Judges moving based on ????

[Steve Helmick]

I tend to disagree with Don, on the Judges moving around. The flier should signal to the Judges where he will do his next trick, and then they should move only when so directed. What if the Judges move to the wrong spot? I think the flier would take a hit on points, and would have a very good reason to complain. If the flier can't be bothered to signal, why should the Judges move? I understand that the latest rules prevent the Judges from moving more than 1/8 circle during a flight, OBTW.   Steve


"STEVE..SORRY BUD!!! 
"Then if that is true...that the latest rule "PREVENTS THE JUDGES FROM MOVING MORE THAN 1/8 OF A CIRLCLE DURING A FLIGHT!" IS NOT ONLY DEAD WRONG....BUT IS AS LAME AS THOSE FLAT-FOOTED LAZYBOY HEADED JUDGES.....who handicap not only themselves...but even worse...lessens their ability to judge the very shapes of the pattern  from their ALL IMPORTANT VIEW POINT....BUT EVEN WORSE...IT SICKENS ME TO EVEN THINK THAT A FLYER WOULD HAVE TO LESSEN HIS ABILITY TO FLY HIS BEST PATTERN....BY HAVING TO COW DOWN TO LAZY FLAT FOOTED JUDGES, WHO ARE VIRTUALLY BLINDED BY NOT STANDING IN THE CORRECT UPWIND POSITION?
For an experiment...JUST TRY TO STAND IN ONE SPOT...RECORD A FLIGHT ON VIDEO....either slightly up wind or downwind, while another video camera is given to another judge who moves in cadence with the wind direction changes...
TRUST THIS!!!!
TALK ABOUT HOW DIFFERENT A PATTERN WILL APPEAR...FROM EITHER VANTAGE POINTS.

I have flown and judged numerous  precision sportkite competitions...and nothing will eliminate any judge faster...THAN A JUDGE WHO REFUSES TO MOVE TO THE UPWIND SIDE OF THE KITE PATTERN WINDOW!  The judging staff always move in cadence with the direction of the wind at all times...EVEN DURING A HUGE WIND SHIFT.
Even when kite patterns are flown with-in only HALF A WINDOW..HUGE DIFFERENCES IN SHAPES...WILL VARY GREATLY!
ROUNDS BECOME EGG SHAPES...SQUARES CORNERS BECOME VIRTUALLY UNJUDGEABLE...AS WELL AS HEIGHTS...ETC.
Nothing reeeks more disrespect than judges who refuse to understand  (or give a rippazzz) the aerodynamics of flying either kites or toy model airplanes, that are restricted to flying on strings...that rely on the flyers ability to adjust to the variations of wind conditions and direction changes.....AND THEN REFUSE TO WORK IN TANDUM WITH THE JUDGES...
BOTTOM LINE:
EITHER THE JUDGES NEED TO CHANGE..OR THE RULES NEED A CHANGE?
RULES ARE MADE TO BE BROKEN....ESPECIALLY IF THE RULE IS STUPID DEAD WRONG!

[Steve Helmick]

Rather than pollute the OH8 thread that Rootbeard started, I thought it would be better to copy and paste Don's post, and reply to it here. I think it's important, myself.

My objection is not to moving, but moving with no indicators from the pilot that I should move. I have my opinion about where upwind is (flying FF's for many years might help), but I know that I'm about 90' to 100' from the pilot and almost double that from the plane. I think the pilot has a better idea about where the wind is, relative to where the airplane is flying. VERY SELDOM does a pilot use their option to signal where they will do their next trick. I'm not sure how many even know the convention as to how that is to be done, as spelled out in the rule book. How many times have I moved to upwind (where I am) to have the pilot fly the trick anyplace other than directly downwind? MANY! Was I wrong? Well, maybe our opinions vary, but I am correct for where I am standing, honest. Maybe the pilot is also correct, for where he's standing. If he doesn't communicate his opinion, and I use my opinion, and I'm out of position relative to where he does the trick, he's getting screwed on the points assigned. I am MOSTLY trying to encourage fliers to signal per the book. I am also looking to take the burden of guessing off myself. I think that's pretty fair.

For those out of our area, I would also point out that our PNW winds are typically a lot less than 1) Midwest 2) Florida 3) Texas 4) any Desert areas and 5) Alberta. When the wind level is low, the winds will be shifting continually during a flight, as thermals build and move through, easily 180 degrees, quite possibly 360.

As for the new 1/8 lap rule, I believe that came with the adoption of the FAI version of the rules, but could be wrong. I'm not even clear on whether that 1/8 lap is per maneuver, or per pattern. I think it's one of those things...what if the Judge moves 1/7 lap, and some wiseguy decides to write a protest? There should be tolerance of +/- 1/64 lap , I'd think... Steve

[Shultzie]

STEVE...
SINCE PRECISION AEROBATICS...IS A JUDGED EVENT!!! AND IF U STEVE ARE THE JUDGE!

IF U FEEL LIKE PLANTING YOUR BUTT IN A CHAIR...OR SITTIN ON THE GROUND IN ONE DEAD SPOT LIKE SOME GURRRUUUUU ON A MOUNTAIN TOP!

DO WHAT WHAT U FEEL!!! YOUR JUDGING WILL REFLEX WHAT U SEE...OR FAIL TO SEE.
NUTTIN PUNCHES MY BUTTONS MORE THAN TO JUDGE STUNT WITH LAZY FEET, OR JUST DOESN'T CARE ENOUGH TO MOVE HIS KEEESTER.
IF YOU THINK PLANTING YOUR BUTT IN ONE SPOT WHILE THE FLYERS TRY IN VAIN TO FLY A DECENT PATTERN...JUST TO KEEP LINED UP WITH YOUR FEET N' EYEBALLS...

U HAVE EVERY RIGHT...CUZZZ U DA JUDGE!!! N' RIGHT OR WRONG...U'ZZZ ALWAYS RIGHT? RIGHT?

[Steve Helmick]

Uhhhh...Don...did you read the reasons I gave? I just want the pilots to use their right to signal the Judges, so that the Judges can be in the right place, as the pilot sees it. Is that too much to ask? I don't see why that would be construed as being lazy or wanting to sit in one place. I just want to be in the correct place, relative to where the pilot thinks is downwind. Comprende?  Steve

[Mark Scarborough]

NOt specifically in defrense of Steve, but more in defense of his position,(pun intended) I have flown in front of Steve, and other judges. I have watched as fliers moved their manuevers around the circle following the changes of the wind which here as Steve says, tends to move alot!.Very few, even in the advanced take advantage of moving the judges, but the few that do, get instant response typically from the judges. I also think it helps to show that the pilot is aware of his surroundings and in control which cannot help but shine positive on your scores. I for one would rather move the judges to where I want them (as if I really do know where the wind is coming from) as opposed to having them move totally on their own. when they move on their own, I have a tendancy to "believe" that they know better than what I am feeling at my back and it has cost me when I dont trust myself. Granted I am only just now an Intermidiate level pilot, but I have spent virtually my entire time at the contest watching flights and more importantly watching the judges. Its amazing how frustrating it is to have the pilot just moving his manuevers around without notifying the judge. Are they moving intentionally or are they just not in control of what they are doing?
my twocents worth

[Shultzie]

 
SEE WHAT I MEAN?
Kinda shows..after all these years.NOTHING HAS CHANGED.....especially that the judges are right....even if they are wrong. But that is the true nature of ALL JUDGED EVENTS....
whether in skiing, kite flying, figure skating..snow boarding or "Dancing with the Stars"

More time should be spent in communicating between the flyers and the judges. What a humanly impossible task at best..the reality of actually picking who is the best flyer of the competition.
 Drawing straws might even be a better way to pick a winner...especially when so many great flyers are saddled with judging staffs that....shall we say, less committed or just don't care to understand the problem and try to deal with the unacceptable inaccuracies of stunt flying in general.
If this sound harsh....then we need to conduct more judge training skills between the skilled flyers and the wave of newbee come along lately's judges that seem unwilling or able to dedicate themselves to a task that the majority of human beings would never have the nerve or common sense...to decline that invitation to take on the often thankless and humanly impossible task in judging any JUDGED EVENT.
SO UNTIL THAT TIME.... STOP BEATIN' A DEAD FLYIN RED HORSEY.
WE NEED TO JUST STEP BACK AND GO WITH THE FLOW...AND KEEP ON DRAWIN' STRAWS and keep that popularity FUN FLY THANG'  alive and well.
PEACE! BROTHAS IN BALSA!!! 
 

[john e. holliday]

Reading this post makes me think about how and why the "Pattern Master" was designed by Big Jim.  The sites that it was flown in had variable winds or lots of turbulance.  But, if the pilot does not tell the judge where he is going to do his maneuver, the judge should stay put.  My opinion,  DOC Holliday

PS:Give judges time to move and don't cry when you run out of fuel before the end of the pattern.

[Richard Oliver]

I would suggest that you refer to the rule book on this and not personal opinion or likes and dislikes. The rule is specific, although new, and is in effect till 2009.
All of the above mentioned options and likes and preferences are irrelevant to and not in the rules. 

Judges are placed by the pilot at the beginning of the flight and they can move 1/8 lap during the flight from this spot. If the pilot does not place them it is up to the judges to stay where they are or place themselves where they think they should be. Still from this point on, in the flight, 1.8 lap is all they are allowed to move from this spot.

RO

[Shultzie]

[quote
Judges are placed by the pilot at the beginning of the flight and they can move 1/8 lap during the flight from this spot. If the pilot does not place them it is up to the judges to stay where they are or place themselves where they think they should be. Still from this point on, in the flight, 1.8 lap is all they are allowed to move from this spot.

RO
[/quote]

NOW IS SOMEONE WOULD INFORM THE PREVAILING WINDS....TO STAY WITHIN THAT GOD-ALL-MIGHTY GOLDEN 1/8TH RULE! 
May the force and prevailing winds be with you in order that the judges  can remain cast in concrete shoes or in "LAZYBOY" CHAIRS.
 

[Richard Oliver]

makes it difficult doest it! Keith says they will change this in 2009 but for now it is the rule unless advertised 30 days ahead of time. It sucks and I think I was the only one to follow it last year at the Nat's. I placed the judges and then proceeded to fly the entire flight upwind. Judges were impressed and gave me a 560. I ran my but off the whole flight and whipped like crazy!
RO

[Randy Powell]

Richard,

Baring really strong winds, this is pretty much what I do. I pick a spot this is most likely to be downwind and that's where all the tricks go. If the wind shifts, it does. If we are flying really strong and turbulent winds (not uncommen around here), then I may shift maneuvers to stay away from directly downwind when I can. And I just take my lumps from the judges. I suppose I'd rather have a whole plane at the end of the flight.

[Marvin Denny]

  More than once I have told the judges that I was going to bias my inside and outside maneuvers quite a bit, and told them prior to taking off approximately where I was going to place those maneuvers.  I also told them that I didn't expect them to run their butts off trying to get perfectly aligned.  Then I went out and flew where I said I would.
  I wonder what the wind alignment rules are going to change to in the next cycle??  FAI  type? What?
  Bigiron

[Dick Fowler]

Richard,

Baring really strong winds, this is pretty much what I do. I pick a spot this is most likely to be downwind and that's where all the tricks go. If the wind shifts, it does. If we are flying really strong and turbulent winds (not uncommen around here), then I may shift maneuvers to stay away from directly downwind when I can. And I just take my lumps from the judges. I suppose I'd rather have a whole plane at the end of the flight.

You shouldn't be penalized for a judge being in less than ideal position.

14.5. General comments regarding the
marking of maneuvers. Although model aircraft fly
on the surface of a hemisphere, from the pilot’s
perspective all maneuvers are flown in plane
geometry —because all points on the surface of a
hemisphere are at an equal distance from the pilot,
the pilot sees all maneuvers as if they were drawn on
a flat sheet of paper. From their position outside
the circle, judges are, firstly, not in the ideal position
to view maneuvers, and secondly, they also usually
view maneuvers from a point which is not directly
opposite the center line axis of each maneuver.
Therefore the judges’ marking tasks include a large
element of personal analysis and situational
awareness that should take their own (less than ideal)
viewing position into consideration when awarding
marks. There are however a number of precise
definitions within the maneuver Rules which judges
must assess accurately if they are to award fair and
consistent marks. ...

I remember discussions about being penalized for not starting a Reverse Wingover at a point exactly upwind as indicated by wind arrow in the diagram.

[Shultzie]

HEY GANG...
I WOULD LIKE TO OFFER MY CONDOLENCES....(but a lilly-livered half-azzz apology) to PICKING THE SCAB'S OFF SO MANY OLD WAR WOUNDS...that over the years....I thought had turned to SCAR TISSUE??
Unfortunate to be sure, some of those malignent pattern cells...are gone...but still DORMANT IN THE MAJORITY OF ALL STUNTGRUNTERS...WORLD WIDE!

It has amazed me to watch so many world class  ICON flyers who have continued their own personal flying styles...without really making much effort to CONFORM TO THE GOLDEN RULES CAST FOREVER IN THE STONE RULE-BOOK TABLETS OF STUNT-DUMB!

Paul Walker if I remember correctly from our Boeing E mails...and lunch break moments...would explain that the FLYERS HAVE TO MAKE CHANGES TO THEIR EQUIPMENT, from the model itself...then to the most important factor...A POWER-PLANT AND PROP COMBINATION...THAT CAN, IN ITSELF LESSEN THE EFFECTS THAT WIND-WEATHER-ALTITUDE-ETC PLAY A MAJOR ROLE in presenting to a qualified judging staff.....a pattern that will be as close as humanly possible that will reflex the RULE BOOKS BELOVED COMMANDMENTS...PICTURE OF WHAT AND HOW THEY THINK THE  PATTERN SHOULD LOOK LIKE FROM THEIR VANTAGE POINT.

Take a look at this attached photo of Paul's Awesome model.
Especially when looking at that sizeable front end that housed one REALLY CONSISTANT POWER-PACKIN-PUNCHIN ENGINE AND PROP COMBINATION.
After seeing him fly with such consistancy in all kinds of weather conditition, altitude...but FAR AND AWAY MORE SECRETS TO HIS SUCCESS...lie under that beautiful red-white and blue skinned stunt model of his. (This tain't your Bob Gieske type of stunter that we see here...(don't get me wrong as nuttin wrong with a Gieske Nobler)...but to my way of thinking, IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TO ATTEMPT TO GET INTO THE HEAD OF PAUL WALKER....as I often tried in vain to do over the years....
One thing that I feel confident in saying about his concepts is...NUTTIN BEATS AN ENGINE AND PLANE THAT CAN BE "TWEAKED" TO PERFORM A CONSISTANTLY WORTHY PATTERN, IN ALL CONDITIONS.
Equally and far and away more important...is that PAUL KNOWS HIS EQUIPMENT, INSIDE N' OUT...AND HAS THE SKILLS THAT ONE IS BORN WITH...AND THEN HAS COMBINED THAT SKILL WITH A PASSION, DEDICATION, AND MOST OF ALL.....HE WORKED PROBLEMS WITH A GOAL IN MIND AND HAD THAT "INNER MINDS EYE" that I have talked about so often, to take hold of any problem and make a HUGE WINNING PLUS OUT OF A MINUS!

I have a difficult time...understanding how a Genius like Paul's mind can function with such clarity. Especially when one considers how many IRONS IN THE FIRE at his high stress Boeing Co. engineering job and equally wonderful family life.
AND STILL HAVE TIME TO DEDICATE HIMSELF TO BECOMING A WORLD STUNT GRUNT CHAMPION AT THE SAME TIME....

After all is said and done...or SAD N' DUNG'  especially for old burnt out stunt model addicts like me......it is beyond my grasp EVEN TO BEGIN TO THINK ABOUT HOW MUCH EFFORT  and weight that puts on the rest of us mere mortal human being stunt judges...that actually THINK
KNOW HOW A PATTERN SHOULD BE SCORED without going to  the extra effort to put in the study time that flyers of any skill level deserve. Whether or not they are a beginner newbee or an old seasoned ICON flyer.
 Both should be given equall effort from the judges LAZYBOY CHAIRS when it come to judging any stunt event.
 I think any judge with any knowledgeable background should take that extra time and put the same amount of PASSION as those flyers like PAUL, and other dedicated flyers of any skill level.

GADS! WHAT KIND OF STUFF, SNUFF HAVE I BEEN SNIFFIN? Ahhh! I could swear it had the sent of an old Aerogloss top coat clear spray can....

[Bill Little]

Hi Shultzie,

I believe the point that Paul has won the Walker Trophy with every type of IC engine, ST 60, 40 Pipe (PA and OS-VF), 4S, back to the OS 40 VF, etc., (don't even know if I left out an engine here) is an amazing feat in and of itself.  PLUS, he could fly an airplane, competitively at the NATS and WC, with 4 OS 15 FPs on it!

Yeah, I think the "Mother Ship" dropped him off here many years ago............

Bill <><