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Author Topic: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past  (Read 8602 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« on: March 21, 2018, 02:12:29 PM »
Hello,
Is Rabe Rudder the necessity for the modern 60" wing span, 60-65 oz. planes or simply another gizmo inherited from the long gone era when the ST60 ruled the circle?

Regards,
M.








Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2018, 02:44:34 PM »
Based on the historical record, no.

Ted

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 03:52:43 PM »
Matt, are you a pretty good trimmer by now?
Chris...

Offline phil c

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 04:57:15 PM »
 If you build one of Al's designs you almost have to use the moving rudder, gently trimmed as Brett points out.  They need it to offset not so good characteristics from the semi-scale features.  Without it they would not fly very well.  That's why he developed it.  He wanted scale appearance and the Rabe rudder was needed to make it fly.

Obviously, the much newer, more developed modern designs don't need it at all.  They're designed not to need it.
phil Cartier

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 05:18:53 PM »
Is Rabe Rudder the necessity for the modern 60" wing span, 60-65 oz. planes or simply another gizmo inherited from the long gone era when the ST60 ruled the circle?

    Neither. And it came from a time long before ST60 "ruled" anything. It solves a real but generally minor problem, with the unfortunate side effect that no one, particularly some of the most staunch advocates, seem to be able to trim well enough to take advantage of it. Get everything else right, and you end up with small residual yaw angle that doesn't make much difference - but only in the most rare of rare circumstances does anyone get everything else right enough to make the slight additional improvement from the rudder worthwhile. Most people fixate on the rudder as the cause of or solution to every trim problem they have, and end up with 10X more movement than actually necessary to remove the desired effects.

      It's the same effect as most tuned pipe runners, every engine run problem is a "pipe length issue" so let's wildly adjust it from flight to flight to "solve" the problem.
   
      Brett

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2018, 07:29:57 PM »
Hello Try disconnecting the Rabe rudder on your semi scale model and just fixing it and see how it feels !  ;)

I was surprised on my overweight ME109 with Fox 60 that I actually missed my wiggly rudder and promptly reconnected it after trying it in fixed mode.
Just my experience and I'm a chap pilot and heavy builder but even I felt something happen that I liked when it wiggled its tail feathers  n~

Regards Gerald

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 10:06:46 PM »
Brett's answers is one I love. It hinges on the basic problem with the human condition to every sport and hobby I have followed. When do I make an adjustment. Weaher it be bowling model airplane or archery. You should only make an adjustment after getting a repeated result while doing everything else 100% correctly. Often we either make other mistake, making the correction unneccessary or too much.

Offline Fred Underwood

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 04:47:31 PM »

Is Rabe Rudder the necessity for the modern 60" wing span, 60-65 oz. planes or simply another gizmo inherited from the long gone era when the ST60 ruled the circle?


In a more specific answer, I thought from reading that it is an integral part of the MaxBee design that you are building.  Perhaps Igor will comment.
Fred
352575

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2018, 05:38:53 AM »
Hello,

"You should only make an adjustment after getting a repeated result while doing everything else 100% correctly. Often we either make other mistake, making the correction unnecessary or too much"
goes into my Little Black Book of C/L Flying. Thanks, Jim.

Ted's "no" goes into this book too.

I am still waiting for Igor's verdict in this matter.

Best Regards,
M








Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2018, 08:07:33 AM »
Matt, you know my meaning, I think you started this thread to verify what I wrote you in mail. For others: I saw Matt's fuselage and I saw that he has fixed rudder, so I mentioned it is good idea to make it movable. But since it is just flat plate of balsa, I mentioned that it will be easy to cut it during trimming when he will see it is necessary. But ok, I will write more so others can read.

We are speaking about Max Bee. Fred is right, Rabe rudder is integral part of the design. I wrote it already but here it goes again: Max Bee has long nose, it is not accidental feature, my target was to design sidewise area with very low sidewise margin of static stability (= insensitive for side wind). Means the rudder does not have power to point nose against wind itself.  Means the only stabilizing source for yaw are tight lines. Means model must be well trimmed to keep proper angle in air.

Since we have yawing precession, that stability from LO can be too tittle, so prop with very low moment of inertia (for low precession) and active compensation from Rabe rudder will help lot. That is reason why it uses Rabe rudder.

However Rabe rudder is not the only reason for movable rudder. The second reason is that adjustable rudder is very effective and straighforward trimming tool. If I had to choose between adjustabe LO guide OR adjustabe rudder, I will certainly choose rudder and fixed LO guide.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2018, 10:37:11 AM »
"However Rabe rudder is not the only reason for movable rudder. The second reason is that adjustable rudder is very effective and straighforward trimming tool. If I had to choose between adjustabe LO guide OR adjustabe rudder, I will certainly choose rudder and fixed LO guide."

Wow!

For a bit there I thought my GBR-3 would be at a loss without the Rabe Rudder?

I went with fixed LO and an adjustable rudder. I guess made the right choice.  ;D


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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2018, 03:09:16 PM »
Igor Burger's Max Bee article is the most technically sophisticated article on control line stunt that I ever read.  Thank goodness  that Max included in his article of his World Championship Max Bee that he used a Rabe Rudder "to keep his fuselage in the wanted position."  I think he was referring to an ability to control the Max Bee yaw attitude in maneuvers.

Al 

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2018, 03:40:44 PM »
Hi Igor,
I do not have the fuselage yet for my Max Bee II. It is possible that you saw the plane that I will be flying in Europe this summer. This plane resembles Max Bee II but differs in many important details. One of them is fixed rudder (no hinges and no adjustment). I will trim this plane during first 20-30 flights in May in Poland before Hradec Kralove contest and convert the rudder to hinged and adjustable. Ref: the method used by Avaiojet.

Following your explanation,  Max Bee II (that is build by me in Toronto) will have the Rabe rudder.

Regards,
M





 

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2018, 06:34:40 PM »
Yes Indeed . Mr Notnowski states ' Anything Over a 12 inch prop , ( He ) use (es ) a Rabe Rudder . *

Was Horrified when I put a 13 in Prop on my P-51 ( No movie rudder ) Horribly Loose on Inside Manouveres .

* this is the PROCESSION Problem . Noteably Big Heavy Props . not Igor mentions Procession .

Can Be a Buzz Saw hauling the nose off over there , working hard in a corner in real wind

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2018, 08:47:30 PM »
Igor Burger's Max Bee article is the most technically sophisticated article on control line stunt that I ever read.  Thank goodness  that Max included in his article of his World Championship Max Bee that he used a Rabe Rudder "to keep his fuselage in the wanted position."  I think he was referring to an ability to control the Max Bee yaw attitude in maneuvers.

        I agree, and I would note that he is using the rudder to hold a specific non-zero yaw angle, rather than holding it near 0, and that precession is not necessarily the biggest problem he is trying to solve. Holding it at a significant non-zero angle would require some sort of compensation even if he had no precession at all (or at least no precession from the prop) He's trying to hold the angle while rotating about an axis that is not lined up with the principle axes, that requires torque even if nothing else was going on, actually, quite a lot, swamping the small amount of IxIomega from the motor/prop.
   
    Brett

p.s. this is a brief discussion of the topic (from 14 years ago):
http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=129401&mesg_id=129401&listing_type=search#129423

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2018, 08:09:27 AM »
Hello again,
Please see the attached.
What is your opinion about this design of the Rabe rudder?

Very simple and there is full access to connections.
M


Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2018, 09:00:19 AM »
I would like to go back and read that article.  What issue was that in?

Thank you

Doug
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Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2018, 10:11:15 AM »
I would like to go back and read that article.  What issue was that in?

Thank you

Doug

Igor has the articles available on his site.  The original articles were part of a two part series in the Jan/Feb and Mar/Apr 2013 Stunt News issues.

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_1.pdf

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_2.pdf

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2018, 10:15:48 AM »
Igor has the articles available on his site.  The original articles were part of a two part series in the Jan/Feb and Mar/Apr 2013 Stunt News issues.

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_1.pdf

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_2.pdf



    Al is absolutely right, even if you don't copy it (and I certainly don't, and wouldn't recommend trying to copy it - we already have people building "modified Max Bees", which is almost certain to remove the interesting features), the article itself is something that anyone serious about stunt should read.

     Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2018, 01:32:46 PM »
Hello again,
Please see the attached.
What is your opinion about this design of the Rabe rudder?

Very simple and there is full access to connections.
M

That is very similar to the ones we used on my early  60 designs, The big SVs  and  SV11  when we ran  13 inch plus props, the only difference is we ran them on bottom, and  we used a  very small  light  plastic link , that we could screw in and out for easy adjustment

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2018, 01:38:57 PM »
Hello,
Is Rabe Rudder the necessity for the modern 60" wing span, 60-65 oz. planes or simply another gizmo inherited from the long gone era when the ST60 ruled the circle?

Regards,
M.

Matt

The answer is  NO for many planes, and  is a  must ,YES,  for others, example would be a lot of scale, or small thin fuse planes, Scott Bair, for example  designed them for use for his planes, I have his planes, and if you run 12 inch props, they work fine with the rudder fixed, however  IF  you run the  14, 15, 16 and 16.5 inch props that Scott ran, then you have to use it.  Scott  was very smart in the fact that his  Spitfire  rudders were  large, but  he  only hinged the bottom part of the rudder, that was inine with the fuse, to move, So he only used  about the bottom  30%  of the rudder  to function as a  Rabe  rudder.
When setup right, nothing happens and you do not notice, when fixed, the planes yaws very much, when setup improperly  as Brett alluded to,  its a  bear  to deal with.
With the  SV airplanes, the  Rabe rudder  worked very well, and it kept the  fuse  straight during maneuvers  , We used a lot of  13  13 1/4  and  13 1/2 in diameter ter props, I even used a few  14 inch props. The  Rabe rudder  was the only way  to keep the yaw from being excessive and making the plane  not competition usable.   One of the  biggest  problems  I saw  with some of the movable rudders , was  people used  WAY  TOO  much  movement

Another example would  be  the Patter Master guys,  Mike Rogers  used the rudder with success and  maybe others, his plane  as trimmed  very well, went thru the pattern  very clean,  and  the rudder  was part of that, There  may have been others that used this, I am not that familiar with all of them,  maybe  Windy would be an example, I think he had a few ships that used the  rudder

Randy

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2018, 03:01:13 PM »
Hi Randy,
I will use 11.5 x 6  3 blade carbon composite Pol-Props and 11 x 5 and 12 x 5  3 blade carbon composite Igor's props powered by electric motors.

Using or not using the Rabe rudder is part of my never ending experiments and only the flight tests will show what is really needed for my flying style and my Max Bee II. I have promised myself to build this unique and beautiful plane according to Igor's plans and I will do it.

I hope to fly the pattern better using this plane but, at the same time, I am not forgetting about Ro-Jett76 patiently waiting for its turn. One day I will use this engine and, because it needs a lot of prop, I will use perhaps 4 blade carbon composite like Windy many years ago.

Best Regards,
M

 

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2018, 03:34:14 PM »
Hi Randy,
I will use 11.5 x 6  3 blade carbon composite Pol-Props and 11 x 5 and 12 x 5  3 blade carbon composite Igor's props powered by electric motors.

Using or not using the Rabe rudder is part of my never ending experiments and only the flight tests will show what is really needed for my flying style and my Max Bee II. I have promised myself to build this unique and beautiful plane according to Igor's plans and I will do it.

I hope to fly the pattern better using this plane but, at the same time, I am not forgetting about Ro-Jett76 patiently waiting for its turn. One day I will use this engine and, because it needs a lot of prop, I will use perhaps 4 blade carbon composite like Windy many years ago.

Best Regards,
M

Matt
I would  advise you  to use the  rudder  exactly like  Igor  does on his electric ship, this will give you something  to change and  compare, and  you can always  just remove the rudder pushrod, and make the rudder adjustable, This  is very easy to do with a dual side  light plastic horn, or  a  one side horn with a removable  screw -in  adjustment rod

Regards
Randy
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 05:15:59 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2018, 08:36:32 AM »
Igor has the articles available on his site.  The original articles were part of a two part series in the Jan/Feb and Mar/Apr 2013 Stunt News issues.

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_1.pdf

http://www.maxbee.net/download/MaxBee_2.pdf



Thank you!!
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Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2018, 12:28:55 PM »
RABE RUDDERS AND REVERSE ROTATION
Recently, I’ve seen a number of comments by builders of airplanes with
reverse rotation electric motors to the effect that their airplanes trim best if
the “Rabe Rudder” is disabled. I think it is important to point out that a
“Rabe Rudder” works well to trim the gyroscopic precession as long as it is
used with normal rotating engines. Reverse rotating motors have the effect of
magnifying instead of minimizing the effect of gyroscopic precession on our
airplanes.
The Rabe Rudder is an old invention dating back nearly a half century, but
not in general use by most stunt flyers. I was glad to see that the 2012 and
2014 World Champion Igor Burger remark in his Max Bee article in the
Jan/Feb 2013 in Stunt News that he used a Rabe Rudder, tractor propellers
and incidence.
130
In 1978 I competed in the World championship placing 2nd with a score of
2954 to Bob Hunt's 2963 using my Mustang, Snaggletooth. Snaggletooth used
dihedral, shock gears, reversed bellcrank, internal muffler, incidence, sliding
block adjustable leadouts and, of course, a Rabe Rudder. All of these features
were original and had been published many years earlier in various model
magazine or web forums. Snaggletooth also won Open Stunt at the NATs in
1977, and the Walker Trophy. In 1972 and 1973, my two Sea Furys, with all of
the listed features except incidence, also won Open Stunts and another
Walker Trophy.
STUNT SHIP PROPELLERS ARE GYROSCOPES!
If you are going to move your stunt ship through the air with a propeller you
will encounter gyroscopic yaw in any maneuver that pitches the airplane.
Because our propellers are gyroscopes, they react with gyroscopic effects any
time we precess (apply force to tilt) the prop disc. When the propeller disk is
precessed in a maneuver, there will be an accompanying yaw 90 degrees later
in the direction the prop is turning. Gyroscopic effects are proportional to the
mass (weight) of the propeller and how fast it is spinning. (Wood props tend
to yaw less than carbon props because they are lighter. Higher revolutions
also precess more.) Gyroscopic yaw is also proportional to pitch rate. (Square
maneuvers yaw more than round maneuvers.)
GYROSCOPIC EFFECTS WITH NORMAL PROPELLER ROTATION
131
Our stunt ships use props weighng an ounce or two. In flight, we turn these
props around 10,000 RPM. The weight and rotation combine to make our
props effective gyroscopes . Here is a simple exercise for visualizing
gyroscopic precession (yaws) and corrections that may be applied to them.
First, stand up and visualize the propeller disk as being in front of you. Bend
forward a bit. Visualize that leaning forward is simulating a nose down pitch
with the top of the propeller disk being pressed forward as we lean forward.
Then, visualize that the propeller in front of us is turning in the normal
direction with the top of the disk moving from left to right. Follow the prop
disk direction of rotation by bending to the right from the waist. Now imagine
that your head is still pressing forward. When the propeller has rotated 90
degrees, and is pointing to our right, the head press forward becomes a head
press to the right side of the disk. This tilts the disk to the left which is
actually "inward" yaw.
"Inward" yaw happens whenever we use down elevators. It reduces line
tension, particularly in the top of the vertical eight and hourglass. If we want
to correct for the inward yaw, we would have to move a rudder to the right.
That sounds wrong, doesn't it? Actually, the right rudder is used to push the
rear end of our airplane to the left. When the tail moves left, our airplanes
are actually turning to the right. This right turn is a correction for left, or
inward turning yaw.
132
The opposite is also true. Let's imagine again that we are looking at the
propeller and leaning backward to simulate a pull on the top of the propeller
disk. Again, we follow the rotation of the propeller by leaning to the right.
When the propeller has rotated 90 degrees, and is pointing to our right we
imagine our head pulling back, simulating a pull on the right side of the
propeller disk. This tilts the propeller disk to the right which is actually
"outward" yaw.
"Outward" yaw happens whenever we use up elevators. It increases line
tension, most notably, in “inside" maneuvers below 45 where it isn't needed
much. If we want to correct for outward yaw, we have to move the rudder to
the left. Left rudder is used to push the rear end of our airplanes to the right.
When the tail moves to the right, the airplane is actually turning to the left.
Left turns are correction for right, or outward turning yaw.
If we want to correct for both gyroscopic yaws, we need something which
applies right rudder on" down" and left rudder on "up".
Our models are particularly affected by these uncorrected gyroscopic effects
when we perform square maneuvers with high pitch rates. Most modelers
seldom notice gyroscopic effects in inside maneuvers where they aren't much
needed. They typically seem OK with the excess line tension in inside
maneuvers. Line tension in outside maneuvers is noticably less, but usually
not too troublesome except when performing vertical maneuvers above 45.
For example, the first corner of a hourglass is inside which begins the near
vertical climb with good tension. Much of that tension is lost in the climb as
the airplane slows and the first, very high pitch rate, outside corner uses much
of the remaining tension. Typically, the straight leg across the top of the
maneuver has very little tension with the airplane almost in free flight. What
tension remains is hardly enough for another high rate outside corner to begin
the descending leg. The top outside half of the square eight is similarly
affected with loss of tension after the hard outside corner in the middle of the
maneuver. The vertical eight is also affected, with loss of tension above 45 but,
being a round maneuver, it's less affected than the hourglass .
If we could somehow apply left rudder on down and right rudder on up, these
corrections would add nothing to the average line tension of our airplanes.
But, it would trade a bit of unnecessary inside line tension for a bit more
welcome outside line tension. This trade is possible with reverse rotation of
the propeller. These corrections would mainly served to trim out both inside
and outside gyroscopic yaws and "clean " up yaw effects in our maneuvers.
133
Even this simple trade of yaws would make a noticable improvment in the
pattern maneuvers because part of the trade would removed some of the
gyroscopic inward yaw in outsides.
The gyroscopic loss of tension on outside maneuvers is troubling to many
stunt flyers. This prompts efforts to improve the capabilities of their
airplanes by trimming. This trimming is usually involves a combination of
rudder and engine offset, nose and tipweight, and possibly "tweeking" flaps a
bit to equalize inside and outside tension. These efforts usually help a bit but
are frequently less than fully successful.
The use of rudder offset seems to have little effect on gyroscopic yaws.
Inboard and outboard gyroscopic forces still seem to apply equally, but
centered on the offset rudder position.
Tipweight in particular has interesting properties. In general, tipweight
creates line tension by tilting the roll axis of the airplane outward when our
airplanes are both upright or inverted. Excess tipweight magnifies this effect
by causing large roll excursions in high pitch rate maneuvers. We call these
slap-like excursions "hinging." Hinging is caused by the inertia of tip weight.
Inertia causes the mass of the tip weight to resist changes in direction as the
airplane maneuvers. A square corner from level flight may be initially resisted
by the tip weight’s tendency to remain in level flight. While the tip weight is
catching up with the airplane’s new attitude, the inertial effects may cause the
bottom of the airplane to be briefly visible. Excess tipweight may also cause
the top the airplanes to be visible on outside corners. The inertial effects of
hinging also causes airplanes to yaw on both inside and outside corners, but in
these examples, the yawing is inertial, not gyroscopic.
Hinging is unsightly and can negatively affect the judge’s opinion of the
quality of square maneuvers. On the other hand, hinging may also be
beneficial in that the roll caused by an excess of tip weight is always in an
outward direction, upright or inverted, and always increases line tension.
This additional line tension from tipweight, even to the point of hinging, may
offer a measure of protection on initial flights of a new stunt ship which will
be progressively reduced as trimming progresses.
In short, hinging is an interesting effect but different from gyroscopic
precession in that it increases line tension in both inside and outside
maneuvers. Gyroscopic precessions will always have an opposite yawing
134
effect on inside and outside maneuvers. These yawing effects will also be
present and equal for reverse propeller rotation.
This article reaffirms that with normal propeller rotation, outside line tension
is lost and inside tension is gained in our maneuvers from the effects of
gyroscopic precession.

Of course there is much more as this bit of information was taken from My Al's Models 4 DVD, book 2 and book 3, and continues with differences with left prop rotation.  This is from the DVD at Book 3 page 127.  In book 2 (same DVD) there is another aircraft trimming article which begins on page 593 which contains more trimming information including more on gyroscopic precession. The Al's Models DVDs are still available.

Al
alsf8f@yahoo.com
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 12:36:12 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2018, 02:17:36 PM »
RABE RUDDERS AND REVERSE ROTATION
Recently, I’ve seen a number of comments by builders of airplanes with
reverse rotation electric motors to the effect that their airplanes trim best if
the “Rabe Rudder” is disabled. I think it is important to point out that a
“Rabe Rudder” works well to trim the gyroscopic precession as long as it is
used with normal rotating engines. Reverse rotating motors have the effect of
magnifying instead of minimizing the effect of gyroscopic precession on our
airplanes.
The Rabe Rudder is an old invention dating back nearly a half century, but
not in general use by most stunt flyers. I was glad to see that the 2012 and
2014 World Champion Igor Burger remark in his Max Bee article in the
Jan/Feb 2013 in Stunt News that he used a Rabe Rudder, tractor propellers
and incidence.
130

     I think you sort of miss the point here - if I understand it correctly, Igor is using the rudder movement primarily to counter the effects of rotating about an axis skewed from the principle axes, effectively creating products of inertia, which have to be countered somehow in order to hold the yaw angle constant (but non-zero). Your adjustment methodology system would tend to create the same situation, allowing you to choose to fly a fixed yaw offset as long as you could provide sufficient counter-acting torques. The fact that it was not your intent would not matter very much. You adjust it until it works the best, and it will end up countering these kinematic effects regardless of intent. It makes sense, because the precessional torque is TINY compared to even the slightest off-axis rotation and certainly does not require the sorts of offsets that you ended up with. The fact that you adjust it to maximize line tension and consistency of line tension is certainly at odds with trying to hold the yaw angle at zero.

   This also explains why most people who attempt to follow the directions end up grossly overdoing it. It you hold the airplane nominally tangent to the circle, the required torque is maybe 1/20th of what the typical rudder motion actually provides. In fact, precession is so tiny (and even less when you were doing it with relatively light wood props and very low RPM - compared to very heavy graphite/epoxy 3-blade props like Bollys spinning at almost twice the revs) that the usual mechanisms can't make the movement small enough. You certainly get more line tension if you let the airplane yaw at a significant angle, so if you have lots of movement and are judging it based on how much line tension you get, you will naturally end up with a lot of yaw angle.

   And of course, this also creates a lot of P-factor in *pitch*, which one might be tempted to compensate for by rigging in *down elevator* in substantial amounts - say, 2 degrees. With reverse rotation, you would still need rudder movement, and still in the same direction, but maybe not need or want the large amount of built-in down elevator, because the pitch component of p-factor would be substantial but in the other direction (nose-down instead of nose-up).

   If true, the rudder would would be necessary even if the prop had zero angular momentum (and Igor's is very low compared to typical model due to the extremely low prop moment of inertia). There are also passive methods (which I and others have attempted) to effectively skew the principle axes WRT the axes of symmetry. I think what is going on, whether anyone intended it or not, is that the method creates the capability to handle what would be considered a dynamic imbalance in a car tire.

     These effects could be easily calculated if we knew the moments of inertia of the airplane, but I don't have to have the numbers in front of me to make a good guess about trying to rotate at a high rate and acceleration about an axis skewed, say, 5 degrees, it going to create very large torques about yaw.

    Brett

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2018, 04:26:42 PM »
Lets try to make this simple.  OUR AIRPLANES YAW WHENEVER THEY ARE MANEUVERED BECAUSE OF GYROSCOPIC PRECESSION.  Without a movable rudder, they gyroscopically yaw outward on inside maneuvers  giving perhaps a noticeable increase in tension.  Without a movable rudder our airplanes gyroscopically yaw inward on outside maneuvers.  It is this inward yaw and loss of tension on outsides which causes most of our efforts to trim our stunt ships with engine offset, tipweight, leadout location and flap twisting to provide necessary outside line tension.

With a movable rudder, Its easy enough to make the rudder move slightly inward when the elevators are up to reduce unnecessary tension and move outward when the elevators are deflected downward to increase tension on outsides.  The use of a bit less rudder on insides and a bit more outward rudder on outsides is the name of the game.

It is actually just that simple but requires a bit of trimming in practice.

Actually,  As I look into the contents of Al's Models 4 DVD,  I just noticed that there is one of my earlier posts also included in this DVD.  Its a very complete tutorial in book 2, beginning on page 457,  on just how to adjust a movable rudder.  This same article was also included in in a Stuka Stunt Post and the Jan/Feb 2005 issue of Stunt News, beginning on page 47.  It includes a couple hundred words and 10 photos on the very straight forward method and explanation of just how I adjusted my own Snaggletooth Mustang.

Four years earlier there was also a very complete tutorial on adjusting a Rabe Rudder in the Nov/Dec 2001 issue of Stunt News.  This one may have also been on Stuka Stunt.

Al
l
« Last Edit: March 25, 2018, 07:51:21 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2018, 04:39:43 PM »
Lets try to make this simple.  OUR AIRPLANES YAW WHENEVER THEY ARE MANEUVERED BECAUSE OF GYROSCOPIC PRECESSION. 

   And from all the other torques generated by maneuvering, almost all of which can be much larger than precession.

    That you didn't consider the others is not a point of shame.

    Brett

Offline Trostle

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2018, 07:48:44 PM »
I have used a variation of the Rabe rudder on all of my Open stunt ships since the early 70's.  My experience with them has been consistent.  Once properly trimmed/adjusted, I never have to worry about line tension on any of the outside maneuvers, particularly the outside loops of the vertical eights, the outside corners of the hourglass, and the high outside loop of the four leaf clover.  I use a different method than Al uses to control the rudder which has been described and shown several times on this forum.  I can essentially program the position the rudder and the rate of change of the rudder position with any elevator deflection.  I will not build an Open ship without the rudder moving with the elevators.  Fortunately, the earlier Rabe Bearcat and Mustang designes can be flown in classic with the movable rudder.  It was quite effective for me on my Bearcat which served me well for over 10 years.

Keith

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2018, 09:46:05 AM »
I am a FAA certified rotorcraft-helicopter flight instructor where everything about helicopters rotates and precesses.  Flying a helicopter is roughly the same as flying an airplane.  If I want to move forward I push the control forward. A disk called a swashplate located at the hub of the rotor  applies a rotor tilting force, up on one side, down on the other.  This would cause the helicopter to roll if it weren't for gyroscopic precession which actually tilts the disk 90 degrees later in the direction the disk is rotating.  This tilts the disk downward in front and moves the helicopter forward.  Understanding gyroscopic rotation is just that easy.  One rule one result.

To make gyroscopic precession work on our stunt ships we only need to know which direction the propeller is turning and the direction we want to pitch the airplane.

It never occurs to me to wonder about, angular momentum, torques about yaw, moments of inertia or kinematic effects.   I mostly just adjust the rudder to move out on down until outside corners are smooth and tight.  Its really that easy to understand.  Certainly desirable results require a bit of trimming trial and error.

Al

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2018, 10:37:12 AM »

To make gyroscopic precession work on our stunt ships we only need to know which direction the propeller is turning and the direction we want to pitch the airplane.

It never occurs to me to wonder about, angular momentum, torques about yaw, moments of inertia or kinematic effects.   I mostly just adjust the rudder to move out on down until outside corners are smooth and tight.  Its really that easy to understand.  Certainly desirable results require a bit of trimming trial and error.

   My point is that this results in a lot more than just making up for gyroscopic precession (which is TINY compared to even a slight static yaw angle). The amount of rudder movement normally used is something like 10 times what is necessary just to compensate for precession.

     If all it was doing was compensating for precession, move about 1/16" each direction and it would give right rudder on outsides and left rudder on insides - since precession is symmetrical. If it has a neutral offset, or  is moving outboard in both insides and outsides, that means there is something else going on.   That "something else" explains Igor's apparent ability to intentionally run large static yaw angles.

    All of which suggests that if someone builds a Max Bee and wants to evaluate the way it flies, they would be very wise to build it the way it shows. I think it also means that this is likely beyond most people to deal with because, based on watching people try to trim airplanes for the last 40 years, and their typically massive failure to deal with Rabe Rudders, they should probably avoid using them unless they really know what they are doing or have a lot of help - which, no offense, the OP does not.

     Brett

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2018, 12:13:38 PM »
I don't have to have the numbers in front of me to make a good guess about trying to rotate at a high rate and acceleration about an axis skewed, say, 5 degrees, it going to create very large torques about yaw.

I see I missed many messages while I was away, but may be this info will make it easier:

I have numbers. Unfortunately I build my spread sheet far before I designed Max Bee and also before I used electric, but anyway, it does not look so bad as you wrote. The point is that we have 2 main structures. Fuselage and wing. While rotating yawed fuselage makes moment to the circle, the wing has tendency yaw out. Means they act in opposite direction and thus net moment is lower than each of them separately.

May be I have to find out those files, but I do not have it handy right now, so I can recall following numbers only from memory. They are based on Brian E. prop at 11 000 rpm as I used it with pipes on my previous model. I remember gyroscopic torque in corner (setup as I used on that particular model that time) close to 1Nm (units are not important for now).   

Yawing torque coming from mentioned rotation wing and fuselage was approximately 0.5Nm to the circle (lowering line tension). Means half of precession. Since it is the same in positive and also negative Gs (unlike precession which is out in positives and in in negatives). It makes asymmetric effect. Mean the torque in negative Gs is 1+0.5 Nm while 1-0.5 in positive Gs. Or in other words inward 3x stronger that outward. That pretty much fits Al’s observations that rudder should travel inward fraction of that necessary outside deflrctio in negative corners.

Brett, I till remember your quiz some years ago, I do not know what was the result, but you asked why rudder must travel to the left only fraction of that out. You wrote I am not allowed to answer, so I did not, but then I forgot how it ended … so I hope now I am already allowed to do so :- P  :- ))))

And now what happened with electric – we use lighter props. Means precession will do down, but we also moved lot of mass back to CG, so I am not sure how it all changed, I did not do math anymore. May be later I will invest some time and refresh it. May after flying seasoned. But I still need little inward deflection. So even if prop makes half of precession, means 0.5Nm instead of 1Nm (and it will lead to 0 inward deflection) the fuselage with battery well back makes less yawing compared to heavy engine in nose.

However larger constant yaw and lighter prop will probably really lead to smaller deflection inside. But I do not trim it “on paper”. May be someone saw markers on my model (wing tip and CG) that is perfect tool for yaw trimming. How it yaws in positives and how in negatives and how it reacts to rudder defelection. That is all what the flyer has to know. Theory and those numbers are not necessary. Not very difficult task. Yawing is very well visible and tells flier what to do with rudder and it is very straightforward. I see I will need to make some “extension” for Paul W. trimming system specific to Max Bee.  … one day :- P

And one more note. I got 2 mails regarding this. I think many people cannot imagine what is really happening here very well, I hope this video will show it perfectly :




or this extended version for those "number" guys:


« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 02:49:54 PM by Igor Burger »

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2018, 02:20:15 PM »
Yawing is very well visible and tells flier what to do with rudder and it is very straightforward.  "Igor Burger"

This is something which I have been advocating for almost a half century.

Here is a bit of specific information for persons willing to experiment a bit to improve their stunt ship's handling characteristics.

Step 1.  Make a gauge as shown on the first photo below.  Referring to a gauge is the only way that trimming experiments can be evaluated.

Step 2.   Install horns on the bottom of the outside elevator and rudder.  These aren't very critical but the elevator horn should be fairly short with the pushrod pickup well aft of the elevator hinge line.

Step 3.  Adjust the pushrod to give about as much deflection as shown on the photo below with the elevators full down. You should expect that a final outboard rudder location of a typical stunt ship would be less than appears here.  This Mustang is about a 40 size airplane with a .76 engine.

Step  4.  Make flight adjustments based on line tension and smoothness of the outside corner at the top center of the square eight.  Make recorded, progressive, changes in rudder position with each flight until best possible corner is obtained in this outside square corner. With a new airplane and a half decent engine run I can usually fly enough outside squares to get a fair placement of the outsides right rudder on the first trip to the field.

You can quit trimming now.  Fixing the outside corner is 80% of a decent trim.  The inside rudder positions begin with an excess of line tension and less sensitivity.  Its much less demanding of accuracy in adjustment.

If you've trimmed enough to locate good rudder positions for both inside and outside corners then work on determining the best position for the rudder with neutral elevators.  This would be considered our normal rudder offset. The neutral rudder position can be adjusted with modified elevator and rudder horns and still manage the measured optimum inside and outside rudder positions.  This is accomplished mostly be making new elevator horns.  Elevator horns with the pickup under the elevator hinge line will result in left and right travel of the rudder being about the same.  Elevator horns with an extreme aft location of the pushrod pickups will have a much larger difference in rudder travel on full up and down elevator positions.

In any case, for the best possible explanations and trimming information, I strongly suggest the "Rabe Rudder" article mentioned above found in the Al's Models 4 DVD or Stuka Stunt Jan/Feb 2005 issue.

Al
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 06:24:56 PM by Al Rabe »

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2018, 02:29:41 PM »
Some numbers for an electric powered plane:

In a previous thread, the gyroscopic  nose down/up  precession torque was calculated to be 0,18 Nm, at a lap time of 5,2 seconds.

Assuming the radius during a sharp corner is 3 m, the time for a lap(=loop) is 0,75 sec. Thus, the gyroscopic precession torque in-/outwards is 0,18 Nm x 5,2s/0,75s = 1,25 Nm.
For a Max Bee, the distance from CG to rudder is about 78 cm or 0,78m.
Then, the force needed at the rudder to avoid precession yaw is 1,25 Nm/ 0,78m =1,6 N, equivalent to 5,8 ounces!
IMHO this justifies the Rabe rudder.

Regards,

Wolfgang

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2018, 02:54:52 PM »
the gyroscopic precession torque in-/outwards is 0,18 Nm x 5,2s/0,75s = 1,25 Nm.

IMHO it is too high, I expect something at half or even less of that value as I wrote in my post.

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2018, 03:02:52 PM »
Hello I have used Al Rabe's rudder on 5 models now and found it easy to adjust with good results. Many thanks Al and others for the explanation of how it really works. I am not a numbers person but a try it and see sort. Only problem with hook up was my ME 109 semi scale model were rudder and elevator hinge lines coincide so I used a separate push-rod hook up connection to the rudder instead of horn on the elevator.

Regards Gerald  #^ #^ #^

Offline Wolfgang Nieuwkamp

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2018, 03:14:38 PM »
The inertial moment of Propeller+Rotor+Spinner was measured to be 0,000144 kgm^2. Motor speed used for calculation was 9900 Rev/min.
Only if the flying radius is larger than 3m, or the motor speed is lower than 9900 rev/min, the value will be less.

Regards,
Wolfgang

Offline Dee Rice

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2018, 04:12:08 PM »
Yawing is very well visible and tells flier what to do with rudder and it is very straightforward.  "Igor Burger"

This is something which I have been advocating for almost a half century.

Here is a bit of specific information for persons willing to experiment a bit to improve their stunt ship's handling characteristics.

Step 1.  Make a gauge as shown on the first photo below.  Referring to a gauge is the only way that trimming experiments can be evaluated.

Step 2.   Install horns on the bottom of the outside elevator and rudder.  These aren't very critical but the elevator horn should be fairly short with the pushrod pickup well aft of the elevator hinge line.

Step 3.  Adjust the pushrod to give about as much deflection as shown on the photo below with the elevators full down. You should expect that a final outboard rudder location of a typical stunt ship would be less than appears here.  This Mustang is about a 40 size airplane with a .76 engine.

Step  4.  Make flight adjustments based on line tension and smoothness of the outside corner at the top center of the square eight.  Make recorded, progressive, changes in rudder position with each flight until best possible corner is obtained in this outside square corner.

You can quit trimming now.  Fixing the outside corner is 80% of a decent trim.  The inside rudder positions begin with an excess of line tension and less sensitivity.  Its much less demanding of accuracy in adjustment.

If you demand the absolute optimum rudder trim you can then determine the best position for the rudder with neutral elevators.  This would be considered our normal rudder offset.   When both left and right rudder positions on full up and down have been determined with accurate measurements it is possible to make an ultimate adjustment.  The ultimate rudder position is made using neutral elevators.  The neutral elevator position  can be adjusted with modified elevator and rudder horns and still manage the measured optimum inside and outside rudder positions.  This is accomplished mostly be making new elevator horns.  Elevator horns with the pickup under the elevator hinge line will result in left and right travel of the rudder being about the same.  Elevator horns with an extreme aft location of the pushrod pickups will have a much larger difference in rudder travel on full up and down elevator positions.

In any case, for the best possible explanations and trimming information, I strongly suggest the "Rabe Rudder" article mentioned above found in the Al's Models DVD or Stuka Stunt Jan/Feb 2005 issue.

Al

Hey Al...............just a little blast from the past.............trivia question for the old guys.............What was the first stunt ship you put the Rabe Rudder on?     I bet no one can guess.    Dee Rice      :-)   



Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2018, 04:15:59 PM »
The videos Igor posted are really cool.  For conventional stunt planes, the yaw axis is the principal axis with maximum moment of inertia, and the roll axis is the one with minimum moment of inertia.  The intermediate principal axis is near the axis the airplane rotates around during maneuvers.  The difference in those two axes needs to be accounted for in trimming the airplane.  If lots of the airplane mass is along the wing, the pitch axis would probably have the minimum moment of inertia.  A scale model B-17 might make a good stunt plane.
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2018, 05:03:05 PM »
Hey Al...............just a little blast from the past.............trivia question for the old guys.............What was the first stunt ship you put the Rabe Rudder on?     I bet no one can guess.    Dee Rice      :-)   

I do not know for sure what airplane Al first used his rudder idea.  I am almost certain that the first airplane that was published using this Rabe rudder thing was his P-51 in the June 1969 issue of American Aircraft Modeler.  I saw it on his red and white Cavalier Mustang at the Olathe Nats (Al's first Nats) in 1968.  That was the first time I met Al and I got to fly that airplane.  Needless to say, I was impressed.  Al did well at that Nats by qualifying in the top five in one of the two circles that were used.  In the first round of the finals, he was sitting in 4th place when the finals were terminated because of darkness and the judges quit.  (A long story.  The finals were scheduled to be flown on the same day as the qualifications.  Al had to leave because of his schedule as a pilot for the airlines which prevented him from flying the finals round which was re-initiated the next day with a different set of judges.)

Keith

Offline Al Rabe

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2018, 06:39:18 PM »
Hey Al...............just a little blast from the past.............trivia question for the old guys.............What was the first stunt ship you put the Rabe Rudder on?     I bet no one can guess.    Dee Rice      :-)   

Dee, I know that you are just busting to relate that the first moving rudder was installed on a Dee Rice designed Oriental.  And, of course, it was.

Al


Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2018, 09:19:25 PM »
The videos Igor posted are really cool.  For conventional stunt planes, the yaw axis is the principal axis with maximum moment of inertia, and the roll axis is the one with minimum moment of inertia.  The intermediate principal axis is near the axis the airplane rotates around during maneuvers.  The difference in those two axes needs to be accounted for in trimming the airplane.

   It's particularly important to know when you are trying to rotate around and axis that is displaced 5 degrees from the principle axes!

    Brett

     

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2018, 09:49:12 PM »

(snip)

...If I had to choose between adjustable LO guide OR adjustable rudder, I will certainly choose rudder and fixed LO guide.

Hi Igor,

Are you of the opinion that fore and aft location of the leadout exit relative to the CG is of no importance as long as the "adjustable" rudder is installed...and properly adjusted?

Do you have any opinions as to the impact of P-factor on yaw with respect to the pitch axis of a stunt ship?  Especially given the very significant thrust to weight factor of a competitive aircraft?

Ted


Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2018, 12:45:33 AM »
Are you of the opinion that fore and aft location of the leadout exit relative to the CG is of no importance as long as the "adjustable" rudder is installed...and properly adjusted?

I am not sure what you mean, so there are 2 answers

1/ LO position relative to CG on model. I mean I can easily "decide" how far I can fix LO in wing tip. It is base on hypothesis that model can be sucessfully trimmed if it is in some usefull range. I tried it it at 1" 2" or even 3". That hypothesis has one small weak point, so it is not 100% bullet proof and fails in one small point, but it is last 0.1% of ultimate trim :- )))

2/ LO position in air. It means how model hangs on lines. For that I can use rudder instead of line rake. And that was my point, it is easier and clearer how to trim model position with rudder. Especially when fuselage does not have its own stability thanks large rudder. In that case moving LO forward or backward does not change its position relative to GC in air. 


Do you have any opinions as to the impact of P-factor on yaw with respect to the pitch axis of a stunt ship?  Especially given the very significant thrust to weight factor of a competitive aircraft?

Yes, good point, that is next yawing moment comming to formula. It acts just like precession, so practically trimmed out with RR. Speaking about Max Bee, which has nose length designed to keep AoA at prop position close to 0 it does not make any visible effect, so it does not have influence to those my numbers above. Shorter nose will have it stronger.

Offline Curare

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2018, 04:08:09 AM »
Hi Igor,

Are you of the opinion that fore and aft location of the leadout exit relative to the CG is of no importance as long as the "adjustable" rudder is installed...and properly adjusted?

Do you have any opinions as to the impact of P-factor on yaw with respect to the pitch axis of a stunt ship?  Especially given the very significant thrust to weight factor of a competitive aircraft?

Ted

Ted you had me looking up P factor, as I couldn't quite remember from my BAK what it was, very interesting. I guess it stands to reason that P factor becomes a 'larger' problem with a bigger propeller as it would move the effective centre of thrust even further off the aircraft centreline , and given the rates of AoA a stunt ship experiences through a corner I assume this is a decent off axis force! You guys, always making me think! I love it!


Addenda: would it be feasible to determine which is the larger effective force, procession or P factor by simply exhanging a large prop producting X thrust at X speed to another prop, significantly smaller, producing the same thurst at the same aircraft speed, but at a higher rpm?  With electric motors available in whatever KV rating you like, this is certainly doable.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2018, 11:28:51 AM »
Hi Igor,

Are you of the opinion that fore and aft location of the leadout exit relative to the CG is of no importance as long as the "adjustable" rudder is installed...and properly adjusted?


      I am not sure what Igor means, precisely, but the torque you can potentially generate with the line sweep and line tension is far and away the largest torque possible in the yaw axis, much larger than that available from the rudder, even at very large offsets. So it has to be important to the problem. What you cannot tolerate is the two largest torque sources acting in opposition in steady-state conditions, because as soon as that changes, one or the other drives you off in yaw.

    Brett

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2018, 12:00:53 PM »
What you cannot tolerate is the two largest torque sources acting in opposition in steady-state conditions, because as soon as that changes, one or the other drives you off in yaw.

Exactly, and that is reason why you must eliminate forces changing independently. We have 3 of them CG and its torqu comming from its position relative to the LO (actually we have also motor offset, but let it be for now), lines drag comming from air speed yawing in and rudder force also comming from air speed yawing out. So my way is to eliminate CG torque, because it is changing due to gravity (different line tension overhead and in level by 1G) and put the rudder force againts the line drag because they changes with air speed 1:1. I wrote it many years ago on Stuka as answer to Teds thread "Bellcranks and CGs redux". That thread in SSW has gone (or at least pictures) but it was reincarnated here on SH:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/engineering-board/leadout-position-for-overhead-fuselage-tangency/msg116287/#msg116287



Online Vitalis Pilkionis

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2018, 04:27:51 PM »
But I do not trim it “on paper”. May be someone saw markers on my model (wing tip and CG) that is perfect tool for yaw trimming. How it yaws in positives and how in negatives and how it reacts to rudder defelection. That is all what the flyer has to know. Theory and those numbers are not necessary. Not very difficult task. Yawing is very well visible and tells flier what to do with rudder and it is very straightforward.

Well, after reading all this material, I decided to retrim my model. The goal is to achive constant yaw at any positions of a model - upwind, downwind, at level flight and overhead. I put on bright color strips on model at CG and LO positions. I disconnected rudder from elevator, still leaving it adjustable and turned off active regulation on a timer. I also readjusted LO position to 1" behind a CG (as per Igor's recommendation).
And so.. the most obvious thing I observed at test flights is that model yaws outward at the upwind side of a circle, and yaws inward at the downwind side. If I understand correctly this happens because of a poorly balanced side area of a fuselage - it acts like a weathercock trying to turn fuselage into a wind. In the past I would say this is good behaviour, because that makes line tension more balanced around the circle. But this time I was left in a mess, because that makes further trimming very difficult or even impossible (at least with my current experience).
What way should I follow next? Should I reduce an aft area of a fuselage, thus making model less sensitive to a sidewind?

Thanks,
Vitalis

Offline Trostle

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2018, 06:07:36 PM »
I think the amount of yaw displayed by the model as it goes around the circle is a function of line drag.  The line shape from the handle to airplane is close to a catenary curve.  The lines are almost straight from the handle to about one third of the distance to the model.  It is possible to sight down that portion of the lines to see a point on the side of the fuselage.   That position changes with respect to position on the circle relative to the wind.  It is an interesting thing to watch.

Keith

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: Rabe Rudder - necessity or just another gizmo from the past
« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2018, 10:54:55 PM »
Well, after reading all this material, I decided to retrim my model. The goal is to achive constant yaw at any positions of a model - upwind, downwind, at level flight and overhead. I put on bright color strips on model at CG and LO positions. I disconnected rudder from elevator, still leaving it adjustable and turned off active regulation on a timer. I also readjusted LO position to 1" behind a CG (as per Igor's recommendation).
And so.. the most obvious thing I observed at test flights is that model yaws outward at the upwind side of a circle, and yaws inward at the downwind side. If I understand correctly this happens because of a poorly balanced side area of a fuselage - it acts like a weathercock trying to turn fuselage into a wind. In the past I would say this is good behaviour, because that makes line tension more balanced around the circle. But this time I was left in a mess, because that makes further trimming very difficult or even impossible (at least with my current experience).
What way should I follow next? Should I reduce an aft area of a fuselage, thus making model less sensitive to a sidewind?

Thanks,
Vitalis

Yes  ;D

... ok little longer - now you see reason for MaxBee fuselage shape and how necessary is nose size, some people installed fins on nose to make its side area larger. Also too tall rudder will be better to be smaller. Also higher (larger vertically) hole for cooling air has its effect, as it doubles area of fuselage sides.

And no it is not good thing if model changes its angle, may be it can make line pull little less sensitive to wind, but you keep handle in so you know line pull, but you do not know fuselage yaw and we know that different line position relative to CG has huge effect, and you do not know it before corner especially in turbullent air. So it is better to be sure about its position and compensate by hand only line pull.


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