RADIAL IDEA PAY THE JUDGES

[John Ashford]

Question:  Would you pay $1.00 or $2.00 extra per official flight as a judging fee?

For example:  I fly three events at Brodak with two official flights per each. that would mean and extra $6.00 for me (at $1.00) in the total expense of the contest and trip.  Last year at Brodak there were 654 official flight in PA events and 38 judges.  So if you have a "pot" of $654.00 and an equal share to each judge, then the judges are paid a whopping $17.00 for their day's work.  That doesn't seem like much does it?  It's not but it is a good steak, a couple of breakfasts, five-six gallons of gas.  What it really is, is a way to at least in some small part say thanks for sitting out in the sun all day and allowing us to have contests.

Another thought:  What if CDs added a $5.00 judging fee per event as part of the entry to contests?  Would you not go because of this huge increase in expense?  At smaller contests the "judges pay" might be $5-10.00.  Not much but maybe lunch or a six-pack.

As my 86 year old Uncle says "well---------that an idea. maybe not a good idea but it is an idea."

Later,  John

[john e. holliday]

Sounds feasable to me.  To get good judges it would be worth the money.

[Peter Ferguson]

I'm not sure I can make that connection : pay = good judges. No problem with rewarding judges or anyone else who unselfishly devotes their time though.

[Marvin Denny]

I'm not against rewarding people who do duties at contests, but why is it limited to just judges?  Aren't the tabulators, runners, pit bosses, weigh and pull testors and those who spend hours and days marking and preparing the field just as important to the makings of a successful contest/event?  How about the timers and lap counters in the racing events??  Are they not just as important to the racing event as the judges are to stunt?
  If you start paying one group, you may cause hard feelings in others. If you pay ALL groups---  cost prohibitive for most clubs and contest management.
  Before I would start  such "rewards", I would  think about all the possible ramifications.
   

  Bigiron

[john e. holliday]

Well stated Marvin, not thinking on lthis end.

[wwwarbird]

(RADICAL)

[Paul Smith]

The AMA Nats currently charges $10 per event for all CL events except CLPA (stunt) which charges $45, presumably to pay judgers and other workers.  So the idea isn't all that new.  Obviously, a goodly number of people accept this tariff.

In the previous years, I've flown just about every catagory, except stunt, due to this fee.  CLPA got along just fine without my $45.  Maybe keeping casual "fun type" entires out is the plan.  If so, it works.

In Combat, Speed, and Racing, I pay $10 and expect to take a turn judging while I'm not flying or pitting.  The four ability groups in CLPA do an adequate job of providing a pool of judges who aren't involved in the group being judged.  I guess if somebody wants to try running local contests with a Nats-style entry fees and paid judges, they're free to give it a try.

[Mike Anderson]

Sounds feasable to me.  To get good judges it would be worth the money.

Also, you would need some system of certification to assure that they ARE "good judges".

[proparc]

Heck,  A long time ago, I "strongly" suggested the idea of free beverages and food for judges at our local contests. Socal is friggin hot man!! Just when you think no one is going to show, every da&* Tom Dick and Harry shows up. Some sort of compensation,(anything for crying out load) is long overdue.

Maybe free kits-supplies etc. I can tell you for a fact, if everyone who wanted to judge knew that they were going to get a free Saito 62 CL-Obama would be there with a judges pad in hand, ready to go. 

[John Ashford]

Ok, I've proven I can't spell.

I agree with most of the comments here whole heatedly.  Paul:  The reason the NATS fees are high are because of all the printing and paper work involved with the score sheets.  If you want to compete at that level then it is just the price of admission.

WE have moaned and groaned for years about what to to about judging.  No one is going set in the sun for 10-15 bucks or go after those "big bucks" simply because of the money.  Would it help to recruit judges? Maybe, maybe not.  I don't know.

Marvin made a very good point which I actually considered before I posted.  Without the pit bosses,  pull testers, sheet runners, tabulators and all the other volunteers that assist at contests they just wouldn't happen.  We take these people way to much for granted.  But without judges then it all becomes a fun fly.  No problem, I enjoy fun flys.  Another advantage to a fun fly is you don't have to have all the support personnel.

You don't solve a problem by just ignoring it. You must do something to  change the status quo.  This is a thought, nothing more nothing less.

Mike:  The National Little League Association does certify umpires.  This requires a person to pass a simple test regarding the rules of baseball  AND the signature of two certified umps.  A card is then issued and you can go out and earn the big bucks.  (16 years worth)  I think AMA would (for a fee of course) be the tabulators? or whatever.  Then on your card every year in addition to CD or whatever else you are they could also print Judge.

I am a firm believer in judges knowing the rules. Very surprised at how many don't but that is another issue.  A test would be a great Idea even it it only covered the very basics.  This of course brings up who makes up the test and a lot of other stuff.   It would require some effort but right now we don't need to go into all the details.

Point is lets either do something or quit crying about it.

Love you all,  John

[John Ashford]

Proparc:

District eight has supplied lunch and drinks at all D-8 contests to judges for many years.

Later,  John

[Paul Smith]

Not to beat a small issue, but.  Is the Nats paperwork $35-a-man more than a local stunt contest?

In a baseball game with 25 men on a team, you have 50 payers for one umpire.  I'm afraid the players-to-judges ratio at model contest is not so profitable.  Mixing a large number of free volunteers with a few paid workers is risky bidness.

[john e. holliday]

Proparc:

District eight has supplied lunch and drinks at all D-8 contests to judges for many years.

Later,  John

What about the tabulators, score sheet runners and the guy/gal running the pit.

[John Ashford]

Paul,

First:   I don't have a clue about the cost of NATs paperwork.  When I asked the question in 03 that's what I was told.

Second: If you're happy with the status quo with the judging situation then that's fine with me.  A lot of discussion has gone on griping about it.  I opened this discussion in the hopes that other people who love this hobby as much as I would make an effort to improve it.  IF every one is happy then I'm happy too. I've been dealing with it for 50+ years.

But IF it is going to change at all then we need ideas and serious discussion about how to do that.  IMHO

Later,  John

[John Ashford]

Doc,

Yes

[Howard Rush]

You'd need to hear from Warren Tiahrt or Paul Walker about the Nats budget and other operational details, but I can offer a couple of facts.

Cost of paper and toner for printing two copies of 1300 scoresheets is trivial.  A brief Web search suggests two cents per page, but the toner is sparse on scoresheets, so I'd reckon a little more than one cent per sheet, about 50 cents per contestant.  At least some, if not all, of the computing and printing equipment is donated, as is the software.

Advanced and Open fliers fly concurrently, so they can't judge each other's event.

Attempts to provide a cadre of trained judges have come to naught.  Nats judges receive training at the Nats before the event.  They do just fine.  

The Nats is an excellent stunt contest.  I have had a very minor role in putting it together the last couple of years.  The main thing I got from that experience is an appreciation for the immense amount of work Shareen Fancher did for decades to maintain that excellence. 

[Howard Rush]

  Mixing a large number of free volunteers with a few paid workers is risky bidness.

You got that right. 

[Clint Ormosen]

My judging fee is $50 per round + a $10 "over 90 deg day" premium. 


Seriously, I would never expect to be paid for judging. In fact, I wouldn't accept any pay if it was offered. It's just doing my part to have contest fun. I do expect everyone to do their part as well, though. It's not cool to have to be a judge at every contest because no one else will volunteer.

[Ted Fancher]

The Nats is an excellent stunt contest.  I have had a very minor role in putting it together the last couple of years.  The main thing I got from that experience is an appreciation for the immense amount of work Shareen Fancher did for decades to maintain that excellence. 

Thank you, Howard.  Shareen will appreciate your thoughtful acknowledgment.

Ted

[peabody]

Yes, there is a VERY SMALL stipend (around $100.00) to folks that judge Precision Aerobatics the National Championships...it does a decent job of covering lunch and whatever soda pop the judges may consume their week of efforts....it in no way covers any other meal, nor lodging....it's a nice jesture though.

I think the idea of a paid judging corps sucks....even a volunteer "judging corps" is bad enough...

Volunteer! Put something back!

Have fun!

[Dennis Moritz]

I feel subsidized big time when attending Brodak. $17 is way too much pay. It'll buy 34 Brodak hot dogs. In any case, RADIAL ideas make my head spin.

[Jerry Leuty]

     John, I for one understand where you are coming from. I have judged stunt, combat, and racing in my years of C/L. You know we do this stuff because we love it. A free dinner at the field is pay enough for me. Of course my wife is active in the club along with Linda Gleason and we always bring food and she also serves lunch. She does this because she loves me and loves what I am involved in. I follow her quilting hobby as well. But like your old uncle said about your idea, "It's an idea."

      Have you read Rudy Taube's article on page 18-19 of the March/April Stunt News. I remember you writing an article once about judges and being judged fairly. This whole judging thing is strictly subjective and whether it is you or I judging we owe the pilot a fair judge. Ones personal self centered opinion of a particular plane or person should have no bearing on the pilot's flight score. Then I have to remember that this is not a lively hood and being critical of a bad judge will not bring back a bad score and make it a good score. We do this stuff because we love it. I just hope that no one ever accuses me of being a bad judge.

      Here is another idea; go by Cracker Barrel, Chili's, or some place and pick up a couple of $10 meal gift certificates. Then if you want to reward a particular judge you may do so without anyone knowing about it.

Jerry