Author Topic: Red Baron (Read 7647 times)

Bill Little · « **on:** December 20, 2011, 09:41:55 AM »

Hi All,

Does anyone know if Windy's "Red Baron" (probably Patternmaster aerodynamics and a ST .60) was ever drawn up as a set of available plans? I would ask Windy himself, but he is a touch hard to get hold of these days.

THANKS!
BIG Bear
AMM

Dan McEntee · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2011, 10:01:31 AM »

Hi Bill;
I'm going on a dim memory, but I think Windy used to offer them from his website at that time. I may be wrong, but isn't it basically a Pattern Master with outline changes to resemble the Red Baron? If Chris McMillin sees this, he may remember. I'm thinking that was in the mid-1990's???
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Bill Little · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2011, 10:24:39 AM »

Quote from: Dan McEntee on December 20, 2011, 10:01:31 AM

Hi Bill;
I'm going on a dim memory, but I think Windy used to offer them from his website at that time. I may be wrong, but isn't it basically a Pattern Master with outline changes to resemble the Red Baron? If Chris McMillin sees this, he may remember. I'm thinking that was in the mid-1990's???
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Hi Dan,

I *think* you are right, but AFAIK, Windy is no longer offering plans, etc. This and his B-25 are two of his designs that I do not have and would like to have.

Thanks
Bill

John Stiles · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2011, 11:19:50 AM »

This ain't the red baron, but you could paint it red.

Just ask Pat King

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2011, 12:57:05 PM »

yes - and I have them....

Bill Little · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2011, 02:03:30 PM »

Quote from: Wynn Robins on December 20, 2011, 12:57:05 PM

yes - and I have them....

Hi Wynn,

A PM is on the way to you!

BIG Bear
AMM

PerttiMe · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2011, 02:09:06 PM »

Did Pat Johnston have anything to do with the Red Baron?

I think he was involved with the Tsunami, at least, and has a few other Windy plans on his plans list.

If nobody is selling the Red Baron plan, it might be worthwhile to make an electronic copy and distribute it to ensure the design doesn't disappear. If Windy agrees.

peabody · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2011, 03:46:31 PM »

The Red Baron had a dual taper wing....

Bill Little · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:18:28 PM »

Quote from: PerttiMe on December 20, 2011, 02:09:06 PM

Did Pat Johnston have anything to do with the Red Baron?

I think he was involved with the Tsunami, at least, and has a few other Windy plans on his plans list.

If nobody is selling the Red Baron plan, it might be worthwhile to make an electronic copy and distribute it to ensure the design doesn't disappear. If Windy agrees.

I believe Pat has done the CAD work for several plans, and several different designers. When the Red Baron was "new" I am pretty sure the plans were "ink" drawn.

BIG Bear
AMM

Bill Little · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:21:17 PM »

Quote from: peabody on December 20, 2011, 03:46:31 PM

The Red Baron had a dual taper wing....

OK, Rich, your point is?

I have built two Mustangs with the leading edge cuff. One designed off of Windy's '89 Cardinal (20 Pointer) and the other using a lost foam fixture for Bob Hunt's Mustang.

Bill

peabody · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2011, 04:24:17 PM »

Misunderstood Bill...sorry...I thought you meant used Patternmaster wing...
I'm not sure what "Patternmaster aerodynamics" means...
Have fun!

jose modesto · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2011, 05:42:15 PM »

Big Jim cut the foam wing and foam tail for the Red Baron.
Jose Modesto

jose modesto · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2011, 08:45:41 PM »

Photos of Red Baron By windy at the 1989 Nat,s.
Photos from Kax Minato web site
photo #2 front row Bob Whitly, Wyndy. 2nd jimmy Cassale,Frank McMillan,Kaz,Mike Rogers Pattern Master 3rd row Fancher,Bill Rich and Paul walker.

Jose Modesto

Gene O'Keefe · « **Reply #13 on:** December 21, 2011, 01:25:52 PM »

You are correct....Windy is NOT selling any plans at this time.

Bill Little · « **Reply #14 on:** December 21, 2011, 10:49:02 PM »

Quote from: peabody on December 20, 2011, 04:24:17 PM

Misunderstood Bill...sorry...I thought you meant used Patternmaster wing...
I'm not sure what "Patternmaster aerodynamics" means...
Have fun!

Ahhh... Mr. Rich,

I think you DO know that Big Jim had a set of "numbers" of the "aerodynamic" sort that he developed for the Patternmaster line. Windy always said on his videos (at least for a while) that he used Big Jim's *aerodynamics* ('89 Cardinal 20 Pointer, Red Baron, etc., etc.,) .

Bill

Steve Fitton · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2011, 09:22:09 AM »

Who had that stock Patternmaster in the second row of Appearance Judging?

Mike Ferguson · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2011, 09:47:28 AM »

Quote from: Steve Fitton on December 22, 2011, 09:22:09 AM

Who had that stock Patternmaster in the second row of Appearance Judging?

Mike Rogers. It was a gorgeous airplane.

jose modesto · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2011, 10:08:51 AM »

Another shot of Mike Rogers Pattern Master Second photo is the samemodel in it's original paint scheme. Wyndy and Bill simond. Bill's model is a smaller "Scorpio" 40 size
Jose Modesto

Bill Little · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2011, 03:41:14 PM »

Unfortunately, Wynn's plans are for a recent .35 size "Red Baron". Nice looking plane, but not the Red Baron Windy built. Thanks, just the same, Wynn. It is a plane that looks like I would want to build it.

SO! Doesn't anyone know where to find a set of these plans? I know it wasn't "published", but someone has to have something.

Thanks!
BIG Bear
AMM

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2011, 04:17:14 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on December 21, 2011, 10:49:02 PM

Ahhh... Mr. Rich,

I think you DO know that Big Jim had a set of "numbers" of the "aerodynamic" sort that he developed for the Patternmaster line. Windy always said on his videos (at least for a while) that he used Big Jim's *aerodynamics* ('89 Cardinal 20 Pointer, Red Baron, etc., etc.,) .

Bill

You've got it right, Big Bro.
Windy did use Jim's aero numbers for all of his models at that time and Jim did cut those cores as I went with Windy to get them the first year I was with TWA, I spent a bit of time there in '88 and again in '89/'90 building my own model while living at Windy's house. Ignore Peabody, he usually is looking to berate or distort and I don't know why. He says Windy built my models, too. I guess even the ones when I lived in St. Louis.
Back to the Red Baron, it flew well enough, had a 60 and muffler, and did OK at the Washington Nats in '89. I flew the model in NJ a few times and it was typical of the era, heavy, nose heavy, took huge inputs to maneuver, and had a ton of lift and drag with that thick wing. The real, original built-up winged candy red Cardinal with the wing mounted landing gear of the year before was a much better flying model in my mind, but it could be just that it was not as nose heavy, much lighter, and suited my style better.
As an aside, my Golden Falcon flew just like the Red Baron because I just couldn't seem to add enough lead to the tail while dealing with that foot long nose. For the most of it's career it balanced ahead of the leading edge!
Merry Christmas...
Chris...

Bill Little · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2011, 06:10:16 PM »

Thanks, Chris.

My 3rd and 4th "Full Size" stunt planes were Semi Scale. A Veco Mustang and a Hemstraught PT-19 (Midwest kit). I have always like a scale looking stunter, just haven't built a full fuselage one since abut 1965! My de sires have turned back to those style planes. Since my name going on the Walker Trophy is nil, I might as well do what I like as far as stunters go.

Merry Christmas, Brother!

Bill

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2011, 12:11:47 PM »

The original Red Baron met its demise in May of 2001.
I was using it as a test bed for various 4-stroke engines.
At the bottom of the hourglass, the wings folded and it went straight in on asphalt, totalling both the plane and a brand new SAITO 80.
Turns out, the plane had gone through a number of owners. When a hard landing cracked the main spar(s), instead of fixing it properly, the then owner simply made epoxy fillets at the wing/fuselage interface.
The engine suffered a broken case, broken backplate, bent rod, bent crank, smashed valve cover and broken carb.

You can see the results. It was, by the way, a terrific flying aircraft. I flew it with an OS 52, ENYA 53, SAITO 72 and SAITO 80.
It weighed in the neighborhood of 80 ounces and the absolute best flights were with the ENYA 53.

Bob Z.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #22 on:** December 29, 2011, 08:40:44 AM »

And you are smiling. I would be crying my eyes out.

Pat Johnston · « **Reply #23 on:** December 29, 2011, 10:06:47 AM »

I did the plans to the Tsunami and Strega. If they can be used for a Red Barron, just holler.
Pat Johnston
Plans Studio
Skunk Works

Bill Little · « **Reply #24 on:** December 29, 2011, 10:22:00 AM »

Quote from: Pat Johnston on December 29, 2011, 10:06:47 AM

I did the plans to the Tsunami and Strega. If they can be used for a Red Barron, just holler.
Pat Johnston
Plans Studio
Skunk Works

Hi Brother Pat!

I am not sure how much will crossover between the Tsunami/Strega and Red Baron. I feel the wing would be very close with the added LE cuff of the P-51. But how much else is unbeknownst to me. Hope fully someone has a set of drawings, but it seems not.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Pat Johnston · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2011, 11:15:44 AM »

Brother Bill,
I'd have to check that I may have a 60 sized version of my Mustang 626. That would be a scaled up version as I recall for a friend. The balance of the 626 version would be just as good scaled up and pretty darned realistic. Personally, I like the 626 as a perfect blend of size, weight, and user friendlyness.
Pat

Bill Little · « **Reply #26 on:** December 29, 2011, 11:38:48 AM »

Quote from: Pat Johnston on December 29, 2011, 11:15:44 AM

Brother Bill,
I'd have to check that I may have a 60 sized version of my Mustang 626. That would be a scaled up version as I recall for a friend. The balance of the 626 version would be just as good scaled up and pretty darned realistic. Personally, I like the 626 as a perfect blend of size, weight, and user friendlyness.
Pat

Brother Pat,

Even though I am building the HUGE P47, I actually like the smaller size models more, also. They Do appear to be slightly easier to fly.

Bill

Larry Renger · « **Reply #27 on:** December 30, 2011, 11:43:02 AM »

Warren Walker has the parts from the original Red Baron that were given to him by Bob Zambelli. It really is in crumbs. I think trimming it is complete.

Bill Little · « **Reply #28 on:** December 30, 2011, 12:16:14 PM »

Quote from: Pat Johnston on December 29, 2011, 11:15:44 AM

Brother Bill,
I'd have to check that I may have a 60 sized version of my Mustang 626. That would be a scaled up version as I recall for a friend. The balance of the 626 version would be just as good scaled up and pretty darned realistic. Personally, I like the 626 as a perfect blend of size, weight, and user friendlyness.
Pat

Hi Brother Pat,

Knowing that 75% of your Mustang would be on the money, just drawing the turtle deck and canopy would probably do the trick. Gotta get that Reno Air Race look!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

PerttiMe · « **Reply #29 on:** December 30, 2011, 02:38:52 PM »

A Red Baron should really have the modified fin shape too.

Mark Misegadis · « **Reply #30 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:06:05 PM »

Here is a good one for reference. I shot this in December on my vacation to Florida. Mark

Mark Misegadis · « **Reply #31 on:** January 04, 2012, 05:18:37 PM »

Quote from: Pat Johnston on December 29, 2011, 10:06:47 AM

I did the plans to the Tsunami and Strega. If they can be used for a Red Barron, just holler.
Pat Johnston
Plans Studio
Skunk Works

Pat,

I am sure you know but for anyone else out here that may not. Tsunami was scratchbuilt and was not a modified Mustang. It is actually smaller than a Stang. I will admit that it has some similarities.

There is another plane out there that has that look and was intended to run in the unlimited class and smaller as well. It has that look. Here is a video that you all might like.

Mark

Doug Moisuk · « **Reply #32 on:** July 07, 2018, 12:34:11 PM »

Not sure if this post will appear. It's been a long time, but here goes.

I have been away from stunt for well over 20 years, but one of the last projects I was looking at was
Windy's Red Baron. I asked Windy for the plans but he said there were none. He sent me the rib drawings,(three of them) and the dimensions of the wing sections, (four of them). He also gave me his original fuse side drawings. I have a set of wing cores,(4), not sure if they came from Windy or Big Jim.

I still want to build it but I have heard of some flight problems and want to question Windy and cannot contact him. He's gone dark.

Tom Luciano · « **Reply #33 on:** July 07, 2018, 02:15:13 PM »

I had heard it was a very good flying plane.Maybe the best of all his designs. That's just hearsay but from a very good source. Windy can be found riding motorcycles in videos. His work was before my time in stunt.

Tom

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #34 on:** July 07, 2018, 08:01:54 PM »

Believe me, there were no flight problems.
It was one of the best flying planes I've ever owned (it was the original) and a perfect test bed for four stroke engines.
It was very easy to fly and went just where you put it - no surprises.
I let everyone fly it and they all loved it - it developed a lot of interest in four stroke engines.

And, right around EIGHTY ounces!

Bob Z.

Warren Walker · « **Reply #35 on:** July 07, 2018, 09:17:16 PM »

Years ago when I was building my Red Baron, Windy was on speed dial. I asked him more questions than I should have.
Then one day I get a package in the mail, It's addressed to Red Baron restorations. Bob Zembelli and Windy thought it would
be a good gag to send me all the pieces from the ill fated R/B In Bob's photos. Little did they know it would be one of my most
prized possessions, Thanks Bob.
There are still many measurements to be had from all the pieces.
W.W.

M Spencer · « **Reply #36 on:** July 07, 2018, 10:46:31 PM »

Sounds like if Doug & Warren combined info , maybe Robert still has something ?? ,
A accurate itteration could be got ' On Paper ', or whateveritis theyuse thesedays .

Some ' Early Build Pictures of the ' Full size ' Job .

Initially the upper & lower Cowlings were diffearant , to later . and was All Red .
See the Fins not full hight there yet . Next was Dorsal , then taller Vert Stab .

M Spencer · « **Reply #37 on:** July 07, 2018, 10:50:05 PM »

By Golly . a bit arelephant

, But Gen U Wine , RB 51 trivia .

Cool Man .

Warren Walker · « **Reply #38 on:** July 07, 2018, 11:51:32 PM »

When I finished my Red Baron I took it down to Chino to get Steve Hinton to sign it, after he signed it
we went over to one of his storage hangers and he pulled out a pair of tin snips and cut off a piece of sheet metal
from the tail section, just big enough for the tip weight box. It was a great day, and another one of my prized possessions.

When he found out I was a welder and metal fabricator I did some work for the museum. I welded three oil tanks for
the P-39. One for the front nose shaft bearing, the engine main oil tank and the engine coolant tank, when I took the tanks back
to him I told him no charge, so he says do you want to go for a ride in the Mustang? Well Duh!
That's another story.
W.W.