How about----STAND OFF STUNT?

[frank carlisle]

Stand off Stunt would be great for anyone who's plane looks best at ten feet.

[Jim Thomerson]

Are you flying on 10 ft  lines?  I need at least 60 ft to get my airplanes looking good. 

[frank carlisle]

I meant Stand Off Stunt for appearance judging.

[Dave Adamisin]

Like my planes I look better from a distance........

[Randy Powell]

I tend to classify my planes that way. This is a 10' finish, that's a 5' finish. And that one is a, well, it's better if it's dark.

[Paul Taylor]

Hey mine look better in pictures then in real life. That should count for something!

[john e. holliday]

I just worry if they will fly or not.  Just ask some people about by finishes sometime.   

[rustler]

My problem is I bring out a new model and it needs sorting. The longer I have it, the better it flies, but the more dog-eared it looks! We had a saying in the Hayes Club years ago - beware the heap that goes!

[Dick Pacini]

I quit taking pictures years ago because everyone knows that pictures add weight.  I didn't need it and the planes surely didn't either.

[Jerry Leuty]

We all love and want good looking planes. I remember E D ing a stunt contest back in the mid 70s. A man brought a nice looking stunt plane that was all Monocoat even down to the trim works. Now most of my planes are Monocoat and  rattle can color. Most of my planes don't last very long either. Anyway when I gave a nicely finished plane more points than the Monocoat plane the pilot's anger began. His anger persisted and he did not fly well. He left after his first official flight vowing never to return again. I guess he never did. Hey we are all human and we like what we like. I never expect to garner more than 15 points on any of my planes. And right now I am flying in the mid to upper 300 points range. My thoughts are that for whatever reason drop the static judging and have a separate beauty class. Then you can pay John Ashford or someone else to build it, paint it, and fly it for you. Just how deep is your pocket? Remember that this stuff is just for the fun of it.....................and Intermediate class is fun.

[john e. holliday]

Hey Jerry you will have to move up one of these years.  If the guy is upset because you down graded his Monokote, he should see where they put my profiles when I was first getting into stunt.    Now today it is all just for the fun if I fly. 

[jim gilmore]

Could mix this into a dual performance judging event.
Precision stunt singing contest.
best seen and heard from far far away.

[minnesotamodeler]

I sing solo--so low you can't hear it.

I sing tenor--ten-or eleven miles away.

I think my singing is better than my stunt flying, so that tells you where I am in stunt.

[W.D. Roland]

10ft Judging

Heck that means I could judge and not wear my glasses! I like that!


David

[Jerry Leuty]

  Look at the pictures of the Albuquerque contest from last weekend. Gary Marchand and Linda Brainard came out to the flight line wearing dark sun glasses and using blind walking sticks. Thus the old saying that the judges are blind. Truth is we don't fly as well as we think we do. I am all for developing a chip with GPS capabilities built in the tail of the A/C with a ground monitor set up to a computer with the stunt pattern programmed into it and let the facts speak for themselves. I'll bet no one flies expert then. As a judge the most common problem I see are intersections and 45 degree tops along with 5 foot bottoms. Get those right and your scores will improve. Stand off stunt? Yeah that is what we all do. There is; what we think we did, what the judge thinks they saw, and what really happened. I would love to take Bob Hunt or one of the all time greats and line them up with the computer GPS and see what is really happening. BTW, I saw Bob fly the last flight of Classic at VSC and it was magnificent. I felt like Charlie Daniels when he handed back the fiddle to it's owner and said; "That's how you do it son." As far as moving up a class, it will happen when I start flying above 400 consistently. We are working on it.............if I can just keep those nasty little planes out of the ground........................ )

[Bill Little]

HI Frank,

I would be all for the people around here reinstalling AP and using the 10' criteria!  

No AP/BOM is just wrong IMHO.   No one was ever left out of a contest when we HAD AP/BOM, and the dropping of it doesn't seem to have really increased the numbers that much, if at all.  More and more people are flying ARFs, and why not?  Most of them couldn't/wouldn't build a plane that good and I understand that.  But don't penalize those that CAN build good planes and take the time to do so.  A separate judging for *Beauty* doesn't answer it IMHO.  The NATS have that, along WITH AP.  Concours it's called. (isn't spelled right according to spell check! LOL!!)  Of course there is the *Little League* connection where everyone on every team, even those that don't win a game, get a *Trophy*.  That's the answer, just give a trophy to every one who enters, just for paying their registration fees.  Gotta make little Johnny feel good.........

Big Bear

[frank carlisle]

Bill,
When I started this thread I had just finished my Minute Man and had a serious case of post buildem depression. I was ashamed of it man! So I got to thinking that stand off appearance judging was a good idea. BUT, it flies so darn good that I've forgiven myself for not using a filler coat on it.
I agree with you on the point about not denying the guy who took the time to craft a beautiful model his fair share of appearance points. I'll just use filler coat on the next one.

[Jerry Leuty]

   Appearance points are fine but I don't agree with one winning their class due to a super sharp looking plane. It is Un-American to give everyone a trophy just for showing up............sort of like the Nobel Peace Prize. I just think that stunt judging alone should determine the best pilot that particular day. Not the one who designed, build, and painted it. ARFs are fine for contest flying if the pilot is being judged for their piloting skills alone. Beautifully finished planes are great too. Perhaps if one garnered the most points in the appearance judging they would get a free lunch meal or some other freebee. Then again 20 points is not that much in comparison to the overall flight score. Show up with a Gottcha, fly the wings off of it and win the class by piloting. When you realize it, if you  score say a 13 with a Monocoat and rattle can spray paint plane and another scores an outstanding 18 due to a $1000 plane, you can really make up the difference by just flying well.

   Well come to Dallas Labor Day weekend and I will judge your Classic model. Come back on Sunday and compete against me in Intermediate............................Jerry

[Peter Nevai]

I just wonder if and when will planes finished in iron on coverings not be considered second class in comparison with paint finishes. Other than the shine it is far harder to create a visually stimulating color and pattern scheme with iron on's than it is with paint. It is easy to do a fade with paint, or other such effects. Try that with monokote. Working iron on coverings especially on a built up fuselage so the seams are invisible and actually stay down is no easy trick. Curves and non linear shapes are equally demanding. No one worth his worth their weight uses the pre patterned trim sheets as the adhesive melts after a while and peels up as does many of the self adhesive striping products.

Yet put two models side by side, so long as the paint job is shiney it usually gets the ooooohs and aahhhhs. It has gotten better, go back several years and you were nearly exiled if you chose to finish a high performance stunter with film. I think that many still look down thier noses at those who use this finishing material exclusively.

[frank carlisle]

Plastic covering and paint finishes are comparable to zircons and diamonds.

[John Sunderland]

While I like the idea, we have a hard time getting a pile of Experts much less Beginners to one contest. You could call it Stand OFF Profile Guess What He WAS trying to Model with a SV 11 wing and a sharp number 11 blade!

[Jerry Leuty]

  Hmmmmmm, here is the point I think; A Monocoat covered model finished in rattle can color will look good and probably get between 10 and 13 points. A well finished plane may get a well deserved 18 points and all out of a maximum of 20 points........that is added to the flight score. OK fine. Each maneuver is worth 40 points. So a pilot takes his less appearance point plane and executes each maneuver near correctly and those few points between the appearance points goes away real fast. But I hate to see a less skilled pilot win their class just because they nosed out the second place pilot by a mere half point. I witness this in Dallas a couple of years ago. I was judging and if I had given this one pilot a full point more on appearance he would of won first place instead of third. There was a half point separating the top three of them. I am an honest man and I like to think that I deal with honest people. But I know that just isn't always true. Truth is we can get someone else to build and finish a plane for us that will garner some 19+ points. Depends if a cheap trophy is worth a $1000 in a nice plane or not. We have to keep our perspective here and remember that we do this for fun.

Jerry

[frank carlisle]

painting and plastic = coal and cow pies.
When a guy starts out on a new plane he can choose to use all of the things he knows the judges consider to be "best".
Going in knowing that a self built - painted plane garners top points a modeler that chooses a plastic finish must accept the lesser points.

[John Miller]

I'm sorry Frank, with respect, I must disagree with your posting about accepting the results from the choice between paint, and plastic film finishes.

A great looking finish should be rewarded on the merits of it's execution, regardless of the medium used.

A bad paint job, will suffer the loss of points legitimatly. A great paint job, will win you top points for finishing. In most cases, an equally great finish with plastic film, will not get you much better than the same points recieved, or less, than a bad paint job.

It's relativly easy to get a great finish using paints. Be willing to spend the time and bucks, and you will acieve that almost flawless finish.

When it comes to plastic films, it's often a lot more difficult to get a flawless finish. I believe we've all seen the average "Kote" finish, with it's bags and sags. Perhaps it's the preconcieved mental image that comes to mind when the judges hear the words, "Plastic film finish", but most will not give a superior plastic film finish anywhere near the points it deserves.

It might be that so few can really use these materials at the highest level, or it might be that the judges have no idea, beyond the typical sag and bag, of what it takes to execute a top film finish. Some even think that it's a few hours work, to finish with plastic.

Here, where I live we have a gentleman who excells in these finishes. If you didn't know it, you'd swear that he was painting his models. Obviously, for self preservation, he seldom mentions that his flying surfaces are the dreaded "Plastic".

[frank carlisle]

John,
If you are saying that a well done plastic finish doesn't get the respect it should. I agree with you 100%. If you are trying to get maximum appearance points and you opt for plastic anyway........what else can you expect but to take a hit on points. We already know what the deal with the judges is.
A preferance for paint over plastic is just a cultural thing amongst stunt people.
Plastic or paint----what's it worth? 3 or 4 points? That's not worth fretting over.

[Jerry Leuty]

I agree with that statement that it just is not worth fretting over when it comes to finishes. Personally I doubt that every pilot that shows up with a well executed paint scheme actually painted it themselves. But who is going to argue with them. If they say they painted it then you have to take their word for it. The main thing is fly to the best of your ability and have fun doing it. I use to have a pretty nice '55 Chevy Bel Air 2 dr. hardtop. I paid to get it painted, get the interior rolled and pleated, new tires. engine, chrome, and so forth. I put most of the car together by myself. It was a second place car by most standards. I had about $15,000 in it and a top car at that time was about $40,000. If I won first place at any given car show it was because someone with a nicer car did not show up. Get the point? If you won first place in a local contest in any class it is because someone more skilled did not show up to fly that day. No matter how good you really are there is always someone better out there. Enjoy you flight.

Jerry

[W.D. Roland]

In a way I am glad the Plastic vs Paint subject has come up as it has nagged at me a little.

I can do some rally nice paint work preferably with Dope or Auto Laqure as well as 2 part types.

Health issues have driven me more to the Plastic.
ALL the paints, except straight enamel(amazing) seem to make my Liver very unhappy.(Cirrhosis)

Is plastic easier? If 95% + of the airplane is going to be plastic then NO, Not by along way.

If I really had a choice 100% paint would be my choice on serious airplanes.

Shame that most judges would down grade this airplane for being 95% plastic( the cowl and canopy are paint)
Blow pics up big as possible and look close. Please note the camera used was junk.

That's just the hand I've be dealt so I play it.

Oh Yea. Not shown here but now has Red AMA numbers on fuselage sides. looks even better.

David

[Randy Ryan]

How about "stand on" stunt, if it looks that bad, put an end to it!

[john e. holliday]

I have seen several planes done with the iron on finish.  Had to really feel the plane to see if I could find the seams.  

[W.D. Roland]

I have seen several planes done with the iron on finish.  Had to really feel the plane to see if I could find the seams.  

Well just for you Doc I used some clear sealer on the seams and it has yellowed slightly so that locating them will be easier for you! This is worth a few score point I hope! 

Another reason I like paint better is no seems to lift with age or leave dark seem lines as fuel and dirt do there trick.

Randy, Your comments remind me of something my dad would chew on me about.
If I crashed one bad enough to not want to repair it I didn't even pick it up, Just planted a foot on each side of the M.M. and pulled engine and  mount out( more like ripped out) of wing, rolled up the lines and put whatever was left in trash barrel.
Now I try to find every last splinter and rebuild! The invention of super glue!

David