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Author Topic: Rabe Rudder question  (Read 2476 times)

Online Paul Taylor

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Rabe Rudder question
« on: November 26, 2013, 08:00:40 PM »
Ok I did a search and did not really find the answer.

If you have a reversed pitch prop turning the other way would you need a Rabe rudder?
Paul
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As my coach and mentor Jim Lynch use to say every time we flew together - “We are making memories

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2013, 08:31:29 PM »
Ok I did a search and did not really find the answer.

If you have a reversed pitch prop turning the other way would you need a Rabe rudder?

   Hypothetically the same problem with the opposite sign.

    Brett

Offline peabody

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 06:50:11 AM »
Did anyone (other than Windy on quite a few PM derivatives) and Al Rabe himself have any success with one?
Fooling with one of Windy's one day, I found that it went from some offset to what appeared to be no offset....

Just curious...

Online john e. holliday

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 07:42:49 AM »
The Rabe rudder is set up or set up properly will go to the inboard side of the plane on down elevator.   This is for regular IC engines or even Electric if flying the counter clockwise prop.    Don't know if it makes a difference on the clockwise props.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 10:07:32 AM »
The Rabe rudder is set up or set up properly will go to the inboard side of the plane on down elevator.   This is for regular IC engines or even Electric if flying the counter clockwise prop.    Don't know if it makes a difference on the clockwise props.

   It definitely will make a difference.

     Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 12:25:35 PM »
Inboard side with down elevator, said Doc.. Is it so? I'd say opposite but I'm often wrong. L

Online john e. holliday

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 12:53:55 PM »
Shows it on his Big Bearcat build over on Stuka Stunt.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Bob Whitely

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 01:34:29 PM »
Doc, You're pretty close but no banana. The rudder moves out on down and back to previous
setting or even a touch of left rudder on up.  You might just be looking at the plans
in reverse? Sincerely RJ

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 01:46:19 PM »
I used a version if one on my Predator at this years Nat's. It moves out on down but doesn't move on up.

Matt Neuman used a reverse pitch prop this year and a Rabe rudder with the opposite deflection. It moved out on up! I watched it fly and it didn't look too happy. Could have been the amount if deflection or the shape of the deflection curve. Also, the lead out placement (up line in front or back) could have been opposite what it needed, but I failed to check that on his plane while there.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 05:46:31 PM by Paul Walker »

Offline Trostle

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2013, 01:56:08 PM »
The Rabe rudder is set up or set up properly will go to the inboard side of the plane on down elevator.   This is for regular IC engines or even Electric if flying the counter clockwise prop.    Don't know if it makes a difference on the clockwise props.

OK, a quick discussion on gyroscopic precession and our CLPA models.  For a model with a counter clockwise turning propeller, viewed from the front, the model will yaw to the left on outside turns and yaw to the right on inside turns.  The yawing forces are opposite for a clockwise turning propeller.  Now, Al Rabe did not invent gyroscopic precession, but I believe he was the first to be able to trim his airplanes to minimize the undesirable affect that line tension tends to be reduced on outside maneuvers.  He devised a system so that right rudder is increased on outside maneuvers and the amount of rudder offset is changed for inside maneuvers.  (For Al, he decreases the amount of rudder offset for inside maneuvers by about half or one-third the amount he increases rudder offset for outside maneuvers.  The success Al has had over the years with his super semi-scale stunt ships (S5) cannot be criticized.

Now, to answere a previous question if others have used this.  I have incorporated a movable rudder trim capability in my CLPA models since the early 70's after Al introduced the concept.  By some measure, I have had some success in competition with these models.  I have encountered other modelers who also use this concept in their CLPA models including some at the World Championships. I use a system whereby the rudder control mechanism is completely enclosed and I can program the rudder travel and rate with any given elevator position.  I use a different trim process than Al that seems to suit my models.  I have found others who also have found the same thing.  Al's system works for him because I think he sets sets his model up differently than others that does not need to be discussed here.  Whatever it is, it works for him.

Al has written extensively about his system in the publications and on these forums.  Alternatives to his linkages have also been published and appear in the forums.

Now, is it really necessary to have a Rabe rudder capability in our CLPA models?  Probably not given that most contests have been won and will continue to be are won by models without that capability.  My opinion is that it helps and it is definitely worth the effort to have that capability.  It is reassuring to have all the line tension I want (which can be trimmed in) during the high outside maneuvers.

There is an interesting experiment that will demonstrate what gyroscopic precession is.  Mount a propeller (the heavier the better) on a shaft in a 1/4" or 3/8" drill.  Hold the drill in your hands and turn it on.  Then, rotate the drill up and down (as in a pitching maneuver).  Then reverse the drill rotation and you will feel the opposite affects.  It is surprising what those forces are, even at the relative low rotational speeds of the drill compared to our engines/motors.

Keith

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2013, 01:59:50 PM »
Inboard side with down elevator, said Doc.. Is it so? I'd say opposite but I'm often wrong. L

     The excursion required with a conventional rotation prop to overcome precession alone* in an outside turn is right rudder/outboard motion, not inboard. The way most of the plans are set up, the rudder moves outboard exclusively on outside turns, inboard a bit on inside turns, but back outboard again  at higher deflections (that you may never get to). Al's default neutral setting is substantially right rudder, so it never gets to be left rudder, just less right and more right.

      The recommended trimming method results in the most symmetrical line tension between hard outside and hard inside corners regardless of what else is going on. Perhaps even to your detriment as adjusting only the rudder might cause you to overlook other issues.

    The effects of precession alone are definitely reversed with backward props, nose-in torque on insides, and nose-out torque on outsides. However, almost all of the other factors are still the same (like, the inherent sensitivity to left rudder is much higher than the sensitivity to right rudder, there are more inside turns than outside, the outside turns are more prone to loss of line tension because of their positioning, etc). The only one that also switches signs with prop rotation is P-Factor.

    Brett

Online john e. holliday

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2013, 07:41:10 AM »
Well I stand corrected and will have to finish reading the discs that I got from Al and also return to SSW to look up the info again.  Thanks gentlemen for not tar and feathering me.  Old age creeping in.  Now you know why Noah didn't listen to me on the construction of the Ark.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2013, 11:52:01 AM »
Well I stand corrected and will have to finish reading the discs that I got from Al and also return to SSW to look up the info again.  Thanks gentlemen for not tar and feathering me.  Old age creeping in.  Now you know why Noah didn't listen to me on the construction of the Ark.

   Truth be told, there's a whole lot to this topic, and unless you deal with this sort of problem all the time, it's pretty easy to get the details mixed up. And there are several aspects to this that have never been addressed in print, to my knowledge. For example, I have never seen any reference to the fact that a given amount of rudder motion is far more effective in preventing left yaw than right yaw anywhere aside from one casual mention on SSW 10 years ago.

   Brett

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Rabe Rudder question
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2013, 05:43:53 PM »
I had flown my Silver Lancer quite a few years when I modfied it to include a Rabe rudder.  Windy had watched my flight at Brodaks and suggested that it would help.  After making the modification I noticed much better line tension across the top of my hourglass figure and less yawing on the outside corners on my squares.

Scott


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