zambelli]

OK, a bit of clarification:
Yes, when Windy gave my the Red Baron, it was relegated to testing 4 cycle powerplants.
In the video, the plane was powered by a brand new SAITO 80 (not my engine!   )
In the past, it had flown with a SAITO 72, a SAITO 62, a SAITO 56, an OS Surpass 52, an ENYA 46 and an ENYA 53. All performed well but the ENYA 53, with a venturi of my own design, showed the most promise. Ready to fly, the plane weighed just over 80 ounces as I recall.

As previously stated, the plane passed through many hands and, I'm sure, MANY hard landings.
Yes, the wing folded BUT, it was not because of a design/build issue.
A post-crash autopsy revealed the main spar was broken and due to the amount of oil soaking, the break must have happened quite a while back.
Now, here's the interesting part. One of the previous owners must have noticed some wing flexing, indicative of a broken spar.
Instead of digging in and fixing the break, he/she simply ran a bead of epoxy on the OUTSIDE of the wing/fuselage juncture. 
The broken spar was contributing NOTHING to the structural integrity of the wing.
While flying, there was no indication of a problem. The wing just folded and it went straight into the asphalt. 
The plane was completely totaled but the engine showed only minor damage: Broken crankcase, broken backplate, bent crankshaft, bent connecting rod, broken piston, bent cylinder, distorted intake tube and broken carburetor. The prop nut, glow plug, valve covers and valve train survived perfectly.

Regarding Brett's comment about bias, this was not caused by windup. I did (tried) an abrupt inverted pullout and that's when things let go. 

And, THAT'S the rest of the story and I'm sticking to it.   
Comments?

Bob Z.

[kevin king]

Reminds me of the P51 Galloping Ghost crash.

[Robert Zambelli]

Reminds me of the P51 Galloping Ghost crash.

Kevin - which plane was that?

Bob Z.

[Dan McEntee]

Kevin - which plane was that?

Bob Z.

  The Galloping Ghost was a P-51 Reno racer that had history going back to the post war Cleveland races. Two famer brothers bought it surplus, and using the best knowledge and practices that had at the time, turning it into a successful unlimited racer. It competed in most of the post war Cleveland events. Then the sold it off after the Cleveland races ended and built a racer to fit the then new Goodyear sponsored class. There is a guy who lives in my area that was a friend of and crew member for the two brothers and he still has all of his memorabilia from those days, including letters and such from Goodyear regarding the new class.
   The Chost changed hands several times and ended up with Jimmy Leeward. He did some further modifications on it but did not do a through job of inspecting and replacing old parts, screws, rivets and such. In a race in 2010, I believe, he was pulling around the home pylon turn when he lost the trim tab off the elevotor. The plane pitched up severly and was pulling close to 20Gs at that point, and Leeward was pinned to his lap and not visible in the cockpit. the excessive G force probably killed him instantly. The plane coninued on in a arch fashion and rolled ove once, and crashed at a steep angle right at the foot of the grand stands. The plane disintagrated, several people were killed on the ground. It was thought that this incident would kill off the Reno Air Races, but they managed to continue. This years races start on September 14th and go through the 18th. It was a terible tragedy which could have and should have been avoided.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[kevin king]

[Dan McEntee]

    That's a hard video to watch. There is some footage out there of the Ghost from when it first pitched up and follows it to the impact. In my one time I was able to attend Reno in1999, I sat in those same bleacher seats for a short time. A similar incident happened to Bob Hannah when he was flying Voodoo in it's early days. Very similar modeifications, and the extra speed gained from those exceeded the limits of the hinge and tape on the trim tab and it pulled off, causing the same type of pitch up, but not as violent and steep. Bob was a bit hogher also. He blacked out, and the G-force pinned his body to his lap, and the airplane thankfully was in a climbing turn. At about 10,000 feet, Hannah woke up but still could not sit up, so he manuevered his left hand up to the thottle and pulled it back. He was dazed, and thought he was back  a few days earlier in a mayday situation he had during his qualifying run. He saw the race course below him, wondered how he got that high, put the power back up and made an attempt to get back into the course, but the airplane was almost uncontrolable without the trim tab and the rsulting damage fro it ripping off. He finally came to his senses, communicated with Steve Hinton on the chase plane and made a successful emergency landing. This was several years before the crash of the Ghost, and you would think that Leeward would have learned from some one elses near death, but he instead cut some corners, told a few fibs and the crash and loss of life was the result.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Jared Hays]

We lost Sherman Smoot and Czech Mate today

[Dan McEntee]

We lost Sherman Smoot and Czech Mate today

  That is very sad news. He was one of my favorites. His Yak was acquired from Bob Yancy, who started the race mods on it after selling his Corsair, "Old Blue", I believe. A sad day for air racing.

  Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

That was hard watching the video.  Reminded me of an early Indy 500 Race in which at the start some one lost control and caused a big firery crash that not only injured driver and spectators as well as causing a few deaths.   Our local track raise the height of the catch fence after a wheel came off a sprint car and landed in the bleachers.  So far since nothing has come over or through the catch fence.